An alternative development

[wetwarev7]

From this other thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115153

If every member here donates 20 Bucks we can hire the dev team and they make the patch for us...and than Silent Hunter 5 and we sell it our own....:arrgh!:

Andreas


Now this is the best idea I've heard so far. How many coders do we have between us?

(EDIT: Maybe I should specify I am talking about building a subsim from scratch here...)

I wonder how well it would work, for us to pool our money together, maybe a pledge system or something, and put it up for grabs for any dev group willing to make what we want? They could recieve payment only when we voted and decided the product was finished to our satisfaction....

What do you think of this? Each one of us could pledge/invest a certain amount of money, say 50 bucks, (to an objective party if we put up cash). Features could be voted on by those who have pledged/invested.

If the current developing trend is away from PC and towards consoles, is this a viable way to get indipendant coders to keep us in submariner happiness?

[mookiemookie]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.

[U-Bones]

Do the math and finish the thought process before making conclusions.

That said: I would be willing to promise to buy a 2nd copy after an acceptable patch.

[wetwarev7]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.

Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.

[mookiemookie]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.

Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

[daft]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.

It would be awesome if it could be done, but I'm afraid the project would never be completed. How many of indie subsims under development have actually been released so far? None that I know of. For a thing like this to work, we'd have to be VERY official about it starting companies, employing coders, artists, management people etc, etc. The donations received would probably be gone before the company was even up and running. Sorry for being such a bore, but that's what I think would happen with a project like this.
:)

[U-Bones]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.
It would be awesome if it could be done, but I'm afraid the project would never be completed. How many of indie subsims under development have actually been released so far? None that I know of. For a thing like this to work, we'd have to be VERY official about it starting companies, employing coders, artists, management people etc, etc. The donations received would probably be gone before the company was even up and running. Sorry for being such a bore, but that's what I think would happen with a project like this.
:)

To put it into perspective, Ubi, an established producer, isn't even interested in writing a patch for an existing sub sim they already have code for.

[daft]

To put it into perspective, Ubi, an established producer, isn't even interested in writing a patch for an existing sub sim they already have code for.

I guess that's why they are established. Patches doesn't sell games. :)

[wetwarev7]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.

It would be awesome if it could be done, but I'm afraid the project would never be completed. How many of indie subsims under development have actually been released so far? None that I know of. For a thing like this to work, we'd have to be VERY official about it starting companies, employing coders, artists, management people etc, etc. The donations received would probably be gone before the company was even up and running. Sorry for being such a bore, but that's what I think would happen with a project like this.
:)

Is there no way to get around these problems? I think that if no money is paid till the job is complete, it would motivate the devs to complete it, and would also reduce waste. People, devs included, tend to be more financially responsible when it is thier money they are spending...

Basically what I'm talking about here is contract work. No finished product, no money.

What do you think? Yes, difficult, but is it possible?

[wetwarev7]

To put it into perspective, Ubi, an established producer, isn't even interested in writing a patch for an existing sub sim they already have code for.

I guess that's why they are established. Patches doesn't sell games. :)

Exactlly, why would they be interested on finishing the product when they have our money?

What I am proposeing it to not give the money untill we decide it's finished....

[skullman86]

Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

That just saved everyone $20 :rotfl:

It looks just as good as SH3 and it's only an alpha

[U-Bones]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.
It would be awesome if it could be done, but I'm afraid the project would never be completed. How many of indie subsims under development have actually been released so far? None that I know of. For a thing like this to work, we'd have to be VERY official about it starting companies, employing coders, artists, management people etc, etc. The donations received would probably be gone before the company was even up and running. Sorry for being such a bore, but that's what I think would happen with a project like this.
:)
Is there no way to get around these problems? I think that if no money is paid till the job is complete, it would motivate the devs to complete it, and would also reduce waste. People, devs included, tend to be more financially responsible when it is thier money they are spending...

Basically what I'm talking about here is contract work. No finished product, no money.

What do you think? Yes, difficult, but is it possible?

No money no work. Catch 22.
Coders need groceries too.

[U-Bones]

Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/
That just saved everyone $20 :rotfl:

It looks just as good as SH3 and it's only an alpha apparently

Not really. Except the alpha part...

[daft]

Is there no way to get around these problems? I think that if no money is paid till the job is complete, it would motivate the devs to complete it, and would also reduce waste. People, devs included, tend to be more financially responsible when it is thier money they are spending...

Basically what I'm talking about here is contract work. No finished product, no money.

What do you think? Yes, difficult, but is it possible?

I think it is doable if it's done at a professional level with people getting paid, having development milestones that must be reached. If you can get the right people to sign the dotted line and provide them with the necessary funds then yes, I think it can be done. But it will take a lot of money and even more hard work.

[wetwarev7]

No money no work. Catch 22.
Coders need groceries too.

And how much do we pay our modders? Do coders never work on personal projects?

[TDK1044]

Guys, to build a new sub sim from scratch, using a brand new game engine, would take a 25 member Dev team about 30 months and would cost in excess of three million Dollars.

[daft]

No money no work. Catch 22.
Coders need groceries too.
And how much do we pay our modders? Do coders never work on personal projects?

Building a new sim from scratch (even if you license a third party 3D-engine) is vastly different from modding a finished (or nearly finished) game. Before you can even start coding you to take about 4 million design decisions and work out how to implement them. Building a whole simulation from the ground up would take years, and who would pay the people involved so that they don't loose interest and abandon ship? Hobby modders are great, but I really can't see a game like this being built by a volonteer community. It has to be a very tightly knit group working together full time and sharing a common vision for it all to come together in the end.

[U-Bones]

Do coders never work on personal projects?
Not if they have no-compete clauses that apply.

[wetwarev7]

Before this turns into a debate rather than a discussion(these things turn so easily :p ), let me put it this way:

If I could gaurentee $50,000 to someone(s) if they completed a subsim to my satisfaction, finished, not broken, all features completed, don't you think someone(s) will step up to the plate and say "I(we) can do this."

This is just $50,000. $50 a piece for just 1000 people.

I am suggesting that with all the people we have here, just on this board, we could come up with a way to have a sub simulator built to our specifications. If we can bring in others on other boards, we would have even more monetary leverage. A logistical nightmare, yes, but I think it is doable.

[longam]

Maybe it works something like this. Maybe

UBI hires Sub Contractor to develop game.
SC agrees to a contract with a dead line for an amount of money
If deadline is not made penalties a steep.
SC hires a team of developers.
SC borrows money from bank to cover development during time period.
End date SC turns over game and gets paid.

Fuzzy part, it would seem that the Sub would have to pay for the Patching from here on out. Or risk never getting future jobs from big companies.

[wetwarev7]

Guys, to build a new sub sim from scratch, using a brand new game engine, would take a 25 member Dev team about 30 months and would cost in excess of three million Dollars.

I'd have to disagree with everyone who says it's too expensive. It's expensive for established devolpers because of the high overhead and bloated saleries of those who don't actually work on the project.

There are plenty of hobby programmers/3D artists out there who I think would do this kind of project for a fraction of the cost.

There are allready freeware game engines out there. There are allready better game engines that are not free, but cost very little that be used.

I aprreciate every one chiming in here, because the more I disagree with you, the more I see that it is possible. Call me silly, but I do see it :D

[U-Bones]

Before this turns into a debate rather than a discussion(these things turn so easily :p ), let me put it this way:

If I could gaurentee $50,000 to someone(s) if they completed a subsim to my satisfaction, finished, not broken, all features completed, don't you think someone(s) will step up to the plate and say "I(we) can do this."

This is just $50,000. $50 a piece for just 1000 people.

I am suggesting that with all the people we have here, just on this board, we could come up with a way to have a sub simulator built to our specifications. If we can bring in others on other boards, we would have even more monetary leverage. A logistical nightmare, yes, but I think it is doable.
My $50 suggestion (buy another copy post-patch) is much more realistic.

Your 50K buys one coder (for too short a time) with nothing left for lawyers. Snowballs ?

[wetwarev7]

My $50 suggestion (buy another copy post-patch) is much more realistic.
?

Can I sell you a car? Please? :D

Just kidding. I agree that if everyone agreed to buy a second copy post-patch they'd do it. Double the sales with a fraction of the work? Of course. I wouldn't buy the second copy just on principle, but it would work:up:

(Edit: ooo 400th post)

[daft]

Well, if you want to give it a go, by all means do. If you never try you will never succeed. :)

[Canonicus]

I'll be glad to chip-in,... say, .... $5000.00

Let me know who to make it out to and where to send it and its on its way.

(I'm very serious, mates!)

[wetwarev7]

That's the spirit!

Would anyone be willing to create/host a website for recording pledges?

Would need to store info such as who, how much, how to get in touch when we are ready to lump the money together, and would need an "i agree" button for the pledge promise. This would be the first stage, if we don't get enough pledges, it dies here.

Also, are there any lawyers here who would be willing to donate thier time to set up and manage a trust fund or something? (NOTE to LAWYERS: I said DONATE) :p

[cunnutazzo]

Guys, to build a new sub sim from scratch, using a brand new game engine, would take a 25 member Dev team about 30 months and would cost in excess of three million Dollars.
How many SH enthusiasts could be here? 5000, 10000, or more? Plus we can look for sponsors and the game could be developed for linux also. This could be a very good occasion to build a SH Open Foundation. Why not?
$3,000,000 could be a good price, but I think it could be cheaper because I don't think the devs guys get so much money from UBI. And we can pay more than UBI.

[TDK1044]

This is not feasible in any shape or form, but I love a thread that's positive for a change...if somewhat out of touch with reality. Enjoy.:D

[Canonicus]

This is not feasible in any shape or form, but I love a thread that's positive for a change...if somewhat out of touch with reality. Enjoy.:D

Thats what they told the Wright Bros....remember?

Well...I've never been a big fan of "reality"........

I believe in dreamin a little dream......

A SH4, whole and perfected....It can be done!!!

[daft]

This is not feasible in any shape or form, but I love a thread that's positive for a change...if somewhat out of touch with reality. Enjoy.:D
Thats what they told the Wright Bros....remember?

Well...I've never been a big fan of "reality"........

I believe in dreamin a little dream......

A SH4, whole and perfected....It can be done!!!

There's no such thing as perfection when it comes to software I'm afraid. ;)

[Canonicus]

This is not feasible in any shape or form, but I love a thread that's positive for a change...if somewhat out of touch with reality. Enjoy.:D
Thats what they told the Wright Bros....remember?

Well...I've never been a big fan of "reality"........

I believe in dreamin a little dream......

A SH4, whole and perfected....It can be done!!!

There's no such thing as perfection when it comes to software I'm afraid. ;)

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?

[wetwarev7]

This is not feasible in any shape or form, but I love a thread that's positive for a change...if somewhat out of touch with reality. Enjoy.:D

Thanks! :D

Let me ask you this(and anyone who does or does not think it can be done):
If I can get someone to build and host the website, would you be willing to make a pledge? Not put money up front, and we would not call in the pledges untill (and unless) we had enough to pay for subcontractors who had bid on it and a trust fund set in place, would you make a pledge?

[Canonicus]

yep......when do we start?

[Bane]

It's certainly feasible. Anything is feasible, it just takes the right people with the right attitude. Take StarWraith 3D Games (http://starwraith3dgames.home.att.net/go.htm) for example: it's pretty much one person with a passion for space sims, but there they are, five games up on the main page you can play.

[wetwarev7]

It's certainly feasible. Anything is feasible, it just takes the right people with the right attitude. Take StarWraith 3D Games (http://starwraith3dgames.home.att.net/go.htm) for example: it's pretty much one person with a passion for space sims, but there they are, five games up on the main page you can play.

I agree! There are a lot of games out there that have been made by just one or two people out there who just enjoy making games.

If you think about it, this is not very different from an activist lobbyist group. People like you and me, and him and her, in a community, and say "We want this. Things should be the way we want them to be" They organize, they put what they feel it's worth to them in, money and time wise, and they go for it.

Laws which affect millions get put into place in this way, just by a comparative handfull of people! That is no mean feat.....



We get started right now. I am calling for anyone who can help with the first stage, that being a website to log and store pledges. It may need a forum as well, let me see if I can get someone who allready has one to host a board for us first....

Now taking suggestions for a name to put on the webpage. I've seen one so far, but that might be a trademark infringement(SH).

How about Independant Submariner?(though that sounds a bit like a local newpaper)

[KrvKpt. Falke]

Now taking suggestions for a name to put on the webpage. I've seen one so far, but that might be a trademark infringement(SH).
How about Independant Submariner?(though that sounds a bit like a local newpaper)

How about:
ALAAAAARM!!!
or
Dive! Dive!

I think those are original names :D You know: not another Aces, Danger or something from The Deep ;)

[J-PG]

Before inventing the wheel over and over again ...

Suppose it would be a more effective approach to collect some money in order to pay some devs for a certain amount of time and make them work fulltime on a existing project like dangerdeep.

It looks already quite promising, and with only one or two fulltimers they will make huge steps in the right direction.

I doubt you will ever raise enough money to pay a full team of 25 or so. And there are always lots of people who promise to pay, but in the end don't. Especially if there a months or even years between the point they're making their promise, the point they're asked to pay and the point they get the product.

There's nothing wrong with having visions - but there's nothing wrong with taking small steps either.

Keep on

Jan-Peer

[Bane]

There's nothing wrong with having visions - but there's nothing wrong with taking small steps either. Yup, and in my opinion the first step should be to wait and see if patch 1.3 is developed or not before getting too far ahead of yourselves. That is, if this effort is any way related to that issue, which I assume it is.

[wetwarev7]

Before inventing the wheel over and over again ...

Suppose it would be a more effective approach to collect some money in order to pay some devs for a certain amount of time and make them work fulltime on a existing project like dangerdeep.

It looks already quite promising, and with only one or two fulltimers they will make huge steps in the right direction.

I doubt you will ever raise enough money to pay a full team of 25 or so. And there are always lots of people who promise to pay, but in the end don't. Especially if there a months or even years between the point they're making their promise, the point they're asked to pay and the point they get the product.

There's nothing wrong with having visions - but there's nothing wrong with taking small steps either.

Keep on

Jan-Peer

Good points!
I'm not talking about a 25 member team here, I'm talking about letting devs(pro and/or independant) bid on it. Also, once the pledges reach a certain amount, and bids have been made, then we collect the money and put it into a trust fund payable to the winning subcontractor. If the work does not get completed to our satisfaction within a certain time frame, everyone gets thier money back, and the subcontractors can try to sell thier work as a commercial release if they wish(Or not, depending on the contract).

The first small step I'm trying to get started is a dontated website to, yes, log and store pledge info. If that does not produce the desired results, the whole thing ends right there and then. If we do get enough pledges, and bids, we do the trust fund thing, and if too many people decide not to honor thier pledges, it ends there, and everyone who did pay gets thier money back.

[wetwarev7]

There's nothing wrong with having visions - but there's nothing wrong with taking small steps either. Yup, and in my opinion the first step should be to wait and see if patch 1.3 is developed or not before getting too far ahead of yourselves. That is, if this effort is any way related to that issue, which I assume it is.

Well, the whole thing did start when I got the idea from someone who was posting in a SH4 1.3 thread(take a look at the OP here). So it kinda is, but it aint. Even after the 1.3 patch, there will still be things that we would like in a sub simulator that just aren't in SH4. If we set things up like I am proposing, we can decide for ourselves what we want included in our own sub simulator.

[daft]

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?

No, since no software is completely free from bugs. ;)

[Canonicus]

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?

No, since no software is completely free from bugs. ;)

Ok then....How bout....

"A sim that's almost 100% free from coded defects related to lack of proper development because the software company refuses to give it the necessary resources".......

Better?

[daft]

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?
No, since no software is completely free from bugs. ;)
Ok then....How bout....

"A sim that's almost 100% free from coded defects related to lack of proper development because the software company refuses to give it the necessary resources".......

Better?

Well, no because... Just kidding. ;)

[Canonicus]

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?
No, since no software is completely free from bugs. ;)
Ok then....How bout....

"A sim that's almost 100% free from coded defects related to lack of proper development because the software company refuses to give it the necessary resources".......

Better?

Well, no because... Just kidding. ;)

Me too...mate :up:

[theluckyone17]

Well... I meant to say "without bugs"...
Is that better?
No, since no software is completely free from bugs. ;)
Ok then....How bout....

"A sim that's almost 100% free from coded defects related to lack of proper development because the software company refuses to give it the necessary resources".......

Better?

I prefer the "we've got access to the source code, so if we get irritated enough by such & such bug, we can actually put the effort into fixing the bug, without someone pitching a fit about their bottom line."

[SurfnSea]

TDK is right in that what I've read so far is a bit out of touch with reality. Also, At WPL, wasn't there something where a coder was hired to fix SH2?

Anyway, for those who want to follow the dream of an indy produced sub simulation created by SubSim folk may I point out the freeware simulator Orbiter? You can find info at www.orbitersim.com (http://www.orbitersim.com) Now if we followed that pattern but instead made it a sub sim instead of rocket ship sim then maybe we could have something. A simulator like that could also be easy for our modding community to add to. This could also open up the possibility for those who want to have a sub and DD simulator making it possible to have sub vs. DD again.

In short I'm saying find info on freeware sim Orbiter and then imagine sub instead of rocket. That project could start small but through easy moddability become more of the sim we would like. I guess I see it as something like building blocks; start off with a basic module then ad another then another etc.

This is just a brainstorming/ throwing around ideas thing, but who knows?

[Reaves]

I can be the treasurer if yall want. I don't mind holding onto your money while the game is in development.

*rubs hands together while grinning slyly.

[cunnutazzo]

This "declaration of indipendence" could sound like a "declaration of war" to UBI: we are honest and politically correct, so let's say to UBI our projects. If there is any possibility of a "combined" project we should examine it, otherwise let's start with a new project.

First we need of a "chief" and a team project manager, can subsim collaborate for this?

[wetwarev7]

TDK is right in that what I've read so far is a bit out of touch with reality. Also, At WPL, wasn't there something where a coder was hired to fix SH2?

Anyway, for those who want to follow the dream of an indy produced sub simulation created by SubSim folk may I point out the freeware simulator Orbiter? You can find info at www.orbitersim.com (http://www.orbitersim.com) Now if we followed that pattern but instead made it a sub sim instead of rocket ship sim then maybe we could have something. A simulator like that could also be easy for our modding community to add to. This could also open up the possibility for those who want to have a sub and DD simulator making it possible to have sub vs. DD again.

In short I'm saying find info on freeware sim Orbiter and then imagine sub instead of rocket. That project could start small but through easy moddability become more of the sim we would like. I guess I see it as something like building blocks; start off with a basic module then ad another then another etc.

This is just a brainstorming/ throwing around ideas thing, but who knows?

Thank you!
The reference to orbiter is another great example of a good simulator coded by one guy.

But what, exactly, do you find "a bit out of touch"?

To all nay-sayers:
If a small handfull of guys can produce such games as Mount&Blade, Orbiter, Virtual Sailor, Rise: The Vieneo Province, etc, why can't a small handfull of guys make a sub simulator? Why does it all of a sudden take 35 coders 30 months to do the same thing in the submarine genre?

Just why in tha name of all that is good and cheesy do some think it's unrealistic to scrape up some money and pay people who allready do this stuff just for fun to make a sub simulator? Are the laws and physics of our reality so far removed from everyone else?

It's unrealistic? It's impossible? I fail to see one shred of evidence that this is so.

Because it's never been done before? Because...what?

Tell me. Not so I can disagree with you(unless you are just plain wrong :p ), but so we can all see the problems ahead of us and plan accordingly. Tell me just what exactly is so unrealistic or impossible, point by point, spell it out for me, so we can all look at it, think about it, and offer solutions. It's ok to think we can't do it. But please help us by telling why.

[wetwarev7]

This "declaration of indipendence" could sound like a "declaration of war" to UBI: we are honest and politically correct, so let's say to UBI our projects. If there is any possibility of a "combined" project we should examine it, otherwise let's start with a new project.

First we need of a "chief" and a team project manager, can subsim collaborate for this?

I think every avenue should be explored, and would definatly welcome UBI joining up and helping out.

This really has nothing to do with UBI. The thread that gave the idea was, but this has nothing to do with them. Forget UBI. This isn't about patches, or getting back at them, or breaking away from them(When did I get acquired?). It's about trying to get THE sub simulator we have all dreamed about.

I've allways wanted all the interiors included, what have you allways wanted?

EDIT: Oh! Do we need a chief? Do you want the job? :)

[Schunken]

Ups, what I did start??? :D

My main Idea when write this I was think of "buying" the original Developers (was it Hungary or Rumania??) and let them make our patch...


Andreas (Schunken)

[StandingCow]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.
Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

Holy poop... have you guys tried this? Is it fun/good?

/me downloads.

[mookiemookie]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.
Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/
Holy poop... have you guys tried this? Is it fun/good?

/me downloads.

I have not, but that's where I would start if I were to start making my own sub game. Why reinvent the wheel when all that work has been started for you?

[StandingCow]

Unfortunately, there's no way would Ubisoft let this happen.
Ubisoft does not have a copyright on sub simulators, only on what they've produced, i.e., the Silent Hunter series.....I'm talking about making one from scratch.
Presto! Your wish is granted: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/
Holy poop... have you guys tried this? Is it fun/good?

/me downloads.
I have not, but that's where I would start if I were to start making my own sub game. Why reinvent the wheel when all that work has been started for you?

I gave it a quick try before bed... raised my parascope and was fired at by destroyers and sunk instantly... oops!

Going to try it again tonight, if escorts are that good it should be a fun game.

[cunnutazzo]

EDIT: Oh! Do we need a chief? Do you want the job? :)

No thanks, too dangerous for my nerves.. But I'll support open games like the sh series.

[DiveMonkey]

I wish I had the knowledge and skill to create a game.

I'd concentrate on a single High fidelity Sub, a complete interior from stem to stern that you could move threw like a FPS game, giving commands on the fly or sealing bulkheads as needed.

I'd want control of port and starboard engines and dive planes and risk "Man overboard!" if I ran sufficed in foul weather.

I'd want AI subs and fleet boats I could interact with and be able to call for help and have help arrive if I needed it.

I'd give ship AI the same ability...damage control, fire fighting, closing water tight hatches and abandon ship.

I dont want much! do I :rotfl: