Shame on these people

[Onkel Neal]

At least 146 German police officers are injured, 25 of them seriously, in clashes with about 2,000 protestors ahead of Group of Eight summit in Rostock, Germany, police spokesman says.

Masked demonstrators hurled stones and flagpoles at police during a demonstration Saturday by tens of thousands of people against the upcoming Group of Eight summit in Germany, creating chaotic scenes near the harbor of the northern port of Rostock.Officers in helmets and full body armor at one point had to back off before a hail of stones, while other officers chased down fleeing protesters.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/02/g-8.protest.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/02/g-8.protest.ap/index.html)

These police are just doing their job, I do not agree there is anything so henious about a G-8 summit that merits this level of violence from "protesters".

Open fire! I say :shifty:

[kiwi_2005]

Open fire! I say :shifty:

:o What above their heads or at them? backs off slowly...

Maybe get more police round up the protesters lock them up and throw away the key for the next few days.:)

[geetrue]

They did an expose on these same demonstrators on MSNBC ... they travel as a group, their expenses are paid by big money people that help the demonstrators get from convention city to convention city.

The slice of life we see (we = normal people) on television leaves a lot of truth hanging that individual's have to find out for themselves.

The eyes and ears of subsimers know though ... :yep:

[Skybird]

Wait until the summit begins. the security meqasures are excessive - so is the anger and detemrination of some thugs that do not want to demonstrate, but are just coming for the "Randale". Past G8 summits already were no peaceful events, but this time it could become additionally grim. Depends on the police' preparations, and strategy.

that parts of constitutional rights and civil rights partially have been cancelled fopr duration of the summit, and before, does does not help to calm angry tempers. The whole summit is a damn feudal freak show. The costs and the efforts taken just that some self-convinced leaders can have their dinner in a monarch's way, is disgusting. they should hold their meetings in less costly and provocative manners. a whole village has been effectively turned into a fortress. Demonstrations are forbidden to be closer than 6 km. the right to demonstrate becomes a farce if those being adressed by the demonstration mjst not take note of it, and do not even know of it. But let it appriach at least the outer fence (which still is 2 km away from the village), and you will have troubles with the violent thugs in th crowd. You can do what you want - you get a mess.

That's why I strictly oppose such summits being held in such a way. Demosntrators loose, police looses, democarcy looses - everybody looses.

The Nazis where trying to demonstrate in Schwerin today. They also try to brake into the anti-G8-camp. Violent lefts are trying their luck in Hamburg meanwhile. Plenty of fun ahead.

Disgusting.

I would bomb the place with sleep gas from aircraft - including the damn confernce room.

[Hitman]

These police are just doing their job, I do not agree there is anything so henious about a G-8 summit that merits this level of violence from "protesters".

Open fire! I say :shifty:

Someone has to do the dirty job, yet it is always a shame to get hurt just bceause you are trying to earn a wage :nope:


I would bomb the place with sleep gas from aircraft - including the damn confernce room

Don't worry about that, the conclusions of the conference will be exactly the same if the ones involved in t had been sleeping:roll:

[CCIP]

You have to agree that while Russia is often criticized for being heavy-handed, the last G-8 summit (in St. Petersburg) was certainly the most trouble-free so far. I was in the city at the time, and I was more scared of the heavily armed police (or rather interior ministry troops, even) than of any disorder, of which there was none. (and let's not forget the more recent protest attempts there, either). Anyone who made a peep was quickly dragged off. No violence, noone killed, noone injured so far as I know. And they let the protesters run free at an old stadium in an isolated part of town, where they got quickly bored. Some city administration people visited them to play soccer, and the protestors lost!

They should just conduct all their summits in Russia from now on.

[AntEater]

In contrary to the US, Riots are not uncommon in Germany.
There exists a bunch of radical elements who hijack pretty much every public demonstration.
I don't really share the criticism of the (peaceful) protesters against the G8 summit, but the curtailing of civil liberties, the "Baltic wall" around Heiligendamm and the general behaviour of our internal security services angers me.
Keep in mind there were about 25000 peaceful protesters whose organisation cooperated with the police, while there were at most 2000 violent "protesters".
The Meck/Pomm police actually was quite smart in dealing with peaceful and violent protesters quite seperately.

What angered me were the curtailing of civil liberties and the security measures for Heiligendamm, most of which are according to US demands. According to various reports, the fence and the whole security scheme is basically there to satisfy the secret service.
Neither Putin nor Sarkozy nor Blair nor any other head of state demands such high security and there have been meetings of a similar number of EU head of states without such a backfall to GDR times.
I often wonder why there has been such high security for a US president in a foreign country (which is not exactly indian territory unless a US president visits it) while security in a country where pretty much everybody is armed (his own) the security measures are much more relaxed.
I suppose it is some kind of perverse power demonstration that the US is able to shut down all normal life in a country for a simple state visit.
Apparently the only country a US president could currently visit without any drastic change in Orwellian direction is Iraq, where everything would just stay the same.
I suppose the best way to deal with the diplomatic obligations of the US would be either to convert an aircraft carrier into a floating diplomatic base or do it like Saddam and use Doppelgängers for state visits. Not that anyone would notice the difference anyway...

[Skybird]

Well, the Secret Service is known for naturally assuming that foreign nations are it's personal property. Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list. Bush wasn't wanted by residents and Germans anyway. When he drove through the city, people had to stay away from windows - in their own homes. The scenes looked like ghost towns, or what somtimes was to seen in Eastern-European countries during the Soviet era when a high-ranking political convoy was racing through a city. I wonder what the use of such stunts should be. PR-wise, last time it was a desaster. I personally think that a foreign guest whose bodyguards behave as if the hosting nation is theirs, would not be missed if he stays were he is - as far away as possible.

Rostock is calm now - with 13.000 riot police in town, they said in "Heute Journal". Two things are quite obvious: first, that today'S riots were started by the so-called autonomous block who afterwards were sick enough to say they had been provoked, and second that the organizers of the intended peaceful rallies and demonstrations do not really know what many kinds of guests they are hosting, and that they do not have them under control.

I wish Bush would have stayed away, he is not welcomed here and he will not be anything more than a roadblock anyway.

BTW, riots are not typical for Germany, the wild years have been the late 60s of which I have no memory, and the 80s which I expreinced in Berlin, and compared to that they are rare these days. They appear throughout Europe with the exception of the scandinavia countries, my impression is. Often, football and holligans have something to do with the trouble.

[waste gate]

I see this thread has turned into another bash the US screed from the usual suspects.

[AntEater]

Not really anti-americanism. Just saying that the US should get to a slightly more relaxed approach on such matters. Germany is not indian territory (in a John Wayne sense) and german security forces are quite capable.

But as I said, both the leaders of the peaceful protests as well as the local police commanders reacted quite well, it seems. But 30000+ protesters plus 13000 police is quite a lot for such a small town as Rostock, and more protesters are coming.
Actually the peaceful side of that anti-summit campaign seems to turn into some kind of baltic Woodstock. Quite a few people I know are on their way there and maybe I would've gone myself if I didnt have to work.
In a navy context, a german navy minesweeper blew up a WW2 magnetic mine off Heiligendamm this morning. At least the navy gets the opportunity to do something worthwile on their time and clean the baltic from such leftovers

[waste gate]

Based on the news out of Germany regarding this it sounds like 'indian territory' to me. The summit hasn't even started and the German authorities are already overwhelmed. Common sense seems to dictate a more robust approach to these 'people'.

[NefariousKoel]

Ahhh... Liberals getting violent. An increasing trend.

The new Bolshevik revolution?

[Lurchi]

[...]Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list.
From what i've heard the exact opposite was true: It were the german authorities who had completely overdone this whole security thing - even the secret service personnel shook their head over the native genius who decided to close down a complete freeway junction which led to complete chaos. Bush obviously wasn't too amused when he was driven through Ghosttowns which was the exact opposite from the visits of Ronald Reagan or -especially- John F. Kennedy (:rock:) who were cheered by the population.

One must admit that the U.S. President is the most endangered person on this G-8 summit - the long list of killed Presidents is proof enough. It doesn't matter if one likes Bush or not, he is an elected leader and a guest in our country - he should be welcomed and treated as such, all necessary security measures included.

I also think that violent riots become a sport here - last week there was one on the occasion of the ASEM summit in Hamburg.

[waste gate]

The last two G8 summits here in the US had none of this violence.

I remember the summit here in Denver in 1997. There were some traffic issues as the leaders moved around but no violent protests.

The conclusion I make is that if you put a mask on during a protest in this country you are going to get more than water shot at you.........real consequences for actions.

[fatty]

My city hosted the G7 (before Russia joined and made it the G8) in '95. I was young but my older sister worked as an interpreter for the Russian delegates. It was a pretty jubilant time - a hell of a lot of partying at all hours of the night. I think the favour of certain leaders present does make a difference.

[mapuc]

To Neal:

Open fire, well many danish citizen said the same, when the danish police "clean out" a occupied house On "jagtvej 69"

Those protestan had no sympathy at all.

Markus

[Skybird]

[...]Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list.
From what i've heard the exact opposite was true: It were the german authorities who had completely overdone this whole security thing - even the secret service personnel shook their head over the native genius who decided to close down a complete freeway junction which led to complete chaos. Bush obviously wasn't too amused when he was driven through Ghosttowns which was the exact opposite from the visits of Ronald Reagan or -especially- John F. Kennedy (:rock:) who were cheered by the population.


Sorry, but I know that one better, first-hand from a friend of mine who has been associated with the foreign ministry. Sorry that I can't give you the details on him, but he wouldn't like it. I know him from my adventure times - back then he was a freelance correspondent. At least that's what he said. Sometimes I thought that he also was a bit of something different. Which often is difficult to separate in the Middle East.

And since you mentioned the assassinations - how many presidents have been shot in the last decades inside america, by Americans, and how many have been shot by foreigners? ;) They tried Roosevelt, Ford (now that was really a harmless guy), and Reagan; they succeeded with Kennedy. Noboy tried Nixon, or Bush junior. Hm.

Today'S events have something good: for the next days, the police is warned. I know that during today, additional BGS units have been put on alarm throughout Gemany and got marching order towards Heiligendamm. Officials do not make it a high-profile story.

And while the Nazis were denied to demosntrate in Schwerin, they surprised the police in Berlin and demonstrated there, unhindered and mostly unguarded. Bad failure by the intelligence guys...

[waste gate]

Check out the photo gallery. These masked thugs are out in the open. If the Germans have any respect for their law and the people sworn to uphold that law they would demand an armed response, a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,486307,00.html

[AntEater]

Strange question nobody asks:
Who are these "black block" people?
At Frankfurt University during my "protest" phase (a man who isnt a socialist at 20 has no heart....), I knew pretty much everybody active in student politics on the left side and there were only about half a dozen people who fit into that category.
Where do you get 3000 of those? Hafenstrasse? Kreuzberg? Kreuzberg seems to be more the scene of Jihad than of anarchist violence lately.
Also it is strange that our internal intelligence services seem to do so little about these people. I mean they seem to have infiltrated the neo nazi scene quite well.
Strange about this demonstration was that the protesters I saw on videos seemed almost as well organised and uniformed as the police. You could really tell apart the violent ones from the peaceful ones just by looking at them before even the stones started flying.
Almost like an army.

Regarding shooting, shooting incidents are what turns protest into civil war. If somebody starts shooting, somebody is bound to shoot back eventually.
Politics aside, in a riot situation, I think the use of firearms is totally counterproductive, as the ranges are too close. Unless you use machineguns to mow everybody down (german police had MG 42s until about 1990), you cannot possible shoot them all and you might get rushed by the protesters, who might take guns from police officers and use them against the police. Until some new non lethal weaponry becomes available, tear gas, batons and watercannon are still the weapons of choice.
Also, do you really want to be the police officer who shoots first?
I know a police officer who once shot a guy in a self defense situation and nearly lost his job and his family over it.

And the fact that my government is not willing to gun down people at random for some vague concept as "respect for the law", even violent anarchist at will is the reason I think our constitution and government are worth supporting and worthy of Germany even though I disagree with many decisions the current government has made.

[waste gate]

Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these F*ckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will go away.

The current response makes Germany and the German people look very weak indeed.

[P_Funk]

Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these F*ckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will go away.
Thats right wastegate. The way to get rid of people who don't respect the constitution and the rights and freedoms of others and the society that governs all of those principles is to just ignore those principles and kill them without trial and in a disproportionate response.

People like this show up because of bonehead draconian ideas like that. Its why everytime Israel bombs the Gaza Strip it doesn't make any real difference. Kill a few today and you create a dozen tomorrow. Not to mention the fact that if the police started to kill any and all violent protestors you'd just get more riots over such blatant civil rights abuses and corrupt and out of control police.

Where do you get these ideas from?

[waste gate]

Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these F*ckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will go away.
Thats right wastegate. The way to get rid of people who don't respect the constitution and the rights and freedoms of others and the society that governs all of those principles is to just ignore those principles and kill them without trial and in a disproportionate response.

People like this show up because of bonehead draconian ideas like that. Its why everytime Israel bombs the Gaza Strip it doesn't make any real difference. Kill a few today and you create a dozen tomorrow. Not to mention the fact that if the police started to kill any and all violent protestors you'd just get more riots over such blatant civil rights abuses and corrupt and out of control police.

Where do you get these ideas from?

Thats BS. These people came to break the law and cause serious injury, if not death. Talk yourself blue it won't stop them until they see serious consequence. The world is a tough place where tough decisions have to be made and talking about it changes nothing.

[Frenssen]

Peaceful demonstrations is a part of democracy, but these violent thugs are scum and should be treated as such.
But if one of them gets killed there would be an uproar in the media, so the police are fighting with one hand on their back.

[Skybird]

We call these people "Autonomer Block". It is a wild mixture of anarchists, hooligans, loosers, "socially handicapped" people, anti-this, anti-that, not working, for the most they tend towards the far left political ideas as they interpret them (often wrongly), in the 80s they occupied plenty of houses in Berlin. I by bad chance found myself in three of those streetbattles Berlin saw in those years, when I left a cinema, a library in the America-house, and a shopping mall. It was no pleasant place to be. Two times I needed to shortly rumble with policemen who wrongly identified me as a hostile, but it ended by reasonable quick communication- there i was lucky. but one time I was attacked by masked thugs. That opportunity became a hefty affair, and i was much weaker, and young, and unsure of myself.

Shame on such people. Their primitiveness and "Scheißegal"-mentality is disgusting. today i would have the means and ability to deal far more brutally with them, if being attacked again. back then it was too early for me - i took much more than I was able to give.

Ein Scheißtag war das!

[tycho102]

These police are just doing their job, I do not agree there is anything so henious about a G-8 summit that merits this level of violence from "protesters".

Open fire! I say :shifty:

I agree, though I don't know if they should be using rubber or ball ammo. Maybe that new microwave device.

Or, you know, a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. Whatever gets the job done.

[Tchocky]

I remember the ceremony in Dublin, when 15 countries were joining the Eu, the security was similiarly excessive.
I mean, nothing transpired bar some shouting and marching, but the newspapers were full of predictions of terror attacks et bleedin' cetera.

Wrong place, wrong time? I don't know, but that water cannon hurt like hell. i guess holding a placard with both hands is a drenchable offence.

[waste gate]

I remember the ceremony in Dublin, when 15 countries were joining the Eu, the security was similiarly excessive.
I mean, nothing transpired bar some shouting and marching, but the newspapers were full of predictions of terror attacks et bleedin' cetera.

Wrong place, wrong time? I don't know, but that water cannon hurt like hell. i guess holding a placard with both hands is a drenchable offence.

Begs to question what is 'excessive' security in the face of folks like this?
Does the existance of security require an attack on that security with rocks or any weapon which is available?

Why would one see security as a target unless they want to make trouble?

[Tchocky]

some good questions, tough to answer.

I know that I've never wanted to hurt any security officer, except after being physically assaulted for no reason. That was not a function of reason, I was mad, angry. Very often security forces are bordering on paranoia, marshaling protesters to "free-speech zones" etc, and this creates anger and resentment. Getting clubbed for no reason doesn't help.

This was ****ing nasty - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCznvywH9G4
I was at the other end of Dame Street when this happened.

Does the existance of security require an attack on that security with rocks or any weapon which is available? No. There is no reason to attack security forces. It does no good.
Sadly, there are some out there who enjoy taking a crack at the police. Also, there are police who enjoy battering hippies. And evidently, there's someone who enjoys knocking a guy with a sign off of his feet with a water cannon. (did i mention it hurt).
There was no violence that day except that of the police.

I remember talking to my cousin in 2001, he was in Genoa. Just after Carlo Giuliani was shot. A horrible atmosphere. The night before, the Italian police had raided a large hall, where many peaceful protesters were sleeping. A lot of blood was spilled and tensions were extremely high the next day. Things got out of hand, and some Italian trooper shot a young man who was carrying a fire extinguisher. That said, he had it over his head, and was on top of a police car. Stupid. It cost him.
Along with the dead man's friends and family, I felt sorry for the young policeman who had to kill someone.

Why would one see security as a target unless they want to make trouble?Exactly, those who want to make trouble see security forces as targets.

Those who want to make a statement see police as obstacles that cannot be directly challenged.

I don't know what it looks like from the police side.

Well-armed snipers? Are you being serious?
That's myopic in the extreme.

[Officerpuppy]

I have no sympathy for those who knowingly and willingly plan an armed, violent protest. I do have sympathy for those who get cought in the middle as either non-violent protesters or on lookers.

Having been in situations where violence could easily escalate during my time as a reserve police officer I can understand the tensions on both sides of the barricade, unfortunately the emotions of people can get the better of someone, police officer and protester alike.

[Ostfriese]

We call these people "Autonomer Block". It is a wild mixture of anarchists, hooligans, loosers, "socially handicapped" people, anti-this, anti-that, not working, for the most they tend towards the far left political ideas as they interpret them (often wrongly).
These idiots have no political ideas. They don't have any ideas at all. But they all know that none of the peaceful people on those demonstrations will harm them. They can roam freely, they are even invited by the organisation of the demonstrations. The police again suffers fom understaffing and low funds. The police people have to do highly dangerous work for a long time with the expectation of getting beaten up - anyone surprised that they lose temper (Skybird, "lose" and "loser" are spelled with just one 'o').

The worst among the crowd are thoese peaceful demonstrators who just stand around and do nothing while their reputation and their credibility is destroyed by a bunch of anarchists.

[P_Funk]

The police again suffers fom understaffing and low funds. The police people have to do highly dangerous work for a long time with the expectation of getting beaten up - anyone surprised that they lose temper
Thats a pretty substantial statement and it isn't particularly specific. I wish you guys would make fewer unsubstantiated remarks like that.

But the police are not allowed to get angry. They're not allowed to lose their tempers. The whole point of their training is to make them into intelligent and moderated police. Soldiers fight well without the proper gear all the time. So must police maintain composure given a less than ideal situation, if any does exist. They're there allegedly to maintain order. It defeats their purpose for them to lose control and its not acceptable for them to do so under any budgetary circumstances.

The worst among the crowd are thoese peaceful demonstrators who just stand around and to nothing while their reputation and their credibility is destroyed by a bunch of anarchists.
What are they supposed to do? "Excuse me Mr. Skinhead. Umm... could you put that man down before we talk please... uuhhhh... thank you... now I don't at all respect the way you're going about this and I'd like you to please desist from further anarchist behavior."

Yea. These guys don't respect the police but some idealist that tells them they're ruining it for the rest of us... I'm sure that guy will survive the day.:roll:

Besides, its not their job to do anything about violent protestors. As everyone else keeps pointing out the police are there to quell these bad ass motherfu**ers.

[Tchocky]

The worst among the crowd are thoese peaceful demonstrators who just stand around and to nothing while their reputation and their credibility is destroyed by a bunch of anarchists.
Yeah, say what you will about the tenets of aggressive unreasoned violence, at leadst it's an ethos. With peaceful protesters you just don't know where you stand!

http://www.adventuremoney.com/Images/Walter-Sobchak.jpg

[Ostfriese]

What are they supposed to do? "Excuse me Mr. Skinhead. Umm... could you put that man down before we talk please... uuhhhh... thank you... now I don't at all respect the way you're going about this and I'd like you to please desist from further anarchist behavior."

That's all they have been doing so far. Maybe it's time to make SERIOUS attempts to prevent those bastards from joining the demonstration?

Besides, its not their job to do anything about violent protestors. As everyone else keeps pointing out the police are there to quell these bad ass motherfu**ers. It's their *******ing obligation to keep those idiots OUT. John Doe won't know those mindless jerks, but those who organize the demonstrations DO(!) know the scum. And they do NOTHING beyond that crappy flower-power talk to stop them.

So as long as people believe that nice words will prevent any violence none of the demonstrators should be surprised if he turns out to be collateral damage.

[P_Funk]

Yeah, say what you will about the tenets of aggressive unreasoned violence, at leadst it's an ethos. With peaceful protesters you just don't know where you stand!

http://www.adventuremoney.com/Images/Walter-Sobchak.jpg OVER THE LINE! I'm sorry Smokey but you were over the line. Mark it a Zero.

I was not over the line Walter

Smokey, if you mark that an 8 you will be entering a world of pain. MARK IT ZERO!
AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT GIVES A SH1T ABOUT THE RULES!?

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

OMG I don't care if I agree with you or disagree with you. I love that movie and dropping a Walter pic makes me love you.:rotfl:


"Smokey this is not 'Nam, this is Bowling, there are rules."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF_xaXASZ-A

[Tchocky]

I'm reminded of that scene quite often on this forum :p

[P_Funk]

That's all they have been doing so far. Maybe it's time to make SERIOUS attempts to prevent those bastards from joining the demonstration? How do you keep people from showing up at a free protest? Its their right to show up. Until they actually break the law nobody can stop them. And its not like the Neo-Nazis are like car pooling with the Peaceniks.

And I don't care how violent it gets, you can't deny a man his fundamental rights in advance of violence. Thats just the slippery slope and besides we don't turn our constitution on and off when things get a litle controversial. This is the basic philosophy of freedom we're talking about. The right to protest is one of the first things that despots take away. Its part of freedom of expression. Until they start to throw things at the cops I don't think we can allow them to be kept away.

Plus if the G8 wants to hold a conference in the backyard of these hooligans then they'd better expect it to happen. Who's upsetting the natural order here? You can't change the fundamental freedoms of a nation for the long weekend because a bunch of pompous foreigners are getting together to stall on more global reforms.

I'm reminded of that scene quite often on this forum :p
Me too. I think that we need more Lebowskis around here and fewer Walters. We're already overflowing with Donnys thoough.

[Skybird]

(Skybird, "lose" and "loser" are spelled with just one 'o').

You should have seen me in the past when I misspelled "sure" as "shure" for years! :)

[Skybird]

Official bilance:

- 433 injured policemen, several of them severly,
- 520 injured "demonstrators" (says then organizer of the demo, I do
not know if he differs between demonstrants and thugs),
- 155 arrest (52 of the arrested are already released again)

Police says there were 30.000 demonstrators, the orgnaizers claim it were 80.000, they had planned for 100.000. Around 2.000 of these have been violant anarchists.

Police says they had been attacked with a level of brutality and rage that previously has been unknown in Germany before. not only sticks and stones were used to attack the officers, but whole plates of the footpath had been used to attack them, resulting in serious injuries.

This is one of the rare times I argue in favour of using more physical force. It cannot be that this level of brutality and acceptance to even kill goes by without reaction. In such cases like yesterday, I would accept the use of firearms at closer range and leg-height. It is a clear case of self-defense by thew police - many of their men had been isolated and hunted around like animals before they got beaten up. Totally unacceptable, such aggression must be broken and stopped at all cost. I deduce that directly from the constitution.

I remember a serious incident years ago, during a football championship in France - German thugs threw a Gendarm to the ground and then started to beat his head with clubs, and iron sticks. He suffered non-repairable brain injuries and was close to death. I would not complain if the attackers would have been shot dead at point blank range - if other police men would have been near.

[bookworm_020]

We have an APEC conference here in Sydney in September. Already they have told people to take a day off, but two whole weeks are going to messed up, as some leders will be coming early or leaving late (the Kings Cross Red light district will be busy;)).

They will close two major rail staions in the city, scramble phones when there is a big wig coming through town, Stop traffic on major roads into the city at peak hour:huh:. Why couldn't they hold this in Canberra, no one would notice the delays and we wouldn't have so much disruption.:roll:

[P_Funk]

This is one of the rare times I argue in favour of using more physical force. It cannot be that this level of brutality and acceptance to even kill goes by without reaction. In such cases like yesterday, I would accept the use of firearms at closer range and leg-height. It is a clear case of self-defense by thew police - many of their men had been isolated and hunted around like animals before they got beaten up. Totally unacceptable, such aggression must be broken and stopped at all cost. I deduce that directly from the constitution.
I don't disagree with you there. What I disagree with is the idea of targeted assasination of these guys before they go ape****, as was suggested by waste gate. That and barring the demonstrators themselves.

I don't agree with any suspension of the constitution for these events but once the sh1te hits the fan the police must do what they are there to do.

[Smaragdadler]

G8 is deception for the global masses anyway and if the Krauts must pay the s**** - it's even better. :D

[...]
The delegates at Bilderberg 2007: Istanbul, Turkey May 31-June 3
This year’s delegation will once again include all of the most important politicians, businessmen, central bankers, European Commissioners and executives of the western corporate press. They will be joined at the table by leading representatives of the European Royalty, led by Queen Beatrix, the daughter of the Bilderberg founder, former Nazi, Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands and Bilderberger President, Etienne Davignon, Vice Chairman, Suez-Tractebel from Belgium. According to Bilderberg Steering Committee list which this author had access to, the following names have now been confirmed as official Bilderberg attendees for this year’s conference (In alphabetical order):
George Alogoskoufis, Minister of Economy and Finance (Greece); Ali Babacan, Minister of Economic Affairs (Turkey); Edward Balls, Economic Secretary to the Treasury (UK); Francisco Pinto Balsemão, Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.;="almer Prime Minister (Portugal); José M. Durão Barroso, President, European Commission (Portugal/International); Franco Bernabé, Vice Chariman, Rothschild Europe (Italy); Nicolas Beytout, Editor-in-Chief, Le Figaro (France); Carl Bildt, Former Prime Minister (Sweden); Hubert Burda, Publisher and CEO, Hubert Burda Media Holding (Belgium); Philippe Camus, CEO, EADS (France); Henri de Castries, Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, AXA (France); Juan Luis Cebrian, Grupo PRISA media group (Spain); Kenneth Clark, Member of Parliament (UK); Timothy C. Collins, Senior Managing Director and CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC (USA); Bertrand Collomb, Chairman, Lafarge (France); George A. David, Chairman, Coca-Cola H.B.C. S.A. (USA); Kemal Dervis, Administrator, UNDP (Turkey); Anders Eldrup, President, DONG A/S (Denmark); John Elkann, Vice Chairman, Fiat S.p.A (Italy); Martin S. Feldstein, President and CEO, National Bureau of Economic Research (USA); Timothy F. Geithner, President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of New York=(USA); Paul A. Gigot, Editor of the Editorial Page, The Wall Street Journal (USA); Dermot Gleeson, Chairman, AIB Group (Ireland); Donald E. Graham, Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company (USA); Victor Halberstadt, Professor of Economics, Leiden University;="almer Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings (the Netherlands); Jean-Pierre Hansen, CEO, Suez-Tractebel S.A. (Belgium); Richard N. Haass, President, Council on=Foreign Relations (USA); Richard C. Holbrooke, Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC (USA); Jaap G. Hoop de Scheffer, Secretary General, NATO (the Netherlands/International); Allan B. Hubbard, Assistant to the President for Economic Policy, Director National Economic Council (USA); Josef Joffe, Publisher-Editor, Die Zeit (Germany); James A. Johnson, Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC (USA); Vernon=E. Jordan, Jr., Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC (USA); Anatole Kaletsky, Editor at Large, The Times (UK); John Kerr of Kinlochard, Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc (the Netherlands); Henry A. Kissinger, Chairman, Kissinger Associates (USA); Mustafa V. Koç, Chariman, Koç Holding A.S. (Turkey); Fehmi Koru, Senior Writer, Yeni Safek=(Turkey); Bernard Kouchner, Minister of Foreign Affairs (France); Henry R. Kravis, Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. (USA); Marie-Josée Kravis, Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc. (USA); Neelie Kroes, Commissioner, European Commission (the Netherlands/International); Ed Kronenburg, Director of the Private Office, NATO Headquarters (International); William J. Luti, Special Assistant to the President for Defense Policy and Strategy, National Security Council (USA); Jessica T. Mathews, President, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (USA); Frank McKenna, Ambassador to the US, member Carlyle Group (Canada); Thierry de Montbrial, President, French Institute for International Relations (France); Mario Monti, President, Universita Commerciale Luigi Bocconi (Italy); Craig J. Mundie, Chief Technical Officer Advanced Strategies and Policy, Microsoft Corporation (USA); Egil Myklebust, Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, Norsk Hydro ASA (Norway); Matthias Nass, Deputy Editor, Die Zeit (Germany); Adnrzej Olechowski, Leader Civic Platform (Poland); Jorma Ollila, Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc/Nokia (Finland); George Osborne, Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer (UK); Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa, Minister of Finance (Italy); Richard N. Perle, Resident Fellow, American=Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (USA); Heather Reisman, Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc. (Canada); David Rockefeller (USA); Matías Rodriguez Inciarte, Executive Vice Chairman, Grupo Santander Bank, (Spain); Dennis B. Ross, Director, Washington Institute for Near East Policy (USA); Otto Schily, Former Minister of Interior Affairs; Member of Parliament; Member of the Committee on="aleign Affairs (Germany); Jürgen=E. Schrempp, Former Chairman of the Board of Management, DaimlerChrysler AG (Germany); Tøger Seidenfaden, Executive Editor-in-Chief, Politiken=(Denmark); Peter D. Sutherland, Chairman, BP plc and Chairman, Goldman Sachs International (Ireland); Giulio Tremonti, Vice President of the Chamber of Deputies (Italy); Jean-Claude Trichet, Governor, European Central Bank (France/International); John Vinocur, Senior Correspondent, International Herald Tribune (USA); Jacob Wallenberg, Chairman, Investor AB (Sweden); Martin H. Wolf, Associate Editor and Economics Commentator, The Financial Times (UK); James D. Wolfensohn, Special Envoy for the Gaza Disengagement (USA); Robert B. Zoellick, Deputy Secretary of State (USA); Klaus Zumwinkel, Chairman of the Board of Management, Deutsche Post AG (USA); Adrian D. Wooldridge, Foreign Correspondent, The Economist.
Amongst the names appearing on=the initial list of invitees which this journalist had access to in January 2007 stand out the names of the now disgraced John Browne, British Petroleum’s Chief Executive Officer and the disgraced and fired former chief of the World Bank, Paul Wolfowitz. It will be interesting to see if either of these men makes an appearance at Bilderberg 2007. The Bilderbergers have no trouble accepting criminals into the fold as long as their misdeeds are conducted away from public spotlight and scrutiny. Once exposed, the culprits are generally discarded. Lord Conrad Black, former chief executive of Hollinger media group is a case in point.
Two others names on=the original January 2007 list should raise a few eyebrows. One of them is Bernard Kouchner, the newly appointed Minister of "aleign Affairs in the right wing Nicolas Sarkozy government in France. Kouchner is a former founder of ONG Doctors without Borders. He was absent from Bilderberg 2006 in Ottawa, Canada. Could his government position=been arranged prior to the French national elections? "al my money, the surprise appearance of year award should go to Mahmood Sariolghalam, Associate Professor of International Relations, School of Economic and Political Sciences, National University of Iran. What is an Iranian doing at a NATO alliance controlled Bilderberg conference? We will know soon=enough. Bilderberg 2007 is indeed a good time to look=behind the scenes.
[...]
http://www.danielestulin.com/?op=noticias&noticias=ver&id=318&idioma=en
etc.pp.

[Yahoshua]

/\
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!
!

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/Smilies/poster_spam.gif

[The Avon Lady]

/\
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!
!

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/Smilies/poster_spam.gif
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1480/59070hdd4.gif

:p

[Yahoshua]

http://th166.photobucket.com/albums/u88/richiebaby41/th_stupid.jpg (http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi166.photobucket.com%2Falbums% 2Fu88%2Frichiebaby41%2Fstupid.jpg&searchTerm=stupid&pageOffset=8)

(All in good fun)

[Smaragdadler]

It's not my fault, that the list is so long. Only stupids shoot at the messenger...:)
(fun indeed)

[Skybird]

This is one of the rare times I argue in favour of using more physical force. It cannot be that this level of brutality and acceptance to even kill goes by without reaction. In such cases like yesterday, I would accept the use of firearms at closer range and leg-height. It is a clear case of self-defense by thew police - many of their men had been isolated and hunted around like animals before they got beaten up. Totally unacceptable, such aggression must be broken and stopped at all cost. I deduce that directly from the constitution.
I don't disagree with you there. What I disagree with is the idea of targeted assasination of these guys before they go ape****, as was suggested by waste gate. That and barring the demonstrators themselves.

I don't agree with any suspension of the constitution for these events but once the sh1te hits the fan the police must do what they are there to do.

Targeted assassination? Well, I am not surprised of the sender of this message - it's endless BS like this that made me blocking him.

One should point out that the 2000 thugs starting that fighting against the police - are absoutely an international band of thugs, they are not only Germans. Confirmed nationalities of huge parts of members of this plague are Danish, Polish, Russian, Dutch, Czech, English, Italian, Austrian, Belgian, and of course Germans who have come from all over the country.

The polcie operation has been revealed meanwhile to have been a total chaos in the beginning. Nobody had expected this ammount of never before seen brutality (in Germany), and such a massive outbreak of violance. All in all 16-17.000 policemen are said to have been massed in and around Heilgendamm, of these, intially only some hundred where in Rostock, trying to break up th massive block of 2000 anarchists by charging them in groups of just twenty! It is without precedence in Germany that during running police operation - the commander of the operation was replaced by a more experienced veteran - who then started to call in all reserves in the region, until they had around 13.000 policemen in the city in the late evening. thats almost all of the whole police contingent they have stationed in the summit region.

The first commander obviously was totally out of control, and it all was far too much for him. I don't want to be in his place - his further career probably is in ruins.

[waste gate]

For the record I didn't use the word assasination that is P-funk's word. My point was that anyone who puts on a mask and assaults the legitimate authority should be dropped to send the message that it will not be tolorated.

Continue to coddle the miscreants and you will continue to see the behavior because there is no consequence for the behavior. These people will be released from jail w/in the month and empowered to do the same thing in the future.

[Tchocky]

For the record I didn't use the word assasination that is P-funk's word. My point was that anyone who puts on a mask and assaults the legitimate authority should be dropped to send the message that it will not be tolorated.
you said - "a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away."

So if you assault figures of authority, then they are permitted to abuse that authority?
What's wrong with arresting and trying them, waste? Why do you see violence as the immediate answer?

[waste gate]

At least 146 German police officers are injured, 25 of them seriously, in clashes with about 2,000 protestors ahead of Group of Eight summit in Rostock, Germany, police spokesman says.

Masked demonstrators hurled stones and flagpoles at police during a demonstration Saturday by tens of thousands of people against the upcoming Group of Eight summit in Germany, creating chaotic scenes near the harbor of the northern port of Rostock.Officers in helmets and full body armor at one point had to back off before a hail of stones, while other officers chased down fleeing protesters.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/02/g-8.protest.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/02/g-8.protest.ap/index.html)

These police are just doing their job, I do not agree there is anything so henious about a G-8 summit that merits this level of violence from "protesters".

Open fire! I say :shifty:

Continued.........

I said the same thing Neal said.

Why doesn't P-funk accuse Neal of proposing assasination?
Why doesn't skybird accuse Neal of endless BS?

Why don't you go after Neal with the same enthusiasm? Is it because you have no backbone?

[P_Funk]

For the record I didn't use the word assasination that is P-funk's word. Thats exactly what you called for. Not in so many words but the way you characterize it, its as calculated as a premeditated murder:
a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away.
Hidden snipers in advance of a protest. That'll definitely teach people a lesson. But I don't think it'll be the one you want.

[Tchocky]

Continued.........

I said the same thing Neal said.

Why doesn't P-funk accuse Neal of proposing assasination?
Why doesn't skybird accuse Neal of endless BS?

Why don't you go after Neal with the same enthusiasm? Is it because you have no backbone?

Well.....Neal's post is a lot less considered and clear than yours. You went into methods and results. Neal's post can be read as indicative, not prescriptive. Yours cannot.

Why doesn't skybird accuse Neal of endless BS? - Neal doesn't post endless BS. Fairly simple


"Help, help. I'm being oppressed!"

[P_Funk]

I said the same thing Neal said.

Why doesn't P-funk accuse Neal of proposing assasination?
Why doesn't skybird accuse Neal of endless BS?

Why don't you go after Neal with the same enthusiasm? Is it because yo have no backbone?
Because Neal didn't qaulify it in the same sense that you did. Snipers and the terminology "drop a few" is a calculated premeditated response. Its like soldiers taking down targets on a mission.

Neal said open fire on the violent anarchists attacking the police. If they have to to save their lives so be it. Attacking a cop is a dumb thing to do, especially when he has a few thousand buddies with him. But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:

[waste gate]

For the record I didn't use the word assasination that is P-funk's word. Thats exactly what you called for. Not in so many words but the way you characterize it, its as calculated as a premeditated murder:
a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away.
Hidden snipers in advance of a protest. That'll definitely teach people a lesson. But I don't think it'll be the one you want.

'Not in so many words' means I didn't say it. You did.

The snipers will definately teach the lesson, if they are allowed to do their jobs.

[Tchocky]

The snipers will definately teach the lesson, if they are allowed to do their jobs. What job? Shooting civilians who could be arrested and tried?

This idea of shooting violent protesters would make the violence.......wait for it.....worse. Remember Kent State?

[waste gate]

I said the same thing Neal said.

Why doesn't P-funk accuse Neal of proposing assasination?
Why doesn't skybird accuse Neal of endless BS?

Why don't you go after Neal with the same enthusiasm? Is it because yo have no backbone?
Because Neal didn't qaulify it in the same sense that you did. Snipers and the terminology "drop a few" is a calculated premeditated response. Its like soldiers taking down targets on a mission.

Neal said open fire on the violent anarchists attacking the police. If they have to to save their lives so be it. Attacking a cop is a dumb thing to do, especially when he has a few thousand buddies with him. But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:

I'm not dragging Neal in, he was in from the very first post. You are trying to make me into the demon without seeing anyone else who had the same opinion. Like I thought, no backbone!!

[Tchocky]

Because Neal didn't qaulify it in the same sense that you did. Snipers and the terminology "drop a few" is a calculated premeditated response. Its like soldiers taking down targets on a mission.

Neal said open fire on the violent anarchists attacking the police. If they have to to save their lives so be it. Attacking a cop is a dumb thing to do, especially when he has a few thousand buddies with him. But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:
I'm not dragging Neal in, he was in from the very first post. You are trying to make me into the demon without seeing anyone else who had the same opinion. Like I thought, no backbone!!
You don't read posts, do you?
Try this, I'll remove some:

But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:
I'm not dragging Neal in, he was in from the very first post.

Yeah, no backbone :roll:

[Skybird]

Technically, I haven't accused anyone by name of posting BS. Thus a clever BS-poster in this case would not say in public that he feels concerned by the criticism of posting BS.

Only real heavy BS-posters would do that. :p

[waste gate]

Technically, I haven't accused anyone by name of posting BS. Thus a clever BS-poster in this case would not say in public that he feels concerned by the criticism of posting BS.

Only real heavy BS-posters would do that. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by P_Funk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
This is one of the rare times I argue in favour of using more physical force. It cannot be that this level of brutality and acceptance to even kill goes by without reaction. In such cases like yesterday, I would accept the use of firearms at closer range and leg-height. It is a clear case of self-defense by thew police - many of their men had been isolated and hunted around like animals before they got beaten up. Totally unacceptable, such aggression must be broken and stopped at all cost. I deduce that directly from the constitution.

I don't disagree with you there. What I disagree with is the idea of targeted assasination of these guys before they go ape****, as was suggested by waste gate. That and barring the demonstrators themselves.

I don't agree with any suspension of the constitution for these events but once the sh1te hits the fan the police must do what they are there to do.


Targeted assassination? Well, I am not surprised of the sender of this message - it's endless BS like this that made me blocking him.


??????????????

[Tchocky]

Technically, I haven't accused anyone by name of posting BS. Thus a clever BS-poster in this case would not say in public that he feels concerned by the criticism of posting BS.

Only real heavy BS-posters would do that. :p

Stop posting BS

[waste gate]

Because Neal didn't qaulify it in the same sense that you did. Snipers and the terminology "drop a few" is a calculated premeditated response. Its like soldiers taking down targets on a mission.

Neal said open fire on the violent anarchists attacking the police. If they have to to save their lives so be it. Attacking a cop is a dumb thing to do, especially when he has a few thousand buddies with him. But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:
I'm not dragging Neal in, he was in from the very first post. You are trying to make me into the demon without seeing anyone else who had the same opinion. Like I thought, no backbone!!
You don't read posts, do you?
Try this, I'll remove some:

But what Neal said isn't as specific as what you said. He has to explain his intent with that message a bit better before I'll try and drag him into one of our lengthy pissing contests.:damn:
I'm not dragging Neal in, he was in from the very first post.

Yeah, no backbone :roll:

I read it and knew what he was saying. Perhaps you missed it. 'An accusation in the negative'.

[Tchocky]

I must have. (obligatory smiley :))

So, snipers?

[Heibges]

For the record I didn't use the word assasination that is P-funk's word. My point was that anyone who puts on a mask and assaults the legitimate authority should be dropped to send the message that it will not be tolorated.

Continue to coddle the miscreants and you will continue to see the behavior because there is no consequence for the behavior. These people will be released from jail w/in the month and empowered to do the same thing in the future.

This British followed this advice at the Boston Massacre, and it didn't get them very far. :lol:

[waste gate]

I must have. (obligatory smiley :))

So, snipers?

In an urban enviroment snipers would be placed on roofs and other higher 'ground'.
From those angles non-violent demonstrators would be less likely to be struck unintentionally. The 'bad guys' were out in the open and could be easily taken by well trained forces. If you play pool/billiards you know it is all about the angles. The third demention is very important.

[Tchocky]

The third demention is very important.
How apt.

Any answers to my questions above? About the snipers.

[waste gate]

The third demention is very important.
How apt.

Any answers to my questions above? About the snipers.

I'm sure even Germany has trained snipers and if you have the higher ground its all about angles and people attacking your fellow officers.

[P_Funk]

In an urban enviroment snipers would be placed on roofs and other higher 'ground'.
From those angles non-violent demonstrators would be less likely to be struck unintentionally. The 'bad guys' were out in the open and could be easily taken by well trained forces. If you play pool/billiards you know it is all about the angles. The third demention is very important. Yea I'm sure that those guys would show real restraint. Its bad enough what riot police do once the show begins with their big sticks. More aggressive police tactics never work. Police are there to hold back the tide of violence, not eliminate it through killing.

Lets get some perspective here. Crazy Anarchists with sticks and rocks wearing bandanas throwing stuff at poorly led, outnumbered police. That was the scene before. Now there are 13 000 police.

If the coppers didn't plan effectively then that doesn't give them cause to start shooting people from the third dimension. Now that they have 13 000 as Skybird suggest then they don't really have any reason to get so draconian with 2000 crazies. Killing them as a demonstration of consequence is just using execution as a deterrant except without a trial.

[Skybird]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/fragen-des-tages/archiv/05.06.2007/3310131.asp

I loosly translate only parts:

"Fruits and other soft objects were used that were filled/peppered with razorblades and small cut-blades (from craftsman-kits). On impact these supersharp blades cut open uniforms of hit officers... "

Imagine what such sick things would cause on a human body that is not protected by the body-armour of riot police, or when hitting riot police at unprotected body areas during a rumble.

"Bigger rocks were fired by using Deuserbänder (rubber-bands, several cm wide and 1-2 meter long that physiotherapist Deuser first has introduced to physiological rehabilitation and power training of the German national football team). with these rubber bands, rocks the size of children's heads had been fired at the police (like huge catapults)... We are convinced that the Chaoten (the thugs) have bunkered their material (in ammonitions and weapon) since weeks, amongst this even smoke grenades and yellow smoke from Eastern Europe."

Rocks the size of heads, fired by catapults. The article also says that the onslaught was so brutal and aggressive that the police was not able to keep them at minimum distance, needing to accept close infight - this is the reason why the number of wounded officers is so high.

In another article, a spokesman of the police union today said he could imagine that during a repetion of such brutal events, orders for sharp shooting eventually could be - and should be - given.

I myself stand by my argument of using sharp ammuntion to shoot at their legs. If that means hitting fourthousand legs, so be it. Only two thing sare important in this: that they are prevented from continuin to injure or kill police, and that they canot run away and escape being brought to court and serve a penalty for intended murder.

[waste gate]

In an urban enviroment snipers would be placed on roofs and other higher 'ground'.
From those angles non-violent demonstrators would be less likely to be struck unintentionally. The 'bad guys' were out in the open and could be easily taken by well trained forces. If you play pool/billiards you know it is all about the angles. The third demention is very important. Yea I'm sure that those guys would show real restraint. Its bad enough what riot police do once the show begins with their big sticks. More aggressive police tactics never work. Police are there to hold back the tide of violence, not eliminate it through killing.

Lets get some perspective here. Crazy Anarchists with sticks and rocks wearing bandanas throwing stuff at poorly led, outnumbered police. That was the scene before. Now there are 13 000 police.

If the coppers didn't plan effectively then that doesn't give them cause to start shooting people from the third dimension. Now that they have 13 000 as Skybird suggest then they don't really have any reason to get so draconian with 2000 crazies. Killing them as a demonstration of consequence is just using execution as a deterrant except without a trial.


They wore maskes and they were assaulting the legitimate authority, thumbing their noses at German law, and using deadly physical force. I didn't ever say to do anything more than drop a few. That would do the trick. They are cowards who hide behind peaceful people , using them as human shields, the rest of the 2,000 will run crying to momma.


Those that die can be comforted by the fact that they died for a cause.

[Tchocky]

The snipers will definately teach the lesson, if they are allowed to do their jobs. What job? Shooting civilians who could be arrested and tried?

This idea of shooting violent protesters would make the violence.......wait for it.....worse. Remember Kent State?

This is what I was looking for a response to.

[waste gate]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/fragen-des-tages/archiv/05.06.2007/3310131.asp

I loosly translate only parts:

"Fruits and other soft objects were used that were filled/peppered with razorblades and small cut-blades (from craftsman-kits). On impact these supersharp blades cut open uniforms of hit officers... "

Imagine what such sick things would cause on a human body that is not protected by the body-armour of riot police, or when hitting riot police at unprotected body areas during a rumble.

"Bigger rocks were fired by using Deuserbänder (rubber-bands, several cm wide and 1-2 meter long that physiotherapist Deuser first has introduced to physiological rehabilitation and power training of the German national football team). with these rubber bands, rocks the size of children's heads had been fired at the police (like huge catapults)... We are convinced that the Chaoten (the thugs) have bunkered their material (in ammonitions and weapon) since weeks, amongst this even smoke grenades and yellow smoke from Eastern Europe."

Rocks the size of heads, fired by catapults. The article also says that the onslaught was so brutal and aggressive that the police was not able to keep them at minimum distance, needing to accept close infight - this is the reason why the number of wounded officers is so high.

In another article, a spokesman of the police union today said he could imagine that during a repetion of such brutal events, orders for sharp shooting eventually could be - and should be - given.

I myself stand by my argument of using sharp ammuntion to shoot at their legs. If that means hitting fourthousand legs, so be it. Only two thing sare important in this: that they are prevented from continuin to injure or kill police, and that they canot run away and escape being brought to court and serve a penalty for intended murder.


Doesn't look like skybird and I are very far off in opinion on this one, save knowing that shooting at legs would be more dangerous for non-combatants than center of mass.

[waste gate]

The snipers will definately teach the lesson, if they are allowed to do their jobs. What job? Shooting civilians who could be arrested and tried?

This idea of shooting violent protesters would make the violence.......wait for it.....worse. Remember Kent State?

This is what I was looking for a response to.

Quite a bit of difference here Tchocky. The folks at Kent State were not wearing masks and assaulting the police or National Guard. Don't equate the Kent State tragedy with what we saw in Rostock. It isn't the same thing.

[Tchocky]

Quite a bit of difference here Tchocky. The folks at Kent State were not wearing masks and assaulting the police or National Guard. Don't equate the Kent State tragedy with what we saw in Rostock. It isn't the same thing.
It shows how shooting civilians without due process only turns public opinion against the police.

Again, why not arrest these people instead of shooting them? Does the legal process mean nothing?

[Onkel Neal]

I'm inclined to post my thoughts occasionally and then let it go. As for my statement, I don't have a lot of patience for criminals, especially those who abuse our freedoms, such as the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government. Most of these punks wouldn't be so tough and daring except they know the police will show some restraint.

Yeah, if you go to work, you're doing your job, and some guy knocks your teeth out with a paving stone, how would you react? ;) Police do not deserve to be treated any differently than you and me. I'm all for arresting them, but only if 20-year sentences are the result.

[waste gate]

Quite a bit of difference here Tchocky. The folks at Kent State were not wearing masks and assaulting the police or National Guard. Don't equate the Kent State tragedy with what we saw in Rostock. It isn't the same thing.
It shows how shooting civilians without due process only turns public opinion against the police.

Again, why not arrest these people instead of shooting them? Does the legal process mean nothing?

Have a look at skybird's post. He and I are not in disagreement except for where the target is located. The difference has more to do with firearm knowledge than the appropriate action.

[Tchocky]

Have a look at skybirds post. He and I are not in disagreement except for where the target is located. yes, and you are advocating shooting people, with death as a likely outcome.
I don't especially care what you are in disagreement about, that's between yourself and Sky.

Why not arrest them?

Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?

[Skybird]

Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?
We are not talking about "protesters". Simply that. there were around 28000 protesters, and 2000 rats. The mess has been caused by the rats, and they came with shoppingtrolleys filled with stones and the items I described above. At no point of time they ever cared to go there for protesting.

I see myself pretty much in conformity with what Neal said - we just expressed it in different words, but we want the same outcome - the rats disappearing behind bars for "twenty years" (Neal) / for "intended murder"(me) .

[waste gate]

Have a look at skybirds post. He and I are not in disagreement except for where the target is located. yes, and you are advocating shooting people, with death as a likely outcome.
I don't especially care what you are in disagreement about, that's between yourself and Sky.

Why not arrest them?

Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?

Firstly, most gunshot wounds do not result in death if treated quickly. This isn't the 19th century or before, where infection killed the vast majority of people who sustained gunshot wounds.

Secondly the use of deadly physical force, as used by some of these masked men/women, requires a like response. Unless you want it to continue or have it happen in the future.

At some point a decision has to be made as to whether your, law, those sworn to uphold that law, and life is important enough to stop the attack or not.

Looking at the German news they are debating this now.

[Tchocky]

Firstly, most gunshot wounds do not result in death if treated quickly. This isn't the 19th century or before, where infection killed the vast majority of people who sustained gunshot wounds.Fine


Secondly the use of deadly physical force, as used by some of these masked men/women, requires a like response. Unless you want it to continue or have it happen in the future. How about arresting them, as has been happening in Germany?

At some point a decision has to be made as to whether your, law, those sworn to uphold that law, and life is important enough to stop the attack or not.Yes, and they can be arrested.

Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?

[waste gate]

Firstly, most gunshot wounds do not result in death if treated quickly. This isn't the 19th century or before, where infection killed the vast majority of people who sustained gunshot wounds.Fine


Secondly the use of deadly physical force, as used by some of these masked men/women, requires a like response. Unless you want it to continue or have it happen in the future. How about arresting them, as has been happening in Germany?

At some point a decision has to be made as to whether your, law, those sworn to uphold that law, and life is important enough to stop the attack or not.Yes, and they can be arrested.

Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?


What is it you don't understand about being confronted with deadly physical force, as the German authorities were at Rostock?

[Skybird]

How about arresting them, as has been happening in Germany?

Less then 10% of the rats were arrested only. Some 150 of 2000. Some fifty were released the same day, the majority of those not released the same days has been released meanwhile. 6 or 7 only will be brought to court, and stay in arrest.

Police is aware of the rest of the pack hiding in the protester's camps. they consider it to be too dangerous and risky to search the tent camps for these rats systematically, since police always is seen as the enemy of even peaceful protesters, so that operation most likely will cause confrontation even with the so far peaceful protesters. that'S why the rats are hiding in their middle. What noboby can explain is why the protesters allow that - some people must know some rats, could identitfy them at the police - but they don't do that. what would be true civil courage to defend the freedom of free speech- becomes the display of eventually accepting that free speech is prohibited even more - when the demonstration will be banned from Heilgendamm at even greater distances.

Edit: journalists said today in TV news they can't openly film in many of the peaceful protester's tent camps anymore - it would bring their health at risk, so high is the hostility and mistrust there. Edit end.

I said myself before that the security measures looked exaggerated. It partially looks like the old zone-border between both Germanys. But obviously I, and many others, were wrong. Rostock has justified these measures. I still stick with my criticism why such feudal summits must be held on land, instead on sea, where it would be cheaper, more safe, and since direct demonstration on land in reach of the leaders is already prohibited, it does not make a difference if protesters couldn't reach them on sea as well.

when it is possible to arrest them?

That would bring you only some grim and bitter smiles from policemen's faces today. Don't you think it would have been done if it would have been so easy? I wonder if outside Germayn the sayme kind of video footage was shown as what we have seen in Germany. It were pictures of fullblown war, fought with some kind of medieval primitive weapons.

we were lucky not to have many officers dead, some say.

[Tchocky]

What is it you don't understand about being confronted with deadly physical force, as the German authorities were at Rostock?
Having never been in the situation of a policeman, I'd say there's a lot that I don't understand.
Why do you see shooting people as the immediate answer?
These kind of thugs need be be arrested and tried, not martyred in the streets in front of television cameras.


Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?

[Tchocky]

I still stick with my criticism why such feudal summits must be held on land, instead on sea, where it would be cheaper, more safe, and since direct demonstration on land in reach of the leaders is already prohibited, it does not make a difference if protesters couldn't reach them on sea as well. It makes a big difference, mostly line of sight. The essence of protest is voice, and it has to be recognised. It wouldnt solve anything for leaders to run away to a cruise liner. I remember being outside Dromoland Castle, watching Bush flying in, and then waving a sign as Air Force One took off the next day. That was close enough.

[waste gate]

What is it you don't understand about being confronted with deadly physical force, as the German authorities were at Rostock?
Having never been in the situation of a policeman, I'd say there's a lot that I don't understand.
Why do you see shooting people as the immediate answer?
These kind of thugs need be be arrested and tried, not martyred in the streets in front of television cameras.


Why should the police be allowed fire on, and kill, protesters when it is possible to arrest them?

Where did I say shooting was the immediate answer? When confronted with deadly physical force, and disregard for German law and order as the German authorities were at Rostock how many options are available? I have mentioned the initial use of deadly physical force by the protestors a number of times now. You ignore the most pertinant aspect of my arguement. That is the litmus test. Once it is engaged all holds are and must be off in order to protect the lives of the non-violent demonstrators and the general public.

[Tchocky]

Where did I say shooting was the immediate answer? When confronted with deadly physical force, and disregard for German law and order as the German authorities were at Rostock how many options are available? Well, arrests have been made, so there's an option.
You didnt say immediate, correct.

I have mentioned the initial use of deadly physical force by the protestors a number of times now. Can we call it deadly force when no one has died?

Once it is engaged all holds are and must be off in order to protect the lives of the non-violent demonstrators and the general public.So, anything goes? That's a rather cavalier approach to law enforcement. Thugs engaging in certain behaviour does not remove all holds from the police. Using criminals behaviour as a standard, now there's some cognitive dissonance!

[waste gate]

Where did I say shooting was the immediate answer? When confronted with deadly physical force, and disregard for German law and order as the German authorities were at Rostock how many options are available? Well, arrests have been made, so there's an option.
You didnt say immediate, correct.

I have mentioned the initial use of deadly physical force by the protestors a number of times now. Can we call it deadly force when no one has died?

Once it is engaged all holds are and must be off in order to protect the lives of the non-violent demonstrators and the general public.So, anything goes? That's a rather cavalier approach to law enforcement. Thugs engaging in certain behaviour does not remove all holds from the police. Using criminals behaviour as a standard, now there's some cognitive dissonance!

A couple of issues I shall address.

As a matter of law there is a concept called 'a reasonable person', google it, the answer will give you an answer to your first question.

Can we call it deadly force when no one has died?


Your second question goes to your misconception of police powers, which are ultimately that of the state. It also goes to my ongoing theme that the use of 'deadly physical force' must be responded to by like force.


So, anything goes? That's a rather cavalier approach to law enforcement. Thugs engaging in certain behaviour does not remove all holds from the police. Using criminals behaviour as a standard, now there's some cognitive dissonance!

[TteFAboB]

I said myself before that the security measures looked exaggerated. It partially looks like the old zone-border between both Germanys. But obviously I, and many others, were wrong. Rostock has justified these measures. I still stick with my criticism why such feudal summits must be held on land, instead on sea, where it would be cheaper, more safe, and since direct demonstration on land in reach of the leaders is already prohibited, it does not make a difference if protesters couldn't reach them on sea as well.

:rotfl: As if the sea would hold them. They'll choose an alternative target. This amount of people, with this level of organization, would not go away simply because the summit went away, became inaccessible. They'll do a Paris and burn cars or something.

[The Avon Lady]

They'll do a Paris and burn cars or something.
That'll keep her off the streets for good.







Oh.






The other Paris. :88)

[Skybird]

I still stick with my criticism why such feudal summits must be held on land, instead on sea, where it would be cheaper, more safe, and since direct demonstration on land in reach of the leaders is already prohibited, it does not make a difference if protesters couldn't reach them on sea as well. It makes a big difference, mostly line of sight. The essence of protest is voice, and it has to be recognised. It wouldnt solve anything for leaders to run away to a cruise liner. I remember being outside Dromoland Castle, watching Bush flying in, and then waving a sign as Air Force One took off the next day. That was close enough.
You don'T get my point.
there is no los in heiligendamm. the defense perimeter with the main fence is already 2-3 km away from the hotels. Demonstrations currently are prohibited to come closer than 6 km to the fence. Makes how many km all together?

[Skybird]

Where did I say shooting was the immediate answer? When confronted with deadly physical force, and disregard for German law and order as the German authorities were at Rostock how many options are available? Well, arrests have been made, so there's an option.
You didnt say immediate, correct.

See my posting above.

I have mentioned the initial use of deadly physical force by the protestors a number of times now. Can we call it deadly force when no one has died?

Not really. It is called intended murder. If you target cobblestones at other people intentionally, if you use catapult-like constructions to use even greater rocks, and shoot them with greater velocity, if you chase single policemen with stick and stones and when you get them throw them to the ground and beat and kick them like crazy and brake them some bones - is this no lethal force? at the minimum you accept of seriously injure other people, and since you have total control of will over yoiur decision wether you throw that rock or not, it is an intentional act, which separates murder from slaughter. It is intended murder for sure. The only thing that has saved lives in Rostock was the heavy protecton gear these police-guys are wearing.

In your quarrel with WG you make it all looking as a hrmless, controllable event that can be dealt with by business as usual. You do not know what you talk about, and defend criminals who by their acts are guilty of intended murder. That simple. They are no demonstrators. They have not been provoked, but provoked themselves. They came fully armed, löooking for a rumble. They wear all black, which makes their appearance sort of a uniform dress code. they came with faces cloaked, which in Germany is under strict prohibition by law, and penalty. They use lethal force whose effects only is bolstered by the protection gear of the police.

Imagine for a while that the police would wear no body armour, and then would go into the battle at Rostock. We would have several dozens of dead. Not everybody has an unimpressable wooden head like you that does not care for getting hit by heavy rocks. Maybe your veins are of metal. as well. But usualy, policemen's veins are soft tissue that is easy to rip through by razor-blade-covered ammunition.

Take note that the police union itself for the very first time ever said that the use of firearms in such events maybe must be given a serious consideration. when lifes are at risk, the interests of the victims are weighing ultimately higher than the well-being of the agressors. note that I said "shooting at their legs at short distance". considering many scenes at Rostoick, for many policeman that would have been an option on the basis of self-defense. Instead, they did not do it. Many payed with their health for that. Most have cuts, sometimes quite deep and wide, still many have internal and even open fractures at limbs and rips, there are even some cases of head fractures. "So anything goes?" (Tchocky)

the German constitution, btw, in principle strips everybody off his constitutionally guaranteed rights, when he uses these rights to call for destruction of the constitutional system, or is acting on behalf of this aim himself. You can'T kick the state when you feel bad, and when he wants to sue you claim the rights he should guarantee you. You take both the rights and the duties, and if the duties are not of your taste, you are not to claim the rights. And that is the time when I ask sombody why the hell he is not getting out and leaves us behind, then.

So anything goes?
Same question back to you.

[GakunGak]

I respect those cops for not kicking those asses all the way back to Mars, and not using shoot-to-kill, yet. But, could they use any non-lethal means to counter those vandals? Shooting in the legs, IMO, should be the last attempt to hold the situation under control...
I just happen to have a right guy for this situation....
http://www.geocities.com/theactionkingsd/TheDeltaForce2-DVDcoverart.jpg