mk27 slightly destroying gameplay experience...

[kv29]

have you tried mk27 torpedoes? they are equipped with a passive sonar device that allows them to home on everything which makes noise, even you!

though they are quite slow compared to other torpedoes, they are so easy to use on closing dds (or other targets) that it somehow ruins the experience of manual targeting. when a dd is closing on you, all you have to do is remain completely straight to the dd bearing, and fire away the little bugger. even when the mk27 turning ratio is quite low, unless you try to make them to turn on a dime, it will hit the target for sure.

dds are stunningly stupid too, they SHOULD hear through their passive sonar that a torpedo is closing in, but they do nothing to prevent that.:damn: :damn:


mk27s did exist late in the war, so is not an unrealistic option. But, as realistic as they might be, I prefet not to play with them.

[SteamWake]

I dont see how they are "ruining" your game experience. As you said no one forces you to use them.

Also a DD steaming at flank cant hear a damn thing plus they cant exactly turn on a dime either.

[kv29]

The dds I mentioned were not coming flank speed, but around 10knots or so (I suppose they saw something, like my periscope, and came to investigate a bit). What is the speed threshold where they can or can´t hear a "damn thing"?

I know its my choice not to play with them, never said is was obligatory to do either. What Im saying is that it seems mk27 have no dud parameters at all, I sank 2 dds and rendered useless another one in a row with little or no effort.

[tater]

The hardcore torpedo mod might change their failure rate. You mightn want to look at it. Go to the end of the thread, jace added a new version that fixes a problem with the original.

[SteamWake]

The dds I mentioned were not coming flank speed, but around 10knots or so (I suppose they saw something, like my periscope, and came to investigate a bit). What is the speed threshold where they can or can´t hear a "damn thing"?

I know its my choice not to play with them, never said is was obligatory to do either. What Im saying is that it seems mk27 have no dud parameters at all, I sank 2 dds and rendered useless another one in a row with little or no effort.

I have no idea what the "threshold" is a modder could probably tell you. 10 knots is a pretty good clip though.

27's were a bit more reliable than the 14's ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Towards the end of the war failure rate was reduced quite a bit.

Around noon, another frigate appeared, apparently a reinforcement which had been called in. Continuing her aggressive action, Torsk fired a Mark 28 torpedo at the frigate which had already detected the submarine's presence. Commander Lewellen then initiated deep submergence procedures and ordered the crew to rig for silent running. After a tense five minutes, she reached 400 feet and there she launched another torpedo, this time the new acoustic Mark 27. Almost immediately, a loud explosion announced that the first torpedo had found its mark, and a minute later a second explosion sounded, followed by strong breaking up noises. The secret new torpedoes had proven their worth in battle and Torsk was credited, not only with two enemy warships, but also with sinking the last Japanese warship sunk in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).

These homing torps were just point and shoot. Generally they would work up a solution with the TDC as if it was a regular torp. If solution was bad the homing device would handle the rest. I do not see a bad game experience with these torpedoes.

[SteamWake]

she reached 400 feet and there she launched another torpedo,.

Woah... uhh what ? Fired a torpedo at 400 feet ?

Maybe its true but my game bitches at me if I try to adjust the settings on a tube below periscope depth "To deep to launch torpedos sir !". Duh... I just want you to adjust the speed not launch the damn thing.

[tater]

Yeah, the too deep nonsense is bad. Early war a problem was that many skippers followed prewar doctrine and made sonar attacks from deep. Not only could US subs fire from deep, that was their doctrine until they realized it didn't work.

[SteamWake]

Yeah, the too deep nonsense is bad. Early war a problem was that many skippers followed prewar doctrine and made sonar attacks from deep. Not only could US subs fire from deep, that was their doctrine until they realized it didn't work.

I have never tried launching a torp while submerged... Can it be done ?

[vatek]

It's not unbalancing or "ruining the experience" so much as a technological advancement...the whole point of using them is that even if your targeting solution was off, the torpedo would correct for it.

The Mk27s were designed as an anti-escort torpedo. Keep in mind that they were also designed to be quiet-running, and they used a swim-out mode when launched as opposed to standard compressed air. They would be MUCH harder for a destroyer to detect. It's no surprise that they make easy meat out of DD escorts, because that's what they were historically designed to do. I believe the success rate was around 33% (24 escorts destroyed and 9 damaged) for a total of 106 Mk27s fired. Instead of having to launch a salvo of four to six (depending on the sub) torpedos at different spread angles and praying that the DD maneuvers into one, you could launch one torpedo that would seek out the target.

The torpedo still had to be plotted so that it would get NEAR the target, but once it got into acoustic homing range, the torpedo did the rest. Instead of missing a fast-moving DD because you got the spread angle 1 degree off, or because it turned out of the path at the last second, the torpedo would alter its course during the last legs of its path.

Maybe the game does it differently, but historically they were far from "fire and forget" weapons that you just had to point in the general direction of a ship. You still had to plot a good enough solution to get the torpedo close to the target.

I enjoy having them because it gives you other options than running away and hiding if a DD escort detects you, and you can't get a perfect solution because the target is maneuvering all over the place.

[SteamWake]

I guess I should have been a little clearer.

I dont consider periscope depth as "submerged" altough it technically is.

I meant deeper than periscope depth.

[AVGWarhawk]

she reached 400 feet and there she launched another torpedo,.
Woah... uhh what ? Fired a torpedo at 400 feet ?

Maybe its true but my game bitches at me if I try to adjust the settings on a tube below periscope depth "To deep to launch torpedos sir !". Duh... I just want you to adjust the speed not launch the damn thing.

USS Torsk was a Tench class. Commissioned in 1944. I blinked an eye when I saw 400 feet also. I will dig into this further. As far as 400 foot depth, no problem in the Tench. Sending out a torpedo at this depth:hmm:. Might be a problem.

[vatek]

I would think it would be damn near impossible to successfully engage anything other than a stationary target with a deep-launched torpedo, with WW2 era equipment. The acoustic torpedos improved the odds somewhat, but I would not expect a deep launch with a Mk14, for example, to achieve any reasonable chance of success.

I was under the impression that sub-to-sub combat was virtually impossible in World War 2 because they did not have a means of getting a targeting solution at anything under periscope depth.

Also, wouldn't opening the tube doors at 400 feet be a bad thing? I'm not sure if torpedos have a recorded crush depth, but I would think that the interior of a tube would be much more susceptible to the pressure.

[SteamWake]

I would think it would be damn near impossible to successfully engage anything other than a stationary target with a deep-launched torpedo, with WW2 era equipment. The acoustic torpedos improved the odds somewhat, but I would not expect a deep launch with a Mk14, for example, to achieve any reasonable chance of success.

I was under the impression that sub-to-sub combat was virtually impossible in World War 2 because they did not have a means of getting a targeting solution at anything under periscope depth.

Also, wouldn't opening the tube doors at 400 feet be a bad thing? I'm not sure if torpedos have a recorded crush depth, but I would think that the interior of a tube would be much more susceptible to the pressure.

From an engineering perspective a tube can take pressure on the inside pressing out a hellua lot better than the outside pressing in... But a breech would be disasterious.

Wait a minute... isint a sub basically a tube ? :rotfl:

[tater]

I didn' say they hit anything, they didn't. But it was USN doctrine before the war to execute a deep, slow, sonar approach and fire. That was with early fleet boats. They executed such attacks... maybe a few would have worked with better fish, dunno.

tater

[vatek]

I have apparently been sunk by my lack of engineering knowledge. Well played, sir. :p

[LukeFF]

Maybe its true but my game bitches at me if I try to adjust the settings on a tube below periscope depth "To deep to launch torpedos sir !". Duh... I just want you to adjust the speed not launch the damn thing.
The NSS_ CFG files (in /data/submarine) allow you to adjust the maximum depth at which torpedoes can be launched. The line you're looking for is TorpLaunchMaxDepth.

[SteamWake]

I have apparently been sunk by my lack of engineering knowledge. Well played, sir. :p

Like a man that can take a joke :cool:

Good for you ! :up:

[TheSatyr]

Also take into consideration that there weren't very many "Cuties" available. Subs generally only had one or two on board. They were only to be used in "emergency" situations.

And I don't think Cuties were very fast so a DD going at full speed might be able to outrun them...if they know it's coming. (A DE might not be fast enough to get away...but a DD doing 35 Knts could possibly do it.).

The Tirante (another Tench) used a Cutie when she was boxed in by escorts. She damaged an escort with one and in the ensuing confusion managed to give the remaining escorts the slip. She may actually have been the first sub to use a Cutie.

[SteamWake]

Also take into consideration that there weren't very many "Cuties" available. Subs generally only had one or two on board. They were only to be used in "emergency" situations.

And I don't think Cuties were very fast so a DD going at full speed might be able to outrun them...if they know it's coming. (A DE might not be fast enough to get away...but a DD doing 35 Knts could possibly do it.).

The Tirante (another Tench) used a Cutie when she was boxed in by escorts. She damaged an escort with one and in the ensuing confusion managed to give the remaining escorts the slip. She may actually have been the first sub to use a Cutie.

Most DD's Ive seen were steaming towards me... not running away at 35kts. But yea they could probably out run a torp in the right situation.

[pythos]

To the skipper upset about the reality being ruined. Don't play a subsim of modern Nuclear subs. Basically once a target is found, most everything is automatic once the torp is out of the tube.

You think the MK27 makes it too easy? The torps on modern subs would make you cry from boredom. Sure they have to still plot solutions, but not to hit, they just need to get into the area of the target, the torp does the rest.

Submarine warfare started drastically changing near the end of the war, the MK27 and type 4es of the kriegsmarine were just the begining.

Nowadays it is findin the target (usually another submarine) that is the hardest part.

[CaptainHaplo]

As for launching "deep" - it was possible then, and possible now. The issue was and currently still is (until the water ram system is perfected) that a torp is fired using high pressure air - and so the deeper you go - the more air pressure (and thus actual air) you need to get the bugger out the tube. WW2 subs had alot less reserve air than a modern nuke boat - they are allowed to fire from 500+ feet as needed - although deeper is frowned upon. 2-3 hundred is preferable as modern torps can then dive to a preset depth. WW2 boats had little "reserve" air - so once the sonar approach (which was made around 100 feet) went by the wayside, it was VERY rare for a torp to be launched deep.

[nattydread]

From what I understand, the torp would home toward the screws, causing the fish to follow a lag pursuit and that shots fired with a small AoB from the target may have had problems acquiring a good contact. I assume hull noise and such was sufficient if the target was moving at high speeds.

I would expect the majority of hits would be stern hits, great for disabling ships if the the damage model has the fidelity for it(If yet to see any stern shots cripple a ship).

If you get too many amidship hits, I'd question the fidelity of the tracking model. Its likly working more like a active ping fish than a passive or just a over-simplified ship-seeking fish instead of a true passive sonar tracking fish(an oversight from previous SH versions).

[WernerSobe]

how is it ruining the gameplay. its realistic.

its the way how it works. you dont need a firing solution. If you want to add more realism you can perform a realistic firing procedure for acoustic homing torpedoes which means

1. firing only one accoustic torpedoe at once
2. only in deep water
3. diving fast below 150 feet after release and full stop

[AVGWarhawk]

As for launching "deep" - it was possible then, and possible now. The issue was and currently still is (until the water ram system is perfected) that a torp is fired using high pressure air - and so the deeper you go - the more air pressure (and thus actual air) you need to get the bugger out the tube. WW2 subs had alot less reserve air than a modern nuke boat - they are allowed to fire from 500+ feet as needed - although deeper is frowned upon. 2-3 hundred is preferable as modern torps can then dive to a preset depth. WW2 boats had little "reserve" air - so once the sonar approach (which was made around 100 feet) went by the wayside, it was VERY rare for a torp to be launched deep.

Air was not always used. Specifically for the electrics. The electrics would swim out of the tube because the diameter was much smaller than the steamers. The cutie was electric? Not sure. Have to check this out. With that said, deep submerged launch with electric could be done without worry of air charge to launch.

[kv29]

To the skipper upset about the reality being ruined. Don't play a subsim of modern Nuclear subs. Basically once a target is found, most everything is automatic once the torp is out of the tube.

You think the MK27 makes it too easy? The torps on modern subs would make you cry from boredom. Sure they have to still plot solutions, but not to hit, they just need to get into the area of the target, the torp does the rest.

Submarine warfare started drastically changing near the end of the war, the MK27 and type 4es of the kriegsmarine were just the begining.

Nowadays it is findin the target (usually another submarine) that is the hardest part.

thats what I meant. :up:

having revisited the mk27, they are not perfect as I thought. this time missed 2 of them from a 60° angle at 2000 meters (they really can´t turn on a dime). Also another 2 made little damage to a big merchant, but proved deadly against dds with their 43 kg warhead?

[SteamWake]

To the skipper upset about the reality being ruined. Don't play a subsim of modern Nuclear subs. Basically once a target is found, most everything is automatic once the torp is out of the tube.

You think the MK27 makes it too easy? The torps on modern subs would make you cry from boredom. Sure they have to still plot solutions, but not to hit, they just need to get into the area of the target, the torp does the rest.

Submarine warfare started drastically changing near the end of the war, the MK27 and type 4es of the kriegsmarine were just the begining.

Nowadays it is findin the target (usually another submarine) that is the hardest part.

thats what I meant. :up:

having revisited the mk27, they are not perfect as I thought. this time missed 2 of them from a 60° angle at 2000 meters (they really can´t turn on a dime). Also another 2 made little damage to a big merchant, but proved deadly against dds with their 43 kg warhead?

Might want to check out the "Die Slowly" mod.

[GT182]

Is sonar fixed suffiently by a mod in SH4 to coordinate a deep launch to hit anything with a Mk27?

Or, do we need to wait and see what happens with Patch 1.3 fixing sonar to make this possible?

I haven't tried to use sonar and haven't seen if a mod is available. Only played around with quick missions so far. From what I've seen so far sonar isn't working as it should.

[nomdeplume]

I just got to try out the cuties, and found them completely useless. In both cases, the destroyer was circling above me (or at least, above where it thought I was ;)) while the cutie merrily followed it, never quite catching it. Eventually its battery ran out and died.

I watched this with the external camera, and I definitely got the impression that the DD was deliberately speeding up to put more distance between it and the torpedo. I also heard its alert alarm played a few times; but I'm not sure if that was because of the torp or something else. It might also be that the DDs naturally circle at an average of just over 12 knots, keeping them out of the reach of the cuties.

I'm playing with the Trigger Maru mod if that makes a difference. Likely it does, as all of the enemies are very much on the ball with the mod. It seems I can't even sneak up on lone merchants at 40m depth without them detecting me, somehow. :down:

Pretty disappointing. The Germans had much better torpedos! It didn't help that I failed to sink the two freighters I targeted in the convoy as well, despite scoring two hits on both.

[GTHammer]

http://www.bergall.org/cutie.html

Cutie stats...max speed is 12 kts over 5,000 yards. Always would like to give credit to SteamWake as he found this link, I just stole it from one of his posts in an earlier thread. :up:

[LukeFF]

Pretty disappointing. The Germans had much better torpedos!

The likes of Gunther Prien and Karl Doenitz would beg to differ with you on that point.

[crapgame]

I don't know what I've been doing wrong, I've only hit one ship with a MK 27 and not the one I was aiming at. Luckly it was an enemy ship, a gunboat:lol: . I still use them thinking I may get the hang of it.

[kv29]

mk27 are good for closing dds, a good punch in the nose. They are SLOW, so don´t count on them to home on a fast evasive target.