Definitive torpedo depth/exploder status in 1.2

[nomad_delta]

I've read through dozens of threads concerning this topic in the forums, some of which were posted before 1.2 was released and some after, and haven't been able to come up with any definite or final answers -- thus the new thread. So here's what I'd like to establish with some kind of certainty, as of patch 1.2. Also note that while I'd love to discuss what was true in reality and historically, for the purposes of this thread I'm primarily concerned with what is currently true in-game and as of patch 1.2:

1. Does changing the exploder setting to Contact or Contact/Influence do anything at all?

a. If it does make a difference, does it work correctly? (I've read in several threads that the setting may actually be reversed in 1.2; that is, when you set it to Contact it actually does Magnetic and vice-versa)

b. If the Contact/Influence setting does anything at all, does it ever work properly in game, and is it ever beneficial to actually use it?


2. What measurement/unit is the torpedo depth dial displayed in (feet? meters?) and does the unit/measurement change when the game is set to Imperial or Metric or does it always use one or the other?

3. Is a ship's "draft" the distance that it extends below the waterline, and is that (in theory) what I should be using to determine my torpedo's depth settings?

a. Is there a consistent part of all ships draft that is best to hit?, such as: "as low as possible without going under" or "dead center of the ship's draft" or does it vary with each ship? If it varies, where can I find this information for each ship type?

b. Where can I find accurate ship draft measurements for all ships that actually work in the game? I've noted that the measurements listed in the printed manual don't match the measurements presented in the in-game ship ID manual, and I have serious doubts about whether either of those accurately reflect what's actually modelled in the game, much less actual historical values. I'd be happy with any available method of solving this, such as a mod that corrects either (1) the ship models to make the drafts match the measurements in the in-game ID manual or (2) a mod that corrects the in-game ID manual to match the actual ship model drafts, or some combination thereof. I did find a mod that was supposed to correct the Jap ship model sizes, but it seemed to only related to the use of the stadimeter and not to draft lengths.

In the end what I'm really after here is to have my torpedos more reliably make contact with the "optimal damage spot" on the ships I'm firing at, but more importantly I'd like to understand how the system really works -- whether it's working as intended or not. At this point I think it's equally likely that I'm either just doing something wrong, or that there are one or more bugs still in the torpedo system that are confusing me.

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts/ideas. Maybe when I get home I'll try to run some controlled testing to get some actual hard data to work with.

Cheers!

nomad_delta

[GTHammer]

3. Is a ship's "draft" the distance that it extends below the waterline, and is that (in theory) what I should be using to determine my torpedo's depth settings?

a. Is there a consistent part of all ships draft that is best to hit?, such as: "as low as possible without going under" or "dead center of the ship's draft" or does it vary with each ship? If it varies, where can I find this information for each ship type?


I've be planning on running some new tests to try and get some of these answer myself. The above is the only part I can definitively answer at the moment.

3. The draft measurement is the depth the ship extends beneath the surface.

a. If you are using contact torpedos or wish for them to make contact and then detonate it is best to hit low, under any armored belt if the ship has one. However, for maximum damage a torpedo should explode underneath the keel, thus directing all of its energy into the ship. For this to occur the torpedo must past just beneath the keel. Or at least thats how it should work...I'm off to fire off loads of torps on diff settings. We'll see how it goes.

[Jaber]

Great thread! I think there are a lot of us out here with these same questions.

I started getting much better torp effectiveness once I switched to 'Contact' setting and aiming for low (but not under). Previously when I had set to Influence the torps would explode too early or seem to not induce much damage....

[SirMoric]

Yes, the magnetic exploder works. I've used it from time to time and been succesfull a couple of times putting large holes in the bottom of ships and even breaking them apart.

I'm not keen on using them though, since I don't like "loosing" torpedoes to faulty devices, especially not after I've begun using 100 pct realism where my accuracy is rather bad and only one hitting in a spread of four need to explode.

rgds

[GTHammer]

Ok well here's what I've found out after a few rather infuriating efforts. Apparently my computer has issues with the external view, no matter how low I set the graphics settings....:shifty:

Anyway...The Mogami Heavy Cruiser from the training mission is listed as having a draft of 4.4 meters. This converts to approximately 14.44 feet. I fired a number of torpedos at the target to determine the depth required for the torp to pass under keel. I did jump from 25 feet to 28 feet, decided to for go the foot by foot thing. My torp set for contact+influence passed under the keel without exploding. Sadly my computer crashed shortly after I watched this occur. However after rebooting and reloading I fired another torpedo set to run at 28 feet and to explode by contact alone. This torpedo passed 1/3 of the way under the keel and then exploded. I had read something about this before. Apparently the switch is backwards or setting for contact gives you only influence...(Didn't have the patience for another reboot and reload to fire one set on contact that actually hit the side.) Oh yeah and duds were off.

So in conclusion....1. The draft depths in the manual/chart are off. The dial has to be set in feet because 28 meters would have been way to deep. 2. Torpedos set to explode by contact+influence don't, they will explode by influence when set to contact though....

This info is pertinent to 1.2 without any mods affecting ship dimensions or torp stats. Oh and if anyone has any ideas why my computer likes to crash while I'm in the external camera...feel free to chime in...Thanks

[Jaber]

Ok, I got home a bit ago and tried this a number of times. First off I am using SH4 1.2 with mod RFB 1.27 at 100% realism (no map contacts and external camera unchecked) but with the original Torpedoes_US.sim.

I performed the testing using the torp training within the school using the S class sub. I performed the test 12 different times (total of 48 torps) with various Contact and Influence settings/depths.

What I noticed is I never had a 'Contact' only torp go off 'early.' Typically Influence/Contact torps would only go off if very close to the hull, if at all (unless direct contact.)

What I did have is a problem with the selector switch staying in the ‘Contact’ position. When I clicked to a different torp and came back it would be selected back to the default Contact/Influence position. Sometimes it would take 4-5 tries before it would stay there. Maybe this fault was only my computer, but this could explain some of the issues we are all experiencing with the Contact and Influence settings…

On another note it was interesting see the failure rate of the orginal torpedoes_US.sim; about a 1 in 5 failure during the brief testing I did. And those seemed to me a mix of duds or bad gyro. (this does not take into account any 'dud' influence detections).

[The Avon Lady]

Somebody yesterday on the SH4 Mods forum posted this link:

US NAVY TORPEDOES, by Frederick J Milford, Part Two: The great torpedo scandal, 1941-43 (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm).

As it says, historically both exploder types and the depth mechanism were messed up untill later in the war.

So the question is if these are bugs imitating reality or reality imitating buigs? :p

As far as the exploder switch not keeping its position between switch screens or torps, this is definitely a bug. In SH3, the equivalent switch retained its position. But both games suffer also from the torpedo settings not being saved between game sessions, which is a pity.

[nomad_delta]

I've noticed the exact same problem with the game not 'remembering' the Contact/Influence setting on each torpedo. Mine does the same thing -- every time I change torpedos it resets it back to the default. I end up having to change the setting on each torpedo right before I fire it.

nomad_delta

[Jaber]

...As it says, historically both exploder types and the depth mechanism were messed up untill later in the war....


It was interesting that I did notice quite a bit of variation to torps that were set to the same depth. Some higher/lower than other ones. At first I thought draft of the ship was off, but really think after all the talk it was the depth mechanism. You think this was actually programmed in to be off just a tad sometimes...?

What eles interesting out of all of the testing tonight isthe importance of a spread across a ship to destroy it effectively (with contact). You could land all 4 torps dead center with no sink... It was also impressive to watch how fast the ship went down when the Influence actually did work. Zip!

[spdklls]

;)I asked about this once before.;)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=518731#post518731

Since then I've discovered that the recog manual is just plain wrong about the draft on certain ships.:damn: Heavy seas will often cause your torps to go low, but if you have the correct draft for a ship and set torpedo depth 1 - 3 ft under this, the results are very dramatic. Many ships will split in two with one shot under the keel:rock:, as opposed to four or five into the sides. The mag detonator seems to need to be within 5 ft to actually work though. I think this is the problem when playing metric measures. One notch on the dial in imperial is one foot, while on metric one notch would be almost four feet.:hmm: You don't have fine enough control on metric, causing a lot of low misses.:down:

[nomad_delta]

spdklls: So you've actually been able to somewhat reliably get magnetic detonations by setting torpedo depths to 1-3 feet below the ship's draft? Just to confirm, are you setting your torpedos to Contact or Contact/Influence for this? (there was some speculation that the setting might be reversed, so if you're getting actual magnetic detonations that should confirm whether or not that's true)

I guess that brings us right back to my original question #3b, "Where can I find accurate ship draft measurements for all ships that actually work in the game?" -- without accurate values for the ship drafts in the game, all of the other questions become moot.

I wonder if there's a way to pull the information directly from the game data files?

nomad_delta

[nomad_delta]

I just thought of another important question to add to my original list:

4. Does the year during which you are playing have any effect on torpedo running depths? I've read in several threads that historically there were many problems with torpedos during the early years of the war, including inaccurate depth mechanisms -- but it's never been really clear to me whether and how that might actually be modelled in the game. In particular most historical documents I've read (including that excellent link that The Avon Lady posted) suggested that MK14 torpedos were running 5-11ft below their intended depths due to calibration problems. Does anyone know whether the game actually tries to replicate the 1941-1943 torpedo depth issues?

[spdklls]

spdklls: So you've actually been able to somewhat reliably get magnetic detonations by setting torpedo depths to 1-3 feet below the ship's draft? Just to confirm, are you setting your torpedos to Contact or Contact/Influence for this? (there was some speculation that the setting might be reversed, so if you're getting actual magnetic detonations that should confirm whether or not that's true)
nomad_delta
I had it set to mag influence/contact, the default. Sorry I wasn't clear on that!!

[wstaub]

spdklls: So you've actually been able to somewhat reliably get magnetic detonations by setting torpedo depths to 1-3 feet below the ship's draft? Just to confirm, are you setting your torpedos to Contact or Contact/Influence for this? (there was some speculation that the setting might be reversed, so if you're getting actual magnetic detonations that should confirm whether or not that's true)
nomad_delta
I had it set to mag influence/contact, the default. Sorry I wasn't clear on that!!
And for Me I need it to be set to Contact only to get the Magnetic Detonation. This just goes to show that the game reacts differently for some people.

# Follow-up on Post 20

[-Pv-]

I use only the combo setting on a non-modded game. I always shoot to hit as low as possible and when the torp has the good luck to pass under (because this torp worked, or the wave action was favorable) I get very nice destruction from proximity only detonation. Is it possible I'm getting an invisible contact detonation rather than prox? Yes.

An advantage of using the combo setting is if I fail to get it under, I will get a good contact hit low on the hull. I've yet to use more than 3 torps to sink any medium size ship. The two pax liners I've taken out so far were done both in very stormy weather with two torps. From my understanding reading the 1.3 patch list, I infer that there are discrepancies between the logical draft and the visual model so torps can "appear" to pass under visually or early when approaching the target and still explode when set to contact. It may be that the setting isn't reversed as much as the visual observation is not accurate as to what's actually happenening. Possibly the ship is larger or lower in the water in the logic than the visual.

An example of getting easily confused by observation alone was the convoy halt bug after the 1st explosion. It surprised many of us to learn it was because we sank the command ship and the AI was slow to select a new command ship to set the course and speed to escape.
-Pv-

[spdklls]

spdklls: So you've actually been able to somewhat reliably get magnetic detonations by setting torpedo depths to 1-3 feet below the ship's draft? Just to confirm, are you setting your torpedos to Contact or Contact/Influence for this? (there was some speculation that the setting might be reversed, so if you're getting actual magnetic detonations that should confirm whether or not that's true)
nomad_delta
I had it set to mag influence/contact, the default. Sorry I wasn't clear on that!!
And for Me I need it to be set to Contact only to get the Magnetic Detonation. This just goes to show that the game reacts differently for some people.
:hmm: Do you play imperial or metric? I really think there is a conversion in the game code that isn't being done from metric to imp. Why on earth would the depth dial go to 50 when playing metric?:hmm: I doubt any ship ever had a draft of 200 feet!:doh:

Seriously though, are you positive the torpedo went under the keel without touching at all? It's very dificult for me to tell sometimes with the camera view.

Also, has anyone seen a mag detonate when passing next to a ship? In my exp., influence only works when passing directly under a ship, while in real life physics a magnetic field extends in all directions ( like a circle around it) with strength evenly decreasing with distance. In other words, those 'near misses' due to a DD turning sharply or speeding up should still det the warhead and blow the screws off or the rudder or something. I've seen torps go right by a ship so close you could reach out and touch it if you were riding it but not detonate:damn:. Only if the exploder goes directly under the ship's keel will it magnetically detonate (that I've seen). Can anyone confirm/ disprove this?

Do the torps in the game have a top & bottom? I mean do they always come out the tubes in the same orientation, without any spinning or twisting? Could they only sense a mag field to the top and det., with fields to the sides/ bottom not det.? I hope someone can shed some light on this for me.:sunny:

[NefariousKoel]

To answer a question, yes, the game factors in a variation of torpedo depth. I believe it's a percentage so the lower you set it, the more variation. FYI.

[GTHammer]

As to my previous post early on, since that time I have experienced torpedo's exploding while passing under the keel on both settings. I have also experienced(Even with Duds off) torpedo's at both settings passing just under the keel and not detonating. So anymore I just set 'em to contact+influence and aiming as low as possible. My comp likes to crash when i am in external cam so I haven't been able to run too many tests though...I guess we'll have to wait until 1.3 then check things out then. They are suposably going to fix the ship dimension stuff with 1.3...

[Tronics]

I think that the primitive magnetic detonators are designed to detonate when they cross the invert threshold of a magnetic field, aka where N and S flip, thus telling it quite ovbiously that 'it's time to explode now'.

As for the topedo depth gauge I believe it's done in feet. But I've been getting crappy results with it, mostly due to the apparent futility of the early war magnetic detonators.

That and recently in anything other then my S-class career it seems that I have a higher then normal rate of 'drastic torpedo failures'...

I had one explode about 15 yards out of the tube and cripple the USS Drum's foreward torpedo tubes.

[wstaub]

Okay I went back and tested again and here are my results with JP Dimension fix 1.2 and RFB 1.27 enabled. When I set the Torp in training mission to Contact Influence and depth of 20 feet I get a perfect detonation. Same Depth Contact only no impact, so I was wrong on what I said before I guess.

If Any other people can test using the same factors I would appreciate it.

[UnSalted]

I played around in the sub school this evening firing off about 2 dozen shots. I looked at the Mogami's draft of 4.4 meters, converted that to roughly 14 1/2 feet and started with 12 feet of depth on the torps. I set the torp speed on Slow to have more time to set up the camera views.

4 fired at 12 feet - 4 hits, all just above the hullblisters and one noticably higher by about 3 feet. All seemed to do about the same damage although one was a one-hit instant sinker.

4 fired at 13 feet - 4 hits all just above the hullblister, all seemed to be within 2 feet of each other. Pretty consistent.

4 fired at 14 feet - 4 hits, one below the blister, 2 above and one hit the blister I think.

4 fired at 15 feet - 4 hits, 1 above the blister, 1 on the blister, 1 below the blister and one looked dead under the keel. Oddly enough, all took out chunks except the one that went off under the keel....no damage under there that I could find.

4 fired at 16 feet - 3 hits, one in the blister so it was 2 feet high or more, one under the blister and above the keel, and one dead under the keel....THAT was impressive. Didn't sink right away but there was a large hole through the keel between the port and starboard blisters.

4 fired at 17 feet - 2 hits, one under the keel and one on the blister, 2 under the keel passed right on by and both seemed to be at least 4 feet under the keel.

So to me it seems clear that:

a) The depth setting for the torps is in feet

b) the draft is pretty accurate on the Mogamis at least

c) setting it just above the draft depth seems to give you pretty good hits with large holes and sometimes one shot kills even on larger ships

d) I'll keep on setting the torps at the draft or maybe a foot under there.

[popeye]

i still havnt seen any draft information. is there a littler recognition book like before? that was super handy. did someone steal it from us? or does the german navy just have superior intelligence.

[UnSalted]

I get the draft info I use from the printed manual that came packaged with the game. The length/width/height/draft of each type of ship is shown along with their pictures.

[popeye]

mine had no such thing. i got the chinese version.

[spdklls]

popeye: i still havnt seen any draft information. is there a littler recognition book like before? that was super handy. did someone steal it from us? or does the german navy just have superior intelligence.
Press the N key while at the periscope or TBD to open the recog manual.:up:

[MudMarine]

I've read through dozens of threads concerning this topic in the forums, some of which were posted before 1.2 was released and some after, and haven't been able to come up with any definite or final answers -- thus the new thread. So here's what I'd like to establish with some kind of certainty, as of patch 1.2. Also note that while I'd love to discuss what was true in reality and historically, for the purposes of this thread I'm primarily concerned with what is currently true in-game and as of patch 1.2:


2. What measurement/unit is the torpedo depth dial displayed in (feet? meters?) and does the unit/measurement change when the game is set to Imperial or Metric or does it always use one or the other?



b. Where can I find accurate ship draft measurements for all ships that actually work in the game? I've noted that the measurements listed in the printed manual don't match the measurements presented in the in-game ship ID manual, and I have serious doubts about whether either of those accurately reflect what's actually modelled in the game, much less actual historical values. I'd be happy with any available method of solving this, such as a mod that corrects either (1) the ship models to make the drafts match the measurements in the in-game ID manual or (2) a mod that corrects the in-game ID manual to match the actual ship model drafts, or some combination thereof. I did find a mod that was supposed to correct the Jap ship model sizes, but it seemed to only related to the use of the stadimeter and not to draft lengths.

nomad_delta

delta and others,
I found a printable recognition manual for the simulation. suppose to be accurate.

SH4 Japan Recognition Manual v3.1 UPDATED RELEASE by yllekm
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111339

Good Hunting and Good luck with it. I will be using it. along with the in simulation one.

[popeye]

thanks!!

[7Enigma]

UnSalted,

Did you use magnetic or contact-only for your testing?

Thanks.

[UnSalted]

I used influence/contact. Never have used the Contact only. I never realized that some skippers preferred contact to keel shots until I came to this Board. :)

[orangenee]

In my experience I don't believe the switch is reversed although it does reset after a short while, I've snapped the sub school cruiser in half a few times with influence exploders, and I've had contact exploders go off early before as well in career mode with Mk 23 torps.

[UnSalted]

I've only used the Mk 14s so far. I've got a long list of things to try when I've finished my second campaign. Like mods, 100% realism etc.

[7Enigma]

I used influence/contact. Never have used the Contact only. I never realized that some skippers preferred contact to keel shots until I came to this Board. :)

The reason a lot of us used contact-only was due to the theory that in the GAME they were reversed (ie switching to contact only was in reality contact-influenced). Also in reality (historical not the game) the CI had some serious problems early in the war, and that along with the depth issues and possible weather conditions lend a higher probability of a successful hit to the contact-only. For me the analogy is similar to a large-bore rifle and a machine gun. The former is similar to a CI torp, if it works its going to do tremendous damage, but if it misses your SOL. With the contact-only your odds of a successful hit are higher (IMO), but the possible damage is also lowered. I'll take a limping merchant over the one that steams off.

OK so the analogy is not very good. Bleh.

[UnSalted]

Does anyone remember what the default setting was when the game was first loaded? I don't remember changing mine so I guess I should qualify my post with "And I'm lazy too". :)

[orangenee]

The default is contact-influence. I'm only basing that on 1.2 though.

[Powerthighs]

Yes, the default setting in the game has always been contact\influence.

[popeye]

i just attacked a convoy and used the manual for keel depth reference. i set the depth for 25, as the book said 24 feet. all passed harmlessly under their targets.

only when i raised it to 15, did the torp go off. killed in one shot.

so, something isnt right. the book, or the depth settings.

[UnSalted]

All were large freighters/tankers?

I played around with shooting a tanker last night. Reloaded the saved game several times and used the same stern shot depths on a large tanker in a flat calm sea and watched it hit with the camera.

At 15-20 feet set depth I was tearing the props up. At 24 feet I went under the props and blew up against the keel or just under it.

I'll try it again with some medium tankers/freighters the next time I find a good target/sea.

[SingeDebile]

I think that the primitive magnetic detonators are designed to detonate when they cross the invert threshold of a magnetic field, aka where N and S flip, thus telling it quite ovbiously that 'it's time to explode now'.



this sounds like the most logical way the system would work.. good thinking!

[akdavis]

mine had no such thing. i got the chinese version.

Chinese version, hey? What else was it missing?

[UnSalted]

OK.....thanks to the skipper of a Modern Medium Compoite Freighter who foolishly cruised past my bow, I have some data on medium freighters of that particular type.

Test at 3:35 AM local time,speed 5 knots, dead calm (and I mean hardly a ripple), ship riding "normal" meaning the edge of the painted red bottom of the ship was steady on the actual waterline. All shots from the side at 90% perpendicular to the target. All shots were fired seperately with the sub submerged dead in the water using the computer firing solution for consistency at a range of about 820 yards. The ship type shows a draft of 7 meters so I used a rough converson of that being 23 feet.

Torpedos: Mark 14, issued in early December 1943.
Settings: Speed - High Exploder: Contact/Influence

Depth: 21 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three went directly under the hull under the funnel and all three looked exactly the same in that they were almost scraping the keel paint. Not a single torpedo exploded, all passed under.

Depth: 20 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three went directly under the funnel, all three exploded just under the keel...I think. The explosions appeared to be just under the keel and all three hull damage areas looked about the same looking up from below the ships. The hull damage was about even on both sides of the keel with the keel still showing as a slightly bolder narrow streak running down the center of the hull. None of the ships broke in half but all were slow sinkers....one took almost 40 minutes and the other two went down in about 5-10 minutes.

Depth: 19 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three hit right above the keel and the damage was confined to the keel and bottom of the ship on the torpedoed side only. No damage on the far side of the keel.

The thing I still don't have a clue as to is when and how much of a "random influence modifier" is applied to the program to affect the torpedo paths/depths/etc. I'm sure there is a random factor used since no torpedo shots should ever be exactly alike and all of these were cookie-cutter close. I'd expect a lot more variation than what I got in the hit locations for example, but I'm close to the end of this patrol and the crew ratings are very high so that has to be factored in as well I guess.

Having done this set of shots, I think the difference between "just under the keel" and hitting the very bottom of the ship is way too fine to use any set rules. And I sure don't think I can trust the depths in the manual/TDC because all three at 21 feet went under what should have been a 23' deep hull.

So...I think I'll use some guesstimates and set the torpedo depths depending on the what the manual says it "should be", how low the target appears to be riding in the water, and how rough the seas are.

Torpedo firings are like any other thing I guess....you can learn the theory but you have to refine the technique through losts of practice.

[popeye]

good post salty. i was very frustrated when all my fish ran under their targets. like i said before, i set the depth based on the book, but it was pretty rough seas.

still, 15 feet is pretty far off the 24 stated in the manual.

[nomad_delta]

Oy, my brain hurts. I've been (somewhat) systematically test firing torpedos to try to answer some of my own questions. I've answered most of my own questions with the data I've collected, but unfortunately most of the answers have been "the game is FUBAR".

Now I'm in the process of trying to figure out exactly how the data contained within each ship's .SIM file affects the ship draft/effective torpedo depth, and whether there's any conceivable way I could create a mod to fix all the massively incorrect ship draft values in the game.

So far it's not looking good, because as Krupp mentioned in his "JP Ship Dimension Fix" mod thread, the draft values in the SIM files make absolutely no sense at all. They're not entered in anything even resembling real-world or game values, and modifying them doesn't result in any any kind of predictable results.

Even if I managed to figure that out, though, I don't think it would matter because changing the SIM draft values in any meaningful way actually visibly moves the ships up & down in the game. Getting the ships anywhere near the draft values listed in the recog. manuals (which I've only been able to accomplish through massive trial & error since the values don't make any sensE) usually results in the ships appearing to 'float' above the water w/ props & rudder out in the air, or being submerged almost to 'decks awash'.

I think the most important thing I've discovered so far is this: applying IDENTICAL values to ALL settings in a ship's SIM and CFG files does not result in identical drafts or maximum torpedo depths. As best I can tell this means that the game uses the actual 3D model (or some other mystical data hidden elsewhere) to determine whether a torpedo hits or not, and the SIM file data simply modifying the placement of that model.

Some other conclusions I've come to so far:

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.

2. The torpedo depth setting dial DOES change from Feet to Meters depending on whether you have the game set to Imperial or Metric, respectively. So with the game set to metric, setting the torpedo depth to '10' results in 10 meters (32.8 feet), while the same dial value on Imperial would result in 10 feet (3 meters). The game does seem to perform the conversions properly and consistently, so at least something works!

Anyway, I haven't even really begun to process all of the information I've gathered so far, but I'm still working on it & I'll post more information as I find it. Here's the raw data for those of you who might be interested -- it's a little cluttered 'cause I haven't had time to format it to be easier to read:

TORPEDO FIRING TESTS
"Torpedo Attack" training mission against Mogami Heavy Cruiser
According to in-game recog. manual, Mogami Heavy Cruiser has a draft of 4.4 meters, which converts to 14.5 feet.
The NCA_Mogami.sim data file contains the following values:
mass=9500
gc_height=6
fr_ratio=0.5
put_on_water=1
displacementSurfaced=0
draightSurfaced=0
dragSurfaced=0.5
displacementSubmerged=0
draughtSubmerged=10.5
dragSubmerged=0.5
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 29, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (Destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 27, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 26, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 26, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT (destroyed, sank within approx 1 minute)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: METRIC
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS( under)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 10, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 10, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 9, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 8.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 4.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth: 4.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. DUD
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 4, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 6, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '5.25'.
NOTE: This VISIBLY moved the entire ship up vertically in the game so that the propellers and rudder were approx 1/3rd out of the water.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: METRIC
Torpedo Depth 8.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 4, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 4.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 13.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 14, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 2 minutes)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 14.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 14.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 3 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 15, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '5.25'.
NOTE: Ship appears to sit in the water 'normally' at this value; rudder & propellers are fully submerged to a reasonable level.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 14, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 15, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. HIT (destroyed, sank after approx 5 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 16, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. DUD
Torpedo Depth 18, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 18, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 20, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 22, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 23, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sank after approx 7 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 24, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 24, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)

Torpedo Depth 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '10.5'.
NOTE: Ship is visibly submerged much lower than normal, with decks appearing only a few feet above the water line.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT (destroyed instantly)
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 31, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 3 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 35, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 37, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 39, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 41, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 42, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 42, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 43, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (sank after approx 4 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed gc_height value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '12'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '7'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
"Torpedo Attack" training mission against Taiho Fleet Carrier (modified training mission in Mission Editor & replaced Mogami w/ Taiho)
According to in-game recog. manual, Taiho Fleet Carrier has a draft of 31.2 feet.
The NCV_Taiho.sim data file contains the following values:
mass=35000
gc_height=13
fr_ratio=0.5
put_on_water=1
displacementSurfaced=0
draughtSurfaced=0
dragSurfaced=0
displacementSubmerged=0
draughtSubmerged=25
dragSubmerged=0.5
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 35, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 36, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 40, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCV_Taiho.sim data file to '10.5'.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCV_Taiho.sim data file to '7.0'.
NOTE: This VISIBLY moved the entire ship up vertically in the game so that the propellers and rudder were almost entirely out of the water.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)

[Jungman]

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.


Yes, that is what I found out. I posted along time ago some data.

Contact/Influence does not explode just under the keel, as you stated. Same test procedure.

[SteamWake]

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.


Yes, that is what I found out. I posted along time ago some data.

Contact/Influence does not explode just under the keel, as you stated. Same test procedure.

Strange as I have successfully pulled off "under the keel" detonations. But in a similar manner to contact pistols the best results is at a 90 degree angle to the target and just barely beneath the boat seemed like inches.

Then again Ive had influence pistols run along the entire length of a ship stern to bow with no detonation.

[nomad_delta]

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.


Yes, that is what I found out. I posted along time ago some data.

Contact/Influence does not explode just under the keel, as you stated. Same test procedure.

Strange as I have successfully pulled off "under the keel" detonations. But in a similar manner to contact pistols the best results is at a 90 degree angle to the target and just barely beneath the boat seemed like inches.

Then again Ive had influence pistols run along the entire length of a ship stern to bow with no detonation.

Note that I didn't include in my testing any 'visual' check of where the torpedos looked like they were going. I haven't completely verified this, but I'm thinking the game doesn't quite render the torpedos and ships visually consistent with the "hit boxes" it uses to determine whether it impacts or not. I say this because I've definitely seen what visually appeared to be "under the keel" detonations when my torpedos were set to 'contact only'.

It's all so confusing. I'm planning on doing some more extensive and more thorough testing after 1.3 is released so we can get some definitive answers, and see whether any of this mess is changed/improved by the patch. Here's hoping. :)

nomad_delta

[vindex]

Wow, a lot of serious effort going into something that is going to change completely anyway when we get 1.3 in "weeks not months".

I'm not playing these days, I'm waiting for the patch. I notice there isn't a whole lot of new modding going on either, probably for the same reason.

[GOZO]

Nomad Delta;

What status did you have on the SHIV installation? I mean patch 1.2 or just "vanilla"?

I am experimenting with SHIV, 1.2 + "Real fleetboat 1.28"-mod

Cheers

/Per

[gg5056]

I cannot find sim.data in cfg. or in-game recog.manual.

would you please help me fine it.

[gg5056]

I cannot find sim.data in cfg. or in-game recog.manual.

would you please help me fine it.

[nomad_delta]

@vindex: yeah, that's why I'm holding off on any further effort towards this for now. I'm kinda hoping that it will all become irrelevant once 1.3 is released and they'll fix all the problems, but I'm not holding my breath. ;)

@GOZO: All tests were performed with patch 1.2 applied and nothing else. I had been playing with Trigger Maru 1.2 at the time but I did a clean install prior to running the tests just to make sure nothing was modifying my results. I also tried some of the tests again after re-installing all of my mods (TM 1.2 plus a bunch of other stuff) and got the same results. These days I'm playing with RFB 1.28.

@gg5056: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're asking... can you rephrase your question maybe?

Cheers,

nomad_delta

[tycho102]

1. Does changing the exploder setting to Contact or Contact/Influence do anything at all?
a. If it does make a difference, does it work correctly?
b. If the Contact/Influence setting does anything at all, does it ever work properly in game, and is it ever beneficial to actually use it?

3. Is a ship's "draft" the distance that it extends below the waterline, and is that (in theory) what I should be using to determine my torpedo's depth settings?

a. Is there a consistent part of all ships draft that is best to hit?, such as: "as low as possible without going under" or "dead center of the ship's draft" or does it vary with each ship? If it varies, where can I find this information for each ship type?

Download my torpedo cheats, and load up the 200m magnetic detonator cheat. You'll see the torpedo detonate 200 meters away from the boat. Couple that with a 1km blast radius and you just fire a torpedo into the middle of a convoy to take half the thing out.

The mag-dets work. They are labeled correctly in version 1.2. They default with a 2m influence radius. You've got to get within 2m of the boat for it to go, and the normal explosion radius is variable -- from 3 meters to 7 meters. It sucks when you get a 3m detonation, 2 meters away from the ship's hull.

3. Draft is from the waterline to the keel. If a boat is fully laden, it might be 10 meters. If it's nearly empty, it might only be 6 meters.

3a. Hit tankers at the waterline, right in their fuel tank. All other boats, you want to put a torp under their keel under some kind of "critical" compartment. Fuel tanks, ammo storage, engine room.