The Dynamics of SHIV Gameplay - Questions

[MarkQuinn]

I hear so much about how SHIV is so buggy as to render it almost unplayable. Like many of you, I'm waiting on the next patch before I really throw myself into it. But man, I couldn't point out a single bug in this game. I simply haven't played enough. Basically, I don't know how to play.

Oh, I'm not talking about the mechanics. I can navigate and dive and identify targets and usually hit them with a torp and basically command the boat with reasonable competancy. Have been doing it since I was a bright-eyed young officer in the Kriegsmarine. ;) But I simply don't know how to carry out a campaign. Let me explain.

One of the best aspects of Silent Hunter --- namely the 1 mile = 1 mile scale --- is also one of its biggest detriments. None of us has the time to go on a patrol in real time from start to finish. If we do, then its one of those amazing trivial feats that you do to get your name in a game magazine and you do it once but never again and you probably read a few good novels while you're doing it. So what do we do instead? We use time-compression. I guess this post is really about how I don't know how to use time-compression; or, more precisely, how time-compression, this crucial thing without which we could never hope to finish a career, completely ruins immersion for me.

Here's how I generally play a patrol:

I start off in the harbor and sail out in real time. I stand on deck and take her out slow, breating the virtual salt air and getting my barrings or my "sea-legs". This is important to get in the mood. After about a half hour of this I plot my course to the patrol area and fast travel. If there's a contact I will slow down and investigate. Usually I can't do anything about it and simply time compress again, all the way to my destination.

So now you're at the patrol area and you have to patrol for 24 hours. Obviously no one does this. They plot new courses and search patterns around that area and time-compress, time-compress, time-compress. You get a contact and plot an intercept course. Great! Now the action starts. But then what? He could be hours away. So what do you do? You time-compress. You end up playing more in the map screen than in 3D, and this great simulation suddenly becomes a top-down strategy game or an RTS!

You apply rules to yourself. You say I will time-compress just until such and such time and then I will play the entire hunting sequence in real time. And again, the entire hunting sequence could be hours. Who has time for this? So you say "well maybe I'll just TC a little more" and then you TC a little more again. Suddenly, all the beautiful immersion I felt leaving dock --- that feeling that I wasn't in a submarine but an actual time machine that took me back sixty-five years, is gone. The game becomes a stuttering affair where you limp along alternating between TC and RT, somewhere in that uncomfortable place between smooth immersion and clunkiness.

And no, I don't have any suggestions for what might be a better way. Even if I did, it would likely come with its own drawbacks.

In short, it's just fantastic to have a game of this scale --- but the scale is just so big that it can at times be, well, too big.

So I'm writing this post in hopes of spurring a discussion about how you guys cope with this.

How do you guys play? What kind of rules do you implement in your own games for the use of TC? Or don't you? Do you play the whole thing in real time, a couple hours here and there, save, go back to it and essentially take five months to complete a three week patrol? Or do you do EVERYTHING in TC, only slowing down when the enemy is literally on top of you?

Opinions please! :)

[ReallyDedPoet]

How do you guys play?
2-3 times a week, 1-2 hours at a time for the most part. I have three kids, wife, and a fairly demanding job, and want to have a life, so I would say what I mentioned is probably the max I play. To each his\her own here.

What kind of rules do you implement in your own games for the use of TC? Or don't you?

No rules as far as TC, this is a time thing for me.

a couple hours here and there, save, go back to it and essentially take five months to complete a three week patrol?

This is basically how I play, in the end though to each his own as far as style of play, mods used, realism, etc. To me this is the most appealing thing about the series, lots of options.

Nice post by the way, glad you are enjoying the experience.

Good Hunting:up:

RDP

[starvingartist507]

Like you, in SH3 I loved taking the ship out of harbor. But I don't mind that thats has been removed now. I dont really have rules for TC, since I dont think its much of a crutch. For a "quick fix" of immersion, I'll just go to the external cam or bridge to check out the weather. If its foggy or stormy, i'm better off submerged, since the chances of a hydrophone contact are suddenly better than the chances of a visual. I usually do this daily and nightly, it takes 10 seconds of real time, and adds loads of "immersion value" and increases my odds of making a contact.

There are tons of ways to get involved. During an attack, I will occasionally compress to 2x or 4x if I feel safe, but on a solo merchant, its usually 1x only when I'm waiting for them to sail right into my sights. This is because I like to do some of the calcs to make sure their speed is right and so on... With a little work, its even possible to calculate the exact speed and even AOB, to ensure a perfect torp hit. All without some of the mods and "extras" that people in the forums have been using. I admire their resourcefulness, and I admittedly did download the Is-Was, but I don't use it TOO much since there is a similar, often-overlooked tool on the Postion Keeper (in game).

For a convoy attack, I'm almost always at 1x-4x and at the periscope. I'll usually scope down for a minute or two (on 2x-4x compression) then scope up for a minute. Basically any time the crew and the capitan both would be waiting around, I just compress right past that. Once at the scope, its a frenzy of plotting and re-adjusting course for a good shot. But then again, I play with manual charts and don't use the external cam for approaches. I keep external cam on just for the fun of looking at the graphics once in a while. Its nearly perfect realism for me, since I do all the looking and thinking at the scope, then go to the charts, plot, and plan with my newly acquired data. Thats pretty much what the crews did, and I don't feel like I'm missing much.

For evasion, I only compress when I am totally confident that I am out of trouble. Sad to say, I won't go above 8x when evading an escort. This is because I have to check in on those sound contacts once in a while, because i've been suddenly and totally destroyed when I don't pay attention.

But we're talking about hunting, like you said. Stalking a convoy is a tense affair, with constant adjusting and occasional radio reports. For that I just suffer through in the 8-32, up to 128 range, since I need to be on my toes. It makes sense to just let a set amount of time pass (say, 1/2 hour game time), then check in with everything again, re-plotting courses, adjusting speed, making sure you know where the escorts are, and basically plotting the perfect approach. Once you get all the waypoints set and a good approach settled, the higher time compression is a reward, not a crutch, because now, finnaly after all your hard work (and it can be hard when the crew doesnt plot anything for you) you suddenly have time to relax a bit and focus on the task ahead. If all works out, the feeling of accomplishment is far above any other game, since this involves a healthy dose of attention, organization, and focus. Don't get me wrong, I dont call in sick to work because I'm "on watch" or tell the girlfriend that I need to intercept a task force ASAP, but I appreciate a good deal of immersion.

Its basically impossible to play as a "Sub RTS" if you turn off charts. With no eyes but your own, you spend most of the time on the bridge or at the scope. If you try this, and still feel detached, throw some salt water in your face and don't do laundry for a month, you'll feel like a sea dog then.

[starvingartist507]

holy god my post was long, sorry

[ReallyDedPoet]

Don't apologize, some good stuff in there:up:

RDP

[THE_MASK]

Data\cfg\Main config file , change EnemyDetected=8 to EnemyDetected=1 , change Maximum=8192 to Maximum=256 , its a compromise but takes longer to find something and more rewarding when you do .

[Sailor Steve]

holy god my post was long, sorry
Actually not that long. There have been some real humdingers. Yours was an easy read.

[MarkQuinn]

Thanks for the responses so far!

I read everything and this particular line caught my attention:

Once you get all the waypoints set and a good approach settled, the higher time compression is a reward, not a crutch, because now, finnaly after all your hard work (and it can be hard when the crew doesnt plot anything for you) you suddenly have time to relax a bit and focus on the task ahead.

I think you gave me a new way to look at it, Starving. Because really in the end, the game will be the game and the only difference is in how we see/approach it.

My problem is I've been using TC with no rhyme or reason. It's just been a crutch, as you see. A crutch to keep me from having to play for 20 hours straight. But that approach is, in essence, me trying to control the flow of the game. I can't really control the flow of most other games I play, so why should I do it in SHIII or IV? The game is going to throw what it can at me ... I just have to be prepared.

So instead of TC'ing whenever I feel I have a long way to go, I should use the rule of thumb: TC until I make contact, then spend as much time as it take plotting the intercept course. I must not be in such a rush to engage. I must not be in such a hurry to "see the action," since good preparation for that action is a. more realistic, b. increases my odds of a successful encounter and c. is action-packed in and of itself. Once preparations have been made, then and only then, should I TC. Thinking of it as a "reward for a course well-plotted" is a better way of looking at it. Then, if the engagement is 15 minutes or three hours, so be it --- that's what the save button is for.

Honestly, I think my biggest problem has just been my rush to complete a patrol in "one sitting or less". If I can get away from that thinking, savor the game and let it breathe, it might just happen that I won't need to tell the game when to TC ... the game will tell me.

[mfddan]

I do pretty much the same thing as you do. I love sailing in and out of port in real time. I even go into harbor when I stop off at Midway to top off my tanks. I also use TC for a few hours in Midway to simulate the time it would take to fuel the sub. It takes longer than 1 second. I limit my TC to 1024 though. I won't go higher. That is about 1 minute 24 seconds for 1 day of game time. I like to put up the stop watch on the map screen when using the TC. When I get closer to port or an area with alot of activity, the watch hands start to jerk and don't rotate smoothly. When I see that I lower the TC until it is smooth again. So at 1024 it takes about 10-15 minutes real time to travel to Japanese Waters. If I use TC during an action phase I limit it to 32. I also only use it when I start to get impatient. If you have SJ Radar, You can make contact miles away. Sitting that long can be hard. I've been known to wait hours to set up on a target if I have the time and the patience. I save it often because I've spent hours setting up on a target to have the system freeze on me. When I'm in transit and not in enemy waters, I save it every 3 days in the morning after the sun is up. When I'm in enemy waters, I usually stay submerged during the day so I save it every time I surface or dive. I also save it after anything significant happens. ie sinkings, airplane attacks.

Sometimes I feel like I'm rushing my patrols. I want to get my Gato Class boat as fast as I can. Once I get my Gato I go back to taking my time and making it as realistic as possible.

I work a 3rd shift schedule. On my days off, I try to keep to that schedule. So when my wife is sleeping I get to play. So I can easily put in 8 hours on nights I'm off.

LCDR D. C. Limback
USS Drum SS-228

[ReallyDedPoet]

So when my wife is sleeping I get to play. So I can easily put in 8 hours on nights I'm off.

Wow, some serious gaming in one sitting:arrgh!:

RDP

[Iron Budokan]

Good thread. I suppose a lot of skippers have a lot of different ways they handle TC. Take my 9 year old for example. I've seen that kid TC in the middle of a convoy, even TC while setting up a down the throat shot to a DD. He almost turns it into an arcade game, but that's what works for him and that's the way he enjoys it. Kewl.

I tend to play a little slower, especially when I have a contact or am coming up on a kill. Frankly, sometimes I wish I could slow down time to 1/2 or 1/4! What's with this B.S. 1x I have to deal with when DDs are arrowing in on my position firing their guns at my 'scope and I'm trying to set up a snap shot at that jucy tanker. My brain doesn't work that fast. Yeesh.

Seriously, though, the TC is neither a crutch or a liability, it's just part of the game and you can fiddle around with it until you find the right "game flow" for you.

But overall I don't think you should worry too much about not playing the right flow of the game. There is no correct pace; only what works for you. How you play may be different from me, but both are legitimate.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Seriously, though, the TC is neither a crutch or a liability, it's just part of the game and you can fiddle around with it until you find the right "game flow" for you.

But overall I don't think you should worry too much about not playing the right flow of the game. There is no correct pace; only what works for you. How you play may be different from me, but both are legitimate.

Excellent comment(s):up:

RDP

[donut]

I hear so much about how SHIV is so buggy as to render it almost unplayable. Like many of you, I'm waiting on the next patch before I really throw myself into it. But man, I couldn't point out a single bug in this game. I simply haven't played enough. Basically, I don't know how to play.

Oh, I'm not talking about the mechanics. I can navigate and dive and identify targets and usually hit them with a torp and basically command the boat with reasonable competancy. Have been doing it since I was a bright-eyed young officer in the Kriegsmarine. ;) But I simply don't know how to carry out a campaign. Let me explain.

One of the best aspects of Silent Hunter --- namely the 1 mile = 1 mile scale --- is also one of its biggest detriments. None of us has the time to go on a patrol in real time from start to finish.

Here's how I generally play a patrol:

I start off in the harbor and sail out in real time. I stand on deck and take her out slow, breating the virtual salt air and getting my barrings or my "sea-legs". This is important to get in the mood. After about a half hour of this I plot my course to the patrol area and fast travel. If there's a contact I will slow down and investigate. Usually I can't do anything about it and simply time compress again, all the way to my destination.

You apply rules to yourself. You say I will time-compress just until such and such time and then I will play the entire hunting sequence in real time.
In short, it's just fantastic to have a game of this scale --- but the scale is just so big that it can at times be, well, too big.
So I'm writing this post in hopes of spurring a discussion about how you guys cope with this.

How do you guys play?

Opinions please! :)
Because you asked: First opinion,"Opinions are like butts,everybodies got one,& most stink"! Even mine.
NEXT: The first mod to SHIV,to control TC.,& allow life after.


Well after many attempts,success. The Commands.cfg ,must be altered in WoP.You will find it under path,--
-- C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Cfg\Commands.cfg -- Step #1--
--open Commands.cfg ,with Notepad. We will be changing:[Cmd6],& [Cmd313] in this file.(NOTE)copy Comands.cfg
file to a location you can find,so you have backup to return to origional install,incase patch from Ubi.
Over writes commands.cfg

[Cmd6]
Name=Time_compr_normal
Ctxt=1,2,6,9

;______________________________________ (looks like this)backspace to remove line,&leave 1space between
cmds.sequence.

must be rewritten to look like this.

[Cmd6]
Name=Time_compr_normal
Ctxt=1
Key0=0x0D,,"Enter"

step#2 change [Cmd313]

[Cmd313]
Name=Fire_torpedo
Ctxt=1
Key0=0x0D,,"Enter"
(looks like this)
must be rewritten to look like this.

[Cmd313]
Name=Fire_torpedo
Ctxt=1

Save changes when closeing Notepad.Fire torp button works,Enter,sets-TC.to x 1---I could not get Setkeys
program to work on WoP.It was setup to write to en.cfg in SHIII,& todate there is no such file in SHIV(WoP)
So there you go.Let me know if you experience any glitches,or have questions,PM

[MarkQuinn]

Wow Donut did you just publish your phone number on the internet? You're a braver skipper than I. ;)

Seriously though, what does your mod do exactly?

[donut]

You can't get hold of me without Email telling me to get off line,no problem.:rotfl:
To answer your question,it drops TC to X1 with enter key,number pad,& red fire button still fires.

[SteamWake]

To the OP...

It can take me a real time week to finish one patrol. That is with liberal use of time compression but rarely over 1024.

I get to play in 2 hour "sessions" and use a rotationg "save game" method. Ive been very lucky to not have a corrupted save as yet. I have save games while submerged in the middle of a convoy attack going against all conventional wisdom.

I do know that if I do hit a corrupted save I have one not to far behind that one to fall back to.

[mfddan]

Donut,
If you can change keys to put the TC to 1, Is there a way to set up a key to put the crew to battle stations? I'm tired of finding the correct menu tool bar to do it.

LCDR D. C. Limback
USS Drum SS-228

[donut]

I do believe your idea has been modded, Ck the list of mods sticky,SHIV mods forum. I recall reading,about same . Try; search "battle startions" in search tab:lol:

[mfddan]

ok donut, thanks

[MarkQuinn]

Steam, tonight I tried to fire up Wolves and continue a campaign started a couple weeks ago. I was going to utilize some of the ideas for TC posted here. It took me right up to the load screen and then crashed to desktop.

I haven't been keeping up with any SHIV bug reports. But based on what happened to me tonight, and reading your post, I'm guessing corrupted saves is a serious problem with this game? (I'm all patched up BTW)

Oh well. I play a lot of Oblivion so believe me I'm very used to the idea of saving frequently.

[starvingartist507]

is wolves worth re-installing sh3 for? I looked at the trailer, looks neat, but is it worth the trouble?

[McBeck]

is wolves worth re-installing sh3 for? I looked at the trailer, looks neat, but is it worth the trouble?
Isnt that an entire different discussion?

[SteamWake]

Steam, tonight I tried to fire up Wolves and continue a campaign started a couple weeks ago. I was going to utilize some of the ideas for TC posted here. It took me right up to the load screen and then crashed to desktop.

I haven't been keeping up with any SHIV bug reports. But based on what happened to me tonight, and reading your post, I'm guessing corrupted saves is a serious problem with this game? (I'm all patched up BTW)

Oh well. I play a lot of Oblivion so believe me I'm very used to the idea of saving frequently.

Pssst might want to call it SH4 insteada wolves to avoid confusion.

Yes there are some issues with corrupted saves. No one has really put a definative finger on the reason for it. Conventional wisdom is to save while surfaced with no other ships nearby.

I use a set of 4 saves and roll through them. Generally saving every half hour or so or before trying something stupid. That way if I do get a corrupted save I only loose a half hour or so.

[elanaiba]

Like you, in SH3 I loved taking the ship out of harbor. But I don't mind that thats has been removed now.

Whoa?! Removed? What do you mean ? It's a choice now!

[starvingartist507]

oh, just that you can skip it if you want. Not removed :oops:, just skippable. Sorry!