Sacred Relics, or distractions?

[Frau_Phillips]

I may be the only one who thinks about this, being a piece of liberal scum among you salty sea-dogs ;) but I thought I'd bring it up while you all still think I'm a frigging angel (heh) and I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I've been seeing a lot of stuff around lately concerning to "holiness" of certain artifacts. The bible, the Koran, the American flag, etc. To the respective cultures these things represent, if you so much as look at them funny, it's sacrilege.

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)

What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?

:doh:

[Letum]

The American tradition of "Pledges" in schools is nothing short of nationalistic indoctrination. It's most common amongst highly authoritarian nations. (and liked by highly authoritarian teachers as you noticed ;) ). That's why it was so popular in Nazi Germany.
It links in quite nicely with the ""holiness" of certain artifacts". Both the pledge and artifacts are revered or considered "holy" because it is one of the ways that authorities (Church, State or any hierarchy) use to make you feel like a small part of something bigger. This is useful to authorities because it opiates the masses and makes them more mailable. There are plenty of historic examples of where that leads.

That's reason enough to have a health degree of cynicism towards such things. Many people lack any cynicism about what is revered or received as "holy". However, you, clearly, do not and I applaud you for that!

If your interested in further reading take a look at classical 19th and early 20th century social anthropology.

[NefariousKoel]

I had to do the "Anthem" up until around 3rd grade. Every one of us kids hated the repetition of it. Every single one, including me. They stopped doing it at my school.

Everyone has national pride, but Americans just have a bit more. It's not an "indoctrination" of nazi proportions as some would like to think. It's a unity of individualism. Us jerkoff Ami believe we have a unique, individualistic nation and we're quite willing to defend that uniqueness.

An example would be the laughs I got over the past few years of people calling us "cowboys". While, in other countries, a cowboy was considered some jackass who randomly shot people and yelled "yee-haw", us Americans laughed because we know them as independent hard-asses who wouldn't put up with anyone else's bullsh*t.

It just went to show how different we are than much the rest of the world our ancestors left.

As for flag-waving, I don't do it. But I'm proud when I see it. That day mentioned too often.. I saw people literally everywhere waving them that very afternoon. It was a sight to see driving home on the interstate and every single overpass had people of all kinds with flags draped down the sides while people were making all the noise they could in unison no matter where they were. I don't think I'll ever see anything like that again. I also think we're the only nation that would show such unification in such a circumstance.

Relate us to Fascists all you want. We are the most divided nation you'll see, but everyone here is proud of their part and will stand up for what we are in a heartbeat.

[Smaragdadler]

Time to post a link to one of my favourite conspiracy-theories website. :D

http://rexcurry.net/pledge-utah2.jpg

---> http://rexcurry.net/

[The Avon Lady]

Rest in peace, Red Skelton (http://www.poofcat.com/july.html).

Good night and G-d bless!

[robbo180265]

I may be the only one who thinks about this, being a piece of liberal scum among you salty sea-dogs ;) but I thought I'd bring it up while you all still think I'm a frigging angel (heh) and I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I've been seeing a lot of stuff around lately concerning to "holiness" of certain artifacts. The bible, the Koran, the American flag, etc. To the respective cultures these things represent, if you so much as look at them funny, it's sacrilege.

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)

What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?

:doh:

Can't really comment too much on this subject(being a Brit). But from over here it's always looked a little weird and WW2 German -like, to do something like the pledge of allegiance, still if it works for you guys then great.

[Oberon]

Some nations have it, some don't. The Brits have the Union Jack/Flag, and it's taken enough stick over the years that no-one is really that bothered if some idiot in a Middle Eastern country decides to set fire to it, so long as it's not attached to a British soldier at the time. But we do have little bits of heritage and history that we are quite proud of, and it depends from area to area, Scotland may have Edinburgh castle, Wales has it's hills and valleys, England has Big Ben, Westminster, heritage buildings and such, and we do tend to get a bit ranked when tourists refer to our towns and villages as 'quaint' but even with the Royal family, to be honest, I think the US has more affection for the Royal family than some Brits ;)

I think since the end of the Empire and the Second World War, a lot of British people have gotten very empathetic towards their country, we may like it, but we realise it's not as good as we want it to be.

As for taking a pledge in school, well, I personally think it's up to the individual, if you don't want to recite the words than that's your decision...to be honest, it should be your freedom to do so, after all, it's that sort of freedom that the US was set up to have, wasn't it?

[robbo180265]

Some nations have it, some don't. The Brits have the Union Jack/Flag, and it's taken enough stick over the years that no-one is really that bothered if some idiot in a Middle Eastern country decides to set fire to it, so long as it's not attached to a British soldier at the time. But we do have little bits of heritage and history that we are quite proud of, and it depends from area to area, Scotland may have Edinburgh castle, Wales has it's hills and valleys, England has Big Ben, Westminster, heritage buildings and such, and we do tend to get a bit ranked when tourists refer to our towns and villages as 'quaint' but even with the Royal family, to be honest, I think the US has more affection for the Royal family than some Brits ;)

I think since the end of the Empire and the Second World War, a lot of British people have gotten very empathetic towards their country, we may like it, but we realise it's not as good as we want it to be.

As for taking a pledge in school, well, I personally think it's up to the individual, if you don't want to recite the words than that's your decision...to be honest, it should be your freedom to do so, after all, it's that sort of freedom that the US was set up to have, wasn't it?

Put much better than I could :up:

[Dowly]

I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I like this girl! :rotfl::up:

[Frau_Phillips]

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my porch. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?

I wasnt comparing any of you to facists at all, not for a second. I merely assumed that by your confidence in the army, and your obvious love of the navy, that you'd all be more patriotic then me, a freaking hippie.

Peace :rock:

[The Avon Lady]

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my backyard. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?
How many crackpots like this are there? I've never come across one.

Oh. Hello. :)

[Oberon]

Oh good grief, yeah, I must admit, I do have a slight twinge of pride when I see the Union Jack, and prefer it to the other flags (although the old hammer and sickle is a nice design...) but I don't think I've ever really flown one...hell, I don't even put up one for the England team in the World Cup...mainly because I know I'll have to take it down again in a few weeks. ;)

[Frau_Phillips]

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my backyard. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?
How many crackpots like this are there? I've never come across one.

Oh. Hello. :)

Try going to Catholic School for 8 years :p You'll meet a bunch of them XP

And hi ^-^

[The Avon Lady]

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my backyard. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?
How many crackpots like this are there? I've never come across one.

Oh. Hello. :)
Try going to Catholic School for 8 years :p You'll meet a bunch of them XP
No thanks. Only the good die young. :p

[DanCanovas]

*whisper" female bonding!

[Oberon]

Best leave them to it Dan, interrupting female bonding sessions is akin to hitting one of these at full speed in your Type VII.

http://www.ninetymilebeach.com/images/floatingmine.jpg

[DanCanovas]

yeh stand back and observe like a David Attenborough documentary!

[The Avon Lady]

yeh stand back and observe like a David Attenborough documentary!
So you're gonna climb up to the top of the tree canopy or something?

[DanCanovas]

yeh stand back and observe like a David Attenborough documentary!
So you're gonna climb up to the top of the tree canopy or something?

only if the subjects spot me!

[Oberon]

yeh stand back and observe like a David Attenborough documentary!
So you're gonna climb up to the top of the tree canopy or something?

http://www.meirionnyddoakwoods.org.uk/images/bird_hide250.jpg

Oberon: "Is this why women are nicknamed 'Birds'?"
Dan: "Hush, you don't want to alert them to our presence!"

[DanCanovas]

yeh stand back and observe like a David Attenborough documentary!
So you're gonna climb up to the top of the tree canopy or something?

http://www.meirionnyddoakwoods.org.uk/images/bird_hide250.jpg

Oberon: "Is this why women are nicknamed 'Birds'?"
Dan: "Hush, you don't want to alert them to our presence!"

:rotfl: thats fantastic!

[Skybird]

I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I like this girl! :rotfl::up:
Me too! :yep:

Serious, Frau Philips, I think you must not doubt your view, nor ask for confirmation of it. It seem to me you already have sorted the important thing from the unimportant ones. And that's what counts. Symbols are not of the same value than what they are pointing at - and many peopole forget that difference and make a cult of symbols exclusively, defending them in almost imperial if not totalitarian postures because they can't look beyond them.

Blessed be the ones revolting against this!

[Smaragdadler]

...
http://www.meirionnyddoakwoods.org.uk/images/bird_hide250.jpg

Oberon: "Is this why women are nicknamed 'Birds'?"
Dan: "Hush, you don't want to alert them to our presence!"
This text makes no sense with this photo - or one of you is an transvestite. :ping:

[Oberon]

...
http://www.meirionnyddoakwoods.org.uk/images/bird_hide250.jpg

Oberon: "Is this why women are nicknamed 'Birds'?"
Dan: "Hush, you don't want to alert them to our presence!"
This text makes no sense with this photo - or one of you is an transvestite. :ping:

Too many 'bad night at langtrees' avatars :-? :oops:

Seriously, I couldn't find a pic that worked as well as that one...so...erm...just...ignore the fact that the one on the left is a woman...pretend the other one of the conversation is out of camera view...it works for me. :yep:

[DanCanovas]

...
http://www.meirionnyddoakwoods.org.uk/images/bird_hide250.jpg

Oberon: "Is this why women are nicknamed 'Birds'?"
Dan: "Hush, you don't want to alert them to our presence!"
This text makes no sense with this photo - or one of you is an transvestite. :ping:

Too many 'bad night at langtrees' avatars :-? :oops:

Seriously, I couldn't find a pic that worked as well as that one...so...erm...just...ignore the fact that the one on the left is a woman...pretend the other one of the conversation is out of camera view...it works for me. :yep:

:rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Seriously, I couldn't find a pic that worked as well as that one...
I sort of picture you sillies like this:

http://www.oren.org.au/images/directaction/climbers.jpg

[DanCanovas]

Seriously, I couldn't find a pic that worked as well as that one...
I sort of picture you sillies like this:

http://www.oren.org.au/images/directaction/climbers.jpg


haha thats me!!! :p

[Oberon]

Definately!! Avon, you've got us spot on! :up:

[The Avon Lady]

Definately!! Avon, you've got us spot on! :up:
Last of the dodos. :yep:

[Oberon]

Definately!! Avon, you've got us spot on! :up:
Last of the dodos. :yep:

And proud of it! :know:

http://dodo.bibi.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Dodos_Last_Word.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[kiwi_2005]

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.

[August]

Rest in peace, Red Skelton (http://www.poofcat.com/july.html).

Good night and G-d bless!

Red Skelton was a very wise man.

[Letum]

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.

Damm right! The proper place for nationalism is in the sporting field and not schools! :D

[Yahoshua]

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

Question A: Yes.

Question B: This one I don't have a real answer for since each individuals' reasons may be different, but the short and general assumption they make is that you aren't on "their side."



I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)


More importantly: Did you respond? If you did, what did you say? If not, why didn't you? And if you could respond now, what would you say?



What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?
:doh:



No you're not a communist (as far as I know), and you can support an ideal without "worshipping" a material object (something that I'd object to doing). For example: I recognize that it is the Bill of Rights that has guaranteed me the freedoms I exercise today (well, what's left of them that is), not a Red, White, and Blue flag.


What I seem to find in people like your teacher, is that they tend to have a deep-seated respect for the flag but don't fully understand what it is that has guaranteed them their freedoms (aka. blind patriotism).


I have alot of respect for the flag and what it represents, but I don't swear my allegiance to it (the flag being a piece of cloth), to the government (being corrupted as it is now), or to other people (who are fallible and make mistakes). So my position is that I treat the flag with the respect and dignity it has earned, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to it.


When I see a foreigner burn our flag, I make little note of it because that foreigner is my enemy and is against the fredoms I enjoy. What I don't understand is how someone who lives here in the United States can drag the flag on the street, burn it, call our soldiers "baby-killers", and still sleep soundly in a nation they consider their enemy. It also boggles the mind how the same people denigrate the same freedoms they currently enjoy (the Bill of Rights) but refuse to emigrate to what they would consider "greener pastures."


The same would apply for religion. I don't care what someone outside of my religion thinks of it, because my religion applies to me and those in my religious community. A debate and exchange of ideas I can understand, but baseless vilification is something I don't understand.

Hope this helps.

[Frau_Phillips]

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)


More importantly: Did you respond? If you did, what did you say? If not, why didn't you? And if you could respond now, what would you say?

While I with the patriotic teacher, I did not respond. It wouldn't have done any good. When I was before a panel of administrators I calmly explained my reasoning, and was then let go with a stern warning, "Respect my flag, or find another one." which I can only assume to mean, "Get out of this country."

I loathe the Bible Belt...

EDIT-

Now this I dont condone.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/03/24/video-portland-protesters-serenade-troop-effigy-with-death-chants/

I may be upset with the administration, I may question the morals of America today, but this just makes me sick to my stomach.

[The Avon Lady]

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.
Damm right! The proper place for nationalism is in the sporting field and not schools! :D
Damn wrong! The proper place for teaching your children the rights and benefits of the country they live in (assuming we're not talking about N. Korea or Zimbabwe) and the importance to upholding the principles and guidelines which the country was founded on and should continue to stand for is in school and from an early age.

[Skybird]

Teaching the history and the reasons for historic events, and teaching the basic laws and values of a nation, is one thing. Not allowing questions about them, excluding them from critical analysis in favour of parroting slogans, and conditioning pupils by demanding obedience to these rules by installing blind fetishism - all this is something different.

[The Avon Lady]

Teaching the history and the reasons for historic events, and teaching the basic laws and values of a nation, is one thing. Not allowing questions about them, excluding them from critical analysis in favour of parroting slogans, and conditioning pupils by demanding obedience to these rules by installing blind fetishism - all this is something different.
I never said otherwise. I refer to the history and the potential of the US - not of its perfection. But children need to be taught how much there is to appreciate if they wish to someday uphold and perfect it even further, rather than letting it fall into disrepair out of familiarity.

[Skybird]

I did not mean you in special, but the whole thread in general, AL.

[TteFAboB]

What grade are we talking about here?

On the U-571 thread Frau Phillips mentioned that her colleagues are mind-numbed teenagers. That may have something to do with it. I don't see how mind-numbed teenagers would succeed in meeteing Skybird's requirement for critical analysis.

[Sailor Steve]

Funny thing; I just read a book on the history of the 'pledge' awhile back. Originally it was much shorter: "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". That was 1892.

In 1923 "my" was changed to "the", and "of the United States" was added. "Of America was added a year later.

Today's ultraconservatives get upset when liberals complain about the "Under God" part, without realizing that was added by congress in 1954.

Here's a site about some of it:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

I agree, it sounds like a loyalty oath required by a totalitarian country.

[Yahoshua]

While I with the patriotic teacher, I did not respond. It wouldn't have done any good. When I was before a panel of administrators I calmly explained my reasoning, and was then let go with a stern warning, "Respect my flag, or find another one." which I can only assume to mean, "Get out of this country."

I loathe the Bible Belt...


They went overboard on this one, and they've obviously gone the wrong way about doing it. If they merely want you to show respect for the flag, then they should've aksed/instructed so in a more calm and courteous manner, but they didn't. That's all there really is to it.



EDIT-

Now this I dont condone.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/03/24/video-portland-protesters-serenade-troop-effigy-with-death-chants/

I may be upset with the administration, I may question the morals of America today, but this just makes me sick to my stomach.


These sort of people are not my friends, nor are they my equals, and they're no better than a hostile enemy that is intent on my destruction.

[Happy Times]

What breeds these anarcho-communists?? Europe has a good number of them too. They look and sound the same everywhere, weird subculture.:roll:

[Yahoshua]

Partly from peer pressure.
Partly from brainwashing.
Partly from vain desire for perfection while ignoring the failures of past attempts (which I would define as insanity since they attempt to repeat the same experiment while expecting different results).
Partly because it is considered "cool" and "trendy" to be anti-(insert here)

Worst of all is that they actually believe their ideology to be true.

[perisher]

I have never understood this American thing about not letting the flag touch the ground and burning it if it gets dirty. Why can't you wash it?

I'm being serious, I was a signalman in the Royal Navy and I spent a lot of time washing dirty flags. I just can't see what is so bad about it touching the ground.

In Britain, Colours are lowerd to the ground as a salute to the Monarch, and, as Army Regimental Colours cost a fortune, because of all the gold thread, burning is too expensive an option.

[ASWnut101]

Not every time a flag randomly touches the ground do we burn one, but when one has been purposely mistreated, damaged, or defiled do we burn one. Ironically, it is a sign of respect for the country.


At least that's how I think it goes. Steve would probably know. :yep:

[Happy Times]

I have never understood this American thing about not letting the flag touch the ground and burning it if it gets dirty. Why can't you wash it?

I'm being serious, I was a signalman in the Royal Navy and I spent a lot of time washing dirty flags. I just can't see what is so bad about it touching the ground.

In Britain, Colours are lowerd to the ground as a salute to the Monarch, and, as Army Regimental Colours cost a fortune, because of all the gold thread, burning is too expensive an option.

We have the same policy as the Americans, very strict rules rules about how you can use the flag. If somebody, athlete for exsample, wraps the flag around him it isnt looked at very well.

[Skybird]

Symbolism...

What worries me is when symbols are rated higher than what they stand for, or nobody caring anymore for symbols being given as a distraction, while meanwhile what they are pointing at gets abused and violated in the hidden.

Males and their games! :lol:

My grandfather made a photo of himself, ones. He took on his old Wehrmachtsuniform (yep, it survived) - and instead of the regular medals, he wore a lot of metal-and-glas fun-medals from a carnival commitee. :up: Needless to say that the uniform also was... a bit tight...

Also want to say that he left one eye, better part of one lunge and one leg in the war - but not his humour. That's the spirit!

so next time you shake your head about me, remember: it's genetic.

[U-533]

I'm American

I respect others

I want truth

I want justice

I want peace

As I grew up my parents (Married now for 48 years) gave me ways to discern these things.
These ways have never failed me.

If you have no compass that is true then your course is a lie.

:sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[kurtz]

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.
Damm right! The proper place for nationalism is in the sporting field and not schools! :D
Damn wrong! The proper place for teaching your children the rights and benefits of the country they live in (assuming we're not talking about N. Korea or Zimbabwe) and the importance to upholding the principles and guidelines which the country was founded on and should continue to stand for is in school and from an early age.

I don't see that something can be right for one country and not another, to borrow from our American cousins; we hold these truths to be universal...

p.s. I hate the union flag, it's gaudy and doesn't represent me, now the cross of Saint George that I do like.

I like it because it represents the English people, it isn't the English people, it can fall on the ground and catch fire and I won't be burned or stained, however if some bloody immigrant burns it as an insult to us all then he should be thrown in the stocks and pelted with remaindered pork pies then deported. Also I don't care if they were born here they can be deported to the country they can love or their parents country, whichever one they can afford a ticket to, and yes I do think we should send the Normans home!

Sorry for the long rant without punctuation but I'm getting pretty sick of mohamedans.

[Skybird]

I don't see that something can be right for one country and not another,
Hm. (biting his tongue).

to borrow from our American cousins; we hold these truths to be universal...

Hm. "We" refers to 5% of mankind in this case. How can 5% claim to be representative for the other 95%? If so, then only the most general principles of human life can be meant. And then they are so much "general" that they are not so much an issue for political/national statements or laws, but touches more the realms of philosophy and religion. I know that by hostory the US is far more basing on relöigious grounds than other Western nations today, but still the US is meant to be a secular nation after all, or am I wrong?

The world is crowded by persons and peoples, tribes and countries sayingn that they are the keeper of the golden rules, and that their rules are universal, and that all others must comply. Islam too, btw. Many Nazis considered the fascist ideal to be universal, too.

See what came from such statements for universal domination: war, violence, and more of both. I wish the Us would considere itself less often to be on a God-wanted mission to bestow it's favour upon all mankind. Reminds me too much of god-sent kings, god-wanted wars, and god-ordered priests.

I myself would already be satisfied if those nations not in tolerable degree of conformity with us to stay away and leave us alone. Missionising the world has done far more bad than good throughout history of mankind. That also is true again for both the White Man, and Islam.

[kurtz]

Perhaps we misunderstand each other, skybird;

What I mean is it is either right for the state to indoctrinate children or isn't.

For truth to be something other than falsehood it must be a universal truth.

Mike

[Skybird]

:cry:

Öööööhhhhhmmm - i would say that I have not the smallest clue what you are saying or meaning, then. :-?

[Tchocky]

I remember reciting the pledge at school, I'm glad I was quite young at the time. In Ireland there's no such thing. How I feel about my flag is how I feel about my country, and that would be "conflicted". I didn't choose to be born here, or anywhere. My parents conceived there, and my mother chose to give birth in the Irish hospital, and not the British one just over the border. Big deal.

State-mandated nationalism, theism...ugh.

That said, I don't really understand people being proud of their country by default, which is what the pledge looks like to me.

[Iceman]

Psalms 79

[1] O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
[2] The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
[3] Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.
[4] We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us.
[5] How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
[6] Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.
[7] For they have devoured Jacob, and laid waste his dwelling place.
[8] O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
[10] Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
[11] Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die;
[12] And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord.
[13] So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations.

[Skybird]

I remember reciting the pledge at school, I'm glad I was quite young at the time. In Ireland there's no such thing. How I feel about my flag is how I feel about my country, and that would be "conflicted". I didn't choose to be born here, or anywhere. My parents conceived there, and my mother chose to give birth in the Irish hospital, and not the British one just over the border. Big deal.

State-mandated nationalism, theism...ugh.

That said, I don't really understand people being proud of their country by default, which is what the pledge looks like to me.

That pretty much sums it up for me. One cannot be proud of what one has not acchieved himself. One can like to be American, Or Irish, or German, once can enjoy to live in that place, be glad about it, like the people there - but being proud for having been subject to a random event? Or intentionally moving to a place - being prud to be an immigrant here or there? Shpould I be proud that I moved from Berlin to Osnabrück? Should I be ashamed for having given up Osnrbrück, and moved to Münster?

I forgot where the original essay was located, but some weeks ago I posted a link in this forum, an essay wehere it was argued that in fact america has not more but less sense of national unity, compared to european states, and that this is caused by it's character of being an immigrant nation. It also argued that this lack is felt quite well by americans, and leads to some kind of theatre-acting, or compensating for that loss - by exaggerating patriotism. Patriotism in that essay was understood to be something difefrent than national identity. The fist was referring to loyalty to rules and symbols, the latter to historically grown identity. If i remember correctly, that often pointed extremely high sense of mobility, and the tendency to think of all the globe being another part of America, and having the mission por right to make it a subject of Americanisation, was also given as a hint for that lacking sense of national identity, and rootlessness.

If somebody remembers that posting with that link of mine, remind me of it, please.

[U-533]

Well...

America will stand at least as long as I breath...

After that ...

What I can't understand is this ideology that standing up for what is truth is wrong.
Why do I gotta except things I know are wrong?
This idea of tolerance for everyone and everything is straight outta the pit of Hell!

It's crazy but I've met some people who claim to be "Tolerant" ... you know what I'm talkin about ... you have to except my way of life BS
They preach tolerance and they claim tolerance as away of life...

but when you tell them "NO" they sure get INTOLERANT real fast...

it just flies right out the window...

then the Tolerant ones start pointing fingers and calling names and even want to fight some want to kill you...
and what really trips me out is when you shoot'em to protect yourself from harm they act like you are supposed to take abuse because you aint tolerant like them

Keep your warm fuzzies.

Anyway ...

Thats what I'm reading here on this post and a few others that have passed before me on this screen.


I'm an American with a backbone!

When I'm dead y'all can do whatcha like with me.

Til' then stuff your warm fuzzies

[Sailor Steve]

Could you be more specific, please. Random denigration doesn't help anything.

[Iceman]

tt56t

[NefariousKoel]

I remember reciting the pledge at school, I'm glad I was quite young at the time. In Ireland there's no such thing. How I feel about my flag is how I feel about my country, and that would be "conflicted". I didn't choose to be born here, or anywhere. My parents conceived there, and my mother chose to give birth in the Irish hospital, and not the British one just over the border. Big deal.

State-mandated nationalism, theism...ugh.

That said, I don't really understand people being proud of their country by default, which is what the pledge looks like to me.

I mentioned how I disliked reciting 'the pledge' when I was younger, but it didn't have any effect on how I felt about my country when I got older. After watching world events unfold over a few decades, I became thankful for where I was.

Is having national pride really that dead in Europe? I think not when someone insults a European's nation... I see the reaction. Deep down they're still proud of who they are. It's just damn unfortunate that this political correctness has become second nature - even part of your culture.

Overall, I'm proud I'm an American because my ancestors left such staleness behind.

[Happy Times]

I remember reciting the pledge at school, I'm glad I was quite young at the time. In Ireland there's no such thing. How I feel about my flag is how I feel about my country, and that would be "conflicted". I didn't choose to be born here, or anywhere. My parents conceived there, and my mother chose to give birth in the Irish hospital, and not the British one just over the border. Big deal.

State-mandated nationalism, theism...ugh.

That said, I don't really understand people being proud of their country by default, which is what the pledge looks like to me.

I mentioned how I disliked reciting 'the pledge' when I was younger, but it didn't have any effect on how I felt about my country when I got older. After watching world events unfold over a few decades, I became thankful for where I was.

Is having national pride really that dead in Europe? I think not when someone insults a European's nation... I see the reaction. Deep down they're still proud of who they are. It's just damn unfortunate that this political correctness has become second nature - even part of your culture.

Overall, I'm proud I'm an American because my ancestors left such staleness behind.

Actually that pride is growing in European countries, i would say its coming a trend but i havent seen surveys or anything. I base it on people ive talked and conversations ive had. Even Germans started to show signs during the World Cup.
But i dont see many risks though, most see that taking it too far leads only in ruins, again. There seems to be a lot of respect in most EU countries towards eachothers history and culture. But most citizens in all member states dont want Turkey in the Union.:lol:
So i think it works as its suppose to, keep us together and not killing eachother.:rotfl:

[Tchocky]

I mentioned how I disliked reciting 'the pledge' when I was younger, but it didn't have any effect on how I felt about my country when I got older. After watching world events unfold over a few decades, I became thankful for where I was. True, it had little or no effect on me at the time also. It's the whole idea of getting up and swearing allegiance to a country every morning that I can't stand. If I was in my parents place at the time, I think I would have had issues with it, seeing as I'm not a US citizen :?
I haven't any real trouble with patriotism or nationalism, I just don't understand it. This isn't US-specific, btw, but I do shudder at the idea of a Pledge Of Allegiance, and making children say it. Pisses me off something horrid.

Is having national pride really that dead in Europe? I think not when someone insults a European's nation... I see the reaction. Deep down they're still proud of who they are. It's just damn unfortunate that this political correctness has become second nature - even part of your culture. National pride isn't dead at all, nor is political correctness the culprit. Personally, I prefer reasoned pride/shame of my nation, hence my status as "conflicted". Being proud of my country for a reason, not just because of my passport. I'm not going to honour my country by default, as my determined nationality has nothing to do with me.
If that's the death of national pride, fair enough. What political correctness do you see at work here?

Overall, I'm proud I'm an American because my ancestors left such staleness behind.That....makes no sense. You are proud of the choices of others, centuries in the past, which you are connected to by an accident of birth.

Sorry, don't meant to be mean, maybe if you could explain it a little more :)
me no understandy

[Ishmael]

Here's my idea of a Sacred Relic:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8391/chepie9fk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Happy Times]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/151/24091~Life-of-Brian-Posters.jpg

Heres mine.

[NefariousKoel]

Overall, I'm proud I'm an American because my ancestors left such staleness behind.That....makes no sense. You are proud of the choices of others, centuries in the past, which you are connected to by an accident of birth.

Sorry, don't meant to be mean, maybe if you could explain it a little more :)
me no understandy

What I'm trying to convey is that I'm happy my country isn't sliding into being a welfare state. It's just a personal preference. If I thought even more of my livelihood should be forcibly taken and given to others, then I'd be happier in Europe. Not to mention the docileness as a whole.

I've ever-increasingly become a conservative over my lifetime from life experiences and this place suits me much better than others is all. *shrug*

[Skybird]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/151/24091~Life-of-Brian-Posters.jpg

Heres mine.
That is a sacrileg what you did, and i feel deeply offended. don't you know that the name of B--n shall not be shown or spoken out in public? I should know, for it is my religion. You are a rabid racist dog, really. I am ashamed to live on the same continent with you. I have a right that you honour and respect my religion, and do not hurt my religious feelings. Shame on you :arrgh!: :down: :nope: Over here, we are about to raise a 70m high B--n monument to worhsip our m----r, of course there is a lot of protest and unknowing ignorrance, but that is why we raise the monument: to teach them on who B--n was, is and will be, and hwo they could serve him best. So I think it will not be a problem with locals once it is there. We and B--n only mean it well with ya all.

[Happy Times]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/151/24091~Life-of-Brian-Posters.jpg

Heres mine.
That is a sacrileg what you did, and i feel deeply offended. don't you know that the name of B--n shall not be shown or spoken out in public? I should know, for it is my religion. You are a rabid racist dog, really. I am ashamed to live on the same continent with you. I have a right that you honour and respect my religion, and do not hurt my religious feelings. Shame on you :arrgh!: :down: :nope: Over here, we are about to raise a 70m high B--n monument to worhsip our m----r, of course there is a lot of protest and unknowing ignorrance, but that is why we raise the monument: to teach them on who B--n was, is and will be, and hwo they could serve him best. So I think it will not be a problem with locals once it is there. We and B--n only mean it well with ya all.

Very sorry, i not familiar with your religion. Can you also have sexy time with your sister?

http://www.jaunted.com/files/3/borat_cannes_2.jpg