Patrol Impressions: Career Disappointment

[rdtwendt]

I've been working on a few SH4 careers over the last several weeks, and have a couple of issues I need to discuss with the good folks here.

First, I want to express my gratitude that a game like this even exists. The development team did a great job overall and I'm looking forward to an even more polished product with future patches.

Having said that, I'm getting a bit burned out on the careers I've played. The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective, to the extent that I don't even worry about noise generation or speed at PD while shooting my way through a virtually defenseless convoy. No active sonar, no depth charges...nothing. Just search lights and idle engines. I've observed this seemingly everywhere my orders take me; in the middle of the pacific, off the coast of Japan trailing a merchant convoy, and deep inside a Japansese harbor ambushing a dock yard. Nothing ever threatens me, save the coastal guns while travelling on the surface at night. For a "realistic" subsim, this is unacceptable.

Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times to the point where I wonder if this is a bug. I've been sent to the same area 3 times in a row in one stretch, for exactly the same mission.

I'm concerned about awards too. I just finished my first mission on a brand new campaign out of Pearl in 1941. The realism is at 100%. My boat, the USS Triton, sank over 103k of warships and merchants alike, including 2 Japanese BB's, a fleet carrier, and assorted medium and small merchants. Did we receive the CMOH? Nope. Just a lesser medal that certainly didn't suit the patrol's results.

I'm sure some of these issues have been discuessed before, and if so, I apologize for repeating them. I needed to vent some frustration though, and this seemed like the right place to do it.

All comments, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated.

[Ducimus]

>>The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective

Fixed.


>>Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times

Fixed.

[rdtwendt]

A little more help would be useful. Are you referring to your mod pack?

[SteamWake]

I keep hearing these reports of brain dead escorts.

Ive seen one or two but on the most part there pretty sharp at least to me.

Maybe I just suck.

Im pretty sure Dom is referring to the mods. Check the modding forum. Oh dont forget to patch up too ')

[Ducimus]

Mods man, mods!

Check out this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108964

Lots of mods to choose from. Alternatly you can d/l and use my mod pack (link in sig), or Berrys modpack (linked in above linked thread).

[NefariousKoel]

I never had escorts do anything either. They would sail right up to and over me and I never ever heard a sonar ping much less a DC dropped in anger.

There are a few mods that adjust the escort AI. The first time I experienced sonar pings and got depth charged was with Kakemann's escort mod. There are two flavors of it.. normal and hard to choose from. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113489

It only fixes the escorts and isn't a whole mod pack which helps with the large amount of other mods I have enabled in JSGME.

[EMAPhil]

I'm surprised about the comments on useless escorts.
I have been shelled rammed and D/Cd by convoy escorts, sonar tracked and just tonight hunted by a pack of three after I had the temerity to sink one on a ramming run.

This is patch 2 unmodded played on normal. I almost wish I had your problems, I auto fire torpedos for now while I work on tactics. Never get time to set up a manual kill!!!

Phil

[AVGWarhawk]

Me too Phil, I get a mixed bag of excorts. Some are pretty good and others are just aweful. My game is unmodded.

[heartc]

I'm surprised about the comments on useless escorts.
I have been shelled rammed and D/Cd by convoy escorts, sonar tracked and just tonight hunted by a pack of three after I had the temerity to sink one on a ramming run.

This is patch 2 unmodded played on normal. I almost wish I had your problems, I auto fire torpedos for now while I work on tactics. Never get time to set up a manual kill!!!

Phil
This is not the first time I've heard something like this, and reading comments like these leaves me totally confused, because I'm one of those who experienced pretty dumb escorts kind of like, uhm, every time. So bad that when this would be the real world, that behaviour would go far beyond lack of crew experience and could only be explained with having downright mentally challenged / retarded people aboard those destroyers. Once I had the impression that one destroyer spotted my scope from pretty far out and came for me, but then he lost me again and continued sailing around lazily without seeming to have any idea of what to do next.

I'm now using Kakemann's Improved Escorts mod which helps a lot, and I'm sure Ducimus' Flavored to Taste mod is pretty much along the same lines as far as escort effectiveness is concerned. At this point, a Thanks to you guys!

But reading those occasional totally opposite comments from people who seem to use the stock version of the game makes me wonder if UBI didn't ship two different kind of batches. No sarcasm here, cause they indeed managed to do exactly that with the "Flaming Cliffs" Add-On for "Lock On - Modern Air Combat", where part of the *shipped* and *sold* Add-On DVDs were totally screwed and wouldn't even install properly. People could send them back and got re-issued a new one once this became known and acknowledged, but nonetheless, it happened, and it makes me wonder if not something along the same lines might have happened with SHIV.



On the other hand, which I hope is closer to the truth: What year are you in, Phil, when you experience those tougher escorts? Is it early, mid or late war? Cause some people suggested that while the escorts seem extraordinary dumb in early war, they become better later on.

[Bilge_Rat]

I am still playing with the stock AI, (although I am slowly integrating other mods) and they range in effectiveness from drunken circus clowns to Bungo Pete's little brother, so there is challenge even in the stock game.

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

:ahoy:

[heartc]

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

:ahoy:
Yeah, but as far as I know, Ducimus' "Bungo Pete" seperate mod only installs a single elite, highly sensitive sensors equipped destroyer escort in the Bungo Straits - "Bungo Pete". If you want an overall improved (including the Bungo Pete guy) destroyer AI made by Ducimus you need to install his Flavored to Taste mod. Or did you mean installing both together (Kakemann's and Ducimus Bungo Pete)? I think they are both modifying the same files, which might lead to cancelling each other out depending on the sequence you install them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bilge_Rat]

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

:ahoy:
Yeah, but as far as I know, Ducimus' "Bungo Pete" seperate mod only installs a single elite, highly sensitive sensors equipped destroyer escort in the Bungo Straits - "Bungo Pete". If you want an overall improved (including the Bungo Pete guy) destroyer AI made by Ducimus you need to install his Flavored to Taste mod. Or did you mean installing both together (Kakemann's and Ducimus Bungo Pete)? I think they are both modifying the same files, which might lead to cancelling each other out depending on the sequence you install them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That was more of a joke comment since currently they seem to include the deadliest AIs in the game. Ducimus released "Bungo Pete" as a separate mod also, I have not looked too closely, but the two mods dont appear to be incompatible.

Which version of Kakemenn's mod are you using? bumping up the AI is the next mod I want to try out.

[Ducimus]

The bugo pete stand alone:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114033

Is compatiable with any mod that doesnt alter the harbor traffic mis file. He only appears in the bungo straights, although you can place him in a single mission if you wanted to.


Needless to say, its already incorporated into FTT, which includes AI improvements. Even with stock AI though, this guys a bear.

[zylark]

Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me. I might be wrong, but isn't that how it is supposed to be?

That said, they could be a tad more aggressive. Unless I'm in rather shallow waters, I don't feel all that threatened. But then again, I am of the careful type. Go deep, wait for escort screen to pass, float up, pop the mirror, fire a volley, go deep and change position. Haven't failed me yet. And even saves me from the seldom but still happening boomerang fishes.

[Ducimus]

Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me.


Thats the general idea. Although if your careful all the time (which i am as well), things can get dull. I have been contemplating making the hydrophones more sensitive. But I'm afraid of making things too difficult for evasion. On the other hand, thats what thermal layers are for, but therein again, if the layers are too good, things become trivial, and were back to dull again.

[EMAPhil]

On the other hand, which I hope is closer to the truth: What year are you in, Phil, when you experience those tougher escorts? Is it early, mid or late war? Cause some people suggested that while the escorts seem extraordinary dumb in early war, they become better later on.[/quote]


Heartc: I am in early war. Second patrol, cruising off Japan out of Pearl. Last night (just for you) I surfaced about 6000 yards from a DD on a clear day to see what would happen. Within 20 seconds he was shelling me acurately. He also light signalled his mates who turned towards me. I sank!
After reload I surfaced at longer range and he saw me a bit later. I crashed dived and in a few minutes all three were heading my way. Sonar pinged me and I was D/C'd at around 350 feet.

My game was delivered from Play.com on day of UK release.

[AhhhFresh]

To me the biggest problem with escorts, and ships in general, is that they don't spot torpedo wakes. They never track you back or even try and evade at the last minute as the torpedo comes in. On a calm day or night those torpedo wakes should be a big glowing path right back to your sub.

As it is, if they didn't see or hear you fire then they have absolutely no idea where you are... and act accordingly. Slowly stalking around and trying to pick you up. Though increasing their sensors with mods has seemed to improve this, as once they are alerted they can generally pick you up unless you are very careful.

[Kant Schwimm]

Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me.


Thats the general idea. Although if your careful all the time (which i am as well), things can get dull. I have been contemplating making the hydrophones more sensitive. But I'm afraid of making things too difficult for evasion. On the other hand, thats what thermal layers are for, but therein again, if the layers are too good, things become trivial, and were back to dull again.

Noooo dont change it, I use FFT and think the AI is spot on now:up: I come home from many a patrol with my boat looking like a roll of swiss cheese:lol: and I dont think my crew are none too happy - I often hear mutterings of Pitcairn island and a plank:o

[jhelix70]

To me the biggest problem with escorts, and ships in general, is that they don't spot torpedo wakes.

I'll second that thought!

Both megamods enhance AI sensors so they're now tougher to deal with...but it is very difficult to mod AI behavior, as in how they react to certain situations. For example they don't respond at all well to surface gunfire when you are out of their visual range. And like you say, they don't respond to torp tracks. And the convoys don't respond realistically to being attacked. And...etc. etc.

[Ducimus]

Noooo dont change it, I use FFT and think the AI is spot on now:up: I come home from many a patrol with my boat looking like a roll of swiss cheese:lol: and I dont think my crew are none too happy - I often hear mutterings of Pitcairn island and a plank:o


I really don't plan to change it. What version btw? I altered it a wee bit in 2.5, but really dont want to alter it any further. Excepting visual detection, i think those still need work.

[Kant Schwimm]

Noooo dont change it, I use FFT and think the AI is spot on now:up: I come home from many a patrol with my boat looking like a roll of swiss cheese:lol: and I dont think my crew are none too happy - I often hear mutterings of Pitcairn island and a plank:o


I really don't plan to change it. What version btw? I altered it a wee bit in 2.5, but really dont want to alter it any further. Excepting visual detection, i think those still need work.

I got 2.4 at the mo, just waiting to finish patrol before I DL 2.5:up: