View Full Version : Kuwait drops dollar
By Ulf Laessing
KUWAIT, May 20 (Reuters) - Kuwait unshackled its dinar from the tumbling U.S. dollar on Sunday and switched the exchange rate mechanism to a basket of currencies, throwing plans for currency union with other Gulf Arab oil producers into disarray. Kuwait's central bank, which battled speculators for weeks to defend the peg, said the dollar's slide against other currencies had forced it to break ranks with fellow Gulf states to contain inflation from the rising cost of some imports.
The move stunned Gulf currency markets and volumes dried up. The impact would be clearer on Monday when international markets open, said Steve Brice, chief middle east economist at Standard Chartered Bank in Dubai.
Oman and Bahrain, the two smallest Gulf economies, and Saudi Arabia, the largest Arab economy, said they planned to stand by their pegs. There was no comment from the central bank of the United Arab Emirates, whose currency could take centre stage on Monday as prospects for a single currency evaporate.
Kuwait was still committed to monetary union, the central bank governor said in a statement, after changing the dinar's rate to $0.228806, an appreciation of about 0.37 percent. "The massive decline in the dollar's exchange rate against main currencies ... has contributed to the increase in local inflation rates and this step is part of the central bank's efforts to curb inflationary pressure," Sheikh Salem Abdul-Aziz al-Sabah said in a statement carried by state news agency KUNA.
More here:
http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com: 20070520:MTFH81805_2007-05-20_16-41-21_L20367180&type=comktNews&rpc=44[/url
Skybird
05-27-07, 05:25 PM
Just wait for when China decides to convert it's Dollar reserves into Euros. Wallstreet's "Black Friday" will appear to be a harmless joke, compared to that.
Ishmael
05-27-07, 08:11 PM
Just wait for when China decides to convert it's Dollar reserves into Euros. Wallstreet's "Black Friday" will appear to be a harmless joke, compared to that.
They won't do that until they're ready to take Taiwan. That way the US won't be able to afford the fuel to get over there to stop them.
Sea Demon
05-27-07, 08:32 PM
If China maliciously dumps the dollar in this type of economic warfare, we may have to be ready to destroy China using any means possible (nuclear if necessary). It's a crappy option, but one we may have to exercise under this type of dire, chaotic, life threatening, and dangerous circumstance. I would expect my government (USA) to exact a painful retaliation 10 fold.
Skybird
05-28-07, 04:13 AM
Spoken by testicles, not by brains.
Spoken by testicles, not by brains.
I thought he was joking.:oops:
NefariousKoel
05-28-07, 04:22 AM
Just wait for when China decides to convert it's Dollar reserves into Euros. Wallstreet's "Black Friday" will appear to be a harmless joke, compared to that.
They won't do that until they're ready to take Taiwan. That way the US won't be able to afford the fuel to get over there to stop them.
Hell, I can barely afford to drive to work these days as it is.:shifty:
Skybird
05-28-07, 04:30 AM
Spoken by testicles, not by brains.
I thought he was joking.:oops:
I thought not.
Godalmighty83
05-28-07, 05:52 AM
[hugs pound coin]
mhh.
elite_hunter_sh3
05-28-07, 05:56 AM
If america does bomb china.... with nukes...as long as the radiation and all doesnt reach Canada im down for it.:hmm:..China is #1 polluter... biggest population... and biggest threat ... as they literrally have the man power to conquer asia and europe with ease...and probably the world.... heres a scenario where nukes are a good thing!:up::arrgh!:
If america does bomb china.... with nukes...as long as the radiation and all doesnt reach Canada im down for it.:hmm:..China is #1 polluter... biggest population... and biggest threat ... as they literrally have the man power to conquer asia and europe with ease...and probably the world.... heres a scenario where nukes are a good thing!:up::arrgh!:
Are you serious?!
Do you know what your saying?
Thats a bloody big heap of bad karma.
elite_hunter_sh3
05-28-07, 06:43 AM
think about it.... population of 1.3billion and rising... dont forget about the chinese population in other countries..... and with a base army of 100 million troops and a rapidly growing economy... = bad outcome.. with their reserves they can go up to 400 MILLION + troops... while USA's entire population is 300 million :o:huh:....once china feels like they want to flex their fists and go fight someone... they will.. they are just waiting till their economy is the highest it can be... they got new tanks, airplanes, helicopters, nukes, nuclear submarines rivalling the american subs.., massive amount of troops..... all i see is a grime future for the world... unless china is stopped... here and now... diplomatic means wont do anything because they now still have a strong army.. :shifty::shifty:
elite_hunter_sh3
05-28-07, 06:44 AM
courtesy of fish
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115530
If China maliciously dumps the dollar in this type of economic warfare, we may have to be ready to destroy China using any means possible (nuclear if necessary). It's a crappy option, but one we may have to exercise under this type of dire, chaotic, life threatening, and dangerous circumstance. I would expect my government (USA) to exact a painful retaliation 10 fold.
Sounds like a rude way of not paying your debts :lol:
BTW maliciously? Why should China want to keep so much bons of a currency that might suffer heavy loses once the US economy can no longer stand its huge deficit?
The US economy is doomed, it's only a matter of when will the deficit exceed the credit capacity. If I had dollars I would get rid of them ASAP:huh:
What China is doing is an enormous favor to have taken so many until now....:hmm:
Happy Times
05-28-07, 07:47 AM
If China maliciously dumps the dollar in this type of economic warfare, we may have to be ready to destroy China using any means possible (nuclear if necessary). It's a crappy option, but one we may have to exercise under this type of dire, chaotic, life threatening, and dangerous circumstance. I would expect my government (USA) to exact a painful retaliation 10 fold.
Sounds like a rude way of not paying your debts :lol:
BTW maliciously? Why should China want to keep so much bons of a currency that might suffer heavy loses once the US economy can no longer stand its huge deficit?
The US economy is doomed, it's only a matter of when will the deficit exceed the credit capacity. If I had dollars I would get rid of them ASAP:huh:
What China is doing is an enormous favor to have taken so many until now....:hmm:
I agree, im wondering where all that money has gone.:hmm: If i would be living in the US id put my savings in Europe as Euros.
Jimbuna
05-28-07, 08:22 AM
If China maliciously dumps the dollar in this type of economic warfare, we may have to be ready to destroy China using any means possible (nuclear if necessary). It's a crappy option, but one we may have to exercise under this type of dire, chaotic, life threatening, and dangerous circumstance. I would expect my government (USA) to exact a painful retaliation 10 fold.
Sounds like a rude way of not paying your debts :lol:
BTW maliciously? Why should China want to keep so much bons of a currency that might suffer heavy loses once the US economy can no longer stand its huge deficit?
The US economy is doomed, it's only a matter of when will the deficit exceed the credit capacity. If I had dollars I would get rid of them ASAP:huh:
What China is doing is an enormous favor to have taken so many until now....:hmm:
I agree...we Brits are hanging on to the pound for grim death. it's only a matter of time before the inevitable change over to Euros will happen :yep:
courtesy of fish
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115530
Ok tell them your ok with some nukes on there head.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~peschiwj/chinese-children.jpg
Sea Demon
05-28-07, 09:37 AM
Spoken by testicles, not by brains.
No. Spoken by a sense of survival. Doesn't have anything to do with parts of the body at all. If China is building large foreign exchange reserves in dollars simply so they can drop an economic bomb, such as dumping them quickly and completely so as to prevent US military action, or stop oil deliveries to America.....that's just like dropping a bomb of destruction. That means simple deliveries of food within America may be disrupted to the point of non-delivery. I don't know about you, but not being able to eat is hazardous to your health where I come from. With that said, the nuclear option is only the most extreme. And it is the least desirable. But indeed, I would expect the US government to retaliate in a way that would make them pay an ultimate price. China needs to know that economic warfare is not in their interests, and will be painful to them if they partake in it.
If they want to exchange their foreign reserves nominally, then they should do so. But nevertheless, I'm willing to bet that they will not do so at all. The Euro as a long term option ain't that good as is. With a large, yet rapidly shrinking, and aging population sucking on government pensions, and a burgeoning low skilled/hostile Muslim infusion in Europe.....I wouldn't bet on it.
Skybird
05-28-07, 11:00 AM
Nobody forced you to sell your dollars offworld. Nobody forced you to waste oil like crazy, and still refuse until today to tackle that problem of excessive wasting ressources, and not to adapt your economy. Nobody forced you to ignore the economical developement in Asia for decades. Nobody forced you to raise a state deficit that high that only astronomers have an image of what the numbers mean. Nobody forced you to run your economy in a way that today the inherent weaknesses and vulnerabilities not only become more and more appearant, but also more and more threatening. Nobody forced you to trust stock markets, and to launch this madness called "globalization" (about which your own pliticians for the most have become remarkably silent since two years or so). Nobody forced you to let major parts of your heavy industry rot, and not modernize your steelworks since decades. Nobody forced you to follow an economic course where you depend more and more on market protection and subsidies to keep your home factories alive. Nobody forced you to sell out parts of your country to Asian investors. Nobody forced you to accept a trade deficit that in the short run funded your luxury (past), in the long run only cripples your economical backbone (present and future).
You did all that voluntarily. Nobody forced you, no one else told you you should do it, nobody else is responsible for your situation than you yourself. You sold yourself, by your own decision. Nobody forced you.
You may take some comfort from the historical fact that most empires, including the Romans, weakened themselves from within when eroding their inner economy by becoming more and more dependent on a constant input of economic goods to consume, that was maintained from the outside. Rome, like America, saw itself as the navel of the world, and considered it to be quite naturally for that reason to become a great consumer, but not as great a producer. Many empires literally consumed themselves to death, mislearned how to support themselves anymore by their own economical effort, and were bancrupted by exessive military spending that their own internal economy could not afford -it was heavily depending on constant financial inputs from foreign powers. exactly the same is true of the Us today - if investors would stop to think in dollars and turn to Euros, if investors would rlaize that they are only helping to increase bubbles that sooner or later mist burst - America would face a very brutal landing on the surface of hard reality. European nations in the past 500 years repeatedly reached that point - namely Spain, France and Portugal. The British only were able to sustain the fight against Napoleon by adressing these issues just in time, by reforming their fiscal and tax system.
I once have said two or three years ago that american economy is far weaker and vulnerable than americans are able to admit. Back then I was laughed at only, and saw waving hands. At least some have stopped laughing now. The rest of it will be learned sooner or later, too.
Else it is "Game Over, player US looses".
P.S. Some "experts" fear that Chinese economy is heading for a bubble-bursting soon. If that happens and it is the main bubble bursting, internal investement markets in the US as well as the already troubled property market will have a chance to get a first taste of spicey things to come. I don't know why America seem to have assumed that it would be spared from it's creature called globalization. and compared to several european countries with partially far more modern industry branches (especially steel and machinery), America is not really as well prepared for that. If other nations will suffer econo0mically, the military spendings and investements into computer equipement are the first to be cut. And what Western economy depends on selling of arms and computers more than anyone else?
Sky-wizard again to the rescue....I'm so glad you are here Skybird to point out all the things people should be doing or should have done because you told us so a few yrs ago....do you get your prophecy from a crystal ball or do you consult the stars?..or is it simply your superior athesist intellect farther evolved than the rest of us?
The things you think are knowledge are not....it is as easy at looking at clouds and know rain is coming....but thank you again for the weather report.....hows the weather in your neighborhood Skybird?
Sea Demon
05-28-07, 12:23 PM
The funny thing is that I've been hearing about "impending US economic collapse" since I've been alive. Recessions, depressions, dollar fluctuations, inflation, currency crises, bubbles, etc. are terms I've seen since the 1970's. This isn't new...well, maybe to the prophet Skybird it is. This to me is like impending doomsday from global warming. Or is "global cooling" the new fad? :hmm:
bradclark1
05-28-07, 01:15 PM
The way I see it China's future is tied to ours, like it or not. A kind of simplistic statement but hey!
Sky-wizard again to the rescue....I'm so glad you are here Skybird to point out all the things people should be doing or should have done because you told us so a few yrs ago....do you get your prophecy from a crystal ball or do you consult the stars?..or is it simply your superior athesist intellect farther evolved than the rest of us?
The things you think are knowledge are not....it is as easy at looking at clouds and know rain is coming....but thank you again for the weather report.....hows the weather in your neighborhood Skybird?
Iceman, perhaps you could enlighten us where exactly Skybird is wrong in his post? :hmm:
Sea Demon
05-28-07, 02:24 PM
Iceman, perhaps you could enlighten us where exactly Skybird is wrong in his post? :hmm:
:lol: :lol:Where the hell has the gloom and doom predictions proven correct?? Other than Internet BS hype that is.
Skybird
05-28-07, 02:41 PM
Why just sticking your head into the sand?
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3123/417533je5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Full throttle, and with loads of optimism and horsepower towards the future!
Sea Demon
05-28-07, 02:57 PM
Why just sticking your head into the sand?
Why is it that you can't prove your gloom and doom scenarios? We're still here and doing fine, despite your "prophecies" of doom of past years. :lol: Arrogant posturing does not substitute for accuracy. ;)
The Avon Lady
05-28-07, 03:13 PM
Hey! It says "made in Guangzhou" on that motorcycle! :p
Iceman, perhaps you could enlighten us where exactly Skybird is wrong in his post? :hmm:
:lol: :lol:Where the hell has the gloom and doom predictions proven correct?? Other than Internet BS hype that is.
The game is not over yet. :cool:
PeriscopeDepth
05-28-07, 04:23 PM
Don't get too giddy waiting for the United States' downfall now. I know it's all the rage to be anti-American now, but some Euros seem to have a very short memory when it comes to the United States. I wouldn't be so pumped about China taking down the US if I were you guys.
PD
SUBMAN1
05-28-07, 04:37 PM
Funny thread. Hmm. Lets see... China goes after Taiwan and decides its going o bankrupt the US to stop them from helping.
Hmm. US being not as stupid as some people in this thread make them out to be, freezes China's assets, bankrupting their country overnight instead of China bankrupting the US.
People who suggest that China can bankrupt the US, don't seem to get the big picture, and clearly show that they do not understand the complex US China relations. To put it simple - China and the US are joined at the hip. One cannot do to the other without effecting themselves to a similar degree in the process. The US has as much capability to effect China as China has capability in effecting the US.
I have some great articles on the subject if anyone is interested.
-S
Skybird
05-28-07, 05:08 PM
Why just sticking your head into the sand?
Why is it that you can't prove your gloom and doom scenarios? We're still here and doing fine, despite your "prophecies" of doom of past years. :lol: Arrogant posturing does not substitute for accuracy. ;)
Why are you practicing it , then?
My "prophecy" of past years concenring Iraq became true to the smallest detail. My "prophecy" concerning Afghanistan for the most has come true, or is on the way to become so. I "predicted" massive abuse of prisoners, and it became true. I "predicted that the psychologically traumatized soldiers returning will be left alone in many cases, and that such cases must be measured in the range of high thousands and tens of thousands. If you check your own nation's veteran oprganization'S websites, you will see that their counts are what I said. Zwo years ago or so I tld you that your property markets will start to shift for the worse, due to certain changes in chinese financial policies that have to do with their monnumental reserves - your newsppaer are reproting about exactly this happening since some months now. The US is isolated with it's views on climate, and will try it's best at Heilgendamm to isolate itself even more. We others just are too dumb to understand America's superior knowledge of climate change. Even the most minimal mentioning of climate change, and even the most minimal considerations of reducing pollutions have been compelte rejected by the american negotiators before Heiligendamm.
It'S just that you call everything a "prohecy" that you do not like, in an attempt to make it look ridiculous so that people must not take note of it. You can't bear the message, so you try to blame the messanger. That is the substance of your superior knowledge - ignorrance. If only you would look a bit beyond your American scope, you would realize that time and again economical analysts - often Americans - are describing some economical facts and necessary conclusions from that that are not different to what I say. Read one or two history books on Rome, or Europe of the last past centuries, and you will see that what America is heading for has happened so very often before with other empires. The way you mishandle your economy has been done in exactly this way several times before your age. but do you learn a lesson from our ancestor's examples? Do you give it any thinking? No! Why should you - you are Americans, right? Americans must not listen, they always know it better, right?
Boy, you are sticking with your head so deep in the sand that even your boots are not visible anymore.
Don't get too giddy waiting for the United States' downfall now. I know it's all the rage to be anti-American now, but some Euros seem to have a very short memory when it comes to the United States. I wouldn't be so pumped about China taking down the US if I were you guys.
I "predicted" failure in Iraq, so I was accused of "wishing for American failure". I talked about the exessive consumation of ressources and goods and the enormous probolems coming from that, so I was accused of just being envious. I just hinted at the economical collapse of major european powers of the past 500 years, and now you accuse me of short memory. I warned you that your nation is living on credit, and that this necessarily is weakening your economy from within, and you say I am giddy to see America fall. I see a pattern in this kind of behavior.
If somebody sees a red flashing warning light on the panel and as a reaction smashes it with a hammer so that the alarm blinking is no more irritating him, I can't help it.
And now get a shovel and dig harder, I still can see your boots.
PeriscopeDepth
05-28-07, 05:40 PM
Actually, I wasn't talking about you Skybird.
PD
Sea Demon
05-28-07, 06:03 PM
My "prophecy" of past years .......
LOL. :lol: You are too full of yourself Skybird. You crack me up. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Skybird
05-28-07, 06:27 PM
My "prophecy" of past years .......
LOL. :lol: You are too full of yourself Skybird. You crack me up. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I did yourself a favour and accepted your own initial word selection. Restore your short time memory, maybe.
Skybird
05-28-07, 06:29 PM
Actually, I wasn't talking about you Skybird.
PD
Is that so? The bullet fell down near my position. But okay - in the heat of battle...
SUBMAN1
05-28-07, 06:36 PM
I prophecize the sun will come up tomorrow. Beat that Skybird.
Nothing you have said has come true to the smallest detail. I read everything you wrote. All you wrote was that the Iraq war would be a failure and failed to say how so - gee - that is about as broad as my sun statement above! The point being - nothing you have said to the smallest detail has come true. In 20 years, then you will be able to say one way or the other - but today, you say nothing since all you have said has not come to pass yet.
-S
Tchocky
05-28-07, 06:41 PM
The point being - nothing you have said to the smallest detail has come true. In 20 years, then you will be able to say one way or the other - but today, you say nothing since all you have said has not come to pass yet.
-S
Examples?
this kind of black-is-white argument needs it....on both sides
SUBMAN1
05-28-07, 06:45 PM
The point being - nothing you have said to the smallest detail has come true. In 20 years, then you will be able to say one way or the other - but today, you say nothing since all you have said has not come to pass yet.
-S
Examples?
this kind of black-is-white argument needs it....on both sides
Give me some examples to compare and then I will give you what you want. The point I made is there has been nothing said by Skybird that says exactly this will happen. And to say you lost or failed before a war is over is complete BS. That is the point.
-S
Sky-wizard again to the rescue....I'm so glad you are here Skybird to point out all the things people should be doing or should have done because you told us so a few yrs ago....do you get your prophecy from a crystal ball or do you consult the stars?..or is it simply your superior athesist intellect farther evolved than the rest of us?
The things you think are knowledge are not....it is as easy at looking at clouds and know rain is coming....but thank you again for the weather report.....hows the weather in your neighborhood Skybird?
Iceman, perhaps you could enlighten us where exactly Skybird is wrong in his post? :hmm:
Never said he was wrong Fishy it will get worse than that I'm sure...just the doom and gloom sermon gets old....with the fortunes Skybirds predicts I don't know why anyone would want to continue with life at all.
Where is your hope?
Where is your faith?
What is your reason for living?
Skybird just comes off as a severely depressed and lonely individual in his posts.
Tchocky
05-28-07, 07:22 PM
SUBMAN, just back this one up and I'll stop
The point being - nothing you have said to the smallest detail has come true.
Frau_Phillips
05-28-07, 08:43 PM
All I can say is, I'm high-tailing it to England when I'm ready to start my family.
For more than one reason, the major one, however, being the increasing likelihood of economic collapse.
It sucks, but I'll still visit! :lol:
bradclark1
05-28-07, 10:03 PM
All I can say is, I'm high-tailing it to England when I'm ready to start my family.
For more than one reason, the major one, however, being the increasing likelihood of economic collapse.
It sucks, but I'll still visit! :lol:
Thats funny. I love visiting England but I wouldn't choose it as a place to live.
If you worry about Armageddon/Economic Collapse/Barney Living Forever, all the time you will be too scared to make a move and die of a heart-attack by twenty five.
Frau_Phillips
05-28-07, 10:15 PM
All I can say is, I'm high-tailing it to England when I'm ready to start my family.
For more than one reason, the major one, however, being the increasing likelihood of economic collapse.
It sucks, but I'll still visit! :lol:
Thats funny. I love visiting England but I wouldn't choose it as a place to live.
If you worry about Armageddon/Economic Collapse/Barney Living Forever, all the time you will be too scared to make a move and die of a heart-attack by twenty five.
I'm not worrying about it, because I won't be here.
File it under "Not my problem."
PeriscopeDepth
05-28-07, 10:21 PM
Actually, I wasn't talking about you Skybird.
PD Is that so? The bullet fell down near my position. But okay - in the heat of battle...
Its alright. Such things happen on the Internet, especially when one makes broad sweeping statements such as I did. To clarify, my remark was aimed at Fish because of his smug "The game is not over yet" remark. He seems pretty happy with the prophecized impending downfall of the United States. But of course, as I said before, it's the Internet and I may have misinterpreted things.
I really must leave a post it note on my monitor to stop visiting the general topics forum...
PD
TteFAboB
05-28-07, 10:30 PM
I'll be walking around with a suitcase full of gold ready to start raising stuff off the ground. That is, if there's any prospective of recovery, of course. It wouldn't only be an opportunity to shuffle things around but also to create the North American Union or otherwise start playing soft dictatorship.
SUBMAN1
05-28-07, 11:22 PM
SUBMAN, just back this one up and I'll stop
The point being - nothing you have said to the smallest detail has come true.
Go read his old posts - He used generic terms and never really said much about this or that will happen. Use the search tool because I am not going to go find it for you.
-S
Skybird
05-29-07, 03:52 AM
Actually, I wasn't talking about you Skybird.
PD Is that so? The bullet fell down near my position. But okay - in the heat of battle...
Its alright. Such things happen on the Internet, especially when one makes broad sweeping statements such as I did. To clarify, my remark was aimed at Fish because of his smug "The game is not over yet" remark. He seems pretty happy with the prophecized impending downfall of the United States.
I really do not have such an impression of Fish. As you said, it is the internet. He wanted to point out a longtime perspective of things developing, answering to someone who cut it too short, so to speak.
Where is your hope?
Where is your faith?
What is your reason for living?
Skybird just comes off as a severely depressed and lonely individual in his posts. What does hope have to do with anything? Hope is an emotion. And faith, well faith is for people that don't want the responsibility of facing reality with fact and critical thought.
You can't attack a man just on the basis that he's critical. Optimism isn't a panacea for grim situations. And I don't believe that Skybird is being negative for his own depressive satisfaction. He made specific reference to a number of economic and social trends in the American economy which cannot be characterized as being good things for anyone that likes the Red White and Blue and you attack him because he doesn't buy into Manifest Destiny.
You are committing one of the oldest and most pathetic argumentative sins. You are attacking the man and not his opinions and words. I see no googled links, no "well I read this in a book that says different...". I see no personal experience with economics or business to counter his remarks about the American Economy. And you accuse him of making baseless prophecies.
You aren't arguing, you're decrying. But I suspect that you don't argue because you either have no respect for the conventions of argument or that you have no means to tell him he's wrong because you can't fathom any other concept than your own rah rah patriotism.
Being critical is not wishing the worst, its fearing it. Its what politicians are elected to do, and what economists are paid to do. So please at the very least enough of this Oprah BS where you want everyone to put out positive energy to the universe about the US. Be an intellectual.
Sea Demon
05-29-07, 10:18 AM
You are committing one of the oldest and most pathetic argumentative sins. You are attacking the man and not his opinions and words. I see no googled links, no "well I read this in a book that says different...". I see no personal experience with economics or business to counter his remarks about the American Economy. And you accuse him of making baseless prophecies.
Being critical is not wishing the worst, its fearing it. Its what politicians are elected to do, and what economists are paid to do. So please at the very least enough of this Oprah BS where you want everyone to put out positive energy to the universe about the US. Be an intellectual.
The links, magazine articles, and such have been painting disaster as long as I've been alive. How about actually living the experience? Where there are downturns, there are upswings on the flip side. Some people read Chalmers Johnson, and buy it hook, line, and sinker. And the "prophecies" of doom never come true. The only doom that seems to come is the trash these so-called intellectuals produce. I'm not saying there are no troubles and everything's fine and dandy. I'm not saying that things don't need improvement. But I assure you, the USA is not in imminent danger of economic collapse. :rotfl: There is more economic output from the single state of California than most nations in the world.
Sky-wizard again to the rescue....I'm so glad you are here Skybird to point out all the things people should be doing or should have done because you told us so a few yrs ago....do you get your prophecy from a crystal ball or do you consult the stars?..or is it simply your superior athesist intellect farther evolved than the rest of us?
The things you think are knowledge are not....it is as easy at looking at clouds and know rain is coming....but thank you again for the weather report.....hows the weather in your neighborhood Skybird?
Iceman, perhaps you could enlighten us where exactly Skybird is wrong in his post? :hmm:
Never said he was wrong Fishy it will get worse than that I'm sure...just the doom and gloom sermon gets old....with the fortunes Skybirds predicts I don't know why anyone would want to continue with life at all.
Where is your hope?
Where is your faith?
What is your reason for living?
Skybird just comes off as a severely depressed and lonely individual in his posts.
Ahh yes. Sorry for misreading. ;)
He seems pretty happy with the prophecized impending downfall of the United States.
No, I am not, it's just some people are so selfsatisfied (what a word).
It's more out of anxiety.
The US is a great country, it's only the people. :shifty:
He he, joking. :yep:
Hmm. US being not as stupid as some people in this thread make them out to be, freezes China's assets, bankrupting their country overnight instead of China bankrupting the US.
People who suggest that China can bankrupt the US, don't seem to get the big picture, and clearly show that they do not understand the complex US China relations. To put it simple - China and the US are joined at the hip. One cannot do to the other without effecting themselves to a similar degree in the process. The US has as much capability to effect China as China has capability in effecting the US.
That is right to a big extent, yet it can't probably avoid that the US economy will somewhen collapse from the huge deficit. Be it forced by a Chinese economic attack (Very unlikely) or by the pure economics (Very likely), that doesn't matter much. If the US economy goes down, 90% of the planet will go down with it, that's for sure a good reason why everybody is doing their best to keep it alive.
You are committing one of the oldest and most pathetic argumentative sins. You are attacking the man and not his opinions and words. I see no googled links, no "well I read this in a book that says different...". I see no personal experience with economics or business to counter his remarks about the American Economy. And you accuse him of making baseless prophecies.
Being critical is not wishing the worst, its fearing it. Its what politicians are elected to do, and what economists are paid to do. So please at the very least enough of this Oprah BS where you want everyone to put out positive energy to the universe about the US. Be an intellectual.
The links, magazine articles, and such have been painting disaster as long as I've been alive. How about actually living the experience? Where there are downturns, there are upswings on the flip side. Some people read Chalmers Johnson, and buy it hook, line, and sinker. And the "prophecies" of doom never come true. The only doom that seems to come is the trash these so-called intellectuals produce. I'm not saying there are no troubles and everything's fine and dandy. I'm not saying that things don't need improvement. But I assure you, the USA is not in imminent danger of economic collapse. :rotfl: There is more economic output from the single state of California than most nations in the world.
So what then? The US will forever have a strong economy, will forever be the dominant super power? Will forever have a greater GDP than most of the third world combined? If one thing about economics is a universal its that no economy will ever last forever. There is always a shift. Every empire has expired and a new one has come along. I don't see anything different about the US in this sense.
So then is it your position that anyone that says the US is going to fail economically is automatically wrong, and that "intellectual" appraisals of economic policy are just trash?
It is completely naiive that you believe that nothing the US is doing is dangerous for its long term survival. I don't see how you can't see this kind of massive debt to China as being dangerous. America became the greatest superpower after WW2 because of the very same thing: war debts owed by most of Europe and largely Britain. When those debts were called in the finacial capital of the world shifted from London to New York almost overnight. And if this debt to China is in fact meaningless then I say it is still a risk because if the debt is meaningless then the entire foundation of the economic model of the world is flawed and will eventually implode. If nobody pays any debts then the whole system fails. Thats what happened in 29.
I don't want the world to collapse, but you can't sit back and assume that your dutiful leaders are only doing whats best for you. And thats what we're talking about. Its not a prophecy of doom, its a critical analysis of whats happening and a duscussion of why it might be bad, ie. what will happen if things don't change.
Sea Demon
05-30-07, 12:27 PM
I don't want the world to collapse, but you can't sit back and assume that your dutiful leaders are only doing whats best for you. And thats what we're talking about. Its not a prophecy of doom, its a critical analysis of whats happening and a duscussion of why it might be bad, ie. what will happen if things don't change.
Oh, no. I think our dutiful leaders are doing a bang up job screwing things up. If you reread what I actually said here, I don't think everythings hunky dory. We do have problems. But you're talking economic collapse that drags the entire world down some unrecoverable hell-hole. It's more likely we'll see a financial realignment of sorts. The world wasn't as financially linked decades ago as it is today. And right now, the economic output of individual US states exceeds most of the world including developed nations. California alone would be the 7th largest economy in the world if it was a nation unto itself. Texas is growing at a phenomenal rate of economic output as well. I see trouble in the currency. Their will be further erosions in the dollar as a reserve currency, and potential future recessions. But I don't see an impending doomsday scenario waiting to drag every nation into the dark ages. And no, I don't see China doing anything in the near or far term to destroy it's source of major growth. If they do, they go down the tubes as well. And I'm not sure they have the ability to realign as well as Western nations can at this point in time. If their economy dies, their whole system likely goes with it. The Chinese leadership fears this more than anything. They're screwed if their power evaporates. And they know it.
Oh, no. I think our dutiful leaders are doing a bang up job screwing things up. If you reread what I actually said here, I don't think everythings hunky dory. We do have problems. But you're talking economic collapse that drags the entire world down some unrecoverable hell-hole. It's more likely we'll see a financial realignment of sorts. The world wasn't as financially linked decades ago as it is today. And right now, the economic output of individual US states exceeds most of the world including developed nations. California alone would be the 7th largest economy in the world if it was a nation unto itself. Texas is growing at a phenomenal rate of economic output as well. I see trouble in the currency. Their will be further erosions in the dollar as a reserve currency, and potential future recessions. But I don't see an impending doomsday scenario waiting to drag every nation into the dark ages. And no, I don't see China doing anything in the near or far term to destroy it's source of major growth. If they do, they go down the tubes as well. And I'm not sure they have the ability to realign as well as Western nations can at this point in time. If their economy dies, their whole system likely goes with it. The Chinese leadership fears this more than anything. They're screwed if their power evaporates. And they know it.
Where did anyone say that the failure of the American economy would spell the end of civilization? Economies fall and new ones rise. It just wont be nice for anyone living on this particular rock. And nobody is predicting the collapse topmorrow. But in economics down the road what ahppens to day and continues to happen will have long term effects. Its like smoking. If you don't stop you'll have problems, even if you're 25 and can still run a mile a minute. Long term. Probably the end of my lifetime. Thats where economics leads. But the short term is imortant for long term outcomes. Thats the flaw in american economic policy.
Where is your hope?
Where is your faith?
What is your reason for living?
Skybird just comes off as a severely depressed and lonely individual in his posts. What does hope have to do with anything? Hope is an emotion. And faith, well faith is for people that don't want the responsibility of facing reality with fact and critical thought.
You can't attack a man just on the basis that he's critical. Optimism isn't a panacea for grim situations. And I don't believe that Skybird is being negative for his own depressive satisfaction. He made specific reference to a number of economic and social trends in the American economy which cannot be characterized as being good things for anyone that likes the Red White and Blue and you attack him because he doesn't buy into Manifest Destiny.
You are committing one of the oldest and most pathetic argumentative sins. You are attacking the man and not his opinions and words. I see no googled links, no "well I read this in a book that says different...". I see no personal experience with economics or business to counter his remarks about the American Economy. And you accuse him of making baseless prophecies.
You aren't arguing, you're decrying. But I suspect that you don't argue because you either have no respect for the conventions of argument or that you have no means to tell him he's wrong because you can't fathom any other concept than your own rah rah patriotism.
Being critical is not wishing the worst, its fearing it. Its what politicians are elected to do, and what economists are paid to do. So please at the very least enough of this Oprah BS where you want everyone to put out positive energy to the universe about the US. Be an intellectual.
Hope is a choice....
Faith is a choice....
Be Intellectual ???
I don't judge the man I judge the action...the deed.I choose ...I choose what is right and wrong....I decided.What some claim as knowledge is jibberish.
Nothing new under the sun all is vanity.Skybird to me is like the scribes and pharisees of old who love to been seen in the markets of men wearing scarlet....his words are hollow....to declare rain when the storm is overhead is not knowledge.I don't argue against that what he is saying will not come true....far worse grasshopper, is coming this way.
But you keep that intellectual perspective P Funk, I'm just some country bumpkin,hillbilly,bible belt,bible thumping nerd.:88)
I Love You Man
Sea Demon
05-31-07, 12:07 AM
Where did anyone say that the failure of the American economy would spell the end of civilization? Economies fall and new ones rise. It just wont be nice for anyone living on this particular rock. And nobody is predicting the collapse topmorrow. But in economics down the road what ahppens to day and continues to happen will have long term effects. Its like smoking. If you don't stop you'll have problems, even if you're 25 and can still run a mile a minute. Long term. Probably the end of my lifetime. Thats where economics leads. But the short term is imortant for long term outcomes. Thats the flaw in american economic policy.
Well, you certainly cover your bases, don't you. Even if America does not collapse in 100 years... it still might in 200. So you can't be wrong. I guess we're doomed folks. :D Like I've sadi, America's doom has been predicted my whole life. The dollar has been in jeapardy for as long as I could remember. And it was predicted long ago (in the early 80's)that Japan was going to own me, my house, and my first-born child.
Well, you certainly cover your bases, don't you. Even if America does not collapse in 100 years... it still might in 200. So you can't be wrong. I guess we're doomed folks. :D Like I've sadi, America's doom has been predicted my whole life. The dollar has been in jeapardy for as long as I could remember. And it was predicted long ago (in the early 80's)that Japan was going to own me, my house, and my first-born child. Well I'm sorry that creating a realistic informed view of the potential future of our civilization isn't a simplistic process that can be summed up in a basic subject-predicate clause.;)
Its true that our economic dominance of the world will end some day. However its like knowing that you're going to die: I can still control how I die for the most part. The kind of short term economic brilliance that the US is playing at is something that is beneficial over the short and detrimental over the long. Its like getting really high today, and finding out that I've destroyed my liver and I'm gonna die at 43. See this is where my excessive lazy and useless left wing politics come into play. Capitalism is a self defeating beast. Capitalism goes on these long weekend economic benders and like all of them they crash. I believe one popular expression is the boom-bust economy. And of course you have to take into account the people who are benefitting over the short and the long term with how things are going. And the truly wealthy don't really care about the USA. They'll just live in a penthouse in Beijing instead.
The point here is that every economy dies or at least every economy loses its dominance. But how all of that comes about is a matter of variables. How we comport ourselves today as an economic region tells us how we'll end up by the time our kids or our kid's kids are on subsim having this same unending discussion.
@ Iceman
I never said you were a hick with no brain. If you really were an idiot I wouldn't answer you because theres no point really in arguing with people that don't understand anything. So I don't feel superior to you. But I am confused by what you mean. You agree with most of what Skybird says but also decry him for saying it? Are you just slamming him for not being an optimist?
Well, you certainly cover your bases, don't you. Even if America does not collapse in 100 years... it still might in 200. So you can't be wrong. I guess we're doomed folks. :D Like I've sadi, America's doom has been predicted my whole life. The dollar has been in jeapardy for as long as I could remember. And it was predicted long ago (in the early 80's)that Japan was going to own me, my house, and my first-born child. Well I'm sorry that creating a realistic informed view of the potential future of our civilization isn't a simplistic process that can be summed up in a basic subject-predicate clause.;)
Its true that our economic dominance of the world will end some day. However its like knowing that you're going to die: I can still control how I die for the most part. The kind of short term economic brilliance that the US is playing at is something that is beneficial over the short and detrimental over the long. Its like getting really high today, and finding out that I've destroyed my liver and I'm gonna die at 43. See this is where my excessive lazy and useless left wing politics come into play. Capitalism is a self defeating beast. Capitalism goes on these long weekend economic benders and like all of them they crash. I believe one popular expression is the boom-bust economy. And of course you have to take into account the people who are benefitting over the short and the long term with how things are going. And the truly wealthy don't really care about the USA. They'll just live in a penthouse in Beijing instead.
The point here is that every economy dies or at least every economy loses its dominance. But how all of that comes about is a matter of variables. How we comport ourselves today as an economic region tells us how we'll end up by the time our kids or our kid's kids are on subsim having this same unending discussion.
@ Iceman
I never said you were a hick with no brain. If you really were an idiot I wouldn't answer you because theres no point really in arguing with people that don't understand anything. So I don't feel superior to you. But I am confused by what you mean. You agree with most of what Skybird says but also decry him for saying it? Are you just slamming him for not being an optimist?
I don't mean to slam him, I am just from the "There is always Hope" encampment and whether he realizes it or not he does not project alot of hopefullness. :)
There is no hope with man...none.
But all hope is not lost.There is more to this life than meets the eye....close your eyes and look,listen....hear the knocking?
Come on young jedi's...clear your minds.Do or no do there is no try.So when I read the gloomy posts from him ...yea I don't want people to be dragged down by that stuff because that is not all there is.
A friend of mine once put it..."Life's a bitch but it's worth living"...and if there was no good left in the world it would be all evil...it is not.
Smaragdadler
05-31-07, 02:41 AM
Halliburton's Dubai Move Sparks Outcry Members Of Congress Criticize Move As Insult To U.S. Soldiers And Taxpayers DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 12, 2007 (CBS/AP) U.S. oil services firm Halliburton Co. is shifting its corporate headquarters and chief executive from Houston to Dubai in a move that immediately sparked criticism from U.S. members of Congress. Halliburton Chief Executive Dave Lesar, speaking at an energy conference in nearby Bahrain, said he will relocate to Dubai from Texas to oversee Halliburton's intensified focus on business in the Mideast and energy-hungry Asia, home to some of the world's most important oil and gas markets. [...] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/12/business/main2558620.shtml What was it, that rats had do to with ships? :hmm:
The Avon Lady
05-31-07, 03:15 AM
Halliburton's Dubai Move Sparks Outcry Members Of Congress Criticize Move As Insult To U.S. Soldiers And Taxpayers DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 12, 2007 (CBS/AP) U.S. oil services firm Halliburton Co. is shifting its corporate headquarters and chief executive from Houston to Dubai in a move that immediately sparked criticism from U.S. members of Congress. Halliburton Chief Executive Dave Lesar, speaking at an energy conference in nearby Bahrain, said he will relocate to Dubai from Texas to oversee Halliburton's intensified focus on business in the Mideast and energy-hungry Asia, home to some of the world's most important oil and gas markets. [...] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/12/business/main2558620.shtml What was it, that rats had do to with ships? :hmm:
Yeh. Who ever would have thought that Halliburton is moving its HQ to where their main business profits and lower tax rates are?! Nah!
:roll:
Skybird
05-31-07, 06:16 AM
Are you just slamming him for not being an optimist?
Optimism or pessimism have nothing to do with it, at least for me. I only believe that if you do this or that, it will cause these or those consequences. I adress the world that I see, not the world as I want it to be. Realism is the magic word for me.
Concerning economies, they could last much longer if they would be managed with more reason, and not only with both eyes fixiated on the short term advantage. A light that shines twice as bright lasts only half as long. Capitalism in the end rejects all non-material values and thus, responsebilities, and only goes for what is best for it's profiteers. that is it's essence, and that is what makes it behaving like a virus. The sooner the complete organism has been infected and eaten up, the sooner the virus dies. This does not make the virus act any different of course, he is simply lacking the brain. Symbiosis would be the much more clever alternative. But that is an unknown word for most of today's companies.
Maybe it is genetic, from the times when our ancestors found something to eat only every couple of days, where hunted by wild animals themselves, and when they found water or food, they needed to gobble it as fast as they could so that it could not be taken away from them (like dogs do even when they eat alone). If it is like that, then we maybe are a failed design experiment of evolution: we prove to be unable to leave instincts behind that once helped to survive, and by that we prove to be unable to adapt to a changing living environment. For evolution, a design either is so close to perfect that it is able to deal with the changes of the world (sharks on my mind, for example, one of the most successfuol designs ever), or a design reaches a point at which it is unable to change it'S characteristics when being confronted with necessities for which it originally has not been formed. That could be chnaging living conditions, that could also be a dead end in the design self-dynamic developement: it may reach a point when itself is standing in it' way. Then further developement is stopped. such a dead end has been reached by many, many species on this planet over the past aeons. Our intellectualism so far has not shown to be a valuable tool to prevent us from doing our best to kill oursleves, bringing ourselves to the brink to extinction and killing the environmental basis for our suvival, at least he has not managed to make us achieve adaptation as fast as would be needed at this point of our specie's history. that we systemntically try to erode our life'S basis hardly is a sign for intelligence - more for genetic predetermination. That our hands, wonderful biologic tools, are capabale do built so many different tools and technical miracles, does in principle not change that. It does not prevent us from not realizing the sometimes enormous intelligence and self-awareness of other species - instead we look down on them, and in the predator'S way, we exploit them.
Maybe it is fair to say that we may be clever, but are not really intelligent. At least in German language, these two words express a certain qualitative difference (not sure if it is felt the same in English).
Optimism or pessimism have nothing to do with it, at least for me. I only believe that if you do this or that, it will cause these or those consequences. I adress the world that I see, not the world as I want it to be. Realism is the magic word for me. Thats how I figured you function. However others it seems would prefer to err on the side of optimism.:p
Concerning economies, they could last much longer if they would be managed with more reason, and not only with both eyes fixiated on the short term advantage. A light that shines twice as bright lasts only half as long. Capitalism in the end rejects all non-material values and thus, responsebilities, and only goes for what is best for it's profiteers. that is it's essence, and that is what makes it behaving like a virus. The sooner the complete organism has been infected and eaten up, the sooner the virus dies. This does not make the virus act any different of course, he is simply lacking the brain. Symbiosis would be the much more clever alternative. But that is an unknown word for most of today's companies. Thats exactly what I was trying to say in my silly verbose way, I just couldn't articulate it as effectively. It seems though that since Socialism in general (or Communism as the others seem to insist) is such a hurdle for men to achieve that it is somehow then to be seen as pointless or misguided. Since when has the goal of being better than one already is a terrible thing? Even if we can't get to the world that Marx would approve of then at least we can try and see it as far as it will go. To be a christian is to live to a standard higher than most any man can be judged fit yet it is one of the core elements of Western society. But a disdain for socialism is not a rational thing. I don't see many arguments that are fit to contradict how you or I characterize it, though I may often shoot myself in the foot by being so verbose and outspoken. I have however had a few people blatantly justify the unfair and often inhuman scheme of capitalism as some sort of natural order. Thats at least better than "Go back to Russia you commie". It would seem that I'm much too young to sound convincing in my beliefs without also sounding like a sheep of my own kind. Oh lament.:roll:
Maybe it is genetic, from the times when our ancestors found something to eat only every couple of days, where hunted by wild animals themselves, and when they found water or food, they needed to gobble it as fast as they could so that it could not be taken away from them (like dogs do even when they eat alone). If it is like that, then we maybe are a failed design experiment of evolution: we prove to be unable to leave instincts behind that once helped to survive, and by that we prove to be unable to adapt to a changing living environment. For evolution, a design either is so close to perfect that it is able to deal with the changes of the world (sharks on my mind, for example, one of the most successfuol designs ever), or a design reaches a point at which it is unable to change it'S characteristics when being confronted with necessities for which it originally has not been formed. That could be chnaging living conditions, that could also be a dead end in the design self-dynamic developement: it may reach a point when itself is standing in it' way. Then further developement is stopped. such a dead end has been reached by many, many species on this planet over the past aeons. Our intellectualism so far has not shown to be a valuable tool to prevent us from doing our best to kill oursleves, bringing ourselves to the brink to extinction and killing the environmental basis for our suvival, at least he has not managed to make us achieve adaptation as fast as would be needed at this point of our specie's history. that we systemntically try to erode our life'S basis hardly is a sign for intelligence - more for genetic predetermination. That our hands, wonderful biologic tools, are capabale do built so many different tools and technical miracles, does in principle not change that. It does not prevent us from not realizing the sometimes enormous intelligence and self-awareness of other species - instead we look down on them, and in the predator'S way, we exploit them. I've thought of something along those lines before. I often like to consider if maybe certain social dichotomies were the result of leftover insticts from the gender roles in the wild; that it isn't all the evil patriarchy that's to blame. I certainly see how our intellectualism hasn't aided us as much in civilizing our wild ways as it has allowed us to be the most efficient and effective predators on the planet. But at the same time there are many people who have at least in conception overcome the limitations of our primal selves, as it were, and at least laid some kind of groundwork for a more survivable future. Socialism is only my preferred thinking. But Bhuddism is certainly an excellent demonstration of the potential for people to be more than just glorified predators. But though there have always been those with more gentle souls it seems that no matter the economic or social circumstances, despite a few differing examples, people always seem to en masse surrender the good sense that they could possess and instead indulge in the kind of behavior that leads many to say that socialism is a pipe dream or that human nature will never change. Maybe the best way to put it is that a man can change drastically but people hardly change a bit. Something about that group dynamic robs us of all the good sense we have in private.
Maybe it is fair to say that we may be clever, but are not really intelligent. At least in German language, these two words express a certain qualitative difference (not sure if it is felt the same in English). The two are equally subtle in their meanings for sure in English. I believe they say that German is the most similar language to English.:cool:
Awesome post up there Skybird just awesome really you make your point very well...if we do all we can to make the world right and yet it never seems like it will fall into place don't you think it "possible" there are forces at work that you just don't see yet with they're own agendas?
Anyway good theory there with the symbosis or co-exsisting....awesome thought...reminds me of how the Navajo and I'm sure many tribes of indian believe...that we are but guests on this little planet "Mother" Earth, and should have much more respect for our host.
If you ever do see evil for what it really is fear not...God is there too....had to put God in there one more time. :)
Skybird
06-01-07, 06:55 AM
don't you think it "possible" there are forces at work that you just don't see yet with they're own agendas?
I see no reason in just believing something that I have not the smallest hint for - so, believing for no other reason than that I cannot proove in hard fact that it does not exist? It's a gamble only. As long as that lightning does not strikes down from heaven to kill the beast that just jumps to kill me, I prefer to take care of that beast myself, and don't care of the weather.
This does not mean that I consider nature/cosmos/creation to be a random event only. Their obviously is the ability of self-emergence in matter, of forming "holografic hierarchies", and there is meaningfulness, for if I look into a science book and become aware of the myriads of mutually dpeending variables, and then nlook up the stars in the nightly sky, I realize that this fragile balance we live by hardly can be the result of a big bang only. In fact I consider that theory to be a bit infantile.
But all that still does not make it appear a reasonable option to believe in another, separated, divine entity. In the end, all what we perceive is just thoughts in our minds, images endlessly passing, not more and not less real than shadows and winds. Take a Fata Morgana: the phenomenon itself is real, you can see the Fata Morgana, it is there. But what it shows you is not real. What we are and what the world is - we can ironically only realise to the ammount at which we oversee ourselves, forget ourselves. But we focus on ourselves instead, and by that separate us from what we are craving for. this distancing from our true source of existence, our origin, is what for me the real meaning of "sin" is meaning. It is illustrating lacking knowledge, and rejecting our origin.
Just believing in idols I can't see to be the clever choice here. Spirituality is not to be believed in, or talked about, or taught, or read. It is to be lived, not intentionally, but naturally, unintentionally, as the normal, natural state of mind that our life is meant to be since all times. It is nothing special, nothing to make a big deal of, nothing to wrap yourself in, nothing to make you go into a temple or read an old scroll. It's as natural as drinking water when you are thirsty - you don't think about it. It is not our right to be so - it is our essence. And as Origenes (4th century) said in reference to Paul, Gal 2,20: "And when Christ lived in Paul and not in me - of what use could that be for me?" And: "When you try to bring down divine spirit to the level of only superficial word-meaning, he will see no reason to come down and will return to his real home which is the only fitting home for him indeed."
I do not know much about North-American Indian's belief system, but the little I do know I have great sympathy for. They would make for better neighbours, culturally, than many other people this globe is plagued of.
Welcome back amongst the living, I just switched you on again. No problem with disagreeing with me - but I would appreciate it very much if in the future you would avoid to attack or offend me on a personal level or try to score a shot from behind. I don't like that ignore-list too much, but sometimes somebody just crosses that line that one time too often. Please don't.
Skybird
06-01-07, 07:25 AM
Thats how I figured you function.
Heee...! :stare: I am no second Data!
Thats exactly what I was trying to say in my silly verbose way, I just couldn't articulate it as effectively. It seems though that since Socialism in general (or Communism as the others seem to insist) is such a hurdle for men to achieve that it is somehow then to be seen as pointless or misguided. Since when has the goal of being better than one already is a terrible thing? Even if we can't get to the world that Marx would approve of then at least we can try and see it as far as it will go. To be a christian is to live to a standard higher than most any man can be judged fit yet it is one of the core elements of Western society. But a disdain for socialism is not a rational thing. I don't see many arguments that are fit to contradict how you or I characterize it,
But I do not propagate socialism. Social behavior, social acting and social responsebility does not automatically translate into "socialism" - that is something very different. And I do not have too much sympathy for it either. Like communism, and democracy, it makes some very basic false assumptions about man: that man is acting on the basis of reasonable decisions, has a basic altruistic drive and accepts social responsebility as a natural state of mankind. But fact is that most people in their usual ordinary lives decice oin the basis of moods, daily changing feelings, and wishes to possess this or that, wether it be a material or non-material thing or quality. How altruistic we are since birth you can see when observing little kids playing who still have not learned the need of sharing with others, and that can hurt other's feeling by acting rude. Social responsebility also needs to be learned. In fact, all these things need to be learned. Societies only differ in the degree to which they make teaching and learning thiese qualities a natural duty from chilkdhood on. Those rasing their kids accordingly from early on then give the impression that these qualities are a natural attiude of man. But this is not so. Capitalism - the absence of these qualities, and the non-accepting of non-material ethics and ideas, illustrates much better the real nature of man. And since that is self-damaging, we need to overcome it, or evolution will put us up for consideration sooner or later.
I've thought of something along those lines before. I often like to consider if maybe certain social dichotomies were the result of leftover insticts from the gender roles in the wild; that it isn't all the evil patriarchy that's to blame.
The forming of the patriarchat was very much a natural thing when farming and hunting became a new variable in our ancestor's lives. We know for example that pregnant women doing work on the field have a far higher risk of suffering miscarriages than women avoiding too hard physical work. The plow on the field was better operated by the stronger males, than by females. And so on. there are many arguments that even several feministic female writers today accept as an explanation that it was not all about evil males pushing weak innocent females into slavery.
Maybe the best way to put it is that a man can change drastically but people hardly change a bit. Something about that group dynamic robs us of all the good sense we have in private.
Or as I use to say: a group's IQ is inversely proportional to the size of the group. The greater the group, the more power it'S anonymous authority projects onto the individual's reason and mind. That'S why I never joined demonstrations, unions or parties: no thoughts, but slogans only - the cheap replacement for thoughts.
I believe they say that German is the most similar language to English.:cool:
Is it? Most Western languages are relatively close to each other, that's why linear translation often works reasonably well. but I also need to translate a lot in this forum, of course, and often realize that an adequate translation, no matter in what direction, simply is not possible, and needs a verbal workaround instead. However, in German you can construct completely new words by simply adding two old ones that in other languages can not be formed that way, but would need to be described in their meaning instead. This is very practical, and many of such words get exported into other languages. the extent to which this is done in German is a unique characteristic of German. If I would be asked, then I would say that French and German have far more in common. However, i like English very much, and always had huge problems with French - grammatically, French is far more difficult than English. At school, it was a nightmare for me. i also never was competent in pronouncing it. My English often is fluid and sounds American, I am often told, some British or American customer appearing in the warehouse where I work sometimes mistake me to be an American (by sound), but my French is - Martian. :lol: I'm glad that I am able to avoid this typical hard, lumpy German accent you often hear in German English - it sounds awful and would make me feel very uncertain. Better risk a laugh at times, but let it roll! :lol:
But I do not propagate socialism. Social behavior, social acting and social responsebility does not automatically translate into "socialism" - that is something very different. And I do not have too much sympathy for it either. Like communism, and democracy, it makes some very basic false assumptions about man: that man is acting on the basis of reasonable decisions, has a basic altruistic drive and accepts social responsebility as a natural state of mankind. Hmm, you know its funny but you really come off as a pinko when you make certain points. I suppose thats because you do accept certain things that the social left is sononymous with. Certain critical points on capitalism and such.
Certainly much of what is said and has been said is flawed in its assumptions. But thats why Marxism at the very least is better than a religion. People can still freely reinterpret some of it or reject entire parts of it. Its when you get religious about your politics that you lose your way. I myself am just a silly little boy finding my own place in the scheme of things. I fancy alot of this idealistic stuff, and like Sea Demon said in another thread, I'll definitely have to evalute my thoughts many times in the future.
I believe they say that German is the most similar language to English.:cool:
Is it? Most Western languages are relatively close to each other, that's why linear translation often works reasonably well. but I also need to translate a lot in this forum, of course, and often realize that an adequate translation, no matter in what direction, simply is not possible, and needs a verbal workaround instead. I do remember hearing that German is the one that suffers least in comparing general similarities. I often look at German words and see that they are almost identical to English ones. And its obvious also that Old English closely resembles a germanic language so there is an obvious and tight relationship there I'd wager. Its like when I read Chaucer. There is alot of stuff I don't understand but every few pages I'll see one line that is literally no different than English today. Its like a series of odd gutteral sounds and mutilated English and then suddenly my accent disappears and its 2007 again.:cool:
However, in German you can construct completely new words by simply adding two old ones that in other languages can not be formed that way, but would need to be described in their meaning instead. This is very practical, and many of such words get exported into other languages. the extent to which this is done in German is a unique characteristic of German. Now that I think is pretty cool. Creating words as a basic function of language is a very interesting ability. I don't think you could do it with english just because most people don't know 1/20th of the dictionary.
If I would be asked, then I would say that French and German have far more in common. However, i like English very much, and always had huge problems with French - grammatically, French is far more difficult than English. At school, it was a nightmare for me. i also never was competent in pronouncing it. My English often is fluid and sounds American, I am often told, some British or American customer appearing in the warehouse where I work sometimes mistake me to be an American (by sound), but my French is - Martian. :lol: I'm glad that I am able to avoid this typical hard, lumpy German accent you often hear in German English - it sounds awful and would make me feel very uncertain. Better risk a laugh at times, but let it roll! :lol: I took French Immersion in elemantary and part of high school. French is conversationally not that difficult language. However conjugating verbs and spelling it all out is about as convoluted as anything to do with the French ought to be. But I do recall that in less than 10 days in Quebec on a trip my speaking skills when from passable to very articulate. People were impressed at this Anglophone's French.:rotfl:
Now you may be right that French is most similar to German, but that doesn't preclude German being most similar to English.;)
I love languages. Its so fascinating to be sitting in a coffee shop and to overhear a very loud and energetic conversation in some language you don't know, trying to figure out which one it is.
Skybird
06-01-07, 08:33 AM
Now you may be right that French is most similar to German, but that doesn't preclude German being most similar to English.;)
Maybe, I could be wrong. I just remember that the link between German and English is "Plattdeutsch" (Low german?), and Dutch, I think. You can often see how a word from German is tranformed into a Dutch or Low German word, and from there changed into the English term.
Surprisingly, the Dutch seem to find it easier to understand German, than Germans to understand Dutch language. I often deal with Dutch in the warehouse, Münster is a preferred shopping target of them and relatively close to the border. Often they obviously do not speak German, but understand quite well what me or another German is telling them.
I today regret that I am not competent in French, it depends on what kind of voice is speaking it, but it can sound beautiful and melodic, like English (Orson Welles-kind voice preferred), and German (listen to texts of Rilke!). I also have a weak spot for chansons sung by Yves Montand - another one of these voices....
I today regret that I am not competent in French, it depends on what kind of voice is speaking it, but it can sound beautiful and melodic, like English (Orson Welles-kind voice preferred), and German (listen to texts of Rilke!). I also have a weak spot for chansons sung by Yves Montand - another one of these voices....
I myself have forgotten much of my French. I need to take another visit to Quebec soon. It really is a briliant place to go. The people are interesting and Montreal is a great cultural hotbed in Canada.
I for one love the sound of Old English and Gaelic poetry when read by someone who's properly versed in the language. Its such a full blooded sounding language. Especially gaelic. I have relatives on the Ilse of Skye in Scotland and in WW2 my grandfather visited them. There was naturally an old old man that spoke Gaelic. I just love that sound from the back of your throat.:D I have a list of languages I want to learn thats far too long.:roll:
Skybird
06-01-07, 07:17 PM
Gaelic!? Yes, me too, I am fascinated by the sound of it, but don't understand a word. If reading the text while somebody sings or talks Gaelic, i can't bring the written text into confomrity with what I hear, that differently it often is pronounced. I like The Corrs very much, but Andrea has some of her most beautiful songs sung in Gaelic on their last album. Great voice, great performing on stage (Corrs only and always live), great language, great music.
Gaelic!? Yes, me too, I am fascinated by the sound of it, but don't understand a word. If reading the text while somebody sings or talks Gaelic, i can't bring the written text into confomrity with what I hear, that differently it often is pronounced. I like The Corrs very much, but Andrea has some of her most beautiful songs sung in Gaelic on their last album. Great voice, great performing on stage (Corrs only and always live), great language, great music.
Being a Canadian it often feels as if I'm cultureless. Its like my country is an immigrant truck stop where we're all just trying to have a nice piece of pie. So I look back to my heritage and take some weird fetish in imagining Scotland. I want to buy a kilt in McIntosh tartan and move to Scotland, drink powerful blinding scotch and grow a shaggy beard. Maybe even run at a Frenchman naked swinging a broadsword.:p At the very lest I'm going to learn some Gaelic. I guess I'll start with the Corrs.:rotfl:
The west coast of canada is about as culturally alive as a dry graham cracker. :roll:
Heibges
06-01-07, 07:30 PM
Halliburton's Dubai Move Sparks Outcry Members Of Congress Criticize Move As Insult To U.S. Soldiers And Taxpayers DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 12, 2007 (CBS/AP) U.S. oil services firm Halliburton Co. is shifting its corporate headquarters and chief executive from Houston to Dubai in a move that immediately sparked criticism from U.S. members of Congress. Halliburton Chief Executive Dave Lesar, speaking at an energy conference in nearby Bahrain, said he will relocate to Dubai from Texas to oversee Halliburton's intensified focus on business in the Mideast and energy-hungry Asia, home to some of the world's most important oil and gas markets. [...] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/12/business/main2558620.shtml What was it, that rats had do to with ships? :hmm:
Yeh. Who ever would have thought that Halliburton is moving its HQ to where their main business profits and lower tax rates are?! Nah!
:roll:
Most companies only feel the need to incorporate in Rhode Island.
Skybird
06-01-07, 07:37 PM
I guess I'll start with the CorrsForget it, she's mine. All three of them. But you can have Jim.
I guess I'll start with the CorrsForget it, she's mine. All three of them. But you can have Jim.
Jeeze you're worse than Kpt. Lehmann and Katee Sackhoff! :rotfl:
Heibges
06-01-07, 11:32 PM
GW wouldn't be the first idiot son to bankrupt his country in ill-advised wars, and he probably won't be the last.
George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton seemed to have finally gotten the deficit under control, and now we are living fast and loose with our finances. It's also a shame that Bush Sr. doesn't generally get his due in the process, because when he raised taxes Bush Sr. reversed that Reagan nonsense of Trickle Down economics, or as Bush Sr. himself said Voodoo Economics.
Trickle down all the way to Grand Cayman, Nassau Bahamas, and the Isle of Mann.
George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton seemed to have finally gotten the deficit under control, and now we are living fast and loose with our finances. It's also a shame that Bush Sr. doesn't generally get his due in the process, because when he raised taxes Bush Sr. reversed that Reagan nonsense of Trickle Down economics, or as Bush Sr. himself said Voodoo Economics.
Trickle down all the way to Grand Cayman, Nassau Bahamas, and the Isle of Mann.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Nice.:up:
The Avon Lady
06-03-07, 01:31 AM
Halliburton's Dubai Move Sparks Outcry Members Of Congress Criticize Move As Insult To U.S. Soldiers And Taxpayers DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 12, 2007 (CBS/AP) U.S. oil services firm Halliburton Co. is shifting its corporate headquarters and chief executive from Houston to Dubai in a move that immediately sparked criticism from U.S. members of Congress. Halliburton Chief Executive Dave Lesar, speaking at an energy conference in nearby Bahrain, said he will relocate to Dubai from Texas to oversee Halliburton's intensified focus on business in the Mideast and energy-hungry Asia, home to some of the world's most important oil and gas markets. [...] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/12/business/main2558620.shtml What was it, that rats had do to with ships? :hmm:
Yeh. Who ever would have thought that Halliburton is moving its HQ to where their main business profits and lower tax rates are?! Nah!
:roll:
Most companies only feel the need to incorporate in Rhode Island.
I don't know what "most" means but in this day and age, a US oil-industry company heavily invested in a global economy moving more-than-offshore to retain possibly billions more in earnings is common business sense.
This is what's stretching the US economy - not oil linkage to dollars or euros - and it affects every major industry.
Heibges
06-03-07, 10:51 AM
Halliburton's Dubai Move Sparks Outcry Members Of Congress Criticize Move As Insult To U.S. Soldiers And Taxpayers DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 12, 2007 (CBS/AP) U.S. oil services firm Halliburton Co. is shifting its corporate headquarters and chief executive from Houston to Dubai in a move that immediately sparked criticism from U.S. members of Congress. Halliburton Chief Executive Dave Lesar, speaking at an energy conference in nearby Bahrain, said he will relocate to Dubai from Texas to oversee Halliburton's intensified focus on business in the Mideast and energy-hungry Asia, home to some of the world's most important oil and gas markets. [...] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/12/business/main2558620.shtml What was it, that rats had do to with ships? :hmm:
Yeh. Who ever would have thought that Halliburton is moving its HQ to where their main business profits and lower tax rates are?! Nah!
:roll:
Most companies only feel the need to incorporate in Rhode Island.
I don't know what "most" means but in this day and age, a US oil-industry company heavily invested in a global economy moving more-than-offshore to retain possibly billions more in earnings is common business sense.
This is what's stretching the US economy - not oil linkage to dollars or euros - and it affects every major industry.
Sorry, it was joke. Rhode Island has the most favorable laws for incorporation in the United States, so many companies incorporate there for this reason. Also, you don't need a physical office in Rhode Island to incorporate there. Rhose Island is also probably the most corrupt state in the United States.
And your other point is quite correct. In the United States, even a simple Non-W2 millionaire lacks prudence if he doesn't keep his assets offshore. I used to work as a salesman for a tax lawyer who specialized in offshore investments. When he told me who to look for it was "stupid non-W2 millionaires with lazy CPA's".
Since Halliburton will not longer be incorporated in America, I would hope they would be stripped of all their contacts, and those contracts given to American tax-paying companies.
So bully for Halliburton that they are screwing the US Government and taxpayers out of more money. Plus now they can hide all their documents overseas. Again, bully for them.
Skybird
06-03-07, 04:36 PM
As a matter of fact, big business today thinks and acts globally, not nationally, while politics still is nationally. That's why economny successfully evades politically control in a nation and must not care for social responsebilities it owes to the national communties who once brought it up and fostered it - it evades onto the global level, leaves responsebilities behind, moves to international places that are more friedly to it's interest, and it rotates it's money and activities around the globe 24h a day, following the dawning sun day by day. And that is the reason why political control, bound to the national level, and voter's decisions, more and more got weakened in past years and economy today is the real controlling power of today's goings. No wonder that economy finds globalization such a great thing! It does not care for the misery it creates in your country. Or my country. Or any country.
Countries have become close to irrelevant. Corporation is the name of the new age.
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