SH4 VS Sh3

[Captain_AJ]

I have been playing Sh4 and It seems that after my first patrol . .. well its just plain boring compared to sh3 .. anyone have have any comments ?

[azn_132]

Wait for a supermod to be release for SH4.

[ReM]

Wait for a supermod to be release for SH4.

So true..if the modders had not done such a great job with SH III, it would have been on there the shelf for a long time already, collecting dust....

Give it some time, SH IV will be a great game as well.....it only needs some tweaking

[HunterICX]

I have been playing Sh4 and It seems that after my first patrol . .. well its just plain boring compared to sh3 .. anyone have have any comments ?

SH3 is reaching is goal done by Supermods

SH4 needs to be fully patched by UBI first before mayor mods can be made for her

Time will tell us what SH4 will be over a year, but thats for time to decide

[SmokinTep]

I'm waiting for SHIV to get fixed up a bit before I get it.

[Iron Budokan]

The modders will pimp out SH4 the same way they did for SH3. Give 'em time.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Compare Stock SH3 vs. Stock SH4, I would choose SH4. That being said, SH4 is not GWX, but will improve big-time with the next patch and an eventual super-mod. With regards to a super-mod, this is being talked about already.

Lots of great mods for SH4, even this early in the game. Still have GWX on the computer and will continue to play it as well:yep:

RDP

[Steel_Tomb]

comparing stock SH3 & 4, SH4 is better its just my PC can't cope with it. SH3 & GWX 1.03 is just too good to pass up at the moment, plus I just prefer the atlantic for some reason its just better been german lol:arrgh!:...ALLLAAAAAAARRRM!

[ReallyDedPoet]

comparing stock SH3 & 4, SH4 is better its just my PC can't cope with it. SH3 & GWX 1.03 is just too good to pass up at the moment, plus I just prefer the atlantic for some reason its just better been german lol:arrgh!:...ALLLAAAAAAARRRM!

Yeah, I am not saying play stock SH3, just if folks are comparing. GWX took SH3 into the stratosphere:yep:

RDP

[bruschi sauro]

Silent Hunter 3 vith the SuperMod GWX for me is (in this moment) the best,:rock:
I'm waiting for GWX 1.04:yep: ...Silent Hunter 4 .... brrrrr.. i have installed on 22.3.07
with the patch 1.01.I played 1/2 mission and started one career:hmm: :nope: ,after the patch 1.02 i started a new career, but this game in this moment for me is unplayable. :nope:

[Telgriff]

I think SHIV will stay unpurchased until it goes the same way as SHIII and gets at LEAST a few decent updates behind it, a supermod will be nice, but hey they're all busy in GWX :rock:

[azn_132]

I think SHIV will stay unpurchased until it goes the same way as SHIII and gets at LEAST a few decent updates behind it, a supermod will be nice, but hey they're all busy in GWX :rock:

I agree to that! but I just got SH4 oh well, goin to play that first then go bak to GWX 1.03 or 1.04 if it comes out yet.

[JU_88]

I hate to say this but -
In my opinion, anyone who boycotts SHIV because its not their chosen theatre - is shooting them selves in the foot.

In a way we owe it to ourselves to go out and purchase SHIV weather we like the Pacific or not, as the sales figures for SHIV will likely seal the fate of the SH franchise. In short, if SHIV is a commercial flop then dont expect Ubi to green light SHV.
In time im sure we will get to return to the atlantic, but only if we can continue to fuel this niche market in a world ruled by first person shooters.

Its not like you can afford to be picky when it comes to subsims anyway.

[robbo180265]

I hate to say this but -
In my opinion, anyone who boycotts SHIV because its not their chosen theatre - is shooting them selves in the foot.

In a way we owe it to ourselves to go out and purchase SHIV weather we like the Pacific or not, as the sales figures for SHIV will likely seal the fate of the SH franchise. In short, if SHIV is a commercial flop then dont expect Ubi to green light SHV.
In time im sure we will get to return to the atlantic, but only if we can continue to fuel this niche market in a world ruled by first person shooters.

Its not like you can afford to be picky when it comes to subsims anyway.

Whilst I see your point, I am in no way going to run out and buy a half finished game, especially in a theater I'm not at all interested in just to prolong the life of half finished subsims. If Ubisoft had done the magic with SHIV then yes,I'd say your argument holds water,and in all honesty I'd probably buy it(and I still might,in a few years time,when it's been supermodded and the various problems with it are sorted)

But not at the moment matey, I'm happy where I am - NW of Lisbon,ducking air attacks in my IXC:arrgh!:

[Ducimus]

Off the top of my head, some of the subtle improvements in SH4:

- There is no master RND layer, only a master CFG file, that connects all the different MIS files together. Traffic is seperated by year and type (merchants, convoys, task forces, etc). You can also create sea battles and edit them into the master CFG so they appear in the campaign at a specified date.

- Harbor traffic is not scripted. Its dynamic. It uses an RND layer now. This means, harbor contents change, even during a patrol.

- Random, only the fly mission assigments via submitting contact or status reports.

- "millk cow" support is built iinto the game,and can be done, "on the fly" during a patrol. It does not requrie you to dock and end your patrol.

- Varying missions, other then the usual, "Go here, sit there for X time" grid assignment type missions.

- built in thermal layers that work (a little too well if you ask me :roll: )

[JU_88]

I hate to say this but -
In my opinion, anyone who boycotts SHIV because its not their chosen theatre - is shooting them selves in the foot.

In a way we owe it to ourselves to go out and purchase SHIV weather we like the Pacific or not, as the sales figures for SHIV will likely seal the fate of the SH franchise. In short, if SHIV is a commercial flop then dont expect Ubi to green light SHV.
In time im sure we will get to return to the atlantic, but only if we can continue to fuel this niche market in a world ruled by first person shooters.

Its not like you can afford to be picky when it comes to subsims anyway.

Whilst I see your point, I am in no way going to run out and buy a half finished game, especially in a theater I'm not at all interested in just to prolong the life of half finished subsims. If Ubisoft had done the magic with SHIV then yes,I'd say your argument holds water,and in all honesty I'd probably buy it(and I still might,in a few years time,when it's been supermodded and the various problems with it are sorted)

But not at the moment matey, I'm happy where I am - NW of Lisbon,ducking air attacks in my IXC:arrgh!:

Yeah but half finnished subsims are better than nothing, Agreed, we can mod the hell out of a half finnished game, but we cant mod a game that doesnt exist!
In 2009 I think most of us would rather be playing SH5 not Quake5

All im saying is look an SH4 purchase as a long term thing, it will be great when it gets a super mod AND think of it as an investment in the SH Franchise in general, rather than just paying for a one off game.
Its a catch 22,
If there is more support for ' the half finnished subsims' then developers might be allowed bigger rescources and budget to make more complete titles.
the moment we just refuse to by half finnished subsims (an already risky venture for any publisher) - we are bascially sentencing the genre to death.

[Ducimus]

JU_88 does have a point.
In this list, how many sub sims do you see, and how many are recent games?
http://www.subsim.com/subsim_reviews_index.html

Now, what were the 3 (edit 4) most recent sub games?

# Silent Hunter I, realeased in 1996
# Silent Hunter II, sequel released in 2001.
# Silent Hunter III, sequel released in 2005.
# Silent Hunter 4, released in March 2007


Nobody else is making them. Probably because nobody else wants to, because theres more money to be made in other game genre's. Money is ultimatly the bottom line, its why companies exist.

[JU_88]

Yep, If we want to continue to feed our virtual submarine addictions - we need to be looking at the bigger picture.
We are treading on thin ice here.... look at what happened to Tank sims.

[Ducimus]

What tank sim's?

[JU_88]

What tank sim's?

Exactly!! :yep:

[Reece]

I have purchased SH4 when it first came out, tried with stock & 1.01, but totally disapointed, it should never have been released in that state & although I can see the reasons for people not wanting to upset UBI, I can understand others venting their frustrations, to a majority of purchasers US$50, I paid AU$100, is a lot of money!!:-?
I find it to be unplayable in it's present condition, have shelved it, not taken it back in the hope that a future patch & community effort will fix it, not to mention the problems I keep getting with securom, worse than starforce ..... Ahhh!:damn:
Well, back to SHIII & loving it!:yep:

[joea]

What tank sim's?
Exactly!! :yep:

We got at least one coming this year..."T-34 vs. Tiger" and of course Steel Beasts.

BTW these threads are useless IMO.

[joea]

I have purchased SH4 when it first came out, tried with stock & 1.01, but totally disapointed, it should never have been released in that state & although I can see the reasons for people not wanting to upset UBI, I can understand others venting their frustrations, to a majority of purchasers US$50, I paid AU$100, is a lot of money!!:-?
I find it to be unplayable in it's present condition, have shelved it, not taken it back in the hope that a future patch & community effort will fix it, not to mention the problems I keep getting with securom, worse than starforce ..... Ahhh!:damn:
Well, back to SHIII & loving it!:yep:

A lot of people have no problems with it and there are already mods, I see you didn't even try patch 1.2 so how do you know it is unplayable??? :shifty:

[Chock]

I'm not a massive fan of the Pacific Theatre as a basis for sub sims (or should that be Theater? :D ), I think that the Atlantic sub battle was simply more interesting, but it should come as no surprise that many (particularly) Americans will prefer a Pacific campaign, and I daresay they will think the Atlantic sub battle was the boring one.

Maybe I just like playing the underdogs and bad guys in a sim; I suspect that if you could be a Japanese sub driver I'd find SH4 more fun, I always seem to end up driving the Akula in Dangerous Waters even though I know the Yank subs are better!

Think of it like this: Everyone knows the Nazis were nasty and they deserved to get their arses kicked, but ask an actor if they'd like to play a Gestapo Officer and they'll be falling over themselves in the rush to try the uniform on (Hardly surprising when you consider that many of the German uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss). There is a mystique about the Third Reich that just isn't there in much of the Allied stuff. Like the movies, the bad guys are always the coolest - a lot the bad guy's equipment in Star Wars is based on WW2 German equipment or derivatives of it, for example.

Nevertheless, regardless of what it features, a submarine sim will always interest me, and I do like SH4, particularly since I've not had many of the problems lots of other people seem to be having. At least with SH4, you get to be on the winning side!

Regardless of whether you prefer the Atlantic or the Pacific, there's no denying that some of SH4 is sloppy work, which probably doesn't help endear it to many players. Much of it is just rehashed from SH3, in some cases, with no attempt to even bother renaming files, i.e the Japanese aircraft using sound files for bf-109s and Ju-87s. But then again, there are some elements of SH4 that are vast improvements too, so SH4 certainly has the potential to be a much better sim than SH3, and I'm sure it eventually will be just that.

Give SH4 some time, after all, we're all doing exactly that with SH3.

Now, where's my German hat... :D

[Ducimus]

I think people naturally prefer the theater which is closest to home, and/or the theater their home nation was most involved in.

The atlantic has one thing going for it. A good movie. If Das boot never existed, i think alot of people who prefer the atlantic would be more ambivalent in their theater preference, or would default to the one closest to home.

[Chock]

If the movie preference reasons are true, and Das Boot hooks the SH3 fans, with Run Silent, Run Deep hooking the SH4 fans, perhaps we could create a mod called 'Silent Hunter Three and a Half'? That would please everyone!

We could base it on U-571 and Lorelei: The Witch of the Pacific...

Erm... hang on a minute...no that wouldn't work would it? They're the two worst sub movies ever. It would require us to take the least likeable elements from both SH3 and SH4 and combine them :D

Oh well, another mod idea bites the dust!

[Ducimus]

While i know your being sarchastic, you really can't compare "Run silent run deep" and "Das boot". I mean, your average joe walks into a video store, and is looking to watch a war movie, and see's the two boxes sitting side by side on the shelf, which looks more appealing? The color movie, digitally remastered with surround sound on dvd or some old black and white movie with actors only grandparents could appreciate on VHS?
http://aryanwear.com/images/das_boot.jpg http://www.joebuff.com/fav01.jpg

No contest!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I think people naturally prefer the theater which is closest to home, and/or the theater their home nation was most involved in.

The atlantic has one thing going for it. A good movie. If Das boot never existed, i think alot of people who prefer the atlantic would be more ambivalent in their theater preference, or would default to the one closest to home.

This crap is just going too far.

Sigh. YEs yessss yesss Ducimus we have been made painfully aware how "burned out" you are on U-boats etc etc etc etc etc.

Speaking for myself (and I imagine quite a few others) I preferred U-boats before I ever saw Das Boot.

I'm an American. Pacific stuff just doesn't have the appeal for me that ETO stuff does. That doesn't make me some sort of mutant... or change my political alignment.

In a perfect world, we could choose our theater and sub of choice within the simulator. For now we cannot... and you even resist the idea of such a thing anyway.

Relax. Go enjoy SH4 and don't worry about what everybody else feels or is doing. Why should it even matter to you? You get so bent out of shape about this Atlantic versus Pacific thing that its really starting to look juvenile.

Christ man, no one is going to come and take your Fleet Boats or your favorite theater away.

[Ducimus]

KL, your over reacting to a mere observation, no more no less, why so defensive? I can only guess becuse your forum handle is derived from a das boot influence. Thats not a stab either, just something i noticed years ago. Hell, modding SH3, it was all about getting those "das boot moments", so dont tell me a movie has nothing to do with it. :rotfl:

So i still maintain my observation. If das boat was never made, i really dont think the atlantic would be as popular as it is here. In all truthfulness, if i hadnt read the amount of material i did years ago, i wouldnt have an iota of intrest in the pacific theater either. Not everyone reads up like that, and a movie is much easier to absorb.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Addenda:

I'm betting a dollar that SH4 will do at least as good in sales as SH3 for the simple fact that it will be a big draw in the U.S. as compared to U-boats anyway.

I'd say most people here have bought a copy "for the sake of the devs" ... I did.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

KL, your over reacting to a mere observation, no more no less, why so defensive? I can only guess becuse your forum handle is derived from a das boot influence. Thats not a stab either, just something i noticed years ago. Hell, modding SH3, it was all about getting those "das boot moments", so dont tell me a movie has nothing to do with it. :rotfl:

So i still maintain my observation. If das boat was never made, i really dont think the atlantic would be as popular as it is here. In all truthfulness, if i hadnt read the amount of material i did years ago, i wouldnt have an iota of intrest in the pacific theater either. Not everyone reads up like that, and a movie is much easier to absorb.

Lol, methinks you've been the one with the defensive postings in the SH3 forum mate... typically complaining about how you are so tired of the ETO stuff... but it really doesn't matter. I think more people found out about the movie Das Boot after getting SH3 and coming here.

I think that if anything... Das Boot "solidified" some players after they got the game... not the other way round.

Yes, I am telling you that I feel that in this case, I don't think "a movie" had anything to do with the initial draw of the U-boats / players drawn to SH3.

Speculation on such things is really pointless anyway.

Florin Boitor said it himself when they were deciding whether SH3 would be ETO or PTO. "U-boats are simply the fattest subject." Decision made.

[Ducimus]

Thats a good bet. I think Ubi deliberatly targeted the US audience. Espeically given this day and age where people are waving the flag a bit more then usual. That and not everyone in the US can get into uboats because well, its ww2 and nazi. Thats all most people know or think about it, so the game was made for a broader appeal. I just hope they didnt shoot themselves in the foot with the above average number of bugs when released.

Now, again, KL, im not digging here, just stating what i thought. While i may have my preference in theater, im not ignorant, i know the history of the atlantic quite well. Hell, when i made career games in SH3, 90% of my games started when the selected boat was first launched or comissioned with the real captains name, and even conning tower insigna. If i couldnt get the captains picture and insigna right, id pick another boat to run. Thats how much i was into it, so really man, theres no need to bark up my tree.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Doenitz made an effort to keep politics out of the U-boat. I don't feel the slightest bit "Nazi" for enjoying a PC simulation.

I'm not confused.

....so really man, theres no need to bark up my tree.

... or for you to bark up mine, now is there? ;)

[Ducimus]

Hmm, i see im one past behind you. lol.

Lol, methinks you've been the one with the defensive postings in the SH3 forum mate...

Ive been calm and rational, and Im not the one who flew off the handle ;) Anyway, like you said this thread is pointless, well it wasnt, but now it is. Orginally i was pointing out technical reasons on one game vs the other, not historical ones. Later on Someone made an observation, and i responded with my own in the spirit of discussion. No more, no less. Now if i was digging, you of all people should know, id put it out point blank and bluntly.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hmm, i see im one past behind you. lol.

Lol, methinks you've been the one with the defensive postings in the SH3 forum mate...

Ive been calm and rational, and Im not the one who flew off the handle ;) Anyway, like you said this thread is pointless, well it wasnt, but now it is. Orginally i was pointing out technical reasons on one game vs the other, not historical ones. Later on Someone made an observation, and i responded with my own in the spirit of discussion. No more, no less. Now if i was digging, you of all people should know, id put it out point blank and bluntly.

...And you would know if I flew off the handle. ;)

I'm just tired of watching you despairage (sp?) SH3 and/or U-boats, without countering it.
LOL, its almost like you post here to make recruiting runs looking for new SH4 players.

Besides, if you don't like what I have to say, you certainly don't have to read it.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Kataki]

Off the top of my head, some of the subtle improvements in SH4:

- There is no master RND layer, only a master CFG file, that connects all the different MIS files together. Traffic is seperated by year and type (merchants, convoys, task forces, etc). You can also create sea battles and edit them into the master CFG so they appear in the campaign at a specified date.

- Harbor traffic is not scripted. Its dynamic. It uses an RND layer now. This means, harbor contents change, even during a patrol.

- Random, only the fly mission assigments via submitting contact or status reports.

- "millk cow" support is built iinto the game,and can be done, "on the fly" during a patrol. It does not requrie you to dock and end your patrol.

- Varying missions, other then the usual, "Go here, sit there for X time" grid assignment type missions.

- built in thermal layers that work (a little too well if you ask me :roll: )

I'd Have to agree.

Everyone says that SH3 is the best (er this IS the SH3 forums ;P) because it is finished and there are mods which add to the game already out. Stock SHIV is much better than Stock SH3, and given time and mods will be better than GWX. People like to say that SHIV is just eye candy, and atm they are mostly correct, but isnt that the hardest part for modders? Number crunching and mission tweaking is something more people can do without an SDK when compared to adding normal mapping/transparent water/3D wakes and other graphical resources. I can see possiblities with SHIV despite its buggy/unfinished state. Even the mini-super mods have improved the game drastically so I am eager to see what lies ahead :)

I hope that someone does make a U-Boat War mod for SHIV and hopefully do as much as possible from scratch because that always leads to a better final product rather than "simply" converting it. If anyone has seen the differences between Half-Life Source, and Half-Life 2 mod Black Mesa Source you know what I mean( http://blackmesasource.com/ ).

Kinda off topic:
I read that a lot of the atlantic ports in SH3 are there and fairly complete and some even better than thier SH3 equivilants. Anyone Confirm this?

Also as far as this "buy shiv to keep the sub sim alive" deal goes, I dont think you need to worry about that

SHIV is UBI's 2nd top selling PC game by April 22nd.

Top PC

1 SIMS 2 EA 1.208/ 23.700
2 WORLD OF WARCRAFT VIVENDI 889/ 53.092
3 WORLD OF WARCRAFT: THE BURNING VIVENDI 798/ 50.075
4 COMMAND& CONQUER 3: TIBERIUM WARS EA 585/ 5.282
5 AOE COLLECTOR'S EDITION CODEGAME UBI SOFT 582/ 29.814
6 IMPERIVM CIVITAS FX INTERACTIVE 554/ 57.738
7 COUNTER STRIKE: SOURCE ELECTRONIC ARTS 518/ 39.037
8 SILENT HUNTER 4 nCODEGAME UBI SOFT 497/ 3.574

[Happy Times]

I just ordered SH4 but its just for support now, im not going to even open it yet.
Il wait untill realism mods start to come out.

[Reece]

A lot of people have no problems with it and there are already mods, I see you didn't even try patch 1.2 so how do you know it is unplayable??? :shifty:
Well Joea, it could be because of this:

Silent Hunter 4 - Bug list v4c - minor update

Changelog 4c
Updated 1) Workaround/fix by Ducimus
Updated 60) More information
Updated 75) Confirmation
Added issue 78)
Added issue 79)

Changelog 4b
Updated 6) More information
Updated 20) More information
Fixed mod link in 23)
Updated 23) More information
Updated 28) More information
Added player note issue 28)
Updated 51) More information
Updated 61) More information
Combined issue 70) with issue 28)
Added provisional issue o)
Removed some queries

Changelog 4a+
Updated 20) More information
Updated 56) More information
Updated 72) More information
Updated 47) More information
Updated 45) More information
Updated 23) More information
Added issue 73)
Added issue 74)
Added issue 77)
Escalated 2 no. Provisional issues to issues 75) and 76)
Added 6 no. Provisional issues
Added Player help/information section.

Changelog 4
Added an issue 72)
Removed issue 23) - see 29)
Issue 25) is now combined with issue 37)
Added link - issue 6)
Added note - issue 25)
Added 6 no. provisional issues
Updated 23) - more information.
Updated 23) - Partial workaround.

Changelog 3e-3f
Moved a provisional issue to confirmed issue 71)
Added 2 Provisional issues – Crew recruitment problems and Default Ensigns missing
More information added to 29) The deck gun and AA gun can be repaired but only when crewed.

Changelog 3d-3e
Added “Query” section at end – NEED FEEDBACK!!
Issue 11) has been removed.. Issue 31) provides more detailed information.
Issue 63) removed.
Updated 6), 14), 29), 30), 31) 35) 46) and 69) with additional information
Added possible mod fix for 2)
Item 27) and 37) wording changed.
Moved a provisional item to confirmed issue 69)
Added 1 provisional item
Added issue 70)

Changelog 3c-3d
4 more bugs added 65) 66) 67) & 68)
Provisional bug escalated
Severity of item 34) changed.

Changelog 3b – 3c
5 more bugs added 60), 61) 62) 63) & 64)
Improved readability.
Added comment on 23)
Modified comment on 34)
More supporting information added to 36)
Added provisional bug section

Changelog 3 – 3b:
More information given
Additional issues 58, 59 added
Struck through the more dubious bugs or where there is little or no confirmation
Reduced duplication.
Moved comments and added square brackets for readability.

Please note:
Most bugs listed here have been mentioned by more than one poster.
Known protection bugs have not been listed nor have probable hardware/driver issues.
There may be duplicates.
The list is not ordered
I have not experienced all the bugs listed.


1) When crossing the International Date Line from Pearl to Japan the attack screen bug still happens. No Torpedo tracking once you cross the line.
The following provides a workaround/fix: - credit to - Ducimus
At the top of your data/UPCData/UPCCampaignData/flotillas.upc file you should see the departure co-ordinates for Pearl Harbor. Change the DepartureDescriptionOut1 to the following:
DepartureDescriptionOut1= 21438780, 3367405, 270.000000

2) Radar still doesn't work when heading South 90deg to 270deg.
[There is a possible mod workaround and more information for this issue here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=508289#post508289 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=508289#post508289) ]

3) I noticed a minor rendering issue with 1.2: Seems the TBT view doesn’t scale to the resolution when not using 1024x768. There is a little part on top showing the scene behind the screen in 1280x1024. The bearing display is wrong, too.
[There is an error in the TBT section of the menu file. Mod fix for widescreen users here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112400 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112400) ]

4) Ship dimensions are still faulty = incorrect firing data (range) for TDC for some ships.

5) Removed.

6) Patch 1.2, After installing the new patch the DD's don’t often use their searchlights anymore (since 1.1)!
[Confirmed in several posts.]
[One user has posted that there is an “on/off” problem with the searchlights, he found the switching off volumetric fog fixed the problem.]
See also 23)
Kakemann in this thread appears to have a full description of the issue which basically involves weather rather then time of day:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=520452&postcount=1 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=520452&postcount=1)

7) Removed.

8) Chronometer still doesn’t work as described in the manual. “The Chronometer bug”

9) White outline along the hull of the sub when looking down through the external camera. Very noticeable on railings if sub is submerged to conning tower.

10) Sun shines still through objects, now even with full intensity.

11) Removed.

12) Removed.

13) Removed

14) Dive planes don’t even come down anymore after a few dives and surfaces. Halfway through a patrol the bow planes look inverted and refuse to move.
[Dragon – not seen this, Subman1 – not seen this.]
[This is probably linked to issue 70) saving the game when submerged]

15) Many users report CTD errors, in the navmap, after ending a patrol etc.
[Dragon – no CTD since fresh install V1.2]

16) I've got a merchant here; that I put a torpedo into, stopping it's engines, but it still continues on at about 4 knts, despite a heavy list to Starboard.
[There is confusion on this issue. It is difficult to say whether there is a problem with this or not]

17) Sounds are still coming from a 180 degree wrong direction. Situation awareness suffers when submerged and evading escorts.
[Apparently this is a bug in SH3 too.]

18) Combined with 14.)

19) Can someone confirm if the SD radar is indeed fixed? As far as I can tell it is still detecting ships but now it does not detect aircraft at all. I just got bombed by a couple flying boats while I sat there watching the SD radar in different ranges and they did not show up at all. With the S-18 sub it doesn’t turn on.
[Feature request – more realistic radar. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112950 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112950) ]
[Possible mod workaround/more information here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=508289#post508289 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=508289#post508289) ]

20) Hydrophones still do not work at periscope depth.
Jungman wrote:
Change a value -9 to -4 inside Sensors_sub_US.sim the MaxSensorHeight of the hydrophones. Now you can hear it yourself and your crew. This allows it to work in more shallow water. See various threads. Easy fix. Some changed it less, some changed all three ocurrances.
See Documis FTT Mod for an exact answer to what works best all around for all submarines. They have different sizes. Never proven if devs wanted this as a feature, or IRL you could use Hyrophones at shallow depth. After all, the Escorts hunting you use them on the surface. We agreee you should be able to use them at periscope depth.
Bane pointed out that the hydrophones on a Gar class boat seem to work correctly at periscope depth, although the range seemed short.

21) Sound bugs still present with "Realistic Sound Travel" enabled (e.g., popping sounds when firing AA guns, explosion sounds cut off, slight delay in deck gun sound, etc..

22) We now have approx a 9.7X Magnification attack scope. (Should be 6X)

23) All AI needs tweaking, too often ships all come to a stop and muddle around. Destroyers guarding merchants and especially in task forces seem somewhat uninterested in firing back – see this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112904 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112904) and this http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112853 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112853)
Another reference to the same problem here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/6101003455?r=9721025455#9721025455 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/6101003455?r=9721025455#9721025455)
Another here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/2721069455 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/2721069455)
[I personally wonder if the problem is to do with overly sensitive friendly fire tests by the AI. Tater queried whether poor weather conditions play a part]
Early war AI doesn’t see the periscope very often, At night searchlights don’t lock on – feature or bug?
There is a partial workaround mod for “lazy destroyers” however the author suggests that there is a hard coded problem:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113232 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113232)
Updated version of Kakemann’s mod here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=517755#post517755 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=517755#post517755)
AI in ports, for example if a ship Japanese ship is torpedoed is also very passive.

24) Neat mechanical ticking sound when using the TDC is gone. Bring it back.

25) Combined with issue 37)

26) Combined with 8)

27) Widescreen users get a cropped rather than expanded image. TBT & periscope scaling bitmap masks appear to be inaccurate – does this break the ability to manual launch torpedos?
[see also 3) ]

28) Save game issues:
NOTE: With patch 1.2 it is suggested that players save the game only when on the surface and not near enemy shipping.
External viewable damage to subs vanishes on a savegame load. Speed settings and other settings not remembered, crew asleep when they weren’t before, fatigued crew. One player has mentioned that the radio repeats news reports and events from the start of the patrol including log entries.
Saving the game when underwater is problematic and not recommended. There is a confirmed issue that a reload of an underwater save results in the dive planes being reversed.

29) The deck and AA guns cannot be completely repaired by damage crew. The final 1% of the repair can only be done when the weapon is crewed. This explains the odd post where someone would claim that the deck gun in particular had been repaired. The length of time required to repair the remaining 1% seems out of proportion.

30) There is no obvious visual way to ascertain true damage to the sub.
[This based on the assumption that there is hidden damage done to the sub which is only repairable with a refit]

31) Transparency problems: The ghost crew issue - crew are slightly transparent all the time with full settings and very transparent in fog. The conning tower is transparent or semi transparent when using the periscope. Note that the crew transparency issue at least is true even if the new volumetric fog option is unchecked.

32) Anomalies with torpedo damage... may be a "feature". Example 8 torpedoes + deck gun shots sink a merchant, 5 deck gun shots or less to destroy a destroyer. Stuck torpedo outside sub – mentioned by Subman1?

33) Feature request: Buttons still missing like weather, rank, how long distance at this speed, id target.

34) “The Message log delay problem.”
[There is at least one mod for this and a user can select messages sent as default rather than show all messages. The majority of people say that the delay is now small 1-2 secs]

35) The sub not responding to waves correctly especially in rough seas “Sub on rails”. The wake behind the sub and other ships, especially in rough seas, floats above the waves and therefore looks like it’s in the wrong place.

36) Possible problem with torpedo detonation choices. Some users report they are reversed, Akdavis – Magnetic detonators do not work. Also the detonation type chosen resets. Akdavis mentions:
“Something is fundamentally wrong with torpedoes and/or ship hit boxes. Magnetic influence setting seems to have no real effect. Both settings yield identical results.”
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112193&page=15 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112193&page=15)

37) Feature request - Please provide the ability to open all tube doors with sound effect.
[There is a mod which does fix/workaround his issue]

38) Fix the radar and sonar.
[There may be a mod fix for this.. ]

39) Campaign retirement – feature or bug? Suggestion that it should be optional.

40) Aircraft. the skies are full of them! Far too many attacks.
[There is a workaround for this in the subsim mods forum.]

41) Aircraft flight model – Collide with mountains rather easily and there is a tendency for them to swoop rather low during attack runs.

42) Graphical flashes on the ocean.

43) Rotating hydrophone doesn’t do a full rotation and it doesn’t rotate underwater?

44) You can’t click on crew members to go to their station – like you could in SH3.

45) Crew sometimes don’t seem to verbally acknowledge orders.
Sound man does not call out when a depth charge is dropped in the water.
Sound man does not report when a destroyer is pinging the sub.

46) Clouds are far too speedy. Also clouds sometimes don’t slow down when dropping out of accelerated time.
[Possible Mod fix for this.]

47) Pilot bailouts are reported as merchant contacts, as are lifeboats.
Note: Sampans, life boats and even downed pilots are picked up as contacts by the hydrophone. None of these have engines, needs fixing.
In addition it appears that surface radar picks up Sampans which shouldn’t be radar reflective?

48) Sound for lifeboats rubbing against sub sound like a destroyer hitting the sub.

49) Pencil on Navmap doesn’t allow note entry

50) AA gun crew can get injured even when not at the AA gun if the AA gun gets damaged.

51) Repetitive patrols still get assigned.
[There is some discussion as to whether this is due to having infinite fuel on]
One user reports here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=520431&postcount=417 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=520431&postcount=417) that he still had repetitive missions without infinite fuel on.

52) Patrols do not suggest how long you need to stay on station unlike SH3.

54) The AA gun view is often blocked by conning tower walls.

55) Chronometer pops up after 256 time compression for no apparent reason.

56) A number of users report that despite owning the game they are experiencing the protection system “bugs”. Many users report crewmembers eyes vanish.
Many users report the striped map problem, screenshot here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=504941&postcount=1 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=504941&postcount=1)
[I own the game, do not use any no-cd or other anti-protection systems and have seen the missing eyes issue]

57) Is the Torpedo depth gauge running in metric when imperial settings are used?.
[Users report that assuming the TDC is running in metric allows them to hit on target\]

58) Graphics – the rev counters don’t work.

59) Torpedoes are not automatically loaded at base nor is there a reminder.

60) There appears to be some problem with the crew using certain deck guns especially when switching from aft to fore – no slots for crew.
[Not verified although I have seen this mentioned more than once]
Confirmation screenshot here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=525401&postcount=447 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=525401&postcount=447) although this shows an inability to man either deck gun with dual deck guns.

61) A few people have mentioned that they sometimes can’t end a patrol latest here although tycho102 was using a mod http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112193&page=15 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112193&page=15)
[It is possible that their home port has been moved without them noticing]
Some users mention that there is no notification that their home port has been changed.

62) Radio messages can be received underwater.

63) Removed.

64) Some shipping does not stop following loss of all props & rudder.

65) Patrol Log book appears to contain internal games names for ships sunk rather than “Medium Old Tanker” etc..

66) Log book does not track items correctly – all ships sunk at the same time and date for example.

67) When SD radar fitted there is no A scope display – confirmed.

68) Air search radar on Japanese ships is detecting surface targets including the sub arising in unrealistic sub detection in the early war period 1942-43. More here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112994 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112994), http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112684 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112684)

69) Watch officer sometimes freezes up with arms outstretched – confirmed by another user. Picture here:
[ http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=512457#post512457%5D (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=512457#post512457%5D) ]

70) Combined with 28)

71) Confirmed issue: A damage only crew can be recruited at port allowing for more than the historical maximum number of personnel on board.

72) Confirmed issue: Deck and AA guns problems:
With crew assigned to the deck or AA guns they will fire at any target regardless of the weather conditions (Note that it isn’t always possible to get the crew to man the deck gun in rough seas).
The player can fire the deck and AA guns manually without an assigned crew.
Regardless of weather conditions AND regardless of whether the desk or AA guns have crew assigned the player is able to manually fire. According to the file for each boat the maximum wind speed allowed is 7m/s.

73) Some ship weapons are unable to fire:
The Subchaser is unable to fire its main gun at all. If you mod the Subchaser to have a second gun in a raised position where the AA gun is it will fire this gun.
The Akizuki DD has a similar issue, of the four guns it has only the two guns on the raised platforms actually fire.

74) It is well known that CTRL+N resets the weather – feature or bug?

75) Egan reports an issue where the destruction/damage of the rear dive plane transmission actually affects the rudder. The sub is still able to dive (at the same speed) but not turn.Issue confirmed by Bane.

76) Crew port recruitment issues: No CPOs with command specialization are listed/recruitable, no junior petty officers with guns specialization are listed/recruitable, no seaman apprentices are listed/recruitable.

77) The follow nearest contact button doesn’t light up when selected although the sonar man does follow the contact.

78) Unless the deck and AA guns are manned there is no way to tell what the ammo reserves actually are.

79) There isn’t any obvious way to tell the gun crews what ammo they should be using.



Provisional not included, need confirmation:

a) There should be Ensigns by default with the boat’s starting crew. The only Ensign on board is in the 1st watch sensors compartment.

b) Rudder not shown on damage screen, is it possible for it to be destroyed without notification?

c) Planes are too easily destroyed.. Possibly true but their numbers are so great they need to be!

d) It is common to see torpedoes blowing up early – is this a feature? Comments so far are that this is realistic but the torpedoes which do blow up are not reported as duds.

e) Crewmember’s head through roof! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=514202&postcount=335 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=514202&postcount=335)

f) S-class boat: The left hand dive operator animation shows the operator turning the wheel, the right hand dive operator’s wheel I stuck!

g) The main or observation periscope does not rotate in external view, always points forward.

h) 1280x720 resolution is not available/doesn’t work.

i) There is no visible crew on the deck of the Coastal Composite Freighter and the Small Split Freighter

j) The bridge compass on the Gar class and possibly other subs if off by 90 degrees.

k) The radar defaults to focus mode when the player moves to one of the displays.

l) Some boats have no second man at the right hand dive planes station but rather somewhere else in the station. The slot gets filled only when battlestations is selected.
Gar class boat left dive plane indicator points to dive when surfacing, right hand indicator mirrors so it points to nothing.
Gar class boat – crewman MAY rotate the wheels the wrong way.

m) If you leave the AA gun stations as the boat goes underwater the crew can be seen manning the AA gun underwater from the external view.

n) Surface radar sweeps only at up to around 8x time compression (may be system dependent) at higher speeds the radar turns off.

o) Event camera, when showing the sub being attacked by planes, often shows the sub 90 degrees from it’s own wake or sticking up out of the water before everything pops back into position.


Query:

If anyone knows of any workarounds or mods which fix any of the issues above please provide links and I’ll include them in the next (exciting instalment)


Player help/Information:

Many users report that they have CTDs with patch 1.2. Many, but not all, of these users have found that the following steps have helped to removed the CTDs (myself included)
1. Uninstall SH4 using the uninstaller.
2. Check to see whether the SH4 game folder still exists, if it does delete it.
3. Completely delete the SH4 user folder here C:\Documents and Settings\yourname\My Documents\SH4.
4. Reinstall SH4. Do not run it.
5. Apply only patch 1.2, if the CTD still persists go back to step 1 and try 1.1 patch followed by 1.2.

Running the game with a NOCD crack is KNOWN to cause issues! Even if the game appears to work flawlessly you will almost certainly get issues like, striped nav maps, 2d crewmembers, headless bodies, inability to launch torpedoes at random times, problems with crash diving and keyboard shortcuts. Note to Devs - there is still a probable issue with protection kicking in for clean players.

There is an explanation of crew efficiency by a developer here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=514823&postcount=4 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=514823&postcount=4)

Thanks for the PMs of support peeps, you know who you are ;)

I need confirmation of the remaining provisional issues so that they can be either removed or escalated
This was enough to put me off, and if the devs can fix the hard coded problems in the list it would be a miracle!!:nope:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

i have SHIV but i dont understand it... i cant plot courses like SHIII, i cant talk to my crew (like SH3), and most importend i dont understand the button thingy's.

i played it once (and crashed into other ships) but then i threw it by my other games (the not to be played anymore games).

if they can make those thing like SHIII i would love to play it

[Happy Times]

Seems i might never open the game when it comes..:o

[Kataki]

Give it an ubaised chance Happy Times and you just might enjoy it :)

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

if your not having a dinsdale expirience like i did :rotfl:

the only good thing SHIV has is the graphics.

[Ducimus]

The bugs present really arent as determental as some people make them out to be, at leastt i dont think so, but then again i have a high tolerance for that sort of thing. If something in the game bugs me, i try and find some sort of workaround. *sigh* speaking of which, now that im home from work.... time to uhh.. get back to work.

I have two jobs. One pays me, the other is umm... i dunno.. fixing of pet peeves. :roll:

[Umfuld]

Just reading about it there are some things that interest me about IV (the list that Ducimus made for instance), and I might buy it if I ever supe up my PC.


But I don't like hearing about all the bugs. If anything when you are doing a franchise there should be LESS bugs with each installment.

I get the sense that someone at UBI looked at their projected profit margin and decided they needed an influx of cash so they released a game that wasn't ready.
(Maybe the thinking that people would do the work themselves to fix everything for free :down: )

That puts me off a bit.


And for what it's worth I saw Das Boot after I started playing SHIII (besides seeing it 20 years prior that is).

When Mike Myers called the History Channel the World War II channel in Wayne's World he wasn't kidding. And most of the shows are about the Nazis. Americans seem obsessed with Germany in WWII (Ha - as I type this an ad just came on PBS for Hitler's Sunken Secret).

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

the americans are wierd... they hate nazi's and dislike what they have done (and so on) but they actualy look at documentairs of the nazi's and hitler.....:doh:

but anyway....
my opinion on SHIV's subs is... WIERD

[joea]

I'm not a massive fan of the Pacific Theatre as a basis for sub sims (or should that be Theater? :D ), I think that the Atlantic sub battle was simply more interesting, but it should come as no surprise that many (particularly) Americans will prefer a Pacific campaign, and I daresay they will think the Atlantic sub battle was the boring one.



Sorry I disagree, I know 3 Canadians (one who was born in Russia) a Greek and a German among our members who play mostly SHIV. The only boring subs in WWII were the Swiss. :arrgh!:

[joea]

A lot of people have no problems with it and there are already mods, I see you didn't even try patch 1.2 so how do you know it is unplayable??? :shifty:
Well Joea, it could be because of this:

This was enough to put me off, and if the devs can fix the hard coded problems in the list it would be a miracle!!:nope:

Come on man, I'd love to see and when I get off work maybe dig up some of the SH3 bug lists...though I agree the game was published too early. I can affirm a fair number of those are not bugs just reported...many are due to new users not knowing how sub sims work etc.

[Reece]

As I said Joea, I didn't return it as I am hopefull that the game in the, hopefully near, future will be fixed, to something close to SHIII's 1.04b patch.:yep:
SHIII had nowhere near the bugs found in SHIV, if I had to guess I'd say that they built SHIV on the SHIII 1.0 engine!:-?
I really am quite nervous, since most of the dev team is new, that they can successfuly patch it, I certainly hope so!:cry:

[joea]

the americans are wierd... they hate nazi's and dislike what they have done (and so on) but they actualy look at documentairs of the nazi's and hitler.....:doh:

but anyway....
my opinion on SHIV's subs is... WIERD

Very deep. :-?


P.S. Not only Americans. :know:

[Hitman]

The bugs present really arent as determental as some people make them out to be

That's right! Admitingly, SH4 was released too early but after patch 1.2 I don't see any major bugs that really really kille the gameplay. There are things in need of fixing, like the bad conversion from metric to imperial, and the defective radar, but both have reasonably easy workarounds: Play with metrics and tweak the radar so it detects both surface and air targets. The dumb AI is something subject to opinions, some people say it is too difficult others too easy....:hmm: But the sad thing overall is how many people are actually joining the rows of those who cry "Bugged!" without ever having noticed some of those bugs while playing themselves:down:

[ReallyDedPoet]

I'm not a massive fan of the Pacific Theatre as a basis for sub sims (or should that be Theater? :D ), I think that the Atlantic sub battle was simply more interesting, but it should come as no surprise that many (particularly) Americans will prefer a Pacific campaign, and I daresay they will think the Atlantic sub battle was the boring one.


Sorry I disagree, I know 3 Canadians (one who was born in Russia) a Greek and a German among our members who play mostly SHIV. The only boring subs in WWII were the Swiss. :arrgh!:

Canadian here, I love SH3 GWX, Atlantic Theatre, but I played that game solid for close to 2 years, still playing GWX, but a change was needed, SH4 is enjoyable and with another patch, more mods, and eventually a super-mod, it will be a
great game:yep:

RDP

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

the americans are wierd... they hate nazi's and dislike what they have done (and so on) but they actualy look at documentairs of the nazi's and hitler.....:doh:

but anyway....
my opinion on SHIV's subs is... WIERD

Very deep. :-?


P.S. Not only Americans. :know:

i mean the cunning tower of those subs... they are (in a mather of speaking) 1 mile high. the german cunning towers were low.

its wierd... :doh:

[Kataki]

the americans are wierd... they hate nazi's and dislike what they have done (and so on) but they actualy look at documentairs of the nazi's and hitler.....:doh:

but anyway....
my opinion on SHIV's subs is... WIERD

Er Did this post make any sense? Learning about history is one way of making sure it doesnt happen again. If anything is wierd its how many people feel akward about playing a german sub commander and killing the brits/americans but then have no problem blowing up japanese merchants as an american sub commander ;P

@ the conning tower
Id have to agree about that, american subs do have a large conning tower but maybe thats actually better? It keeps the body of the sub deeper when they are at periscope depth so its harder to see. Heh I like the S Class boats anyway :)

On Topic:

Silent Hunter 4's Fatigue/crew management system is much better than SH3. I also like its TDC better, but thats just me.

[STEED]

Wait for a supermod to be release for SH4.

And that is what I will do, less bugs better to play a great super mod that will improve it and the cost of the game and upgrades I need will be cheaper. :smug: :smug: :smug:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

the americans are wierd... they hate nazi's and dislike what they have done (and so on) but they actualy look at documentairs of the nazi's and hitler.....:doh:

but anyway....
my opinion on SHIV's subs is... WIERD

Er Did this post make any sense? Learning about history is one way of making sure it doesnt happen again. If anything is wierd its how many people feel akward about playing a german sub commander and killing the brits/americans but then have no problem blowing up japanese merchants as an american sub commander ;P

@ the conning tower
Id have to agree about that, american subs do have a large conning tower but maybe thats actually better? It keeps the body of the sub deeper when they are at periscope depth so its harder to see. Heh I like the S Class boats anyway :)

On Topic:

Silent Hunter 4's Fatigue/crew management system is much better than SH3. I also like its TDC better, but thats just me.

mankind doesnt learn from its mistakes... look at all the war that is going on...
a good example. america invades iraq becouse they have nuclyair weapons. did they found some ? NO, what did bush want THEYR FUEl (or just world dommination)
did bush learned from the consentration camps ? yea he learned how to lock the "prissoners" or "terrorists" there and let them suffer.

@ the cunningtowers
but the large cunningtowers are bad if you are surfaced... in the dark you also get spotted faster than a german U-boat...

i gave SHIV another try... im slowly learning all those button's. :yep:
but im still used to SHIII's button's. so its a bit strange now :doh:

[joea]

@ the cunningtowers
but the large cunningtowers are bad if you are surfaced... in the dark you also get spotted faster than a german U-boat...

i gave SHIV another try... im slowly learning all those button's. :yep:
but im still used to SHIII's button's. so its a bit strange now :doh:

Well different environments, which is interesting for me. USN boats were meant to attack submerged (before the war) and preferably by sonar. Didn't work and the conning towers were cut down during the war. US boats started using radar to attack or track on the surface at night.

KM boats were supposed to attack at night on the surface, so low profile. They went to submerged attacks cause the Allies were ahead in radar and had more airpower. Interesting twist huh? :know:

I like both and wish we could drive Japanese, British and Soviet subs too.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

yea the big japanese U-boats

how many torpedo's could they carry :hmm:
they were 30m bigger than the german U-boats

[nanucq]

I play both alternatively, SH3 (GWX ) and SH4 (RFB + FTT), and i feel good :D

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

I play both alternatively, SH3 (GWX ) and SH4 (RFB + FTT), and i feel good :D

RFB ?
FTT ?

what are those ???? :huh:

[Ducimus]

Two modpacks for Sh4.

RFB = "real fleet boat" by Berry

FTT = "flavored to Taste" by Dumbass.. i mean Ducimus. I couldnt come up with a better name and i think i might rerelease it under a new name.

RE conning towers, i personally prefer them (after wartime modification to reduce silloutte ) for 3 reasons:

1.) Deeper periscope depth
2.) Lookouts are up higher, and hence, can see farther.
3.) The boat can flood down to where only its radar mast is expost, allowing it to use radar while submerged.


One thing i hate in sh4, is the periscope shears obscure your view when looking aft. Your watchcrew has a better vantage point, but you (the player) don't.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

does the FTT mod has the greyish contact collour ?
i have DL a lot of mods today and i installed them all so it could be that it a other mod.

cunning towers : i know its damn frustrating if a ship is at the other side of your tower.

i didnt spot a destroyer and... you all know what happens then... :dead: