TV Tip for our British friends: Scientology and Me

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6650545.stm

I am not surprised that these scientology bastards see psychiatrists as their archenemies - psychologically trained professionals by their profession and knowledge are better suited than anybody else to understand the mechanism of power by which Scientology brainwashes people and makes them their obedient subjects. No tyrant wants the crowd to know how his power power works. scientology's tool of power is psychological pressure, and even terror.

Scientology is one the top enemies of mankind and one of the greatest evils unfolding in our modern present societies. It must be battled and destroyed at all costs before it gets too much power and influence. It already is on the march and has gained more ground than any reasonable mind could find acceptable. Confront it, resist it, unmask it, hurt it by all means that are available to you. Learn about it, and talk to others about it, inform your children, immunize them. Fight scientology without mercy, for Scientology does not know any mercy for you. Zero tolerance for scientologists.

Be advised that since some time they try to creep and sink into social systems by offering private school support for children that need additional lessons and are weak in schools, and that they also increasingly hide behind the mask of private instiotutions that offer counceling and psychological therapy, as well as additonal support for post-hospital caretaking. These efforts are not only aiming at trying to gain inlfuence over the minds of the subjects they are dealing with, in the main it is about raising a tradition of assumed respectability that is not different to the services of other institutions and thus should get the same support from the state and the community like others, anchoring it in our middle that way, and giving it legal options and rights that way to press their agendas.

Don't just move away when you discover your kid is in a school class with a scientotlogist as teacher. Make it known, brandmark him, tell the puiblic what he is, and how dangerous he is. Make sure he gets destroyed before he can show his seed into the minds of other children. Find support in the internet, find organizations and experts that have made it their profession to challenge Scientology. Read books about it, give them to other people.

This simply is "evil" itself. So send it to hell. don't just turn your back on it and walk away. If all will do like this and just chose the easy path, we all will get stabbed from behind sooner or later. This is no religion. This is about total control, earthly power, accumulating wealth and more power, crush opponents by all fair and unfair means available. It is another ugly face of totalitarianism, cleverly hiding behind a mask. It is cold, without mercy, compassion, love for man.

Kill it.

[Letum]

This is like something out of a sci-fi. novel!

Have these people not a scrap of rationality?

[Skybird]

They have, unfortunately, a lot of ice-cold and uncompassionate rationality if it serves their ambitions. But it all is cool calculation. Humanism, freedom, man-friendly values and ethics don't play a role in it.

[Takeda Shingen]

Administrative comment follows:

I am going to let this thread pass thus far. However, I want to state that I am not entirely comfortable with the militant reaction here to scientology, just as I would not be to similar reactions to Mormons, Jews, Hindus or any other faith. That being said, it has been, in my estimation, the unfortunate practice of allowing such speech against Islam and, accordingly, this discussion will continue with the clause that I am able to end it if it becomes too hostile or heated, as this seems to have become protocol on GT.

This message serves as notice to the community at large, and is not intended to sidetrack the discussion. Please feel free to PM me to discuss the matter further, so that the topic may continue unabated.

Tak

[Skybird]

Scientology - something like "any other faith"...? I know some experts, teachers, university personell, parent organizations, social workers and church workers, and could refer to some crime investigators and intelligence community members (BKA, BVS) that would strongly protest against that characterization, and I would like to point out that Scientology is under observation by police and/or intelligence organisations in several European countries.

Just wanted to say that. However, I got your point, Tak.


I have no more to say on it anyway. Just please don't give the impression that scientology is a "faith" that needs to be given freedoms and tolerance like any other one. I mean you wouldn'T say that about the Mafia, or a Nazi organisation, or any of the many pseudo-religious sects we had in the past and whose members became militant, or commited collective suicide, wouldn't you?

[waste gate]

Some rather disturbing rhetoric here.
Scientology is one the top enemies of mankind and one of the greatest evils unfolding in our modern present societies.


It already is on the march and has gained more ground than any reasonable mind could find acceptable.


Fight scientology without mercy, for Scientology does not know any mercy for you.


Make it known, brandmark him, tell the puiblic what he is, and how dangerous he is.



This simply is "evil" itself.


I thought I was in a time warp and was reading something that Joseph Goebbels had written.

This thread should be closed swiftly.

[Letum]

^ Quell Surprise!

[Skybird]

The world's most dangerous cult.

Bei der "Scientology-Organisation" (SO) bestehen tatsächliche Anhaltspunkte für Bestrebungen gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung. Damit sind die gesetzlichen Voraussetzungen für eine Beobachtung der Organisation durch die Verfassungschutzbehörden gegeben. Eine entsprechende Feststellung traf die Ständige Konferenz der Innenminister und -senatoren der Länder (IMK) erstmals im Juni 1997.

http://www.im.nrw.de/sch/doks/vs/agsc.pdf

A more recent evaluation (2005) by a non-public gremium of the BVS ranks the threat level of scientology and it's hostility to basic values of the constitution as "extremely high".


"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"

http://www.xenu.net/

Censoring criticism of scientology via american laws like the DMCA:

http://www.golem.de/0203/18971.html

Several court rulings have decided to not accept scientology fulfilling the definition of religious communities as understood by according german laws. For example: http://www.google.de/search?q=scientology&hl=de&lr=lang_en&as_qdr=all&start=10&sa=N

Quite the opposite: it was stressed time and again that the status of a "religious community" is exclusively being demanded by scientology to gain tax advantages and legal rights that help it to press it's hidden agendas.


Feb 8, 2000BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_635000/635793.stm): France recommends dissolving Scientologists: A government committee in France has recommended dissolving the Church of Scientology there, on the grounds that its activities threaten public order. A report submitted to the prime minister, Lionel Jospin, described the church as a totalitarian sect that kept files containing personal information on its members. It said it was an extremely dangerous organisation that violated human dignity.
Dec 10, 1999Church 'fails test' for charity status (http://www.times-archive.co.uk/news/pages/tim/1999/12/10/timnwsnws01027.html?999) : Britain: The Church of Scientology was yesterday barred from charitable status after the Charity Commission ruled that it failed to promote the "moral and spiritual welfare" of the community.
Jan 22, 1997Scientology Banned in Greece (http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/970122a.htm): In Greece, an Athens Administrative Court passed a judgment which affects Scientology materially. It states that the psycho-sect is to be banned. The judge stated that the financial machinations of the commercial sect were not compatible with the public welfare.
Sep 18, 1994The Giant Scientology Octopus (http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/survey/op.htm#940918a): German Federal Labor Minister Norbert Bluem (CDU) urged a "substantially rigorous, faster opposition" to the "Scientology" sect, which is active in Germany. He regards the sect as a "criminal money-laundering organization which is intent on expanding its delusional ideology worldwide under the pretext of religion and will stop at nothing." "It is high time that the big wheels of this human-despising cartel of suppression finally receive our message loud and clear: they are criminal!" "Potential members are put into psychologically and physically dependent relationships. They are subjected to brainwashing; their personalities are systematically destroyed. Then they are materially exploited without end. Even though we know all this, far too little has really been able to be done in effectively opposing this organization."


http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/dianetics.html


The Harm it Does to a Person

The results of applying their crackpot psychotherapy (called "auditing") is to weaken the mind. The mind goes from a rational state to an irrational one as the delusional contents of the subconscious mind are brought to the surface and are assumed to be valid. It also makes a person more susceptible to suggestion since it submerges the critical thinking faculties of the mind into a partial subconscious state. It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance and so from thenceforth that person can be more easily controlled. The person will, to a much greater extent, believe and do whatever they are told. And of course this is used to the full in persuading them to hand over further money and dedicating themselves further to the cult. The results of applying their oversimplified and inapplicable rules in life is to lose the ability to think rationally and logically. A person loses the ability to think for themselves and so they lose the ability to challenge incorrect ideas. This makes them easier to control. It also isolates and alienates the person from society so that they withdraw from normal society and into their "Scientology" society. This further increases their susceptibility to the influence of their group. They end up being afraid of society, believing all society to be controlled by a group of drug companies, psychiatrists and financiers all of whom report to more remote masters. In other words they are in a state of mass paranoia. They therefore avoid reading newspapers and the like since they fear it will disturb their safe Scientology world. It is a downward spiral into madness. (...)

On the surface the Church of Scientology seems reasonable. The insane content of it is only revealed to a person when the early stuff has done its work and made them more susceptible. After a short while a person "believes" that Scientology is doing them good. They are then persuaded to help their new-found group further by donating money and/or working for the organization for almost no money. Many people do exactly that. "Ethics" is used to good effect to trap a person. A person’s natural tendency to do good is worked upon. Yes - they want to be more ethical, but what is ethical? This is where a clever trick is pulled! "Ethics" is redefined by Scientology in such a way that to be ethical is to be a better Scientologist and obey the "church". Young people, not yet made cynical through the machinations of life and politics, are very keen to contribute to the world and to be ethical. So the "ethics" trick works easily into persuading them to join the "church". Many of them join an elite group called the "Sea Org" (http://www.xenu.net/archive/so/index.html) where they become brainwashed slaves. There they work a hundred hour week for almost no pay. There they are subject to every cruel whim of their masters. It is a living hell that they endure because of the conditioning they have received and this now perverted sense of ethics that they have accepted. The "Sea Org" is the ultimate in brainwashed slavery. They are expected to work harder and harder to achieve ever higher targets of production. If they fail to meet their targets there are various penalties. One of them is to be put onto a diet of beans and rice and to miss sleep. Another is to be sentenced to a period on the RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force). This is the equivalent to "hard labour". Such is the extent of their brainwashing that they actually write "success stories" when they complete their sentences. (...)

The "War on the Internet" is the war between the Church of Scientology and Internet users who copy their documents and post them on the Internet. The people who are copying their material and webbing it are using the huge accessibility of the world-wide web to get information out to people to warn them of the insanity and danger of this cult. They are doing it for the public good. The hope is that if they can get this information out to the public and make it broadly known then people will be forewarned and will not join the cult. If they can starve the cult of new members in this way then the whole organization may collapse and then the existing members can be helped to return to society. (...)


http://www.exposingsatanism.org/scientology.htm

And so on and on and on. just took five minutes to find these links. Google is your friend! ;)

The people who post and host the copyrighted and confidential works of Scientology are risking themselves to help warn the public about the dangers of Scientology. They have a strong sense of public duty and care for their fellow men. They are breaking copyright laws it is true but they are acting out of conscience and out of high human ideals. As they get broken down by legal or physical harassment more rise to take their place.

I know two such persons myself, for whom fighting Scientology has become a full time job in their lifes since the mid-90s, when scientology started an offensive to expand it's initial beachheads in Germany. The risk they accept are incredibly high, the legal battles and campaigns of intimidation and diffamation rage since many years. I and two friends even needed to bodyguard them for some weeks in 1998 when Scientology activities to get rid of them raised valid concerns for their health and life's safety.

So, Tak, you must not excuse but maybe can understand my unforgiving brandmarking language. For me we are talking about a highly criminal tyrannic organisation.

the new headquarter of scientology - has been erected almost inside the German government district in Berlin. Better don'T think that is by random chance.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458616,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,473896,00.html

[Chock]

Out of curiousity, I've read up quite a bit about Scientology, and I've come to the conclusion that it is very questionable to say the least. I even went to one of their exhibitions they held in Manchester a few years back, which was kind of hard to take seriously with some of the 'cod-psychology' and 'pseudo-science' that appeared to be central to it.

So I'm not a fan, but I don't think 'these scientology bastards ' is a very balanced way to start a thread about them Skybird, even if I personally tend to agree with you, although perhaps not in such black and white terms.

It's actually quite hard to find a lot of defamatory info about Scientology, as websites dedicated to that sort of thing tend to get targeted and hacked very quickly, which is another reason to be suspicious of it.

What you have to remember is that L Ron Hubbard (its founder) was not a very well man. As many of you know he was the commander of a converted ASW trawler (USS PC-815) in WW2 and made some questionable decisions, including a somewhat dubious claim for a battle with a Japanese submarine, which almost reminds one of something out of The Caine Mutiny. But like that movie, which initially portrays Queeg as a hate figure, we come to understand that he was actually nonetheless, brave and hohourable, and like the movie and book, I always react to the ridicule of Hubbard in a similar fashion. In that people with a mental illness are not really a very fair target for ridicule. At least he did enter service during wartime and try to serve his country, which is more than I've ever done.

When one inspects Hubbard's claims about his life, it's clear that he is something of a Walter Mitty character, with a vivid imagination; he embellishes events in his life to make himself seem more likeable, which should get alarm bells ringing as far as psychological stability is concerned, but is not something which really does anyone any harm. Having undergone some medical teatment for this, it's clear that his dislike of the assessment of him manifests itself in both his writings and in the form and theories of Scientology. Much of it being based on convoluted adaptations of post-war psychological theories. This is the era of Dr Spock's writings on child care and the like, and much of this reflects attitudes from less enlightened times, so you have to view things in context to make a fair assessment of these.

Hubbard's most famous work, Battlefield Earth (subsequently made into an abridged movie) is often regarded as a thinly-disguised advert for Scientology, but this is most often put forward by those who do not have any love for Scientology. As I stated, I'm not a fan of the 'religion', but I would never confuse the two. Whilst it isn't Shakespeare, Battlefield Earth is actually a good page-turner, and it's apparent that many later sci-fi stories liberally lift ideas from it. If you've not read it try, I'm betting you'll like it.

Many other sci-fi writers that started out as pulp 'amazing-fiction'-style writers have undergone similar accusations of political or religious understories appearing in their work, most notably, Robert A Heinlein, whose Starship Troopers, also underwent similar scrutiny and also got made into an abridged movie. Again, if you've never read it, give it a try, I bet you'll like that too!

In any case, as ludicrous as Scientology's core ideas are, when viewed in the context of Hubbard's issues and seen as a personal exorcism of them, they are not quite so threatening. The problem lies with his later extrapolation of the thing turning into his attempts to create a Navy with him as the commander in chief. This is quite obviously the action of a very unwell man, and I think that the cronies around him seeing him as a meal ticket are more to be hated than an ill man at the centre of a world he created for himself. Since Hubbard's death, it's these people who most definitely need to be slammed, at least in my opinion.

Like any other subject, do not take someone else's word for it about matters, find out for yourself. I suspect you'll come down on the side of thinking that Scientology is preposterous, but don't let someone else make that decision for you.

[Skybird]

I don't care if hubbard'S SF novel is entertaining or not. the crimes against living people commited by his organization, the psychological submission and exploitation, the abuse of man, the intended deformation of minds, the killing of free will and freedom, the criminal ways of money-accumulation and money-laundring, the ways of sinking into industrial, economical and political hierarchies and decision-making structures to establish scientology there to give them more and more influence to exploit business and industry for their hunger for powe,r and give them the ability to influence education and forming of social structures - this is the thing that counts, this is what they are aiming at.

Your attempt to put it into relation is very misleading, and dangerous, Chock. You want to add a more balanced view to it, but I tell you there is nothing worth to be seen in a "balanced" way, as you understand it. You can't talk it less dangerous, and more nicely, sometimes this is simply not possible with certain things. This is simply sick, criminal, abusive, inhumane. Some kinds of things simply are not to be tolerated, simply that. This is in no way a "religion" that can claim the constitution's protection for freedom of religious practicing. It is a criminal organization, and it does massive damage to people, and exploits the weak ones. Note that throughout europe political verdicts as well as court rulings made it clear that it is no religion in the understanding of European laws. also note that you need to pay them the more money in order to get access to the higher glories and teachings. How altruistic and religiously motivated can that be?

What you said about Hubbard's background in parts I did not know (his navy background), but judging by the damage he already has caused I wished that he would have been locked up in a psychiatry where he probably would have belonged. Hubbard'S biography doesn't make today's scientology any less angerous. they are especially going for the children, the juveniles, and the rich and very influential ones. what they are doing is modern psychological techniques of brainwashing, remote-controlled self-regulation of the subject's mind, using mobbing-like and self-exposing techniques of implying pressure, and creating dependency on the authority of superiors, and the anonymous auhtoirty of the group. The individuality of individuals gets destroyed, and they are being turned into drones instead.

And no excitement in reading Hubbard's SF novel changes a bit in that.

[cobalt]

the crimes against living people commited by his organization, the psychological submission and exploitation, the abuse of man, the intended deformation of minds, the killing of free will and freedom, the criminal ways of money-accumulation and money-laundring, the ways of sinking into industrial, economical and political hierarchies and decision-making structures to establish scientology there to give them more and more influence to exploit business and industry for their hunger for powe,r and give them the ability to influence education and forming of social structures - this is the thing that counts, this is what they are aiming at.




sounds like christianity :huh:

[Chock]

I'm not trying to apologise for it or balance it any more than I would any other subject Skybird, if you notice the second paragraph of my reply to your post, you'll see I state broad agreement with your position. I'm just saying that people ought to not simply accept your opening post without finding out about things for themselves.

I'd make the same statement about anything, whether it was religion or who makes the best chocolate cake. Since when has advocating finding things out for yourself been misleading and dangerous thing to do? At least my post mentions anti submarine operations in WW2, so it has more to do with subsim than some of the other replies :D

One can only assume that by placing your original post in a forum, you are inviting discussion. That's what a forum is for. If you don't want to invite discussion, print up your views on leaflets and distribute them in the street.

By the way, if you want a good laugh, go on YouTube and do a search for 'Message from Xenu' - it says more about Scientology than this discussion probably ever will, and it's quite heartening to see some of the comments from people on that particular clip.

p.s. you can download some Volcano scenery and a freeware DC-8 at www.avsim.com (http://www.avsim.com)

Hail Xenu! :D

[Fish]

ARE THINGS BEING HIDDEN FROM YOU?

If you are reading this, you quite possibly are considering joining Scientology or you are "in" Scientology, but have come to the realization that there MUST be more to it. Guess what? You're right!

If you're in, you have experienced people you love and respect being declared SP (an enemy of Scientology). I know, as I'm now one of them, and I was a member in great standing for 30 years.

For those unfamiliar with this term, SP stands for "Suppressive Person." Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard was always fighting hidden "enemies" and once he decided they were "bad" (usually because they thought differently than he did, or disagreed with him or his policies) he would literally "declare" them SP. A declaration was officially written by top executives, put on a goldenrod-colored piece of paper and distributed throughout Scientology.

On this "SP declare" would be a list of the "crimes" this person had supposedly committed. Once you are declared SP, just to give you an idea of the extent of this, NO ONE within Scientology can or will speak with you, except for one person, the International Justice Chief. (Once I was declared, even this person refused to speak with me, which violates their own policy).

While "in," I was told of all the "bad" things various "SPs" had done. Once out, I have met most of them, and of course their own stories are dramatically different, and one quickly realizes the lies Scientology has told. My "SP declare" is filled with lies. Hubbard said re his supposed enemies, "If you cannot find bad things someone did, make them up."

One by one, these people have stories to tell of how they believed Scientology was _____ and it turned out it just isn't! For many, it was the management. For others, it was Scientology "technology." For many also, it was Hubbard. Many have been lied to, betrayed, abused, deceived, etc. These are common denominators for people who woke up finally, and after years of trying to fix it, they realized (as I did) that Scientology just wasn't up for fixing!

Have things been hidden from you? The best way to find out is to read the many websites, with the facts and experiences on them. Also, there are videos at http://www.xenutv.com (http://www.xenutv.com/) where people who did most or all of the Bridge are speaking out.

Good luck to you! I cannot repeat often enough what my friend, Andreas, said to me, nearly 4 years ago now: FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. Don't take my word for it, or anyone else's. Study up, learn, read, put it together.

Good luck to you!
My very best to all who care,






http://www.xenu.net/

[Skybird]

I'm not trying to apologise for it or balance it any more than I would any other subject Skybird, if you notice the second paragraph of my reply to your post, you'll see I state broad agreement with your position. I'm just saying that people ought to not simply accept your opening post without finding out about things for themselves.

I'd make the same statement about anything, whether it was religion or who makes the best chocolate cake. Since when has advocating finding things out for yourself been misleading and dangerous thing to do? At least my post mentions anti submarine operations in WW2, so it has more to do with subsim than some of the other replies :D

One can only assume that by placing your original post in a forum, you are inviting discussion. That's what a forum is for. If you don't want to invite discussion, print up your views on leaflets and distribute them in the street.

By the way, if you want a good laugh, go on YouTube and do a search for 'Message from Xenu' - it says more about Scientology than this discussion probably ever will, and it's quite heartening to see some of the comments from people on that particular clip.

p.s. you can download some Volcano scenery and a freeware DC-8 at www.avsim.com (http://www.avsim.com)

Hail Xenu! :D
Well maybe I got your tone a bit queer then, sorry. Once I have identified a valid target and managed to get a good range to it I tend to become a bit tunnelviewed... :lol:

BTW, I am surporised that the discussion is even here (we had this scientology debate once or twice in the last two years). The BBC link I gave just included a broadcasting date at the end - as the thread title says, that was the info i primarily wanted to give.

[Skybird]

sounds like christianity :huh:

Or to be more precise - sounds like church policies. As far as I am aware of the gospels, Jesus has not taught comparable things.

[Tchocky]

Apologies for posting from the Daily Mail, but it seems that this is causing quite the fuss :)

Travolta heads Scientology campaign to block BBC expose (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=454430&in_page_id=1773)

[waste gate]

BTW, I am surporised that the discussion is even here (we had this scientology debate once or twice in the last two years).

How are you suprised? You, Skybird, started the thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How more disingenuous can you be? You are an avowed athiest and from the look of this thread a religious persecutor as well. You and your like are the very heart of the demon which enbodies what mankind must resist. Hate because of ignorance. Now I know why your government regularly deny speach freedoms for your countrymen.

What I get from this thread is that Scientology is the new boogeyman which supplants the Jew. I for one am calling you out and asking what is the difference between what yo are saying and what the NAZIs said in 1933. We have seen this before from Germans. You and your ilk are on a slippery slope to banning all religion.


Your behavior disgusts me. Freedom of worship is just as important as freedom not to worship.

[Takeda Shingen]

This thread should be closed swiftly.

You are correct. I should have closed this much earlier, as I have not been at all comfortable with the tone of this particular discussion.

It is time that I corrected my mistake.