End of the Royal Navy??

[DanCanovas]

this is ridiculous!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007220067,00.html

go on Steed, work your magic mate! :up:

[Oberon]

If it's true, it doesn't surprise me, the RN's been going downhill for years, ever since the late 80s in fact. The government has looked for a quick money fix as opposed to preparing for possible future conflicts and the navy has suffered as a result. Which considering we're an island nation, does seem rather silly....but there you go, I guess that's why I'm a waiter and not a politician.

[DanCanovas]

i think its remarkable at a time of increasing interference in regional affairs. the government seeks to increase its involvement and influence and yet wishes to operate a crippled and inefficient armed forces.

[fatty]

High turnover will be a recipe for an accident. After the mixup with Iran it's amazing nobody upstairs has thought that maybe the Navy is actually worth investing in. Yet the government is happy to spend the billions that would fix these problems on new ballistic subs which will serve little to no strategic purpose by the time they're ready.

[DanCanovas]

High turnover will be a recipe for an accident. After the mixup with Iran it's amazing nobody upstairs has thought that maybe the Navy is actually worth investing in. Yet the government is happy to spend the billions that would fix these problems on new ballistic subs which will serve little to no strategic purpose by the time they're ready.

well in Britain we have 4 Vanguard class SSBNs and im not aware of anymore coming through but i'd love to know where all the money that they're saving is actually going. The NHS is a mess, the police are not recruiting, the prisons are throwing people out, the rubbish looks like it might be collected every 2 weeks now, the roads in my area are a mess. Im just trying to work out where its all going as taxes are on the rise!

[Oberon]

Indeed, you've only got to look at how badly delayed and over budget the Astute got, although that was primarily down to poor management by BAe than lack of funding. I think the current downward trend in funding of the Royal Navy definately started at the end of the Cold War, primarily (in my eyes anyway) with the cancellation of the Upholder program and subsequent sale of the four subs that were built, to Canada. Now while this is terribly nice to the Canucks and I have no doubt they'll put them to good use (once they've fixed them after BAe screwed them up), it does put us in with the US in having an all nuke sub fleet...and I'm yet to be convinced that's such a good thing...particularly in the case of close water patrols, now I know that the Skipjacks and LAs have been doing close water survellience off Murmansk for years without many problems, but an AIP sub would probably be better for missions where you really can't make a sound. In that respect, the Germans have us nailed with the Type 214 which is probably quieter than a Kilo, with better endurance (when it works).
Still, Germany always has known how to build its subs.

So meanwhile, as we're selling our navy off to the highest bidders, the government is not willing to put the money back in to replace it, so our fleet size gets smaller and smaller and smaller, more and more people are drawn into the Army and Air force by their flashy adverts (and the fact that they're probably a little bit more funded by the gov than the Navy) and once again the Navy loses out. So here we are, in 2007, with a handful of ships, no carrier air cover, an SSBN fleet which is coming to the end of its lifespan, and a grand total of three new units being rolled out any time soon.

If any major power invades the Channel, I sure hope the French or Germans will bail us out.... :damn:

[The Avon Lady]

the rubbish looks like it might be collected every 2 weeks now,
Someone go down to the pub and wake up Kaptain! :p

[DanCanovas]

the rubbish looks like it might be collected every 2 weeks now,
Someone go down to the pub and wake up Kaptain! :p

:rotfl: i forgot about that, ill have words with him! :x

[bradclark1]

Wow! Talking about flopping it out and stomping on it. This can't be serious.

[fatty]

well in Britain we have 4 Vanguard class SSBNs and im not aware of anymore coming through...

Back in March. (http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/news/article_1277424.php/British_parliament_votes_to_modernize_nukes__Round up_)

I'm yet to be convinced that's such a good thing...particularly in the case of close water patrols, now I know that the Skipjacks and LAs have been doing close water survellience off Murmansk for years without many problems, but an AIP sub would probably be better for missions where you really can't make a sound. In that respect, the Germans have us nailed with the Type 214 which is probably quieter than a Kilo, with better endurance (when it works).

Yes, you are absolutely right. For a nation that relies much on trade (UK combined imports/exports in 2006 value at 46% of the total UK GDP for that year) close monitoring of sea lanes should be a given. AIP subs are great at that.

[DanCanovas]

I'm yet to be convinced that's such a good thing...particularly in the case of close water patrols, now I know that the Skipjacks and LAs have been doing close water survellience off Murmansk for years without many problems, but an AIP sub would probably be better for missions where you really can't make a sound. In that respect, the Germans have us nailed with the Type 214 which is probably quieter than a Kilo, with better endurance (when it works).


Yes, you are absolutely right. For a nation that relies much on trade (UK combined imports/exports in 2006 value at 46% of the total UK GDP for that year) close monitoring of sea lanes should be a given. AIP subs are great at that.[/quote]

I agree but we are having recruitment problems as it is so i don't think they would go for diesels with AIP.

[fatty]

Someday :cry:

[DanCanovas]

when I applied to join the submarine service (RN) i was offered about £6,000 if I had a successful application. Apparently because i'm allergic to peanuts my application will be rejected. :cry:

[Chock]

As much as it depresses me - being from the UK - I think that the UK needs to stop pretending it is a superpower. It hasn't been one for many, many years, and certainly hasn't got the kind of income that would enable it to adequately fund a Navy of that nature.

With that in mind, the UK does need to consolodate its forces into something more suited to the kind of missions it is likely to be involved in. Virtually all of the UK's military equipment has a legacy of designs that were intended to combat a supposed head to head with the Warsaw Pact, and the troops have suffered as a result in many recent theatres of engagement: Helicopters unsuited to desert operations, ships with no suitable air cover, and a fleet of submarines with a missile system dependent on US equipment to enable it to be fully employed, are just some of the things the MOD has had to contend with.

But this latest problem and 'solution' is clearly a very bad idea and will certainly not improve matters.

[DanCanovas]

the navy we have now is hardly that of a superpower and we're not even prepared to maintain that!

[Oberon]

Chock's knocked it on the head, we need to stop pretending that we're the old "Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves!"....we don't even rule the English Channel any more! Or any of the seas around us come to think of it! We need to pull ourselves out of global affairs, rebuild and repair our forces, rebuild and repair our country...and then re-emerge a stronger and better nation for it. At the moment we're so wrapped up in foreign affairs, acting like we're the old Great British nation, that at home, things have fallen apart completely.

[DanCanovas]

Chock's knocked it on the head, we need to stop pretending that we're the old "Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves!"....we don't even rule the English Channel any more! Or any of the seas around us come to think of it! We need to pull ourselves out of global affairs, rebuild and repair our forces, rebuild and repair our country...and then re-emerge a stronger and better nation for it. At the moment we're so wrapped up in foreign affairs, acting like we're the old Great British nation, that at home, things have fallen apart completely.

I think poor domestic and defence policy contributes.

[Oberon]

True, very true...but trying to overstretch ourselves with our forces, especially whilst cutting down on them at the same time is a receipe for disaster and effects both the morale of the forces, and the morale at home. Admittedly this is not helped by the gutter press who'll take any opportunity to find dirt to dish, regardless of who they dish it on, so long as it sells papers....although to be fair, in some cases, such as this, they help to bring the publics attention to what a poor state of affairs we are in. The government has always been about quick fixes, particularly recently with Blairs departure...all the **** that hits the fan will be dealt with by Gordon and Blair knows this.

Still...we are heading in the right direction with the Type 45s and the Astute projects...but it's just knowing that half the current order will probably be scrapped before the third sub is even built, likewise the T45s....then more money will be thrown into the black hole of the NHS, instead of putting in a solid framework to insure the money that is put in doesn't go straight into a luxary yacht for a fat cat. Likewise the railways and roads....and don't even get me started on the 2012 olympics :damn:

[DanCanovas]

True, very true...but trying to overstretch ourselves with our forces, especially whilst cutting down on them at the same time is a receipe for disaster and effects both the morale of the forces, and the morale at home. Admittedly this is not helped by the gutter press who'll take any opportunity to find dirt to dish, regardless of who they dish it on, so long as it sells papers....although to be fair, in some cases, such as this, they help to bring the publics attention to what a poor state of affairs we are in. The government has always been about quick fixes, particularly recently with Blairs departure...all the **** that hits the fan will be dealt with by Gordon and Blair knows this.

Still...we are heading in the right direction with the Type 45s and the Astute projects...but it's just knowing that half the current order will probably be scrapped before the third sub is even built, likewise the T45s....then more money will be thrown into the black hole of the NHS, instead of putting in a solid framework to insure the money that is put in doesn't go straight into a luxary yacht for a fat cat. Likewise the railways and roads....and don't even get me started on the 2012 olympics :damn:

:rotfl:

[Oberon]

I know, I know...I think I'm turning into STEED :doh: :know:

[Tchocky]

I know, I know...I think I'm turning into STEED :doh: :know:
That's ok, but will you leave Orwell out of it? :p

[Oberon]

I know, I know...I think I'm turning into STEED :doh: :know:
That's ok, but will you leave Orwell out of it? :p

Awww, but I liked his Mercury theatre adaptation of 'The War of the Worlds'. :cry:

[Tchocky]

:lol:

[kurtz]

when I applied to join the submarine service (RN) i was offered about £6,000 if I had a successful application. Apparently because i'm allergic to peanuts my application will be rejected. :cry:

pour Qoi? Are subs likely to be attacked with peanuts?:o

[Tchocky]

Makes sense to me. When you're feeding 100+ men three tiomes a day (more often with separate watches, innit?), you can't be that careful. peanut allergies are very severe things, and nuts are used in a lot of dishes.

Taking someone with a very severe allergy on board......don't make sense.

unless of course his peanut allergy is extrememly mild and I'm completely wrong :)

[Heibges]

They probably figure it's cheaper for the US Navy to protect trade routes etc.

Sort of like how the US depended on the Royal Navy to enforce the Monroe Doctrine back in the day.

[Chock]

Now the Soviets will realise the foolishness of all the money they wasted on developing the supercavitating Shkval torpedo with the peanut warhead - muhahahaha!

[fatty]

"I have with me incontrovertible proof that Iraq possesses several Peanuts of Mass Destruction and intends to grow more."

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Sure, the underfunding's critical, but this is not so bad. The Americans have developed a nice tradition of "hot-shipping" for decades with their ballistic missile subs.

Still, In a few years, the Brits will say "If we had a choice to command the Russian Navy or ours, we'd command the Russian Navy. At least they are trying to keep it running..."

[The Avon Lady]

Now the Soviets will realise the foolishness of all the money they wasted on developing the supercavitating Shkval torpedo with the peanut warhead - muhahahaha!
The US is way ahead of them with the SSN Jimmy Carter.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9441/peanutsubfh5.jpg

No comments from the peanut gallery. :roll:

[Camaero]

All any country really needs these days are a few subs with nukes and maybe an aircraft carrier or two if they want to mix it up elsewhere.

[DanCanovas]

"I have with me incontrovertible proof that Iraq possesses several Peanuts of Mass Destruction and intends to grow more."

:rotfl:

[Oberon]

All any country really needs these days are a few subs with nukes and maybe an aircraft carrier or two if they want to mix it up elsewhere.

Really a TLAM equipped SSN and a CVBG is good for projecting power to foreign coastlines, the UK's got that kinda right, we have the TLAMs on the Traffies but our CVNs are still a bit bjorked without air cover, even if we do have A/G ability on them it does leave them rather vulnerable.

As it stands at the moment, a large fleet isn't really needed, a mobile rapid strike force is what's needed, and that's something CVBGs and SSNs with TLAMs are good at...that's one of the reasons there's been such a furore over the Vanguards in the UK, a lot of people (primarily in the Green house and CND groups, naturally) have stated that we don't need SSBNs...and at the moment, yeah, we don't really...Russia is our friend, Chinas nuclear missile boat never leaves dock, Iran would have difficulties firing a ICBM from a Kilo (though I'd pay good money to see them try) and India and Pakistan would probably nuke each other before sending anything our way. Since we are no longer under any major obligation to protect loads of overseas colonies, and no longer needed to plug the GIUK gap against a fleet of Russian SS and SSNs pouring through to hit the merchant lines, we've cut back on naval forces to put money into the RAF and Army...this is a short-sighted view however and should any major naval power in Europe or Eastern Europe, turn hostile...then we'll be in the brown stuff pretty rapidly. After all, a navy protected us for well over 200 years, and while its importance has waned some what since the evolution of the air arm, it's still a vital part of any small island nation, and Britain (despite what it likes to think) IS a small island nation, and we need a decent navy to compliment our air force, and we need to stop overstretching ourselves. Soon.

Anything else is just peanuts. :lol: