Why Didn't Anybody Tell Me!?

[Sailor Steve]

I would have jumped at the chance to say Happy Birthday, but nobody told me!

Tuesday, May 1, was the 300th anniversary of the Acts Of Union, Uniting England and Scotland as the Kingdom of Great Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

HAPPY BIRTHDAY UK!:rock: :sunny:

[bigboywooly]

Perhaps cos we are not all stoked about it

Hadrian had the right idea
Big wall to keep them out

:rotfl:

J\K

[STEED]

And was it on the news?

No. :nope:

Not even a word from Tony Blair. :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:

[TteFAboB]

Blimey! I was not aware either. Bloody hell...

[Sailor Steve]

The website where I get my email has a "This day in history" section. I waited because I thought someone would post about it before now.

Perhaps cos we are not all stoked about it

Hadrian had the right idea
Big wall to keep them out

:rotfl:

J\K
:rotfl:

We're talking about that now here in the U.S. Won't work for us either.

[JSLTIGER]

Blimey! I was not aware either. Bloody hell...

Now then...that's just perfect for the occasion.
:rotfl::rotfl:

[perisher]

Well I for one did take a drink. But then I again I take a drink most days.

[August]

The website where I get my email has a "This day in history" section. I waited because I thought someone would post about it before now.

Perhaps cos we are not all stoked about it

Hadrian had the right idea
Big wall to keep them out

:rotfl:

J\K :rotfl:

We're talking about that now here in the U.S. Won't work for us either.

Actually from what I read Hadrians wall worked pretty well, as long as there were Roman Legions guarding it of course.

[Letum]

We're talking about that now here in the U.S. Won't work for us either.
Actually from what I read Hadrians wall worked pretty well, as long as there were Roman Legions guarding it of course.[/quote]

IIRC hadrian's wall was the second line of defence....there was another wall further north that did the real work.

/off topic

I suppose the formation of the UK is not important to us because we consider our selves more English than British.

[waste gate]

I suppose the formation of the UK is not important to us because we consider our selves more English than British.

What is the difference between being 'more English than British'?

I was not aware of the distinction. Help me here.

EDIT: I don't use the word American when I'm speaking about the United States or its citizens. I use the term US. Is that what you mean?

I don't want to be associated with the boreing non-consequetial Canadians nor the the third world Mexicans. Is it like that between British and English?

[Letum]

I suppose the formation of the UK is not important to us because we consider our selves more English than British.
What is the difference between being 'more English than British'?

I was not aware of the distinction. Help me here.
England is a country in Great Britain.
Great Britain is a island in the British Isles.
(most of) The British Isles are Primary territories of the United Kingdom.
The United Kingdom is a country and sovereign state.
British Overseas Territories are territories of the United Kingdom out side of the British Isles.

He who comes from England is English and British.
He who comes from Scotland is Scottish and British.
He who comes from the United kingdom, but is not in the British Isles is in British Overseas Territories and may also call himself "British".
He who comes from the British Isles, but is not in the United Kingdon is Irish.

Simple, Right? ;)


*edit*

EDIT: I don't use the word American when I'm speaking about the United States or its citizens. I use the term US. Is that what you mean?

I don't want to be associated with the boreing non-consequetial Canadians nor the the third world Mexicans. Is it like that between British and English?
Close, but imagine the USA owned all of the diffrent countries in America like the UK owns (almost) all of the countrys in the British Isles.


*edit#2*
It's all about the diffrance between a country and a sovereign state. Understand that and it will all be clear.

[waste gate]

I suppose the formation of the UK is not important to us because we consider our selves more English than British.
What is the difference between being 'more English than British'?

I was not aware of the distinction. Help me here.

England is a country in Great Britain.
Great Britain is a island in the British Isles.
(most of) The British Isles are Primary territories of the United Kingdom.
The United Kingdom is a country and sovereign state.
British Overseas Territories are territories of the United Kingdom out side of the British Isles.

He who comes from England is English and British.
He who comes from Scotland is Scottish and British.
He who comes from the United kingdom, but is not in the British Isles is in British Overseas Territories and may also call himself "British".

Simple, Right? ;)

So that I might get it straight. You are a citizen of the United Kingdom, the state, but you are an Englishman by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

How many others are like you? The Scotts are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Scotts by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Irish are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Irish by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Welsh are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Welsh by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

Is this correct?

Is Canada British? Citizens of the United Kingdom?

[Letum]

[...]
[...]
[...]
So that I might get it straight. You are a citizen of the United Kingdom, the state, but you are an Englishman by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

How many others are like you? The Scotts are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Scotts by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Irish are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Irish by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Welsh are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Welsh by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

Is this correct?
Not quite. You can be born in France and have French Heritage and Culture, but still be English because you have a UK passport and live in England.
Technically it's about where your post(zip) code is, rather than your heritage.

Things also get complicated again with Ireland.
Northern Ireland is in the UK, but the Republic of Ireland is not, although it is in the British Isles.

Making ethnical distinctions is of course almost entirely subjective.


*edit*

Is Canada British? Citizens of the United Kingdom?
This is pushing my knowledge a bit. I am not sure, but I would suppose that when parts of Canada where part of the British Empire, Canadians where British.
Now they are British-Commonwealth, but not British.
The commonwealth is a whole new kettle of fish!
Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations)

[waste gate]

[...]
[...]
[...]
So that I might get it straight. You are a citizen of the United Kingdom, the state, but you are an Englishman by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

How many others are like you? The Scotts are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Scotts by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Irish are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Irish by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

The Welsh are citizens of the United Kingdom, the state, but they are Welsh by birth, heritage and culture (ie nation)?

Is this correct?
Not quite. You can be born in France and have French Heritage and Culture, but still be English because you have a UK passport and live in England.
Technically it's about where your post(zip) code is, rather than your heritage.

Things also get complicated again with Ireland.
Northern Ireland is in the UK, but the Republic of Ireland is not, although it is in the British Isles.

Making ethnical distinctions is of course almost entirely subjective.


*edit*

Is Canada British? Citizens of the United Kingdom?
This is pushing my knowledge a bit. I am not sure, but I would suppose that when parts of Canada where part of the British Empire, Canadians where British.
Now they are British-Commonwealth, but not British.
The commonwealth is a whole new kettle of fish!
Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations)

Cheese and Rice! You ought to make up a kind of flow chart. Here in the US I consider everyone a US citizen (unless they are here illegaly of course) and don't make any distinction as to their birth, heritage and culture. Much less commonwealth.

[Letum]

Cheese and Rice! You ought to make up a kind of flow chart. Here in the US I consider everyone a US citizen (unless they are here illegaly of course) and don't make any distinction as to their birth, heritage and culture. Much less commonwealth.

It's all because of Englands sectarian history. The cultures vary wildly. The Welsh language is the strongest it has been for a long time, as are English, Scottish and Welsh local, native languages. (althow I speak none of these)

[nikimcbee]

Do I need a kilt for this thread?

[waste gate]

Cheese and Rice! You ought to make up a kind of flow chart. Here in the US I consider everyone a US citizen (unless they are here illegaly of course) and don't make any distinction as to their birth, heritage and culture. Much less commonwealth.

It's all because of Englands sectarian history. The cultures vary wildly. The Welsh language is the strongest it has been for a long time, as are English, Scottish and Welsh local, native languages. (althow I speak none of these)

OK, you are English. Are there any geographical boundries (I can find the political boundries) which can be easily applied?
I don't want to insult anyone by calling them English when they are Welsh, and visa versa.

EDIT: The Duke of Wales is English? Is the Royal Family still the House of Hanover? Germans? More cheese and rice.

EDIT 2: Should I be thinking about Celts, Saxons and Normans as well? What nationality was Robin of Locksley , Arthur Pendragin, St Andrew, Richard the Lion Hearted, King John of Magna Carta fame, William the Conquerer, Mary Queen of Scotts (and the English?)?
So many questions. Perhaps I should take a class about the history of Britain from the time of Rome to present day.

[perisher]

Next month I will be visiting friends in Minnesota, I have been explaining the British Constitution to them for over 10 years now and they still don't get it. But then, we don't have a written Constitution, we make it up as we go along, and it's brilliant for trivia quizzes, for example :-

Q. "What nationality do you have to be to join the British Army?"

A. "British, or Irish, or a citizen of a Commonwealth country, or Nepalese."

[Rilder]

Happy b-day Britain, I'l have Bush send over some nuclear weapons right away! :p

[Tchocky]

The British Isles is very much a geographic and not a political term :yep:

[joea]

I don't want to be associated with the boreing non-consequetial Canadians nor the the third world Mexicans. Is it like that between British and English?
Likewise for many of us. :roll:

Oh and Happy Birthday to the UK ...

BTW, I always understood the difference similar to regional or state/provincial identity in Canada or the US. In Canada Newfoundlanders and Quebecois have a strong identity like many Southerners in the USA.

[bigboywooly]

I suppose the easiest way to liken it for those in the US in that each US state is a country - part of the United States

In that each individual "state " of Great Britain is

Except they are not " states " but countries lumped together under one flag etc etc

I find it interesting that if the Scots had their way they leave the Great Britain banner and become totally free of influence from the UK ( England )

Good luck to them

Take the Welsh with you and all will be well

:rotfl:

Then we can bin this

http://vlbi.geod.uni-bonn.de/Pics/union-jack.gif

And go back to this entirely

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/engflag.jpg

[robbo180265]

Happy birthday us:up:

This might help explain the boundry thing - scroll down to the bottom

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_United_Kingdom

[Sailor Steve]

EDIT: The Duke of Wales is English?
The Prince of Wales is an hereditary title for the heir to the throne; therefore he is definitely English.

Is the Royal Family still the House of Hanover? Germans? More cheese and rice.
The Georges (I, II, III and IV), George IV's brother William IV and William's niece Queen Victoria were Hanoverians. When Victoria married Prince Albert it was changed to his hereditary name, Saxe-Coburg und Gotha. In 1917 King George V changed the family name to Windsor, which was passed down to George VI and Queen Elizabeth II.

Elizabeth's husband is Prince Philip Mountbatten, who uses his mother's family name since he became a British citizen. I assume that will be the family name of the next king. He was born Philippos Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksberg, Prince of Greece and Denmark.

Robin of Locksley: Would have been English if he was a real person.

Arthur Pendragon: If there was a prototype he was likely a Celt of some sort.

St Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland, but he was Jewish. The younger brother of Saint Peter, he lived and died in ancient Israel.

Richard the Lion Hearted: Descended from William the Conquerer, he was a Norman - descended from Vikings, raised in what is now France. There weren't really defined countries in those days. People were known by families more than regions.

King John of Magna Carta fame: Richard's younger brother, so see above.

William the Conquerer: see Richard, above.

Mary Queen of Scots: She was the daughter of Margaret, sister of Henry VIII, and James V of Scotland, so she was Scottish and English.


So many questions. Perhaps I should take a class about the history of Britain from the time of Rome to present day.
I haven't taken any formal classes, but there are a lot of great books out there. Also more on the internet than you would think is actually good material.

[perisher]

Elizabeth's husband is Prince Philip Mountbatten, who uses his mother's family name since he became a British citizen. I assume that will be the family name of the next king. He was born Philippos Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksberg, Prince of Greece and Denmark.

Family name is now Mountbatten-Windsor (Remains House of Windsor)


Richard the Lion Hearted: Descended from William the Conquerer, he was a Norman - descended from Vikings, raised in what is now France. There weren't really defined countries in those days. People were known by families more than regions.


Richard is seen as a great hero king, but he only visited England twice in his life. First time to be crowned and to raise taxes. Second time just to raise some more taxes.

[bigboywooly]

Probably more in that one post Steve than my kids will ever learn about the subject in school :nope:

Luckily for me they share my passion for history

[JScones]

I suppose the easiest way to liken it for those in the US in that each US state is a country - part of the United States

In that each individual "state " of Great Britain is

Except they are not " states " but countries lumped together under one flag etc etc

I find it interesting that if the Scots had their way they leave the Great Britain banner and become totally free of influence from the UK ( England )

Good luck to them

Take the Welsh with you and all will be well

:rotfl:

Then we can bin this

http://vlbi.geod.uni-bonn.de/Pics/union-jack.gif

And go back to this entirely

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/engflag.jpg
You'd have to get rid of the Cross Saltire of St Patrick too, otherwise you'd still have something like

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9774/image1kw2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Although it's prolly time (big political message coming up) to adopt something like the below...

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3479/image2ux2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[bigboywooly]

Nah the Welsh dont need to be added
They can go it alone too and pay for their own free prescriptions and college fees
:rotfl:

Besides Northern Ireland doesnt have its own government sanctioned national flag now since 1972

The last it had was this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg/600px-Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg)

From 1953 to 1972
Now it uses the Union flag

[gnirtS]

I would have jumped at the chance to say Happy Birthday, but nobody told me!

Tuesday, May 1, was the 300th anniversary of the Acts Of Union, Uniting England and Scotland as the Kingdom of Great Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

HAPPY BIRTHDAY UK!:rock: :sunny:

Thats because most people in Wales and Scotland (and id guess england) aren't happy with it and dont want it.
Scottish nationalists won control of the scottish parliament this week - that should hint at something!

[Nostromo]

Well it was SNP or Labour, I was myself talking to a Scot about its possible seccession, he said its the worst thing that could happen to Scotland, and frankly I agree. Where would the scots wear their kilts if not in the British Army?:up:

[gnirtS]

SNP now have a mandate to pull scotland further away from england and best of luck to them. I dont know of any scots personally that are happy with the union.

Similar situation in wales really. Everyone wants away from the london-centric rule.

[TteFAboB]

About Wales and the Union Jack, when one was created the other didn't existed: http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_nt1.asp?d=4&i=41136&L1=41127&L2=41136&a=28728

[robbo180265]

About Wales and the Union Jack, when one was created the other didn't existed: http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_nt1.asp?d=4&i=41136&L1=41127&L2=41136&a=28728

Interesting, I didn't know that.

[macstu23]

About Wales and the Union Jack, when one was created the other didn't existed: http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_nt1.asp?d=4&i=41136&L1=41127&L2=41136&a=28728
Interesting, I didn't know that.

The difference being, Wales was never a recognised Kingdom, but a Duchy. Scotland on the other hand was officially recognised by England as a Kingdom after the Treaty of Northampton in 1328 (Shortly before King Robert the Bruce died) despite Scotlands kingdom being older than Englands, it still took them the best part of 400 years to catch on to the idea.

The SNP did win themselves a marginal majority after our recent shambolic elections, thanks to some dis-illusioned ex-Labour voters who will never on, pain of death, vote Tory, thankfully. However, they will have a tough time getting any major move toward full idependence through the Scottish Parliament with their majority of one seat. Another problem is, as far as I know, the SNP still hasn't been able to answer certain fundamental questions concerning what happens to our infrastructure should the divorce go ahead. Do we really expect to retain an intact National Health Service, a Welfare State (God knows we needed that during the Tory years) or our Armed Forces ? I fear not.

You'll hear English people claiming that their taxes support Scotlands economy and you'll hear Scottish people claiming that England consistantly shafts Scotland when it comes to us having what they want (Oil, Water etc) but the truth is, it works both ways and always has. We need each other, like it or not. In my humble opinion (and not just mine, plenty others too) a break-up would be disastrous, not just for Scotland but for the UK as a whole. Lets face it, Britain didn't become Great till after the marriage took place.

Unity is strength, division is death...and besides, I like mushy peas and gravy with my haggis supper.