[GWX] planes.. aarghhh

[johan_d]

Now in 1943, and lets say, destroyers are peanuts when you are been hunted with the bloody RAF planes..
They got me more than once, and there are a lot of them, now finally after more going submerged than on the surface, reaching northern Spain.
I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?

And, any surving suggestions.. I mean its about time now to fire a torpedo in stead of cat and mouse games with those buzzing flees.

Oh, the creators of this.. damn you!! :rotfl:

[rb4door]

sounds like some U-Flak retribution is needed :yep:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Now in 1943, and lets say, destroyers are peanuts when you are been hunted with the bloody RAF planes..
They got me more than once, and there are a lot of them, now finally after more going submerged than on the surface, reaching northern Spain.
I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?

And, any surving suggestions.. I mean its about time now to fire a torpedo in stead of cat and mouse games with those buzzing flees.

Oh, the creators of this.. damn you!! :rotfl:

Later in the war, planes were hell:o

RDP

[Jimbuna]

Sounds like the in game realism is just about right :arrgh!:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Sounds like the in game realism is just about right :arrgh!:

Yeah big-time, remembering back to when I first played GWX in December, loved this feature, still do. For the first time I felt like I was in an Iron Coffin.

RDP

[GoldenRivet]

The best strategy i have used is to submerge through most of the biscay crossing... the shallow waters preclude crash dives.

secondly, when your in deeper waters stay submerged to about 40 meters just long enough to use up about 25% of your battery... only surfacing to recharge that 25%.

get the snorkel as soon as you can and stay submerged using the snorkel in short 10 minute bursts to recharge. The allies knew that the U-boats covered a lot of ground on the surface and that by using airplanes to keep them submerged the range and attack capability of the U-boats was greatly impacted. any look at U-bot fates in U-boats.net will reveal that most U-boats were victims of air attacks.

U-Flak is good too but only if you are faced with something like a swordfish bomber. on the other hand if you try and use the U-flak against a couple of mosquitoes you will be woefully dissapointed in how quickly your U-boat sinks after a rocket attack.

[Umfuld]

I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?The map that comes with SHIII shows the air coverage in 1943 to be quite extensive. Again, that's just the stock air coverage.

[STEED]

sounds like some U-Flak retribution is needed :yep:

Your joking they will inflict nasty damage and I know that for a fact.

[Jimbuna]

any look at U-bot fates in U-boats.net will reveal that most U-boats were victims of air attacks.

I beg to differ kaleun :nope: It was a close run thing but ships were the biggest causation factor according to your source :hmm:

http://uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm

[Avatar]

I'm new to sh3 and have been on 3 patrols, I dont know if you know this, but the map that came with the game is in the upper left-hand corner of the chart table. You just have to click and drag it so that you can view the entire map. This was wonderful to discover as the convoy routes are listed and the a/c patrol ranges are listed.

[Jimbuna]

I'm new to sh3 and have been on 3 patrols, I dont know if you know this, but the map that came with the game is in the upper left-hand corner of the chart table. You just have to click and drag it so that you can view the entire map. This was wonderful to discover as the convoy routes are listed and the a/c patrol ranges are listed.

Thanks for the 'heads up' but it has been mentione in the past :up:

[johan_d]

Great advise, but it still doesnt make them go away! lol..

Well, I do not wish to use the 25% rule, I stick to the 50% rule. Why? what if I encouter destroyers of targets? 25% is too less to survive. Keeping that extra 25% ready for emergencies is my tactic now.

The problem is, with all those planes my batteries cannot recharge, every time they recharge to the point I was before, another plane comes in. dive, use battery power, plane goes away, surface, recharge, bang.. another plane.

The flak.. well I learned my lesson, never use them, useless. I only want to use it when diving isnt an option due drained batteries.. otherwise, dive dive dive.. euh. TAUCHEN!

Main issue, is that it is hard to travel a reasonable distance. Last night I was forced to give up a persued on some merchants due the bloody planes. Can I ever fire a torpedo?

They DO fly at night, not as regulary, but they are plenty..

So, from now on its no more fun I guess!:o

PS: Jimbuna, I hate you!, you spoiled my greed for tonnage!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Great advise, but it still doesnt make them go away! lol..

Well, I do not wish to use the 25% rule, I stick to the 50% rule. Why? what if I encouter destroyers of targets? 25% is too less to survive. Keeping that extra 25% ready for emergencies is my tactic now.

The problem is, with all those planes my batteries cannot recharge, every time they recharge to the point I was before, another plane comes in. dive, use battery power, plane goes away, surface, recharge, bang.. another plane.

The flak.. well I learned my lesson, never use them, useless. I only want to use it when diving isnt an option due drained batteries.. otherwise, dive dive dive.. euh. TAUCHEN!

Main issue, is that it is hard to travel a reasonable distance. Last night I was forced to give up a persued on some merchants due the bloody planes. Can I ever fire a torpedo?

They DO fly at night, not as regulary, but they are plenty..

So, from now on its no more fun I guess!:o

PS: Jimbuna, I hate you!, you spoiled my greed for tonnage!

Welcome to the painful world of being a U-boat captain.

At least when we die in-game... it doesn't hurt.

I recommend getting a snorkel as soon as it is available. However, even that is not radar-proof.

If your batteries are taxed from having to stay submerged for long periods of time... it sounds like we've done our job properly.

[johan_d]

on the ocean, no schnorckel, and did i told you that I hate you? :rotfl:

[GoldenRivet]

Johan D...

As far as the air power keeping the U-boats submerged for a majority of their late war life goes thats pretty accurate, i mean the allies figured if they got lucky and cought a U-boat on the surface and could sink her thats great but the main purpose of the air strategy thinking is as follows

1. the allies knew that the underwater speed of the U-boats was greatly reduced

2. the allies knew that the underwater range of the U-boats was greatly reduced

3. the allies knew that there was currently no known u-boat that could stay submerged forever

4. the strategy of using ships to hunt u-boats wouldnt work because the u-boat almost always had the advantage and could either sneak in to attack or sneak away etc.

the only answer at the time for the allies was using airplanes. they were fast, they had long range, early on the only way for a u-boat to detect an airplane was to see or hear it. seeing an airplane is difficult because until it is on you it is a speck in the sky... also looking in the direction of the sound to spot an airplane doesnt always work because it takes time for the sound to reach you... planes could hide in overcast layers or even glide down onto their victims without ever being detected.

Because of airplanes, from 1943 onward U-boats rarely traveled on the surface... for the u-boats this meant it would take much much longer to reach the shipping lanes... for the allies this meant that more convoys could get through the danger zones before u-boats had a chance to arrive on station.

according to several books i have read or have seen quoted after 1943 it was virtually impossible to even leave port and cross the bay of biscay without facing several air attacks. anyone attempting to run on the surface after 1943 would literally be crash diving every few hours - an exhausting thing to have to go through - either that or they would quite simply be bombed and killed.

early in the war night time air patrols were a non existant thing, a U-boat commander could just about guarantee safe passage by cruising on the surface at night. since there were no radar equipped aircraft the pilots and gunners and bombardiers were the only source for detecting a U-boat... unless you are a flyer over the ocean at night looking for a brightly lit up party barge shooting off fireworks you wouldnt have a hoot in hell of finding anything with your naked eyes - least of all an unlighted u-boat sitting low in the water.

but two specific advances in technology made night searches possible for airplanes. Radar, which could pinpoint the exact location of even something as small as a periscope mast in a calm sea... and the leigh light which was a powerful 20+ million candel power spot light. basically the aircraft would set up an attack on the "radar blip" and when they got to within a specific range of the "blip" on goes the spot light usually shining right on a surprised U-boat crew. the fortunate thing for the U-boats as small as a fortune as it might have been was that not all airplanes were equipped with the combination radar and leigh light therfore the night searches though still lethal did not occur nearly as often as the day searches.

to get a sense of what GWX is trying to do, i think you should take a look at these estimates i borrowed from U-boats.net...

1939 - 9 u-boats lost
1940 - 24 u-boats lost
1941 - 35 u-boats lost
1942 - 86 u-boats lost
1943 - and here is where it gets rough on the u-boats ... 242 u-boats lost
1944 -250 u-boats lost
1945 - 120 u-boats lost by the first 5 months of '45

so as you can see the odds stack up against the u-boats severely after the winter of 1942 spring of 1943. and if one consideres the number of men on each boat - you could consider yourself a VAST minority to be a survivor of ww2 as a U-boat sailor.

[johan_d]

thanks for you great explanation. i understand fully, just ranting about those blody planes from hell! haha..

I am a flightsim fanatic myself, and know a lot about planes, so it is not a suprise, the only suprise i had was that those darn guys from GWX did it so right.. its amazing how good it is, and how frustrating on the other side. I wonder if anyone can do the campaign from 1939 up to 1945 this way, gameplay wise.

But, the funny part is I was always looking out for destroyers, but now, I dont care about them, the planes are the real killers.

Continueing to have fun.. and tanks for your story!

[Hartmann]

Snorkel !!

get it as soon as possible, in that point of the war the planes makes miserable the life of the u-boat , turning it to a coffin.

Also the luftwaffe was very bussy in germany becase the bombers were converting cities and factories in a pile of rubble.

i like too flight sims and i don´t have any doubt, if i see a submarine i will dive at full speed blazing fire with all weapons

[Kpt. Lehmann]

on the ocean, no schnorckel, and did i told you that I hate you? :rotfl:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

We love you too mate. Group hug?

[Reverie]

I don't know if it has been factored into the software, and as it hasn't been mentioned yet, I have been finding success in the Bay of Biscay by following the Piening Route.
Reverie

[cunnutazzo]

Yes the airplanes are very dangerous, but it doesn't mean that your hull is reduced at 76% or less cause some bullets hits. And the airplanes are very though. In GWX the Uboot are made in aluminum and the planes are made with vanadium steel. :lol:

An Uboot needs of a BOMB or more to get sunk, not some bullets hits, in this case GWX is not realistic, it is in "masochistic" mode.

[Jimbuna]

Yes the airplanes are very dangerous, but it doesn't mean that your hull is reduced at 76% or less cause some bullets hits. And the airplanes are very though. In GWX the Uboot are made in aluminum and the planes are made with vanadium steel. :lol:

An Uboot needs of a BOMB or more to get sunk, not some bullets hits, in this case GWX is not realistic, it is in "masochistic" mode.

Wrong :nope:
Large calibre bullets were capable of piercing thin armour and decimating equipment up top also :arrgh!:

[melnibonian]

Yes the airplanes are very dangerous, but it doesn't mean that your hull is reduced at 76% or less cause some bullets hits. And the airplanes are very though. In GWX the Uboot are made in aluminum and the planes are made with vanadium steel. :lol:

An Uboot needs of a BOMB or more to get sunk, not some bullets hits, in this case GWX is not realistic, it is in "masochistic" mode.
Vanadium has some really great properties (like large scattering cross section) but it's not used in GWX ;) :p

On a serious note: In reallity the U-Boat Hull was not armoured (at least in most parts). It was a pressure hull and thus any hole on it could cause problems to the boat's integrity under water. So that means that a few hits with a machine gun from a plane can cause your boat serious damage.

Now on the Vanadium issue (strong airplanes :p ): Most of the airplanes of the time were made out of wood or fabric. Therefore any hit from a machine gun would do minimal damage to them. Also don't forget that when you're firing on a plane comming towards you at high speed you have a small area to aim for. This is important as that way most of your bullets will miss. The ones that do hit will most probably hit the coolant and the engine cover (both armoured in most planes of the time) and will do minimal damage. The only area where you can actually do critical damage to a WWII plane is if you score a direct hit on the pilot or in the area around and behind the cocpit were all the fuel is stored.

Hopefully this will answer your question regarding the U-Boat vs Airplane fight in GWX ;) :D

[Paajtor]

Try to aim for the wing-roots...:arrgh!:

[cunnutazzo]

Wrong :nope:
Large calibre bullets were capable of piercing thin armour and decimating equipment up top also :arrgh!:

Of course, may be a 57mm cannon or repeated hits by 20mm (special shells) may damage the hull seriously. But the "light guns" on the Sunderlands can make just some holes in the conning tower. Maybe the Sunderland had 20 and 57 cannons? And this was happened to me: just some hits from a Sunderland and my hull efficiency was strongly reduced. The history tells us that the Uboots were sunk by bombs, not by .303 or .50 guns. Also, some real kaleuns tales tell us that in certain conditions the heavy guns on the Uboot were very dangerous, it is the case when a plane approachs to close to the Uboot.

[Mueller72]

[...] reaching northern Spain.
I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?[...]


Northern Spain? Look here at "The valley of Death"

http://uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm

:|\\

[Jimbuna]

[...] reaching northern Spain.
I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?[...]


Northern Spain? Look here at "The valley of Death"

http://uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm

:|\\

Most aptly named :arrgh!:

[johan_d]

I managed to escape, but with a hull of 29% the odds were against me.
Sunk a lone merchand in sector CF, and headed north. Stumbled on a convoy, missed a target, destroyers were searching me, and worked nicely together.
Depthcharged.. dead!.

Well, that was the glorious fight.. it was great and thanks the GWX team for the expirience!.:up:

Time to start a new carreer.

Johan

[TarJak]

Yes the airplanes are very dangerous, but it doesn't mean that your hull is reduced at 76% or less cause some bullets hits. And the airplanes are very though. In GWX the Uboot are made in aluminum and the planes are made with vanadium steel. :lol:

An Uboot needs of a BOMB or more to get sunk, not some bullets hits, in this case GWX is not realistic, it is in "masochistic" mode.

Even a .303 bullet has a chance of penetrating the pressure hull. One hole like that can ruin your day when you dive.

[Telgriff]

Simple rule for aircraft in GWX...crashdive. I am almost NEVER on the surface when in allied air cover areas. I usually only surface at night to re-stock on air before submerging again.

[TarJak]

I'm sailing out of Bergen in 1943 and from about 100km from the Norwegian cast at almost 2 hourly intervals I get buzzed by the RAF or Fleet Air Arm. It's a long slow painful trip to anywhere, particularly with no schnorkel.

Got banged up by two swordfish yesterday. I managed to bring one down before it could complete it's bobm run but it's partner got a shot which killed my tow flak gunners and damaged the guns. Lukily I was able to submerge before he came back but the only answer is to stay underwater and out of their way.

[Jimbuna]

The Swordfish is easier to shoot down because of its slow speed, but on the other hand its a steadier platform for a bombing run. :arrgh!:

[ReallyDedPoet]

[...] reaching northern Spain.
I wonder how far they can fly from England, and if anyone know their range ?[...]

Northern Spain? Look here at "The valley of Death"

http://uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm

:|\\

Welcome:up:

RDP

[johan_d]

Well, night doesnt matter, they are less, but still patrol around. Dont be fooled by darkness!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, night doesnt matter, they are less, but still patrol around. Dont be fooled by darkness!

Leigh lights.:ping:

[Jimbuna]

Radar :ping: :D

[bigboywooly]

Also dont forget the allies had use of the Azores from 43 also
Aircraft from both directions

:damn:

Mainly bought about by the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance between Britain and Portugal dating back to 1373 :o

[Sailor Steve]

Now on the Vanadium issue (strong airplanes :p ): Most of the airplanes of the time were made out of wood or fabric.
Not true. I'm pretty sure even the Swordfish had an aluminum frame. It and a couple of others had fabric skins, but most planes were built out of and skinned with aluminum. The point about the small target is right on the money, though. Also, even a .303 bullet doesn't have to penetrate anything; it just has to kill everybody standing on the bridge and gun positions, and that's more likely than the AA guns shooting down the plane.

[melnibonian]

Now on the Vanadium issue (strong airplanes :p ): Most of the airplanes of the time were made out of wood or fabric.
Not true. I'm pretty sure even the Swordfish had an aluminum frame. It and a couple of others had fabric skins, but most planes were built out of and skinned with aluminum.
That's correct. What I meant was that some planes were wooden or made out of fabric (Huricane, Mosquito etc). The ones that were made from aluminium were also quite "bullet free" as most of the vital equipment was stored in the front part of the plane and around the pilot. So if you drill a couple of holes in the airframe of a Spitfire (Fully made of Aluminium) it will not bring it down unless you hit something vital (i.e the pilot, the fuel tanks behind him or a multiple direct and lucky hit on the engine)

The point about the small target is right on the money, though. Also, even a .303 bullet doesn't have to penetrate anything; it just has to kill everybody standing on the bridge and gun positions, and that's more likely than the AA guns shooting down the plane.
That's true. Also even if the bullets won't kill you they can cause serious injuries and the shock effect on the fellow sailors will be huge.

[TarJak]

The point about the small target is right on the money, though. Also, even a .303 bullet doesn't have to penetrate anything; it just has to kill everybody standing on the bridge and gun positions, and that's more likely than the AA guns shooting down the plane. That's true. Also even if the bullets won't kill you they can cause serious injuries and the shock effect on the fellow sailors will be huge.

I can't think of anything more shocking to a crew than seeing a group of their guys with sucking chest wounds dying on the control room floor with very little in the way of medical assistance. Even if they were lucky enough to have a qualified medic aboard, gunshot wounds are not fun or easy to fix, particularly in cramped dark and damp conditions. Shock effect: Massive:o

[melnibonian]

I can't think of anything more shocking to a crew than seeing a group of their guys with sucking chest wounds dying on the control room floor with very little in the way of medical assistance. Even if they were lucky enough to have a qualified medic aboard, gunshot wounds are not fun or easy to fix, particularly in cramped dark and damp conditions. Shock effect: Massive:o
Spot On TarJak :up: It has a horrible effect on the moral of the crew, and it also indicates their mortality. When you see your friends die in front of your eyes you start thinking that you might be next.