Were U boats ever givin a Chance to Surrender?

[Packerton]

If a U boat surfaced in Real life with a white flag or something comeing out of the hatch were they fired upon or what?

[Crimguy]

If a U boat surfaced in Real life with a white flag or something comeing out of the hatch were they fired upon or what?

If it happened that way, they'd probably be ok. There are various accounts of surrendering, with varying success. Those situations are dicey for the DD crew. There are accounts of crewmen in the water, having abandoned their sinking boat. Meanwhile, a DD continues to depth charget the boat, resulting in crewmen flying through the air from the explosion. There are accounts of uboat crews getting mowed down by gunfire. There are also accounts of the crew getting off ok (Kretchmer's boat is a good example).

It's that way in war, apparently. Sometimes you intend to give up and the opposing side doesn't believe you.:up:

[GoldenRivet]

there is a brutal account of the engagement and sinking of U-85 by the USS Roper off he east coast of the USA in Homer H. Hickman's book "U-boat war off America's East Coast, 1942 TORPEDO JUNCTION" a great read!

In this particular event, U-85 was attacked while submerged and then she surfaced in the shallow waters to surrender the U-boat. the Roper let loose on the U-boat with all of her guns. Amidst the chattering 50 caliber machine guns impacting the U-boat and the water around her the u-boat crew climbed out of the conning tower and dove into the water in all directions. eventually, with men still on board the sub it sank beneath the surface. The commanding officer of the Roper thought this a ploy by a clever U-boat commander to ditch some of his crew... gain the upper hand while the Roper collected survivors and then fire a torpedo at the Roper and collect his crew when the smoke cleared. when in fact the boat had begun to sink with u-boat men floating in the water pleading for rescue...

"If there had been confusion and hesitation on the bridge of the Roperat the start of the engagement, there was now nothing but calmness and clarity of purpose. The roper's soundman had placed the submerged target. At just the proper interval the order was given and eleven depth charges rolled off the stern of the Roper. They were set for 100 feet. The roper continued the attack. The German crew, bobbing in the destroyer's furious wake, saw the depth charges drop into their midst and began to scream.
The exploding charges were felt on the Roper. WHUMP! The old ship trembled. WHUMP! WHUMP! WHUMP! Ten more times the ocean lit up in a foaming white circle of death that suddenly contracted and sent up a geyser of tremendous force. The Roper turned to make another attack, but the soundman noted no more sonar returns. The German sailors in the water werent yelling anymore either."

Further down the text recovering the Germans from the water proceeds...

"Dr. Johnsonm with two crewman, set forth into a nightmarish scene. Dozens of German U-Boat crewman were floating in the oily water, their arms and legs spread eagle, stomachs pushed in, eyes clotted with blood, pink froth running from their mouths. Dr. Johnson and the crewmen grimly began to pullthe bodies aboard, most of them still wearing their escape lungs. He expected to find some of the Germans alive at first, but then he realized they were all going to be dead. Just as with the Jacob Jones' crewmen, the internal organs of the crew of the U-Boat had been ruptured when the Roper's depth charges had gone off beneath them."

As you can see from that text, abandoning a U-boat in almost every case was done amidst heavy gun fire. Surface next to a DD or two and see what greets you. a wall of heavy 20MM, 50 Cal and cannon fire will splash all around your U-boat in SH3... no imagine trying to climb out of the conning tower and dive into the water amidst all of that relentless fire. Some will escape injury, others wont... surrender at sea for a U-boat went almost universally bad. And if you were to attempt it, the above would likely be your final obstacle before surrender.

in short - yes u-boats could surrender, but in almost every case this was how it went.

also why i think floating allied survivors are so tactically important the allied DDs would not have dropped depth charges into the water within a certain proximity of the survivors for the risk of killing them all.

[Pablo]

Hi!

Destroyers would open fire on a surfacing U-boat in the event the U-boat decided to fight it out on the surface: a surfaced U-boat was every bit as capable of firing torpedoes as one submerged, and the escorts weren't going to take any chances.

"Cease firing" was ordered as they saw the crew abandoning ship, but the gunfire usually took a few seconds to finally stop. Once it became clear the U-boat was surrendering and the shooting had stopped, the escorts would attempt to rescue as many crewman as the tactical situation allowed.

Pablo

[P_Funk]

I know a fair bit baout Kretschmer's surrender since I read the auto-biographical history of the war for the skipper who captured him. What I can tell of the man who commanded the DD group was that he was an intelligent and experienced commander. He wasn't out for blood. So he could tell when a u-boat was sinking and when they were surrendering. Not to mention the fact that he had a very good ASDIC operator that wouldn't make a mistake of thinking a sinking u-boat was a diving one.

So really the cases of commanders depth charging crew in the waters likely comes from inexperience and overzealousy. Especially, I would think, with American commanders who were drastically underexperienced compared to British ones since America was laughable at first in their ASW department.

[Pablo]

there is a brutal account of the engagement and sinking of U-85 by the USS Roper off he east coast of the USA in Homer H. Hickman's book "U-boat war off America's East Coast, 1942 TORPEDO JUNCTION" a great read!

In this particular event, U-85 was attacked while submerged and then she surfaced in the shallow waters to surrender the U-boat. Hi!

According to Clay Blair (Hitler's U-boat War: The Hunters), U-85 was on the surface the whole time until she was scuttled, and had fired a torpedo at the destroyer just before abandoning ship (p. 542).

Just after midnight, April 14 [1942], while southbound off Bodie Island, Roper got a radar contact at 2,700 yards...The radar contact was U-85. Trapped by a destroyer in water only 100 feet deep, Greger [the U-boat commander] had two choices: to dive and possibly be pounded to pieces by depth charges, or to run at full speed on the surface to deep water....Greger chose to run...but he did not know the destroyer had radar.

Chasing at 20 knots, Roper gradually overhauled U-85. In a last but futile effort to rid himself of the pursuer, Greger fired his stern tube at 700 yards. The torpedo missed, running close down Roper's port side. When Roper closed to 300 yards, and appeared to be coming in to ram, Greger gave the order to scuttle and abandon ship. To facilitate this final, depserate act and get out of Roper's way, Greger abruptly turned hard to starboard.

When U-85 turned, Roper switched on her 24" searchlight and opened fire at point blank range. Seeing the Germans running on deck to abandon ship, the excited Americans, they said later, concluded they had come up to man U-85's deck gun to shoot it out....
Pablo

[GoldenRivet]

Not to mention they were inexperienced because almost the entire atlantic fleet had been sent to the pacific ocean.

I think elsewhere in books i have read they point out that there were only a hand full of coast guard cutters and airplanes available in early 1942 to defend the east coast.

[GoldenRivet]

there is a brutal account of the engagement and sinking of U-85 by the USS Roper off he east coast of the USA in Homer H. Hickman's book "U-boat war off America's East Coast, 1942 TORPEDO JUNCTION" a great read!

In this particular event, U-85 was attacked while submerged and then she surfaced in the shallow waters to surrender the U-boat. Hi!

According to Clay Blair (Hitler's U-boat War: The Hunters), U-85 was on the surface the whole time until she was scuttled, and had fired a torpedo at the destroyer just before abandoning ship (p. 542).

Just after midnight, April 14 [1942], while southbound off Bodie Island, Roper got a radar contact at 2,700 yards...The radar contact was U-85. Trapped by a destroyer in water only 100 feet deep, Greger [the U-boat commander] had two choices: to dive and possibly be pounded to pieces by depth charges, or to run at full speed on the surface to depe water....Greger chose to run...but he did not know the destroyer had radar.

Chasing at 20 knots, Roper gradually overhauled U-85. In a last but futile effort to rid himself of the pursuer, Greger fired his stern tube at 700 yards. The torpedo missed, running close down Roper's port side. When Roper closed to 300 yards, and appeared to be coming in to ram, Greger gave the order to scuttle and abandon ship. To facilitate this final, depserate act and get out of Roper's way, Greger abruptly turned hard to starboard.

When U-85 turned, Roper switched on her 24" searchlight and opened fire at point blank range. Seeing the Germans running on deck to abandon ship, the excided Americans, they said later, concluded they had come up to man U-85's deck gun to shoot it out....
Pablo

Pablo, you are correct... i did not read the full text before quoting it as i was in a hurry to reply, but they were on the surface throughout the engagement until they decided to jump ship and it sank.

[P_Funk]

Not to mention they were inexperienced because almost the entire atlantic fleet had been sent to the pacific ocean.

I think elsewhere in books i have read they point out that there were only a hand full of coast guard cutters and airplanes available in early 1942 to defend the east coast.
And worst of all the American top brass refused to listen to the advice of the British brass on how to go about ASW. They did the same stuff the Brits did in 39/40: DD patrols to random places, sending a DD to chase after U-boat sightings, not actually moving ships in convoy.

They learned the hard way. Ego.

[tenakha]

do not forget that flying a white flag has never been a sign of surrender, it is a protective sign of truce or ceasefire, contrary to striking the colors. As U-boats didn't fly theirs colors there was never signs of surrender except for the crew abandoning ship.

for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striking_the_colors

[joea]

Not to mention they were inexperienced because almost the entire atlantic fleet had been sent to the pacific ocean.

I think elsewhere in books i have read they point out that there were only a hand full of coast guard cutters and airplanes available in early 1942 to defend the east coast.
And worst of all the American top brass refused to listen to the advice of the British brass on how to go about ASW. They did the same stuff the Brits did in 39/40: DD patrols to random places, sending a DD to chase after U-boat sightings, not actually moving ships in convoy.

They learned the hard way. Ego.

Yes indeed, and many merchant sailors paid the price. :nope: I alos read how many USN sailors were amazed at how many depth charges British and Canadian vessels would load up in port before going out to join their convoys.

[P_Funk]

I alos read how many USN sailors were amazed at how many depth charges British and Canadian vessels would load up in port before going out to join their convoys.
Indeed. It isn't marksmanship hunting u-boats. Its more like firing grapeshot at a small bird dancing around you through a fog at twice the distance you can aim properly.:|\\

[Jimbuna]

Don't forget the Admiralty gave orders that any boarding party had to shoot any sub crew they caught trying to scuttle a U-boat or destroy ciphers etc. :yep: