Politics of U-boat Captains

[Van Z]

Hello all,
I've recently got into SH3, and from reading these forums I see there are a lot of folks well steeped in the history of the Battle of the Atlantic and the combatants involved (now's a good time to tilt my Captain's hat at those involved with the excellent GWX and SH Commander mods!).
As someone who's interested in history & politics (I'm a right hoot down the pub :roll:) I'm curious as to the political motivations behind the U-Boat captains...
I know that political propaganda was rife on ALL sides of the war, but I'm wondering how seriously the Kaleuns took the National Socialist philosophy.
In the book "Hunt for the Red October", there is a commisar aboard who's job it is to see that crew are politically motivated towards the ideals of the Soviet Union. Did the Nazis employ similar methods? From what I know, the S.S. were die-hard Nazi fanatics, but did this fanaticism extend to the Kriegsmarine?
Personally, I think that the Kriegsmarine, along with the majority of the armed forces of that regime, took their orders as all men of war do... unquestioned to the political motives behind them, and to just do their job.
I'd love to hear people's opinions and any facts on this topic; I'm in the U-9, by the way, a rusty Type II-A. Lovely boat.
Thanks, and see soon!

[Brag]

The Kriegsmarine kept pretty much the policy of the Impreial navy of apolitical officers. Hitler complained about it on several known occasions.

[bigboywooly]

Hi and welcome Van Z

While every branch of the German armed forces had their fair share of nazis there were plenty who werent
No doubt they were gratefull to Hitler for providing them with employment and would have gone to war for their country no matter who was in charge

I have read that the uboatwaffe was the least fervant supporters of the nazi regime

Enjoy your stay among this den of pirates

[Packerton]

Who can blame them I woulden follow such twisted beliefs even if he did bring the country out of the hole.

[Iron Budokan]

The Kriegsmarine was the most apolitical branch of the services in the German war machine. But this all changed after the attempt to kill Hitler in '44 by his generals. Already paranoid, Hitler now wanted total obedience and obsiescence from all branches of the service, even the kriegsmarine who had up until this time been able to demonstrate some autonomy...at least as far as politics goes. But after the conspiracy to kill Hitler by his generals failed, then the Kriegsmarine became very politically oriented indeed.

[DrMilton]

The Kriegsmarine was the most apolitical branch of the services in the German war machine.

Nevertheless, there are historical accounts of several commanders showing more or less their favorism to Hitler. I cant say if that makes them nazists or fanatics but IMO there must have been an affiliation with Hitler's ideology.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard kaleun Van Z :arrgh!:

The kreigsmarine were the least observant/subservient to the Nazi Ideaology.

[nikbear]

While it has already been said that the Kreigsmarine were the least political,It should be noted that Doenitz himself was a fervent fan of Hitler,even when he failed to deliver all that he promised and Unkle karl would go to see him and swear that he was going to give him a piece of his mind,but as soon as the meeting was over he would come out glassy eyed and hypnotised by Hitler's mixture of browbeating and cajoling(an affect he had on many:nope: )Also let us not forget that when Hitler did the decent thing and went bang,who did he pass the poison chalice to?,someone who would uphold his twisted ideology and ideas,Karl Doenitz!Who even at that late stage of the war still thought a truce with the western powers was on and that a war could be continued with the russians,and all that entailed:dead: So while it is right to suggest that those in the boats were apolitical and thought Hitler a joke with a funny charlie chaplin tache,there were those at Bdu who were fervent nazis.Oh and welcome aboard,sink'em all;)

[Iron Budokan]

I have no doubt Doenitz was Hitler's toady, but do you think the fact he was the only general left that Hitler really trusted (as much as Hitler trusted anyone) counted for the fact he was appointed this position? I don't really know, that's why I'm asking....

[Iron Budokan]

The Kriegsmarine was the most apolitical branch of the services in the German war machine.
Nevertheless, there are historical accounts of several commanders showing more or less their favorism to Hitler. I cant say if that makes them nazists or fanatics but IMO there must have been an affiliation with Hitler's ideology.
Very true. I didn't mean to imply there were no ardent Nazis in the kriegsmarine. Even Herbert Werner writes about 'em in Iron Coffins. :yep:

[Crimguy]

The Kriegsmarine was the most apolitical branch of the services in the German war machine.
Nevertheless, there are historical accounts of several commanders showing more or less their favorism to Hitler. I cant say if that makes them nazists or fanatics but IMO there must have been an affiliation with Hitler's ideology.
Very true. I didn't mean to imply there were no ardent Nazis in the kriegsmarine. Even Herbert Werner writes about 'em in Iron Coffins. :yep:

It's always difficult to make any such conclusions/generalizations. The racism was pretty rampant in Germany at the time, and we must be mindful that the NAZI party came to power in '33 in an overwhelming majority.

There are some who think it's a disservice to separate the Germans from the NAZI party at all, and it's just semantics to try to distinguish the two. Hitler's Willing Executioners makes a compelling argument for just that. I'm sure there were plenty in the Kriegsmarine who were all for Hitler's regime, or at least what they knew of it. While that does not, for the vast majority of Germans, include approval of gas chambers and the like, it does speak volumes about conquering an entire continent and shipping away numerous "undesireables."

Does it matter though? They, like most of the soldiers throughout the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, were loyal to their country and doing their duty. I know I sound like a witness at Neuremburg . . .

Back on topic a bit, I do not think the NAZI's ever employed political officers per se. They did have gestapo agents and various members of the SS assigned to units to ensure there were no problems, politically speaking, but this is not like the Soviet system, where a political officer was assigned to every military unit.

[Schöneboom]

Actually the use of Nazi "political officers" was a late-war development in all branches of the German military. They definitely threw a wet blanket on the U-boat's esprit de corps, what was left of it by this time. In the early years, there was often a PK (Propangandakompanie) man on board, like Lt. Werner in Das Boot, who of course was thoroughly indoctrinated. He wasn't much liked, because he wasn't really part of the crew and just got in the way most of the time.

It is worth noting that people everywhere tend to be most uncritically patriotic when their country is militarily successful, and only begin to have doubts when the war goes terribly wrong for them. Those who benefit directly from the system (in the military & arms industry) are the least likely to bite the hand that feeds them. And one cannot underestimate the power of well-crafted propaganda on those who want to believe they are the good guys, that history will vindicate them.

If you read the book, "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" you'll have a much clearer sense not only of that society, but the weaknesses of humanity in general. Most citizens who owned a copy of "Mein Kampf" never actually read it. Who has time to think about politics when there's so much work to do?

[Chock]

Donitz was apparently opposed to the notion of a 'political officer' on board the U-Boats as far as I know, and Hitler famously once pointed out: "I have a reactionary army, a National Socialist air force, and a Christian navy.'

Although like most famous quotes, that one is open to a bit of interpretation. but if meant as a complaint, it is particularly ironic, since the middle-of-the-road Christian political parties were to a large extent instrumental in bringing the Nazi party to power, when voters of that ilk broke the political deadlock of no clear majority and put the Nazis in.

Nevertheless, there are many famous instances of Kriegsmarine (particularly U-Boat) men and officers displaying some highly 'un-Nazi' behaviour. Reinhard Suhren (commander of U-564), once famously shouted up to the quayside as his U-Boat came in from patrol: 'Are the Nazis still in charge?'
When someone shouted 'yes' from the quayside, he promptly put his U-Boat engines into reverse and backed away from the dock as a joke. And U-802 commander, Helmut Schmoeckel was in fact half-Jewish, but was allowed to serve nonetheless, so he's hardly likely to have approved of many of the SA's methods.

Having said that, other famous U-Boatmen were very much in favour of such methods. Joachim Schepke - noted for winning the Knight's Cross after sinking over 50,000 tons of shipping in just two days whilst commanding U-100 - is on record as having uttered many anti-semitic statements, although he stopped short of actually being a member of the Nazi party.

Oskar Heinz Kusch on the other hand, was reported by his IWO for sedition and defeatism (although his first officer - Dr Abel - may have been motivated by the fact that his first cruise on board U-154 with Kusch resulted in a poor report from Kusch and a denied recommendation for command, although a second report later proved favourable). Kusch was accused of taking down the picture of the Fuhrer from his U-Boat, apparently accompanied by the statement 'We are not in the business of practicing idolatry here.' Although some others on his boat claimed that he merely did such things to provoke discussion amongst his officers to relieve the boredom of a long patrol.

This incident provides some of the directorial inspiration for a similar scene with the IWO in the movie Das Boot by the way.

Nevertheless, Kusch was put on trial for sedition. His defence was not helped by the fact that he left the Hitler Youth early, although the prosecution failed to point out that he did in fact do so to join the Kriegsmarine.
Kusch was sentenced to one year in prison (ostensibly for the charge of listening to Allied radio broadcasts - something nearly all U-Boat crews did), but he refused to admit that he was guilty of anything and because of this, was subsequently sentenced to death and shot by firing squad in May 1944, the judge in that decision also being tried after the war in the 1950s, but eventually found not guilty based on the 'laws at that time not having been broken'.

However, as a postscript to this tale, many were not happy with that decision and in 1996 Kusch's record was wiped clean and two years after that in 1998, the City of Kiel honoured Kusch by naming a street after him (Oskar Kusch Stasse, near the Kiel Canal).

A plaque on Kusch's nearby memorial reads: 'His name stands for the many victims of the National Socialist system of injustice who died here and in other places. Their death is our legacy'.

Back directly to the topic at hand however, if you want to find out more about Donitz's motivations and the men of the U-Boats, I can recommend the books: 'Donitz and the U-Boats' (ISBN 1-86019-927-5) by (ironically) 'Bernard' Edwards, and 'Grey Wolf' (ISBN1-84176-312-8) by Gordon Williamson.

Anyway, welcome to the madhouse.

:D Chock

[DrMilton]

Back directly to the topic at hand however, if you want to find out more about Donitz's motivations and the men of the U-Boats, I can recommend the books: 'Donitz and the U-Boats' (ISBN 1-86019-927-5) by (ironically) 'Bernard' Edwards, and 'Grey Wolf' (ISBN1-84176-312-8) by Gordon Williamson.



...and of course "Memoirs" by Karl Donitz himself

[xlbob]

According to a book U boat Ace: The story of Wolfgang Luth, Wolfgang Luth was a supporter of Nazi, a strong supporter of Nazi. IIRC, also according to the book (his crews' account), he never talked about politics when they're on patrols.

If I'm wrong someone will correct me :D

[Captain Nemo]

According to a book U boat Ace: The story of Wolfgang Luth, Wolfgang Luth was a supporter of Nazi, a strong supporter of Nazi. IIRC, also according to the book (his crews' account), he never talked about politics when they're on patrols.

If I'm wrong someone will correct me :D

Yep, I would agree with that, but he never became a member of the Nazi party. It also mentions that Gunther Prien was a staunch Nazi as well.

Nemo

[Jimbuna]

I believe the general consensus in replies here is in relation to the Kriegsmarine as a service and not about those few individuals who my have differed from that viewpoint :nope: