Hardcore playing and the chronometer

[elanaiba]

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

[Dowly]

I would like to see it working as now there's only two options; automatic targeting and full manual. In SHIII it helped me alot to first try the game with the semi-manual method, before going full manual.

[Keelbuster]

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.
Heh...arg. Well, first of all, it's a planned, advertised feature, so it should work. Period. But otherwise, as a hardcore man targetter, I need all the data I can get. All of my estimates are noisy (3.15 rule, pacing, chronometer, guessing based on identity). I take a little bit of information from all of them to provide the best estimate. This is where the most skill comes in. There is also skill involved in judging AoB, which is an important aspect of chronometer based speed estimates. My suggestion is to play some SH3 with man targetting, no WO or WE assistance, and no external cam. Go ahead and piece together a firing solution. You need every measure you can get, and the uncertainty is what makes it fun.

[U-Bones]

From someone who always played auto in sh3, but has started to occasaionally play manual in sh4, it would be a welcome middle road, simpy because it saves time. Yes I can mark the map and repeat in 3 minutes, but this simulates that and saves time better spent flipping through the ID book (which i also have mixed feelings about). I am just slow, and I am sure I will improve over time.

That said, to me the cron/speed is not most important, but I say that sensing I am a minority on the issue. To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

[Keelbuster]

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...

[SteamWake]

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?

[MONOLITH]

I agree with both sides on this.

Most of us are here at subsim because we are hardcore simmers. I agree that the real joy in these types of sims is doing it the hard manual way. Having a magic speed telling button goes against the real sim experience.

I also have to agree though, that if it's "in the manual", it should be working in the game. One of those that really bugs me is the ability to make notes on the map. We've been asking for that since the release of SH3. Then, it showed up in the SH4 manual, and it was cause for celebration. It was a real let down to have it not exist anywhere in the game.


Regardless, I can live without the magic clock. It's more fun doing it manually anyway. If we could only have a few things fixed, I could pass on the chronometer in favor of some other issues.

[Uber Gruber]

Personally, I don't give a flying monkey about the Chronometer....I agree with the original post. However, this is just my oppinion, i'm sure others would like it to work.

[MONOLITH]

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?


One of the biggest things we need around here, is to stop beating on each other. Please.

Post #22


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114948&page=2

[OlegM]

Good question Dan, and I for one fully support the chrono as it is now. If I want to play hardcore, I want to play hardcore, meaning I calc the speed myself, period! I never even understood the people saying chrono does not work. They mean to say auto-speed calc does not work? Well who cares :)

To people who talk about "planned, advertised feature" - you make me laugh :rotfl:

"Advertised feature"? You mean like Ubisoft bought 2 page spread ad in the PC Gamer saying SH 4 WILL HAVE AUTO-SPEED CALCULATING CHRONO? LOL :rotfl:

[Dowly]

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer. :roll:

[U-Bones]

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.
Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...
Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?

I did, unlike you.

[OlegM]

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.

Of course, and no problem. I too still sometimes play with auto targetting.

BUT when I play hardcore I expect hardcore.

BTW I think the great flexibility of SH4 in adjustments that vary from catering to casual player to hardcore pro is one of the great strengths and selling points for this game :up:

[btaft]

I don't have an issue with the chrono as it is now, though I can see how others would. I believe in real life the skipper would obtain speed through one of three methods

1) Taking two positions and measuring the distance and time to get rate

2) Use the method of seeing how long the target takes to pass thru a mark and use the length and time

3) Match speed and course

I think the chrono works fine for all three of those. The only potential argument comes into play with method #2. I believe in real life a skipper could use a "wheel" to find the time length and time time to get the distance. The "as advertised" chrono would in essence simulate turning the wheel to the correct speed (thus not requiring any real calculations).

Like I said I am ok with it and have in fact just set up a spreasheet to do what a wheel would do for #2 anyways.

One thing that does make manual targeting a bear is the discrepancy (sometimes quite large) between the visual mast heights and the ones used in the stadimeter. These can lead to fairly gross plotting errors and thus make calculating speed via #1 very problematic. I realize this is easily fixed...modded. I would like to know if this is an intended feature (i.e. intel on the enemy was not perfect and was in fact variable to a certain extent within the same class). If so I am ok with it since it kind of adds to the immersion by making a skipper lean more towards a typical spread to ensure at least a couple hits on a high value target (although the mast height differences on a couple of the carriers are off quite a bit).

I do like one aspect of the chrono though......and that is I can pull it up on any screen I want. It really helps with doing other tasks and keeping an eye on when I need to take another range reading.

[AirborneTD]

I agree with Btaft. I also know (from extensive reading) that real sub skippers would usually have the speed (and true course, zig zags, etc) worked out by using radar. This is something you can also do now with this game.

I have no problem with the chronometer not working as advertised. I use manual targeting and calculate speed myself using radar and/or visual sightings over time between 2 points--using the in-game chronometer.

[U-Bones]

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.
Of course, and no problem. I too still sometimes play with auto targetting.

BUT when I play hardcore I expect hardcore.

BTW I think the great flexibility of SH4 in adjustments that vary from catering to casual player to hardcore pro is one of the great strengths and selling points for this game :up:
I agree with this. With a stable patch base it can have very wide appeal and a bright future.

Edit: Stable may be the wrong word, acceptable/workable/reasonable is what I was aiming for.

[Bilge_Rat]

I am of two minds on this issue as well.

Lack of a working chrono forced me to learn full manual targeting, and yes, it works quite well if you take your time, so it is not a game killer if it stays as is.

more casual gamers can use Auto TDC, if they don't want to be bothered.


Elanaiba, if the Dev team has to make some hard choices about a possible 1.3 patch, which I presume is part of the reason you are posting, then I would say the Radar and Convoy AI are more important to fix than the Chrono.

[U-Bones]

I am of two minds on this issue as well.

Lack of a working chrono forced me to learn full manual targeting, and yes, it works quite well if you take your time, so it is not a game killer if it stays as is.

more casual gamers can use Auto TDC, if they don't want to be bothered.


Elanaiba, if the Dev team has to make some hard choices about a possible 1.3 patch, which I presume is part of the reason you are posting, then I would say the Radar and Convoy AI are more important to fix than the Chrono.
Exactly why I offered alternate opinion on priorities. 100% agreed.

[Target]

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.

[daft]

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.

I agree. The chronometer would take some of the load off me, and that is just what I want. I don't need to be the whole crew, so a working chrono would be great. Having said that, if I have to choose I'd fix the AI-bug, radar and weird stadimeter bug first.

[GT182]

If it says it should work in the manual then it should be fixed to work whether or not you want to use it. And a some point in time you might want the chronometer working, and so it should be available.

Case in point, it's the same as with the headlights on my car. Or any of the lights on my car. I buy a car and they don't work then they must be fixed by the maker's representative so I can drive at night. Not ignored as the buyer has rights that must be dealt with by the maker of the auto.... a warranty was given and it must be upheld.

The EULA for SH4 says so too under #5 Warranty... that the buyer has the right that SH4 be free from defects for 90days. And fixing SH4 I believe falls under that warranty stated. Your defects will last longer than 90 days but still need to be fixed.

But too in #7 Liability it states that... and I quote it verbatum as printed out.

"In no event can UbiSoft be held responsible for any direct, consequential, accidental, special, ancillary or other damages arising out of the use or inability to use the multimedia product, as well as the out of the ownership or poor functioning thereof, even if UbiSoft has been advised of the possibility of such damages.
In particular, UbiSoft accepts no liability reguarding use of the Multimedia product contrary to the precautions for use set out in the manual and on the packaging.
As some legislations do not allow exemption from liability in the even of direct or incidental damages, it is possible that the aforementioned exculusion does not apply to the user.
This License to use the Multimedia product grants specific rights to the user and he may have other rights depending on the laws in his state."

These rights we do have and fixing SH4 so it works as said in the "UbiSoft SH4 Manual" is a part of those rights.

[Keelbuster]

Actually, it would have been nice to have your range updates drawn on the map, straight from the stadimeter, as if one of your officers plotted it for you. I'm fine to live without having the chronometer wired into the calculation of speed - i can do it myself over a larger number of readings. In SH3 I'd use the chronometer at the last minute, at close range, as a short-interval measure of speed that I could compare with the value I had calculated over my approach readings (long interval, large error, lots of averaging). This was not a 'magic' reading, as was implied by another member, but rather a computation from AoB and the change in bearing over a short interval. We do an equivalent calculation using the approach readings. But using the chrono (in sh3) allowed a short interval speed estimate (virtually impossible to plot using the sh3 plotting interface) that could confirm or correct the estimate that was derived on approach. Having the navigator draw the bearing lines with my stated range, and intervals of my choosing (i.e. at useful points along the chrono), would help reduce error induced by zooming/drawing on the nav map with finicky tools and I think it would better simulate the firing solution process. If we had that I could do quick and accurate short interval speed estimates without the chrono. I guess, in the end, the final check is done by eye - how fast is the brute moving when you're approximately 90AoB, and how flat is the smoke trail. I end up using these a lot in SH3.

But that's off the point, which is: we could live without the chrono if we had highly usable plotting tools or (realistically) semi-automated range plotting. And a nice flexible speed ruler.

SH4 was built around flashy graphics and arcade gameplay, and hence I've sortof given up on it ever satisfying as a nuts & bolts sim. The other posters are right in saying that the convoy AI and damage control blunders should be solved first - at least then it would be a working arcade game.

[LukeFF]

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.
You are exactly right. This is what I posted on this issue a while back:

Too many people look at the chronomoter as a black & white issue, that is, as some sort of magic tool that doesn't exist in reality. Rather, the chronometer should be seen as an abstraction - when you've locked on to the target and started the timer, in essence you've called out the range and bearing to your plotting officer and are telling him to estimate the target's speed once you've stopped the timer. Seen that way, the chronomter isn't a "magic button" only suitable for less-realistic settings.

Having a working chronometer is a must-have fix for this game. It is as much of a valid option as is using other methods to calculate speed.

[MONOLITH]

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer. :roll:

Yep, you're right Dowly. Sorry, I wasn't trying to exclude anyone.

[JSF]

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?


One of the biggest things we need around here, is to stop beating on each other. Please.

Post #22


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114948&page=2

Word

[bruschi sauro]

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.
I have payed for one copy oF SH4 € 54,00 :down: and the game not work well OK?
The manual show the chronometer as working! OK
while not working. OK:down: The chronimeter mut work!
For you this game is a work well done?:shifty:

[RocketDog]

1. The chronometer simulates the contributions of other members of the TDC team. It's not a magic button.

2. The interface doesn't really give us the proper tools to do a full manual targeting.

3. Not using the chronometer is really tough because the manual doesn't explain properly how to go about targeting in its absence. We have to trawl forums like this in order to find out techniques like the 3-minute rule.

Overall, I think it should either be in the game and working or not in the game at all. What is particularly exasperating was that it worked in SH3 - it's not even new feature.

Cheers,

RD.

[Argus00]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period. Giving the player the option to actually use it or not is also a smart move.

However, I think that SH4 has other issues of a WAY greater magnitude on gameplay - for both the hardcore simmers and the casual arcaders - than a chronometer that's not working properly.

[LukeFF]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period. Giving the player the option to actually use it or not is also a smart move.

However, I think that SH4 has other issues of a WAY greater magnitude on gameplay - for both the hardcore simmers and the casual arcaders - than a chronometer that's not working properly.

You contradict yourself with that statement. How can you say, "If it's in the manual, it should work," and then right below say there are more important gameplay issues that need to be fixed??? A working chronometer as described in the manual is important for gameplay and isn't some magical cheat!

[OlegM]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period.

LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.

[U-Bones]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period.
LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.

This is correct. Documents should document accurately, nothing more.

[LukeFF]

LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.

The problem is, we have a working chronometer in SH3, so obviously some sort of bug slipped in with SH4. In this case, it's the game that's at fault, not the manual.

[OlegM]

The problem is, we have a working chronometer in SH3, so obviously some sort of bug slipped in with SH4. In this case, it's the game that's at fault, not the manual.

Chrono *IS* working in SH4 - however auto speed calc does not. Perhaps the part of the manual was just copy/pasted from SH3, even though developers intended to make chrono work exactly like it does in the game? (See the first post by elanaiba).

That would mean the game actually works as designed, and manual is buggy (which would not be the first such case anyway). :|\\

Just say it, I want auto calc back, stop blaming the chrono (which works fine) :rotfl:

[Keelbuster]

[quote=Argus00]there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.
well, when i'm reading the manual, while taking a crap, and then i find out that there's crap in the manual then....welll.....yea.

[LukeFF]

Chrono *IS* working in SH4 - however auto speed calc does not. Perhaps the part of the manual was just copy/pasted from SH3, even though developers intended to make chrono work exactly like it does in the game? (See the first post by elanaiba).
I just checked it - both manuals have the same second paragraph in them WRT to how the chrono should work. Here is the difference:

SH3 Manual, preceding paragraph:

The Speed section of the notepad is simple to use and understand. You are basically taking sightings (range + bearing) of a target over a period of time (emphasis added). Using this data and your own speed and course, you can determine the target's speed.
SH4 Manual, preceding paragraph:

The more precise but also more time-consuming method is to take multiple sightings (range + bearing) (aha! now where have I read that before!) of a target over a period of time. Using this data and your own speed and course, you can determine the target's speed. An automated method is implemented in the game.
Taking sightings over a period of time. Nothing in there about it being a magical cheat, nothing there about it being something only beginners should use. The fact is, this is exactly how WWII skippers estimated a target's speed, not "take the ship's length, divide by 3, add 2, time it over three minutes, and subtract two decimal places when using metric, when the skies are cloudy and the waves are rough." Having a working chronometer simulates precisely the method used to estimate a target's speed. There is nothing wimpy or arcadeish about that.

[elanaiba]

Now now... I'm pretty sure they didn't push a button and wait a few seconds to get the speed, during WW2. Hardly exactly...

[Major Johnson]

Well first I would like to thank Elanaiba for even acknowledging that we exist, and asking for some info. But I'm getting a little nervous here. I know this thread was originally about the chronometer, but 2-3 other issues were brought up as well. I for one would be very dissatisfied if the next patch only addressed 4 issues! There's a thread in here somewhere with 50+ bugs!! I don't care how long it takes, but I for one would like to see more than 50% addressed! Granted the issues brought up here should be addressed, but I really don't to compromise the farm!

[Snowman999]

Now now... I'm pretty sure they didn't push a button and wait a few seconds to get the speed, during WW2. Hardly exactly...

You're correct.

Sonar told them by use of turn counts . . .

[SteamWake]

Now now... I'm pretty sure they didn't push a button and wait a few seconds to get the speed, during WW2. Hardly exactly...

You're correct.

Sonar told them by use of turn counts . . .

Which YOU can use as well if you have a good ear and keep good notes.

[Dowly]

Now now... I'm pretty sure they didn't push a button and wait a few seconds to get the speed, during WW2. Hardly exactly...

I have to say, I'm very disappointed. You are trying to find excuses for a broken feature. :shifty: Like said, it is in the manual, so it should be in game too. Working one, that is.

[OlegM]

I have to say, I'm very disappointed. You are trying to find excuses for a broken feature. :shifty: Like said, it is in the manual, so it should be in game too. Working one, that is.

So if, due to printer's screwup, SH4 manual came out with parts belonging to Rainbow 6 Vegas manual, you'd ask "where are the terrorists, slot machines and stun grenades in this game???" :rotfl:

elanaiba explained to you that the feature is not broken, it works as intended. Manual is WRONG. Game is not. :|\\

[Dowly]

I have to say, I'm very disappointed. You are trying to find excuses for a broken feature. :shifty: Like said, it is in the manual, so it should be in game too. Working one, that is.
So if, due to printer's screwup, SH4 manual came out with parts belonging to Rainbow 6 Vegas manual, you'd ask "where are the terrorists, slot machines and stun grenades in this game???" :rotfl:

elanaiba explained to you that the feature is not broken, it works as intended. Manual is WRONG. Game is not. :|\\

Yeh, well for me that's just another excuse. Maybe he read my post where I said something like "There's no law to force the devs to patch their games. If someone sues them for the game having multiple broken features, the devs can just say 'We intended it like that'." :roll:

[OlegM]

Yeh, well for me that's just another excuse. Maybe he read my post where I said something like "There's no law to force the devs to patch their games. If someone sues them for the game having multiple broken features, the devs can just say 'We intended it like that'."

Sometimes they can sometimes they can't. You may notice that there is actually quite a sizable part of the community that likes the chrono as it is and think it does not need changing. (Or, rather, that other issues should have higher priority.)

[Dowly]

What about the new guys that dont belong to any of the forums? I learned manual targeting in SHIII via the semi-manual method. Now, there's only two choices, full auto or full manual.

[elanaiba]

Now let's clear one thing up. The fact that there is a discrepancy between the manual and the game doesn't mean the game is wrong.

Technically speaking, I don't think having something in the manual constitutes false advertisement. You know, to read it you have to buy the game, so you can't say you based your decision on that feature.

Excuses? Perhaps I'm joking a little bit, but that doesn't mean I'm taking this less serious. The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.

"The fact is, this is exactly how WWII skippers estimated a target's speed"

The key here is the word "exactly" - a seemingly scientific correspondence between our SH3 "get target speed" button and actual WW2 practice. Good "placeholder", perhaps, but exact representation, hardly.

But, regardless of this, I wish not clash sword with you proving I'm right right right as some developers use to do.We'll TRY to fix it and you'll have your speed estimation.

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely ;)

[elanaiba]

Yeh, well for me that's just another excuse. Maybe he read my post where I said something like "There's no law to force the devs to patch their games. If someone sues them for the game having multiple broken features, the devs can just say 'We intended it like that'." :roll:

Its easy to assume all sorts of things Dowly. That doesn't mean their true though. And this dev is not tricking this community.

[Dowly]

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely ;)

If I can keelhaul him afterwards, I'm happy. :D

[OlegM]

Its easy to assume all sorts of things Dowly. That doesn't mean their true though. And this dev is not tricking this community.

Mate you're too kind to these people :arrgh!:

(jokinggg!! :rotfl: )

[LukeFF]

"The fact is, this is exactly how WWII skippers estimated a target's speed"

The key here is the word "exactly" - a seemingly scientific correspondence between our SH3 "get target speed" button and actual WW2 practice. Good "placeholder", perhaps, but exact representation, hardly.

But, regardless of this, I wish not clash sword with you proving I'm right right right as some developers use to do.We'll TRY to fix it and you'll have your speed estimation.

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely ;)
Okay, let me tone it down a bit, since I did come on strong back when I made that post:

Basically, I see using the chronometer to estimate speed in an abstract manner. Yes, of course, WWII sub commanders didn't simply "push a button" to determine a target's speed. What the chronometer does represent, though, is the captain calling out a range and bearing to the plotting officer, waiting a while, and then calling out a second range and bearing for the plotter to use in order to estimate the target's speed, using a nomograph or other such device. And yes, using turn count estimates from the sonarman would also come into play.

Now, all that makes sense, does it not? The more tools you give to the player to estimate the target's speed, the better off everyone will be. Some people will prefer one method, other's, another. I just prefer to use a method that was common practice during the war.

And I certainly won't complain when my new ensign messes it up. :shifty: That's just part of the human error factor.

[heartc]

The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.


Yep. I would say the radar and even more importantly the AI, with convoys coming to a stop / 1 knots speed once the first torpedo goes off, and escorts often sitting there idle watching the show. Last time I attacked a convoy I got so frustrated that I surfaced, chased down and sank 3 destroyers with the deck gun...I only recieved a single burst of MG fire from one of them...it was far worse than Hollywood. And this was even with the improved escorts mod from Kakemann.

I've been a staunch supporter of this game, but an AI like that in a simulation is unacceptable and a showstopper. Please fix it.

[U-Bones]

The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.


Thats why I went right away to alternate priorities. I will add another that is seldom mentioned & I think would add to the playability of all types of players.

A large part of the frustration with damage control is that heavy damage often never gets a fighting chance because flooding affects the trim of the boat so profoundly that very high speeds have to be used to keep from going terminally deep in very few minutes.

The overall effect is as if water is heaver inside the sub than out. If the overly dramatic sinking (from even light to moderate flooding) could be mitgated, a LOT of the negativity associated with damage control would dissipate. Wait for the flooding to get out of control before making depth control a lost cause.

IMO this is a major bang for the buck fix. Hope it strikes a chord.

[joea]

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely ;)
If I can keelhaul him afterwards, I'm happy. :D

Ohhhhh that's sounds promising ... really am impressed with the advances in crew management in this sim.

[Argus00]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period.

LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.

OK - untwisted logic, then.

UBI should go for the cheaper fix, which would be to reprint the manual to have it say "The more precise but also more time-consuming method is to take multiple sightings (range + bearing) of a target over a period of time. Using this data and your own speed and course, you can determine the target's speed. An automated method is implemented in the game, BUT IT DOESN'T WORK, SO DON'T BOTHER WITH IT."

[KrvKpt. Falke]

I must say that not-working chronometer (and position keeper - i love it!, and Onkel Neals video ;)) in SH4 helped me to learn manual targeting (i played SHIII for 2 years with WO assistance :lol: ), but i remember how confused i ve been trying to get speed "the old way" (SH3 way).
You wanted to sell SH4 to as much casual, non-hardcore players as possible and at the same time you got rid of auto speed calculation and WO assistance. In my opinion it was wrong move.
You know - i don't need working chronometer now when i know how to calculate speed (and had some SH3 experience so it was easy to learn) but people new to Silent Hunter series must learn it the hard way (especially without "working" manual).

BUT! If you must to choose between fixing chronometer and fixing AI... Well, fix AI :)

[Rafter11]

I have started using RFB 2.7 mod. It has included a nomograph (something I had never heard of until yesterday). It is simple to use the plotting information with the nomograph to calculate the target speed. So I really don't think we need the Chronometer. However since it looks like 1.3 is coming, and if Ubisoft wants to add it, ok by me.

I am a little puzzled by the AOB picture I get in the periscope/TBT views. They often don't represent the actual AOB. I don't know if that is a bug, my machine problem or just something requiring more skill.

Anyway I think SH IV is a great game that needs some fixing by the devs. RFB 2.7 fixed a lot of the troubles. Now that I hear Ubisoft is going to do 1.3, I am a happy camper.

[Egan]

Although I understand why people are annoyed that the Stopwatch doesn't appear to work as it apparently did in SH3 I can claim to having never used either of them.

I get my speed estimates either from guesses if I'm loosing off a snapshot or through running a manual plot (TMA or whatever you want to call it,) on the nav screen when I have the time to actually stalk enemy shipping. Occasionally I use the Nomograph but I find that I don't even really need to bother with that anymore. This is how I did it in Sh3 as well. I used the watch about twice, got really bad results from it and never tried again. Of course a manual plot would be harder if there was a greater variety in convoy speeds, zig-zagging etc

For me, the top two issues are radar and AI. Radar, in particular, has been bugging me for ages.

[Soundman]

I have to say, I'm very disappointed. You are trying to find excuses for a broken feature. :shifty: Like said, it is in the manual, so it should be in game too. Working one, that is.

So if, due to printer's screwup, SH4 manual came out with parts belonging to Rainbow 6 Vegas manual, you'd ask "where are the terrorists, slot machines and stun grenades in this game???" :rotfl:

elanaiba explained to you that the feature is not broken, it works as intended. Manual is WRONG. Game is not. :|\\


This is rediculous! I must agree with Dowly. The chrono is broken. This was definitely intended to work in the game, if it was not, why would the (non functioning) button be there to send the data to the TDC in the first place! There is even a tool tip while holding the mouse over it saying "send speed to TDC".....Explain that one!

As has been stated, This feature would simulate a member of the crew calcualting speed when the captain would give a bearing, distance and say "mark"... Lower the scope, wait a few minutes, raise the scope, repeat the procedure and then the speed was calculated.

When confronting a convoy, some of us don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or funtions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature, and along with map notations and a few other nonworking items, is an "advertised" feature of the game that does not work and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented. Also, the argument about misprints in the manual being an excuse, many of these items were listed on the Ubi website before the game was released! So, don't give me the "manual should follow the game, instead of the game following the manual" crap.

All that being said, while I still enjoy the game as is, the chrono is first on my list to be fixed although, the AI, crew and damage management are a close second.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

Dan,

Yes, I know the PK keeps an accurate picture of what you see in the scope as compared to what the PK shows.....I knew this months ago and attempted to spread the word that if all calculations are correctly set up, the scope image and the PK will match exactly over a period of time. If the image of the vessel through the scope is the same but the PK is off, then you have miscalculated and usually it the speed. Normally I see the AOB per the PK getting ahead which means I have speed set to fast. If the AOB on the PK is falling behind, the my speed is to slow. It is a constant update until in prime firing range:up:.

The chronometer is not a game killer by any means IMHO! Also, the very good Skippers did rough estimations of speed via eyeballing the vessel. It took practice but it worked! No issues with the PK or chronometer for me. I see what you are seeing concering simulation/hardcore/PK and the chronometer.

You know what I really use my watch for in the game????????? I use it to time how quickly I can submerge!!!! That is about it!

[AVGWarhawk]

When confronting a convoy, we don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or funtions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature and it is an "advertised" feature of the game and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented.
I do not understand this post here. Convoy tracking can take hours to set up properly. The nessary calculation are not that difficult. You have plenty of time to set it up. All the vessels are making the same kts, all are at the same AOB(relative) the only difference is range for each vessel. In all reality you are not going to sink the entire convoy in one afternoon. It takes days of end rounds. Expect to sink at least 2-4 vessels at best. Retreat and regroup. So you send of 2 torps, swing scope to next vessel in line, check range fire 2 torps and use the final 2 torps for the next vessel in the line after range check. All you are changing is the range. Go deep and wait!

As a feature, chronometer is broken. I tried it. Is it a game killer, no...IMHO.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by elanaiba
The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.
Definitely not the number one problem and if never fixed this would not bother me. Never used it in SH3 either. The vessels in SH3 were usually doing 7 kts all the time. Got predictable. I always dialed in 7 kts in SH3 and it always worked. Not only that, if COMSUB(SH4) says the convoy near you is doing 9kts and go to attack it.....darn it...the convoy is doing 9 kts just like they said. Who needs the chronometer;)

Yes, there are more fundamental bugs in the game such as radar that is an integral part of the US submarine.

[Payoff]

I agree with the OP. The stop watch works fine for me manually, which is all I care to do with it. The problem as I see it is the lack of ship lengths in the on board recognition manual without relying on a mod for this information.

[btaft]

Quote:
When confronting a convoy, we don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or funtions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature and it is an "advertised" feature of the game and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented.

I do not understand this post here. Convoy tracking can take hours to set up properly. The nessary calculation are not that difficult. You have plenty of time to set it up. All the vessels are making the same kts, all are at the same AOB(relative) the only difference is range for each vessel. In all reality you are not going to sink the entire convoy in one afternoon. It takes days of end rounds. Expect to sink at least 2-4 vessels at best. Retreat and regroup. So you send of 2 torps, swing scope to next vessel in line, check range fire 2 torps and use the final 2 torps for the next vessel in the line after range check. All you are changing is the range. Go deep and wait!

As a feature, chronometer is broken. I tried it. Is it a game killer, no...IMHO.

Not only that but for most Convoy intercepts (particularly in SH4) you are told the convoy's speed anyways via a message. Under these circumstances I don't even bother with the clock.....just take a few sightings to establish the course.

[AVGWarhawk]

I agree with the OP. The stop watch works fine for me manually, which is all I care to do with it. The problem as I see it is the lack of ship lengths in the on board recognition manual without relying on a mod for this information.

Part of the 1.3 fix per Dan if I'm not mistaken. Let see how that goes.

[AVGWarhawk]

Not only that but for most Convoy intercepts (particularly in SH4) you are told the convoy's speed anyways via a message. Under these circumstances I don't even bother with the clock.....just take a few sightings to establish the course.
:up: Winging it for the love of sinking vessels. Not only that, get close...reeeaaaalllyy close. Leaves room for some error that will not affect intended outcome:yep: If you do not see men walking the deck through your scope....you're not close enough!

[DJSatane]

I noticed they plan to finally fix the broken feature of chronometer speed estimation in 1.3. I am ready to celebrate.

[Soundman]

When confronting a convoy, we don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or functions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature and it is an "advertised" feature of the game and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented.
I do not understand this post here. Convoy tracking can take hours to set up properly. The nessary calculation are not that difficult. You have plenty of time to set it up. All the vessels are making the same kts, all are at the same AOB(relative) the only difference is range for each vessel. In all reality you are not going to sink the entire convoy in one afternoon. It takes days of end rounds. Expect to sink at least 2-4 vessels at best. Retreat and regroup. So you send of 2 torps, swing scope to next vessel in line, check range fire 2 torps and use the final 2 torps for the next vessel in the line after range check. All you are changing is the range. Go deep and wait!

As a feature, chronometer is broken. I tried it. Is it a game killer, no...IMHO.


Yes I understand the point you are making here, and I mostly agree with you but let me explain...What I'm refering to is after you hit a ship and the convoy begins to break up, they often change speed or even appear to stop completely. I say "appear" because I found out the hard way that from a distance they do seem to be stopped, but they may be slowing to only a knot or two, and if you are firing from a distance and set your speed to zero, you will miss. I'm not speaking of the "setting up" but how much of a scramble it can be when the convoy starts to break up. I suppose we may be splitting hairs here, but my point is, many of us would find the game more enjoyable with a chrono fix and I don't feel using a working chrono is a cheat, rather an enhancement. Sometimes I may wish to do the calculations myself, other times I just want to play captain and give bearing and range and let the crew calculate speed. Bottom line is....everyone has differing opinions on how the game should be played, however MANY of us DO feel short changed without the chrono fix and that is where this issue should lay.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes I understand the point you are making here, and I mostly agree with you but let me explain...What I'm refering to is after you hit a ship and the convoy begins to break up, they often change speed or even appear to stop completely.


That is the part that is kind of good IMHO. That is why I only choose a few to target, get off as many torps as possible at them so the all hit around the same time. Makes for a bit more of a challenge. Helps prevent the solution from being bad once the ships slow. Some should slow if the torp trail is detected. Actually the AI should be speeding up and zig zagging like mad and this too will ruin your solution. Pick a few and send as many torps to get the job done, regroup and return after the end round.

I say "appear" because I found out the hard way that from a distance they do seem to be stopped, but they may be slowing to only a knot or two, and if you are firing from a distance and set your speed to zero, you will miss.

Been there and done that brother! Discouraging for sure. I now just redial the speed to 1-2 kts and let the torps go! Sometimes you have to throw caution to the wind and let them swim at the best solution you can figure, especially if the convoy has one of the veteran DD. Again, the vessels should be going like mad. I read in another thread the slowing vessels is a bug(per Dan) and looks to be worked on in this patch. Either way, fast or slow vessels, your going to be guessing at this point as you do not have a lot of time to calculate their new speed.

I'm not speaking of the "setting up" but how much of a scramble it can be when the convoy starts to break up. I suppose we may be splitting hairs here, but my point is, many of us would find the game more enjoyable with a chrono fix and I don't feel using a working chrono is a cheat, rather an enhancement.

I never mentioned it was a cheat. I don't know how that got into the conversation and we will leave it at that. The chrono was used during the war and it is a help because, as you said, you are only one person. No hair splitting at all. What is needed is the weapons officer assist like SH3. In SH4 it is all or nothing. I loved weapons officer assist in SH3. Always used it as that what he was there for. Sure, the game might be more enjoyable if the chrono was fixed but after the first vessel is hit, the chrono is pretty much useless. Ships speed up and slow down, to accurately determine speed, you need time to observe the distance covered from point A to point B. The longer you can take the reading the better your calculation. Sometimes hard to do with DD looking for you. So sometimes you just have to give it your best guess.




Sometimes I may wish to do the calculations myself, other times I just want to play captain and give bearing and range and let the crew calculate speed. Bottom line is....everyone has differing opinions on how the game should be played, however MANY of us DO feel short changed without the chrono fix and that is where this issue should lay.



This last one here is were weapons officer assist should come into play. My feeling here is the chrono idea is going south and some assist type interface to calculate speed. Something will be done but I'm not sure at this point. Everyone plays a certain way, never said anyones way is the wrong way, just stated I did not need the chrono and not a game killer for me. Do I feel cheated? No because I can bring up the clock, observe my target, set the clock in motion and then make my second observation when ready. Also, the PK once set up should look the same as what you are seeing in the scope after a period of time. If not, your solution is incorrect and you need to adjust. If the PK showing the outline of the vessel remains constant to your visual, then you are good on solution. If you set up that PK and is dead on you can put the scope down and simply watch the PK. Once in good range fire the torps. So in essense, I really did not know that a broken watch was such an upsetting event concerning the game. Hope they fix it for you.

Anyway, there is some motion to correct something with speed calculation, we just have to sit and wait.

[Soundman]

AVGWarhark,

My apologies.

1) I never meant to imply that you said using the chrono was a cheat. Simply that in reading the forums, some people seem to feel that it is.

2) Thank you for your thorough response to my post. I do find it insightful and helpful.

3) I agree with you 100% that in a certain aspect, the way the convoys presently break up is actually interesting, and although most people may feel it is not realistic in its current state and wish for all ships to speed away and zigzag, I think something in between might be more interesting. In other words, complete randomness. After all, someone in that situation may panic and freeze, who knows?

4) Yes, I also agree with you that the chronograph is going south. The post seems to imply a different kind of implementation for calculating speed, rather than fixing the chronograph. That is perfectly fine with me, as long as there is a reasonable substitute.

5) Thanks for the PK tip, I will keep that in mind, and again, thanks for the thorough reply.

[AVGWarhawk]

1) I never meant to imply that you said using the chrono was a cheat. Simply that in reading the forums, some people seem to feel that it is.


To simply call it a cheat is incorrect in two senses. The watch was used by the real men who were there and calculating speed. Also, as we stated, we are but one person and to handle it all(calculations, navigations, sonar) assistance is nice. This is why I like the weapons officer assist. The sonar man is limited and does not say, hey chief DD on a run to drop DC. We simply can not scream out AOB, speed, range and hope someone does this on the TDC while we steer the sub, etc. You could scream it out but people would look at you funny;)

2) Thank you for your thorough response to my post. I do find it insightful and helpful.


Sometimes my wife lets me think and be insightful. Not to often....

3) I agree with you 100% that in a certain aspect, the way the convoys presently break up is actually interesting, and although most people may feel it is not realistic in its current state and wish for all ships to speed away and zigzag, I think something in between might be more interesting. In other words, complete randomness. After all, someone in that situation may panic and freeze, who knows?


Randomness is key here. They do need implement the full ahead and zig zag as part of the randomness. I like the mix of good DD and dumb DD. You do not know what you are going to get. Believe me, the good DD know what you are going to get:oops:


4) Yes, I also agree with you that the chronograph is going south. The post seems to imply a different kind of implementation for calculating speed, rather than fixing the chronograph. That is perfectly fine with me, as long as there is a reasonable substitute.

Looks like something coming.

5) Thanks for the PK tip, I will keep that in mind, and again, thanks for the thorough reply.

That PK is a very useful tool. As you, my speed calculations (guess) just suck. If that top outline of the target changes ahead or behind my set AOB, my speed is off. Make a 1-2 kt adjustment slower or faster depending on how drastically the outlined target has changed. Observe in a few minute again. If all looks to be the same, you are dead on. Drop the scope, watch your range close and send the torps when comfortable with it. Very cool when you time it with the chrono and hear the hits.

[greyrider]

elanaiba

you know the bugs and you will fix them i have no doubt.

but i would just like to say thanks for two great sub sims.

the trim and ballast systems work the nuts in sh4, and the very hard level is just that, VERY HARD!

i love it!

i have been kamakazied twice now, sub destroyed, but i love it!

you guys have done so good! just a few more fixes, and sh4 will be great!

i never use the watch, nor do i use the tbt at all, and im able to sink between 60 to 80k in an s-boat.

people around here should realize that not everything works in combat,

your rifle jammes in sand, wont shoot, what are you gonna do?

adapt and adjust