Questions for you Falklands Experts out there

[TLAM Strike]

WWII era ships aren't my area of expertise, so do you know or can you point me in the directions to a site with information and pics on how the Argentine's Allen M. Sumner and Gearing class destroyers were configured? I have the nice drawings from navsource on the former USS Hank, USS Collett, and USS Borie showing their FRAM upgrades, but is there any other info out there.

Also information and pics on the ARA Belgrano would be helpful.

I hope to make models of them for DW at some point.

Thanks.

[Chock]

There are some decent links on this wiki site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

Of course, you have to be careful of wikipedia, since it does get innaccuracies from time to time, but some of the links on that page are worth following. I imagine it would be worth seeing what you could find on the USS Phoenix too, as the hull would basically be largely unchanged. Also it would probably be worth trying searches on H.M.S. Conqueror, as they might lead you to stuff about the Belgrano.

:D Chock

PS. Two interesting things that are little known about the Falklands War, which might make any scenarios you are thinking of creating a bit more interesting are: the carriers in the task force had nuclear depth charges on board, not because they had plans to use them, but because to remove them would have delayed the task force's departure. Also, an interesting plan which was briefly considered, was to launch a Nuclear missile (minus the warhead) at Buenos Aires, to be followed by an ultimatum basically saying 'the next one will have a warhead on it'.

[Jimbuna]

PS. Two interesting things that are little known about the Falklands War, which might make any scenarios you are thinking of creating a bit more interesting are: the carriers in the task force had nuclear depth charges on board, not because they had plans to use them, but because to remove them would have delayed the task force's departure. Also, an interesting plan which was briefly considered, was to launch a Nuclear missile (minus the warhead) at Buenos Aires, to be followed by an ultimatum basically saying 'the next one will have a warhead on it'.

Was fully aware of the former :yep: but not the latter :nope: :hmm:

[Marcantilan]

A missile against Buenos Aires?? The only "nuclear" plan revealed was one involving a Vulcan bomber and Cordoba (a city near the center of Argentina)

Argentine navy today:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armada_Argentina

Argentine old destroyers (click on Bouchard, Almte. Storni, Py, Piedrabuena...)
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/Buques1900a1970/DDestructores.htm

ARA Gral. Belgrano
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/InfHistorica/AntiguaFlotadeMar/EspTec21CrGralBelgrano.htm

(histarmar is very complete, but very slow to load. I think the server is a Commodore 64)

If you want further help, let me know...

[Chock]

The story of the firing a missile with the nuclear warhead removed suggestion is briefly mentioned in the book, 'Sea Harrier over the Falklands' by Sharkey Ward if you want more info.

Good book, if perhaps a little biased in favour of the Fleet Air Arm. Has some good passages about fleet defence tactics and the dogfights with the Argentinean pilots, who were very courageous incidentally. As well as giving some insights into the reasons for the sinking of the Belgrano, although given the cover ups which took place following the sinking, it might not all be true!

:D Chock

[Sea Demon]

I have the nice drawings from navsource on the former USS Hank, USS Collett, and USS Borie showing their FRAM upgrades, but is there any other info out there.

Also information and pics on the ARA Belgrano would be helpful.

I hope to make models of them for DW at some point.

Thanks.

:up: :up: :up: :up:

[bradclark1]

A missile against Buenos Aires?? The only "nuclear" plan revealed was one involving a Vulcan bomber and Cordoba (a city near the center of Argentina)

There were probably a lot of options put on the table. It's the one that's used that counts.

[Heibges]

I was watching the History Channel (big surprise), and they had an interview with an officer from the British sub who torpedoed the Belgrano.

He said that they used a WWII type torpedo because it had a larger warhead than the newer guided torpedoes, and didn't think the smaller warhead would do the job. Apparently, WWII surface warships were more heavily armored and more compartmented than modern ships.

[baggygreen]

i've heard that somewhere too heibges, well at least the bit about the armour being thicker. I doubt the torps themselves were ww2 vintage, but were probably referred to as ww2 fish because they lacked guidance.

[capt_slaughter]

WWII era ships aren't my area of expertise, so do you know or can you point me in the directions to a site with information and pics on how the Argentine's Allen M. Sumner and Gearing class destroyers were configured? I have the nice drawings from navsource on the former USS Hank, USS Collett, and USS Borie showing their FRAM upgrades, but is there any other info out there.

Also information and pics on the ARA Belgrano would be helpful.

I hope to make models of them for DW at some point.

Thanks.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg/300px-USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg) GENERAL BELGRANO...formaly uss phoenix
the only ship to escape pearl harbour undamaged from the japanese attack,sank by great britain in 1982 in the falklands islands...HOW IRONIC....CHEERS

[Jimbuna]

I was watching the History Channel (big surprise), and they had an interview with an officer from the British sub who torpedoed the Belgrano.

He said that they used a WWII type torpedo because it had a larger warhead than the newer guided torpedoes, and didn't think the smaller warhead would do the job. Apparently, WWII surface warships were more heavily armored and more compartmented than modern ships.

WWII Mk8 mod 4 torpedos :up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Belgrano#The_ship_was_outside_the_200_mile _.28320_km.29_exclusion_zone

[micky1up]

i've heard that somewhere too heibges, well at least the bit about the armour being thicker. I doubt the torps themselves were ww2 vintage, but were probably referred to as ww2 fish because they lacked guidance.


they where mark eight straight running torpedoes used because the belgrano had what most ww2 cruisers and battleships had a reinforced steel belt around the hull at the depth bracket that a torpedo would strike the uks mk24 torp although wireguided lacked the explosive punch of the mk8 a wise decission by the captain to use those mk8's insted of the mk24's

[Jimbuna]

A colleague of mine has a brother who served on the Conqueror during the conflict and he reliably informs me that the eels were not set for 'straight running' but actually given a slightly offset setting in order that they travel in a curved pattern lest they be sighted and reveal the approximate locality of the sub :up:

[Heibges]

Does anyone know why ships today aren't so well armored?

[Chock]

Presumably because they aren't expected to slog it out with 14 inch guns while they are 10,000 yards from one another.

:D Chock

[Jimbuna]

Does anyone know why ships today aren't so well armored?

Speed (cost of fuel for high powered engines and steel)
Building time.

[Sailor Steve]

Original question: I served on the Gearing class DD USS Brinkley Bass (DD-887) in 1970. She was in FRAM-1 condition at that time. In 1973 she was transferred to the Argentine Navy as CT Mariz e Barros (D-26). She was decommissioned in 1997 and sunk as a target on December 19, 2000.

From the photos here http://www.ussbrinkleybassdd887.com/bassphotogallery.htm it looks like not much was changed in Arentinian service.

Armor question: All battleships had armor to resist heavy shells. Most cruisers had armor thick enough to let them fight other cruisers. Some carriers had some armor, but destroyers never used armor; it wasn't worth it, and they weren't meant to stand up to heavier ships.

[Marcantilan]

USS Brinkley Bass was transfered to Brazil, not Argentina.

http://www.naviosdeguerrabrasileiros.hpg.ig.com.br/M/M043/M043.htm

Anyway, Gearing class DD´s were used by the ARA.

[XabbaRus]

Also I read there was concern that the Mk24s wouldn't work due to reliability problems in testing.

[Sailor Steve]

USS Brinkley Bass was transfered to Brazil, not Argentina.

http://www.naviosdeguerrabrasileiros.hpg.ig.com.br/M/M043/M043.htm

Anyway, Gearing class DD´s were used by the ARA.
:damn: :rotfl: :damn: :rotfl: :damn:

Curse my aging memory!:rotfl: :damn: OW! Sorry 'bout that.

Of course I could do that Ugly American thing and say "Brazil, Argentina...there's a difference?"

[TLAM Strike]

USS Brinkley Bass was transfered to Brazil, not Argentina.

http://www.naviosdeguerrabrasileiros.hpg.ig.com.br/M/M043/M043.htm

Anyway, Gearing class DD´s were used by the ARA.

Yes there was a Gearing in the ARA:
ARA Comodoro Py, a Gearing class destroyer, formerly USS Perkins (DD-877)

Don't worry Sailor Steve your not senile yet... :up:

Ok I'm going through those links now, if you know of any other good sites post 'em. Thanks a bunch.