Ideal range for convoy torpedo attack in GWX v.1.03

[Genghis Khan]

Hello all Kaleuns :) ,

This is perhaps the most complicated question in GWX gameplay.What is going to be the ideal range for convoy torpedo attack in GWX?

Let's mention all aspects you have to deal with when attacking large convoys in GWX:

1.Favourable attack position.That usually means that your boat is traversing the route of convoy.The biggest problem here is that it's extremely difficult to pick up traversing position at the "theoretically" ideal range for torpedo attack-800 or 1000 meters.Convoy escorts do use very sophisticated escorting tactics in GWX and it's nearly impossible to turn on "Ahead Full" on "Rig for Silent Running" without chance of being compromised.Fast propulsation is cruicially needed on such short distances while attacking convoys,as if your and convoys angle speed is big enough - the convoy will eventually escape,at least you will not be able to turn into zero gyro angles for torpedo launches.

2.Stealth.It's quite difficult to perform approach maneuvering and stay stealthy being at short distance to the convoy-your periscope maybe spotted,or your U-Boat maybe picked up on sonar by destroyers.

3.Ability to engage multiple targets rapidly.Well,everything here still depends on the angle speed,being at short range you will not be able to turn into zero gyro angles,running at "Rig for Silent" and maintaining 2 knot speed.Speed difference is too big - 2 knots for your U-Boat,and 5-7 knots for the convoy.So,practically you can launch torpedoes upon one ship only being at such short range-ships will start zig zagging after the first torpedo hit and you cannot afford yourself enough speed to start attacking other ships due to stealth requirements.

Of course,you can have absolutely ideal conditions for convoy attack in GWX - ideal traversing approach at 800 meters from convoy,night without moonlight,escorts far away etc. - but this is more exception,than a rule.

According to my personal observations,best results are achieved firing at greater ranges.For example,yesterday I caught up the Large Convoy South East of Rockall Bank.There was daytime - 1-00 PM,little stormy sea,bright sunshine and perfect visibility.I was approaching the convoy at ideal traverse (90 degrees) but distance to more or less valuable ships was about 3 - 4 km.I turned on "Rig For Silent Running",set on "Full Speed" for TI-G7A torpedoes in my Type IXB U-123 and maneuvered towards a group of Large Merchants,those were ideally positioned for my attack.I engaged two of them from 3 kilometers,third was fired upon being 4 km from my position.And you know what?Those three Large Merchants were sunk during 4 minutes as they were hit almost simultaneously (I am playing with fast reload :) ) and I got 35 000 tonnage within those 4 minutes.Moreover,I started crash diving after "Torpedo Impact" reports still running on silent mode,and never was picked up on sonar by destroyers.I dived down to 220 meters and gradually escaped.

Generally speaking,I think that the same convoy can be shadowed and attacked numerous times if you use a Type IX boat in GWX.So I would like to ask everybody,when is "The Alarm" is actually cancelled within a convoy after first attack?I mean when do all ships start returning into formation?

I always use only gas/steam powered TI-G7A torpedoes.I think only those high speed fishes allow you to make long range marksmanship in GWX.And,as I said before,all convoy attacks are most successfull at over 2000 meters distances as you can match and maintain all necessary criterias for a successfull attack:good angle speed for hitting multiple targets,keeping "Silent Running" for your U-Boat stealth,having enough gap between you and destroyers for safe escape.

So,Kaleuns,I would like to ask you all,what do you do if you spot a large convoy?Wait for the most "theoretically" favourable conditions or engage at a chance,if conditions are more or less favourable.

I will be glad to read all your comments and answers.

Good Hunting to all Kriegsmarine Grey Wolves :D :up:

[KeptinCranky]

Don't underestimate the TII in GWX with 3km range and it not leaving a bubble trail you can get off a few shots at several ships from outside the convoy and they wont get alerted until the first one goes off, by then it will be too late for the other targets

by the time the TIII becomes available with 5km range its time to leave those TIs at home or maybe take only 1 or 2 for juicy targets at long range at night

concerning accuracy over range, yes the TI is better but when you have a good angle on the convoy, TIIs and TIIIs will do the trick as well, just be ready to fire a little earlier or to have your boat already turned a few degrees to get that zero gyro-angle necessary for good marksmanship.

as for your crash-diving when the first torpedoe hits, that's not something I'd recommend unless your still near your firing point or close to an escort, otherwise it might be smarter to just slowly go deeper say at 3 or 4 knts or even 2 for total silence as soon as your last fish has left the tubes, I find that being farther away from your firing point when the escort gets there and him having no idea where you went, even if you're only at 80 meters down is better than making a lot of noise while getting deeper because they will hear you going at flank speed and know your general heading from the firing point and thus be a lot closer to your sub when you do go silent.
I've noticed that keeping steely-calm and not making noise turns out to work better than following your instinct to get the hell out of dodge. But then not every situation is the same

btw in 39 and 40 (before radar) it pays to try a night-surface attack with decks awash even in GWX

[Brag]

I wait for the convoy to come to me. I like my first target to be at 1500-2500 meters so by the time I have fired 3-4 torpedoes they all explode close together. That's when I go flank , do the wiggle waggle, get as far away from datum point and as deep as possible and go silent.

I use exclusevely electric torps and unless I have a perfect AOB, I shoot under the ship for magnetic detonation. :rock:

[Genghis Khan]

Kaleuns,do those notorious tail bubbles of TI-G7A fish affect GWX ships/escorts AI behaviour in any way?As fas as I see,zig zagging starts only if you are:spotted/picked up on sonar by escorts/torpedo impacts any ship within a convoy.

[Avatar]

The most attacks I've made with a Type VII on one perticular convoy is 3. And that was because the third attack was going for one Large Cargo. I fired all forward torpedos each time, and on one occasion, I was able to use my stern torpedo for a finishing shot. Then I let the convoy slip by, surfaced, the did the end-around.

The best advice on an end-around is stay way abreast the escort sceen, way off so you can only see their masts.(I still use 6km visibility)

There really is no set outline for attack, for me. It evolves as more data is collected. But basically, I like to attack abeam, firing at furthest ships first(Range almost 2000m), then the closest(Range about 800-1000m). Get the best solution for the furthest ship, the second one is closer and has a better chance to hit than the furthest one. You'll be surprised at escort behavior when the furthest torpedo hits. They seem to be attracted to that one hit and forget about the rest, unless youre making all kinds of noise or you are counter-detected.

Concerning tail-bubbles: The above attack tactics worked in early morning hours with the steam powered torpedo. I was never pinged and no DD's came my way, even though I was running at ahead 1/3. However, once I shot at a DD that was listening for me and was going at about 6 kts. It was a perfect set-up, an almost 90degree angle, maybe 1200m. But it was in broad daylight with about sea level 2. He saw the bubbles and evaded my torpedo. This should be a lesson: Never fire at the midships of a DD in good sea states. Always use the fastest torpedo speed and aim well ahead, perhaps even at the anchor. Anyway, when the DD evaded, he came my direction but was off about a 45 degree track. Luckily, I was able to slink away, counting my blessings. Lesson learned!

edit: this is worth reading
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115981

[KeptinCranky]

Yep bubble trails wake em up real quick in broad daylight

example: during the Norway campaign there's a stationary British taskforce in a fjord, 3 DDs a Fiji CL and 3 juicy troop transports, I'd used my electrics to take out the DDs they never knew what hit them, so there was the Fiji that moved a bit but stopped again after all the Escorts went kerblooie, I fired 2 steamers at the Fiji, the weather was flat calm and broad daylight for this (I wasn't going to wait for the luftwaffe to steal my credit) It spots my eels I guess about 750 meters out, it immediately steps on the throttle, goes to 12 knots and the fish pass well astern :nope:

so yes they do notice and the lighter, more turnable ships ususally manage to evade

[Canovaro]

I get the impression that warships notice the bubbles and merchants don't but I could be wrong.

I also get the impression that often the bubble trail is only noticed after impact. Very often I attacked with electrics a short range and silently slipped away without ever being pinged.

I recommend using electrics against convoys and then slip away the slow and silent way.

[Jimbuna]

Get up as close as you are able without giving away your position.

Steam torpedoes obviously leave a (bubble wake) so only use these for merchantmen because they can't manouvre as easily as a warship.

Always have an electric in the aft tube for any warship attempting to run you down (especially those fitted with hedgehog) :arrgh!:

[Genghis Khan]

Kaleuns,I might frustrate you,but it seems that conning tower and periscope of your U-Boat are the actual things compromising you while targeting close in wavy sea at periscope depth,and not those mystic bubble trails of T-I G7A fish.

[Genghis Khan]

Electric fishes do lack damn lots of acceleration-14 knots at muzzle,and that causes great possibilities for evading them.My personal results with electrics are always much worse than using steam powered torpedoes.

[MarkShot]

What a wonderful thread ... this is precisely the problem I have been struggling with. Plotting a convoy intercept and getting inside or close to a convoy is not a problem, but those escorts have been forcing me down before getting a shot off!!! (as they should, by the way)

Is it possible to do scope observations before shooting or is it just position on sound bearing and then one observation and shoot?

I already know to be slow (1KTS) when going up scope. Also, I usually have the boat at 14-15 meters so it is at deep as possible when the scope itself breaks the water to avoid the possibility of the conning tower broaching.

As the original poster says, one cannot do anything but crawl around a convoy.

So, does anyone have any idea at what range non-alerted escorts can pick a U-boat at various speeds? Can I do 4tks at 5km, 10km, or 15km range?

The other thing I keep wondering about is does going deep play any role in the approach profile? In AOD, down at 230-240M the escorts can pass really close and not pick you up as you come in under the screen or they sweep over you. In SH1, there was similar tactics of coming below the thermal layer. Does depth play any role in the attack approach here? Beside their sensors will being deep avoid cavitation affects in SH3?

Thanks.

[Genghis Khan]

MarkShot,running on 2 knots is the only option of putting yourself to favourable attack position.Yes,you can rise periscope and observe.Your attack will be ruined immediately,if you turn on full ahead speed,no matter what depth is.Good Hunting!

[MarkShot]

Assuming one is trying to come in close for a shot like inside the convoy and is doing the silent/1kts thing, what is a safe depth to avoid conn/keel collisions. I am thinking somewhere between 40-50M?

Thanks.

[bigboywooly]

I have always found you get detected less at PD than deep
My observations
I usually raise a scope - sight a target and lower again
Make the solution raise then los
Another spread using the same technique - if possible - then dive deep
3\4 kts then down to 2 as I gain some depth

For those using the stealth meter remember the colour changes are only an indication that you COULD be heard at those speeds\depth\noise rather than you ARE detected
A lot of ppl make the mistake that when the stealth meter turns red you are already discovered and go flank etc to escape
All you are doing is ringing the dinner bell

I have in GWX been on the suface in the middle of a convoy in heavy fog
Running down the lanes while reloading torps from externals
Not realistic I know and ended with me being rammed by a DD that in all honesty I dont think knew I was there
The other escorts were way behind the convoy dropping DC at the time on nothing
Tis what happens when you get greedy
I had already sunk 3 tankers and a cargo from the convoy
Should have just slipped away but meh
Death or glory

[Genghis Khan]

Longer ranges (2000m-3000m) offer more options for targeting multiple ships.The closer you are,the more difficult targeting will be in reason of U-Boat's crawling 2 knot speed,compared to convoy's 5 or even 7 knots.If you speed up-you are compromised.

[MarkShot]

Not to mention, the less the angular distance between separate targets.

In AOD, if taking a distant shot you would try firing down a row of merchants. The reasoning being if you missed the target ship in the row, you might well hit something in the next column or two.

I wish with this game, there was a way without cheating of knowing better what your torpedos hit. I am pretty sure half the time, I am hitting something other than what I am aiming at. :)

[Genghis Khan]

Yes,this occurs sometimes.But you can always pick up a group of larger ships going in wedge formation and perform a massive launch from all tubes,each time aiming at another vessel.Best chances for quick and big tonnage.

[MarkShot]

Well, it looks like 35M is plenty of clearance for conn/keel; probably 25M would be okay. This shot was at 35M. This is probably my last attempt at an AOD style inside job. It just too dangerous (collisions). The convoy seems packed much tighter (although this should make row/ranged shots a better percentage option). Unlike AOD, the sonar plot is not updated instantaneously. With lots of ships, it's like trying to walk across a 10 lane super highway in heavy traffic at night.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/safe35m.jpg

[KeptinCranky]

That's not all that close, :D

this is:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/omf17235/images/realclose.jpg

that's a C3 or Large Cargo (in gwx) draft 9 meters IIRC
note the uboat is a IXB and the depth is 18 meters

I was by about 200 meters in my course calculations, this meant I had to step on the reverse or this cargo would have plowed right into my conning tower, watched it cross over my bow with 1 meter clearance through the scope, so 18 meters is deep enough for that, although a mite uncomfortable, in order for most (not all, most) merchants to clear your tower you only need to be about 25 meters down, any deeper and it takes too long to go to PD again. :D

[MarkShot]

I submit my 1941 Inside Attack Procedure. I am going to run through it a few more times. Tested daylight with a very calm sea state. Then, I am going to start working on outside flank attacks.

I make notes for all my sub games, since the subtle differences would make it impossible to freely switch between games otherwise.


***** Attack-1941 (inside) *****

(1) Positioned directly ahead.

(2) Make sure crew properly assigned; bridge watch.

(3) Calm seas then go to decks awash at 1kts/diesel.

(4) On spotting dive.

(5) When submerged, assign crew; electric propulsion,
torpedo rooms, and damage control.

(6) When submerged, go silent/1kts.

(7) Set up torpedoes.

(8) Halt dive at 26M.

(9) Set up two scopes for -30|+30 collision view. Just above the bridge.

(10) Slide past lead escort.

(11) When targets approach -40|+40 bearing come to 15M (this should be just
enough allow scope). Use observation scope to scan for collision;
especially if engine throbs are heard through the hull

(12) When at 14M, open outer doors.

(13) Scope up and find targets.

(14) Fire forward.

(15) Check for stern target.

(16) Withdraw scope and order a deep dive. Come 90 degrees about towards
tail of convoy.

(17) Sonar to track close warships.

(18) Personally, follow any close warships or ones lost in the your baffles.

(19) If DCs dropped directly overhead (personally listening) or event window
pops up. Immediately go to flank, if still shallow.

[KeptinCranky]

No event window for me, but points 18 and 19 are definitely important
all escort evasion should be done manually
I prefer to switch between hydrophone and map

the periscope trick is also good, hadn't thought about using the obs scope as well but that's really clever, you can even preset them for where a ship will be in the future when you want to fire say 1 minute in advance or so. especially good for that quick-fire sterntube shot

[MarkShot]

Well, I am still working on it.

What I have found is that you can use the attack and observation scopes independently except when you hit "L" to lock. Then, all targetting devices are slaved to the subject ship of the active view.

I had thought I could perhaps line up a target on the bow and the stern at the same time! :)

[KeptinCranky]

that you can, just don't lock, or lockat say 354 gyroangle, set the TDC for the rear tube, unlock, use attack scope to fire forward tubes, go back to obs scope, aim it at 0 gyro, hopefully there's a ship corssing now, don't lock and fire.

not sure if that'll work though, haven't tried it out, used to do some experimenting way back when in vanilla sh3 but no time for that with GWX

[MarkShot]

Does anyone know if the escorts can hear your tube doors being opened and flooded?

I ask, because if you have ever played DW/SC and watched on broadband sonar, you will see a definite band on the waterfall track when the tubes are being prepared to fire before you get the TIW.

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

Does anyone know if the escorts can hear your tube doors being opened and flooded?

I ask, because if you have ever played DW/SC and watched on broadband sonar, you will see a definite band on the waterfall track when the tubes are being prepared to fire before you get the TIW.

This proves especially useful in the game since only torpedoes generate a TIW. A subroc (underwater launched rocket which fast tracks a torpedo to your location by dropping it into the water) does not generate a TIW. So, if you get tubes being readied with no TIW on a Russian sub contact, he has just launched a subroc at you most likely. Also, the rocket itself generates a significant transient on that bearing as well.

Thanks.

[Canovaro]

(17) Sonar to track close warships.

I think the escorts will notice your sonar :-?
Or maybe you mean passive sonar / hydrophone?

[Avatar]

I get the impression that warships notice the bubbles and merchants don't but I could be wrong.



Merchants do try to avoid torpedoes. But I think they dont see them as far out as warships. My last patrol I had glass like seas, from doing the save alot trick, and in daylight a merchant tried to avoid my fish... with no luck.

[MarkShot]

I meant passive, of course.

[Avatar]

Let's not forget that time is on yourside, fellow Kaleuns. Unless youre being rundown by a fast or very fast convoy, you should pick the most opportune time and location. Data collect as much as you can and attack their weaksides.

Ex. I had a big convoy with medium escorts and chose to attack their weak side which happened to be the starboard rear area. I was able to run silent running off and at about 1/3 speed because I was bringing my stern tube to bear. No one picked me up, I can say this with absolute certain because I play with the detect-o-meter on and the little uboat didnt change color from green.

believe the nearest escort was about > 3km away.

[MarkShot]

About the meter, I am confused what it tells you (not using it at the moment):

(1) How much of a signature (stealthy) you are making in an absolute sense?

(2) How likely you are to be detected by those who are looking for you?

Also, what variables are considered for visual and sound? There are many.

Specifically, do these 8km and 16km mods affect the enemy's ability to detect you visually?

Thanks.

[Avatar]

1. In an absolute sense, you making a good deal of noise because...
2. the escorts are very good at picking you up.

Once I encountered a convoy had to make a quick turn and went ahead 2/3, submerged, and the escorts were about 2-3 km away and the detect-o-meter changed from green to red for about 3 seconds and they came directly looking for me. From what I hear, and know from experience, is that the DD's in GWX are tough.
I'm not sure about variables but I think you cant make too much noise even around large convoys where the SNR is loud without counterdetection.

edit: I dont think the km visibility affects their dectability. Unless they suddenly appear right on top of you, in which case this would be a timecompression problem. These are the only times that I know of when I've seen the uboat detector turn red with out warning.

[MarkShot]

Reminds me a bit of some of the stock missions/campaign in Sub Command. A booming voice announces over your speakers, "You've been counter detected!"

Yes, it does seem that time duration plays no role in their listening. The other day, I was practicing and I accidently hit "3" instead of "F3". Of course, I realized my mistake and fixed it almost instantly.

No matter. An escort came to my exact position and started pinging.

[Avatar]

I havent played DW or SC recently, but detection in sh3 acts almost in the same way. Make sure you crew is up to speed and you'll do much better, especially with detection/counter-detection.

I cant answer for the actual values in this or the AI algorithim, but their pretty damn good. Usually the first DC attack is the kill shot. After that too much of a noisy environment and they loose a bit. Once you get going after the 1st DC attack keep up the stealth. YOu have to manually use the sonar if you want to be ontop of just about everything.
edit: unless theyre pinging you, then no holds barred clear datum as fast as you can.

[u.Prestige]

There are two ideal ranges:
1500-3000 meters for targeting multiple ships, with TII or TIII. Usually distance between ships in a convoy is about 500 meters, a TII or TIII runs 927 meters per minute, which means it takes about 30 seconds to run 500 meters.
If you hit one ship in a convoy, all ships will zig-zag, making it harder to hit.
My way of attack: aim at the first target 2500 meters from you, launch torpedo and aim at second one which is 2000 meters from you, launch the second torpede on the second target when the first torpedo had been launched 30 seconds. Then two targets shall be hit almostly at the same time.
In GWX many ships still have weak points, so you are lucky enough, you can destory 4 ships in a single attack:damn:

The other ideal range is 300-500 meters, keep yourself in the middle of the convoy and aim at the weak points, one torpedo kills on ship:rotfl:

Weak points:
The most valuable merchant is LARGE MERCHANT, weak point is between the first mask and the bridge.
C2/C3 and cargos smaller than them: one torpedo is enough to sink them if you hit under the last mask.

[Avatar]

Excellent read, folks
Detection threshold is the key, then your attack

[Genghis Khan]

Well,I don't see any sense of getting inside a large convoy.You see,if you are within a convoy,and suddenly get compromised,a real mess is starting around.
All ships start zig zagging,one ship closes the line of fire into other ship and vice versa.In addition,you have got a pretty fast escorts inbound on your position.
And everything usually ends quite uselessly,all ships escape,or do such zig zaggs that you're simply unable to target them,escorts arrive at your position or force you to crash dive and turn 2 knot speed there.And all hunting ends at this point.

The real moment of truth is not getting yourself inside the convoy,but when you do a correct,predictable convoy interception course plotting.The ideal convoy attack position is not within,but outside a convoy,and such position maybe described by the following:

1.You start getting reports from Sonar Man,saying:"Merchant Closing"."Closing" means that you are already on correct course of interception.

2.There maybe visual contacts from observation officers on deck,saying "Ship Spotted".After that you may submerge to periscope depth or even deeper and get correct bearings as well as speed,distances of the rest ships inside a convoy.

3.At this point,you may rise a persicope and start planning an initial convoy torpedo attack.You are master of your own,you may do everything calm,without rushing or looking around for inbound escorts.You pick up valuable targets,set correct gyro angles,set torpedo depthes and speeds (for TI-G7A torpedo) and perform and sniper,marksman launch.And if you do everyting correctly,you may sink 3 or even more bigger ships.Moreover,it very important that you are unspotted at your attack position,you crash dive,evade escorts and may repeat an attack within next hours.Actually,you may destroy the whole convoy within several days.I think such precise strikes are the exactly those,a Type IX U-Boat was designed for- to follow a convoy and strike night after night.But each attack must be precise and successfull,as well as effective regarding to sunk ships quantity.And for all that,you need a favourable attack position,which is to my mind,always - outside a convoy.

That's just my personal opinion,you may disagree with.Good Hunting,Kaleuns!:D :up:

[MarkShot]

Genghis Khan,

Are you talking about distant submerged night attacks on convoys? If so, how do you do it, since it generally looks pitch black to me at night and I don't know how could target anything. Thanks.

[Genghis Khan]

MarkShot,I must admit,I do use targeting help,just rotate the periscope and search for target marks,if they are closing on my position,and valuable at the same time,I prepare a launch.But I think,that normal visibility is needed in any range of attack.

[Crimguy]

Let's not forget that time is on yourside, fellow Kaleuns. Unless youre being rundown by a fast or very fast convoy, you should pick the most opportune time and location. Data collect as much as you can and attack their weaksides.

I always seem to find the convoys when I'm low on fuel, so time is never on my side.

[MarkShot]

Targetting marks - you mean you are using the auto target option?

Myself, I am using the Weapons Officer. I suppose then, similar to you if I scanned the scope across the darkness, I could watch the contact type field change on the notebook. Then, simply lock it and shoot.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Genghis Khan]

MarkShot,you are right-that's auto targeting.And,I must say,I perform all attacks on my own,I mean- pick up valuable targets,set gyro angles.Target marks are those triangles,that change their colour according to gyro angle.I don't use my WO.

[MarkShot]

Okay, so you use the triangle to spot a ship.

Then, how do you ID, range it, AOB, and get speed in the darkness? Sorry, I am still confused.

Thanks.

[Genghis Khan]

MarkShot,there is a notebook in Right-Upper corner of UZO/attack periscope screen...all info regarding targeted ship is calculated and shown there.Auto Targeting,as I said before.Just point to a ship and all info will be shown there automatically.

[Crimguy]

MarkShot,there is a notebook in Right-Upper corner of UZO/attack periscope screen...all info regarding targeted ship is calculated and shown there.Auto Targeting,as I said before.Just point to a ship and all info will be shown there automatically.

Doesn't that take some of the fun away? The most satisfying thing for me has always been to get it in my sights, calculate the range/aob/speed and get a hit from 2500m (preferably with no duds).

[MarkShot]

I have spent the last couple of days practicing submerged inside (within the formation) attacks of convoys.

I just started with outside attacks. I can definite see the advantages of long range outside attacks:

(1) There usually appears to be a lead escort which you must clear to get in the formation. On the outside, the lead escort will naturally miss you. Of course, there are escorts coming up the flanks, but, at least, you are guaranteed to get a shot.

(2) Situational awareness is much better with the entire convoy in a narrow field of view as opposed to all around you. As was stated, you get a much better chance to pick and choose.

(3) I think as also stated a good displacement off to the flank negates your slow speed allowing you to adjust the angular bearing you need to keep your torpedo gyros in parameters.

(4) Shooting down a row is much easier to set up which increases your odds of hitting something.

I have to say as soon as I ran the first profile, I realized how much superior it is to attacking from the inside. In AOD, what made it so attractive is that if you made it past the screen, then you were as far as you could be from any escorts and stood a very good chance of stealthly evading out the back of the convoy.

It is a real pity that random zig-zag behavior was not built into the base course behavior of the convoy AI. That would have made setting up the attack so much more interesting:

(1) It would have taken a lot more work to establish a base course for convoy.

(2) Even though a base course was established, it would have been impossible to know exactly where to position your sub way in advance (I drew lanes of 1km out to 4km from the base course and just came in on the opposing course down the 4km line, then turned into the convoy). Thus, an attack would have require more than some map work, pre-positioning, rotation, and shoot. You would have been required to make an attack approach to adjust for variations upon the base course.

(3) Finally, despite a nice setup, a zig could blow an attack leaving all targets too far, or too close, or a zig could put one or more escorts coming straight over you. I've had all of this happen to me in AOD.

[MarkShot]

A sample of how easy the setup was:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/outsetup.jpg

[Jimbuna]

I read your post (2 up) with interest....I hope you'll not be offended by my observations but here goes:

A lot of hard work in setting up your attack I suspect....certainly more than is absolutely necessary.

'Situational awareness' IMO comes simply with gameplay experience and preferably a modicum of understanding in the RL U-boat tactics of WWII.

You are correct when you suggest that random zig zagging is not pre built into the base course behaviour of the convoy AI. However, there are many course changes scripted into covoy routes and it is not uncommon for a convoy to suddenly change course just as the player has got his firing solution worked out. Addittionally, once a convoy becomes aware of the presence of a U-boat the convoy automatically commences zig zagging.

Whilst aknowledging how fine a game AOTD is/was I don't fully understand the repeated comparisons......IMHO it is like comparing apples with pears.

My understanding is that this is a thread dedicated to the range for convoy torpedo attacks in GWX v1.03.

I offer these comments in a constructive context and without any intention that they become an issue of contention.

Regards
Jimbuna

[Genghis Khan]

Doesn't that take some of the fun away? The most satisfying thing for me has always been to get it in my sights, calculate the range/aob/speed and get a hit from 2500m (preferably with no duds).

Yes,you are right,that does steal a piece of realism from GWX.But,you should understand me,I have been playing SHIII for just 2.5 months already,and I am still far away from that level of U-Boat commanding,when you can do everything just in the same way as legedary U-Boat Aces did during the World War II.I am just trying to reach all things step by step.

For the present time,it's quite challenging even to plot a correct,successfull interception course,attack a convoy,and evade without being spotted.I think my first goal in playing GWX is to learn the basics of U-Boat warfare,master them to the cutting edge,and then add all additional realism options.It's always easier to do a harder job,when you know how to do an easier similar one.:)

And,for ideal convoy attack distance,in any case,I think the proper range for the first torpedo launches should be around 2000-3000 meters.The key idea of U-Boat warfare is not a "face to face" attack,but exactly a silent hunting.That means,enemy must be absolutely calm until the first torpedoes hit their targets.
If you get inside a convoy,both theoretically and practically you may hit only one target unspotted due to reasons I already mentioned:

*You lack speed very much in the reason of running at 2 knot speed compared to the reasonable 5 or even 7 knots speed of the convoy.

*After the first torpedo impacts all convoy will be alerted.

I am still after my first patrol on October 14th,1939 with my Type IXB U-123.And I will not even try to attack at closer ranges than 2000 meters,unless the conditions are lottery winning.Cause convoy attack is a real lottery,because you are far not advantageous to all those ships,I mean you must be slow,you must be down,you must be far away...unless you are compromised and either escape or get sunk.

Kaleuns,all you need for a successfull convoy torpedo attack is a correctly plotted interception course and a proper moment to launch your torpedoes at multiple targets.All other tricks,I mean getting inside a convoy,running just under the keels of merchants are usually a useless gaming which brings no success...as you spoil everything at once after the first activity at such close distances.

And never mind,what time of day,what weather it is.You need a correct convoy attack preparation,and that only moment,that decides everything-the moment of truth.

I will write down here the results of further distanced convoy torpedo attacks as soon as I get my U-123 out for the next patrols.

Good Hunting :D:up:

[Maraz]

Well,I don't see any sense of getting inside a large convoy.

Well, biggest ships are usually in the inner columns of the convoy.

Using manual targeting, shooting at those ships is quite difficult from outside the convoy.

Maybe in late war It will get too risky to go into the convoy, and I will be compelled to hit the smaller ships in outer columns, now it's march 1940 in my career so I prefer going inside.

Only in one case (last patrol) I found a convoy with really juicy targets in the external column (some large merchants), I stayed outside the convoy while attacking this one.

Maraz

[Genghis Khan]

Well,I don't see any sense of getting inside a large convoy.

Well, biggest ships are usually in the inner columns of the convoy.

Using manual targeting, shooting at those ships is quite difficult from outside the convoy.

Maybe in late war It will get too risky to go into the convoy, and I will be compelled to hit the smaller ships in outer columns, now it's march 1940 in my career so I prefer going inside.

Only in one case (last patrol) I found a convoy with really juicy targets in the external column (some large merchants), I stayed outside the convoy while attacking this one.

Maraz

I am talking according to my personal experience.I have spoiled numerous attacks on large convoys,when I was trying to come close enough.Reasons were different-
the conning tower of my U-Boat was spotted,periscope was spotted,I was picked up on sonar by escorts and so on.

And all attacks commenced from 2000-3000 meters were very successful.There were 2 - 3 large ships always sunk without being compromised.

Convoys formations are quite different.For instance,when I sunk 3 large merchants during my last convoy interception - all of them were on the flank and in close formation,ideal for long range torpedo launches. :)

[MarkShot]

Jimbuna,

My profession is computer systems design. Although I have designed some massively multi-player gaming systems, these were not in the class of simulations. I have written game strategy guides, since the early 1990s and have participated as a beta tester of games, since 2000.

So, I cannot help but to compare designs of games that fall into similar categories with both professional and personal interest. I mean no offense to those fans of SH3 or to those fantastically talented people who developed GWX. Although I have played SHCE and SH2/PA (also SC and SC/SCXIIC/SCU), I do find the most interesting comparisons for SH3 are with AOD.

Game design issues are fascinating such as the decision to go 3D with SH3 (SH2/SC/DW 3D is highly limited), the introduction of crew management, but the lack of wolf packs ...

Equally interesting is how techniques which are highly effective in one game prove to practically useless in another. Of course, ideally a completely accurate simulation of the realworld by different designers/developers would lead to identical results.

So, that's the way I am. I know quite a few small independent game developers and time permitting we correspond about game design issues.

Once again, no offense meant. I am having fun with SH3/GWX. I am also looking forward to trying out NYGM and WAC too.

[Jimbuna]

Posted from the other thread ;)


No problem kaleun :nope:
I have responded to your PM. I am unaware if you have also contacted the Kpt. but if you have I am sure he will respond at his earliest convenience :yep:
You sir appear to be a gentleman :up:

Sadly, the written word can sometimes be perceived in a few ways too many :know:

Calm seas and fair winds

Salute
Jimbuna :arrgh!:

[MarkShot]

Yesterday, I just realized that it is actually possible to closely follow three escorts at once without using the map display. (I programmed the SO commands onto my keyboard.)

Tracking three escorts from the hydrophone station simultaneously:

(1) Set SO to track the closest. SO will continue to track the same escort even when it ceases to be closest.

(2) Repeatedly hit the SO report key to track the true closest escort.

(3) In the meantime, manually use the hydrophone control to track a third escort.

What I need to do is get a better handle on is what the various escort sounds mean (for example):

(1) Screws go to top RPM - are they alerted? Is it an attack run?

(2) Screws go very slowly and almost sound like they are reversing? (I have seen escorts reverse.) Are they camping out listening?

Also, how does the SO know whether a ship is closing or withdrawing? I know that sound exhibits a doppler (frequency shift), but I cannot hear the difference. Anyone hear a difference?

Finally, does each ship model have its own unique sound? I noticed that the escorts don't all seem to sound the same to me.

The ultimate question ... do damaged ships sound any different? So, I have hurt a ship and outlasted the escorts is there anyway I can use the hydrophone to identify the damaged ship so that I can find it and finish it off?

Thanks.

[Foghladh_mhara]

I shoots them from 500m and watches them go bang:rock:

[Crimguy]

EDIT - Looks like he answered for himself in a similar vein. Gotta read ahead nex time ;-D
*****

Jimbuna - with all due respect to markshot (and I mean this in a light-hearted way), he's an AI junkie. He likes to figure out what the AI does right and wrong. Sometimes he intentionally finds ways to break the ai. A good example was with Take Command: 2nd Manassas, a real-time American Civil War game. He pointed out a flaw in the way the AI handled river crossings on offense, and ever since learning that, I was never able to lose a battle on terrain that involved a river crossing.

So I imagine Mark's comments are geared solely to the nuts and bolts of the game, i.e. how realistic its' detection routines are, how effectively it prosecutes a target, etc. I think it's much more a critical analysis than any type of bashing.

I've known him for at least 4-5 years online. We seem to gravitate to the same war games. Always polite, always helpful too. While people like me just turn the game on and try to win, he takes a more academic approach.

I think I'd smack him in Unreal Tournament 2004 though:rock:

I read your post (2 up) with interest....I hope you'll not be offended by my observations but here goes:

A lot of hard work in setting up your attack I suspect....certainly more than is absolutely necessary.

'Situational awareness' IMO comes simply with gameplay experience and preferably a modicum of understanding in the RL U-boat tactics of WWII.

You are correct when you suggest that random zig zagging is not pre built into the base course behaviour of the convoy AI. However, there are many course changes scripted into covoy routes and it is not uncommon for a convoy to suddenly change course just as the player has got his firing solution worked out. Addittionally, once a convoy becomes aware of the presence of a U-boat the convoy automatically commences zig zagging.

Whilst aknowledging how fine a game AOTD is/was I don't fully understand the repeated comparisons......IMHO it is like comparing apples with pears.

My understanding is that this is a thread dedicated to the range for convoy torpedo attacks in GWX v1.03.

I offer these comments in a constructive context and without any intention that they become an issue of contention.

Regards
Jimbuna

[MarkShot]

AI - sadly, that is something that both the SH2/PA and SH3/GWX teams were unable to get their hands on. Thus, being reduced to strive for realistic behavior via changing data values for sensors, units, and weapons parameters.

That was one nice things about how Sonalysts implemented Sub Command allowing modders to develop SCXIIC (Sub Command Extreme). The AI behavior was actually in many cases determined by interpreted doctrine files (with their own special language) called by various platforms and weapons as the game was played. (Of course, the downside of this it requires significantly more CPU cycles than hardcoding your AI in the EXE.)

So, for example, in stock Sub Command, AI subs evaded torpedoes by simply going to flank and running directly away from the torpedo. Unless, it was very long range shot, this was a very low percentage form of evasion, since if the weapon doesn't run out of fuel it will overtake eventually. Yes, counter measures would be dropped too, but the whole point of counter measures is to cause the weapon to take a course different than the target takes. Well, the SCX mod team changed the evasion doctrine and added a lateral component to the evasion. This allowed the evading AI to both open the distance from the launching platform, but most importantly allowed the target an opportunity to get outside of the torpedo's seeker cone before the weapon got into homing range.

---

Crimguy, I've already spoken with the GWX team and advised them that I was not degrading their very impressive efforts to improve this game ... taking it from simply a visual feast to a means to better understanding something of what went in the u-boat war. Thanks, anyway. :)

[siber]

Hi all!

Was reading with interest. I thought I'd add my tuppenny's worth on my experiences with convoys. But understand that I don't get to play as often as I'd like (demands of gf!) so I'm in a Type VIIB in 1939/1940 before the escorts get REALLY good... However, I'm on 86% realism with manual targetting, no stealth meter etc, so it's not as easy as all that...

What I generally do is head toward where a convoy is thought to be... (from radio report or sound contact at 20km distance) until I'm within about 5-10km of the outside escorts. I then go to periscope depth and listen for a few minutes. If I find the convoy, I use the map-marker to plot where a ship in the main body is. Then, after a minute or so, I plot again. Repeating three or more times will give you a number of plots in a line. Extend this line about 20-30km and head for that point, initially parallel to the convoy (or heading slightly away from its course in case of side escorts running out at you) and then perpendicular to its course. When I reach the extended line, I dive to 15m and continue at 1kt at slow speed, listening for the convoy.

With any luck (90% of the time for me), you'll pick them up again still heading on the same course. If not, start the tracking/positioning procedure again. Put the scope up occasionally to scan the horizon in the direction of the sound. The first ship you see should be the front escort. At this point, rig for silent running and order all stop, ensuring that you are at least 14m down to prevent floating up and your conning tower poking up above the surface. Sit and wait for the front escort to pass, resisting the temptation to fire the electric eel in your stern tube at him. There are better things coming...

The rest of the convoy should be about 1km behind the front man. Upon spotting them you should be able to determine whether you're near the centre of the group. If not, but you're pointing in the right direction, go slow at 1 or 2 kts to creep forwards. If you've gone past the central columns of the convoy, resist the urge to turn around. I've tried, but found that at slow speed I can't make it round in time to plot solutions, and at faster speeds the escorts hear you in the water and come running... You'll just have to be satisfied with small merchants on the outside screen, and perhaps have a pop at a centre column with your stern tube... However, if you're fortunate or cunning, you'll have ended up with at least some of the larger ships passing only 300-600min front of you. For big ones, a spread of four will give a significant chance of sending them down, but if there are small/medium targets, I normally send two fish off slowly towards a ship in the column beyond the one in front, and then two fast shots at a target right in front of me. I'd estimate that, with my ropey shooting, about 75% of close shots hit, but only 25% of long shots. Occasionally however, a missed shot at a large merchant will (through nothing more than luck!) run into a smaller ship on the outer columns. This has happened to me twice before.

Generally I find that being in the middle of the convoy offers you some protection, as it takes the escorts a good couple of minutes to get there from their stations. I've had torpedoes hit before and then waited for the next ship in column to come up and shot at that too before I head down to safety. I crash dive to 150m then switch to silent and use the last bit of speed to turn 100 degrees left or right. The crew aren't reloading as we're still on silent running, and then I can generally creep off silently towards the back of the convoy. Once the escorts have given up trying to find me (often I don't even get pinged) I come up to periscope depth, scan the horizon and then reload the tubes. If a ship I know I've hit hasn't sunk, I'll hang around the back of the convoy - diving briefly if my watch spots the rear escort - to see if a wounded merchant drops out the back. If so, the deck gun finishes her off, but then the rear escort usually comes (belatedly) to try to help, and I might get depth charged again.

Once this is done, I start the whole process again until I'm out of torpedoes, fuel or patience. Generally I'll head back when I'm down to 2 torps remaining, saving them for any chance encounters on my way back to Kiel around Scotland.

Anyone agree with this tactic? If find it opens up the centre of the convoy to attack, although there's a greater risk of ramming while you're sitting still at periscope depth, waiting for the convoy to pass. However, generally I manage to get 10-15k tonnes per patrol using this method, one big ship and a couple of smaller ones. Or would I be better taking long shots from the edges of the convoy?

[Genghis Khan]

The first ship you see should be the front escort.

The ideal situation is when you see main convoy formation first and both front and rear escorts are at your far flanks.This is,a so to say,triangular scheme when you are in the main angle and escorts are in the rest two angles,and convoy itself is forming a entire line between those angles.

Any escort must never be approaching you.You see they are making very sophisticated zig zaggs in GWX and may spot you even if you run very silently.

[Maraz]

[quote=siber]Anyone agree with this tactic?
[quote]

I use very similar tactics. I have a ship that is my main objective (usually one of the biggest ships of the convoy, of course) and my aim is to sink it, so I manoeuver to be in good position so shoot at it from very close distance (700 m or less). If I can hit something else that's good, but it's secondary.

Often firing at the second column of ships is difficult (ships tend to be shadowed by nearest column) so often I am happy with sending a stern torpedo to one of the (usually smaller, but not always) ships in the external column.

Usually I end a convoy attack with two ships sunk, or one sunk and one damaged. I do not try to reload, escape silently escorts (I avoid going to crah dive if I am not in immediate danger), and surface when the escorts have finished chase. Usually I still have sound contact with the convoy so, if I have torpedoes and fuel, I start again the approach procedure.

I am still in 1940 too, in later days I believe it will become harder to go into the convoy.

Maraz

[MarkShot]

Okay, I have done some testing (via custom missions) with a single destroyer, my sub, and the stealth meter. As has been said, you can only approach so close before they pick up passive no matter how quiet you are trying to be. Roughly, it seems that you have 1000M clearance in extremely heavy seas and 500M clearance in calm seas. I didn't get any time to experiment with scope spotting ability.

For calms seas, here are some data points of safe travel:

2kts - 1km
4kts - 3km
6kts - 6km

Now, here is the problem. The escorts can travel from 16-32KTS. In the meantime, your sub is practically standing still relative to their speed. So, how to make sure that:

(1) You don't end up within 1km of an escort and it performs its screening duties?

(2) How to be positioned well for a shot well maximizing your distance from the escorts?

One thing from my experimentation which seems clear is that, you need to predict escort positions when the convoy is furthest away, since this affords the opportunity move at a few times faster rate and when one considers the time available, this is your best chance to set yourself up. The nearer the escorts approach, it seems your options to influence the situation rapidly dimish in an exponential fashion.

I remember for Silent Hunter I, someone had done and posted a very detailed analysis of escort screening behavior. So, does anyone have any insights into how a screen works in SH3/GWX? I don't have a good sense of this. Do escorts remain in certain set quadrants? Do they keep pace generally with the convoy? Do they race ahead and then slow while standing guard? I can see that their behavior in SH3 is more sophisticated that than the escorts of SH2 which maintained precise formation until the moment of detection.

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

Does anyone press the attack if detected?

Despite my best efforts an escort crept up on me, but I was also in an excellent position to shoot. So, I waited until he began his DC charge, then went to flank only getting slightly ruffled by the attack, up scope, shoot, and crash dive.

[melnibonian]

Does anyone press the attack if detected?
Early in the war I do. After 1943 though if detected I go deep and try to survive.

[Maraz]

Yesterday, I just realized that it is actually possible to closely follow three escorts at once without using the map display. (I programmed the SO commands onto my keyboard.)

Tracking three escorts from the hydrophone station simultaneously:

(1) Set SO to track the closest. SO will continue to track the same escort even when it ceases to be closest.

(2) Repeatedly hit the SO report key to track the true closest escort.


Can you explain to me which is the command you use to have a report of closest warship?

I am only able to get tracking of closest warship.

Thanks
Maraz

PS yesterday I had my first convoy attack in heavy fog and rain, I stayed submerged (too afraid of meeting an escort a short range) on the convoy's path, bearing perpendicularly to the reported track. Attack periscope at 1x trying to spot something, obs periscope 1x at 90° to check if some ship was going to ram me.

I checked incoming ships manually with the hydrophone.

I shoot from very close distance at two ghosts I saw in the fog, that turned out being a small merchant and a C3. Both sunk. Saw also a C2 on my stern but too late to fire. Then I submerged silently, the escorts had no clue about where I was.

Wow that was scaring!!! :D

[MarkShot]

Actually, I have am finding Normal Scan with repeatedly hitting the report nearest warship key (user defined) being hit to the optimum way to play for maintaining the best SA.

Use the Setkeys, to define keys for Normal Sweep, Report Nearest Warship, etc... There is even an estimate range key which you can use on sonar contact.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/setkey.jpg