Soviet War Memorial in Estonia

[Heibges]

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6611515.stm

Russian MPs have paid their respects at the controversial monument of a Soviet soldier - moved to a new location after riots in the Estonian capital Tallinn.

The statue was re-erected on Monday at a military cemetery in Tallinn, away from the city centre.

Estonia has protested over what it calls a blockade of its Moscow embassy.

The Estonian ambassador to Russia, Marina Kaljurand, told the BBC's Europe Today programme that up to 500 young people had been "shouting, committing vandalism, writing on the walls of the embassy, throwing stones".

In a separate interview she complained that Moscow police "shrug their shoulders and say that the situation is not under their control".

Emotional anniversary
Estonia's decision to remove the statue of a Red Army soldier sparked riots last week. One Russian died and 153 were injured in the unrest.

Estonians say the soldier symbolised Soviet occupation. Russians describe it as a tribute to those who fought the Nazis.

A member of the Duma delegation, Leonid Slutsky, said the Estonian foreign ministry had told the Russian MPs that "members of the public must not attend the exhumation of Soviet soldiers' remains".

"This really blasphemous, inexplicable behaviour by the Estonian authorities won't help the efforts to find mutual understanding," Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.
Tensions have escalated ahead of the World War II Victory Day anniversary on 9 May.

The anniversary is traditionally a day of patriotism and pride for many Russians.

He said Estonia had dismantled the Soviet memorial "in the most barbaric way".
More than a quarter of Estonia's 1.3m people are ethnically Russian, and speak Russian.



As an old Cold Warrior, I can't help but take the Estonians side on this one.

[Yahoshua]

I agree with the Estonians so far as moving the statue, but let the dead lie where they are.

[August]

I agree with the Estonians so far as moving the statue, but let the dead lie where they are.

Wouldn't that depend on what the old site is going to be used for? I think it'd be more respectful to move the graves to a military cemetary rather than leave them under a shopping mall or something like that.

[Yahoshua]

Then in that case it would be better to leave the graves where they are and to build a new commercial center elsewhere. Eventually the new commercial center would become the city center, ending the issue for the most part.

If the land was absolutely planned out for development, then go ahead and move the graves. I'd prefer that over building a shopping center over the graves.

[kurtz]

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6611515.stm

Estonia has protested over what it calls a blockade of its Moscow embassy.
The Estonian ambassador to Russia, Marina Kaljurand, told the BBC's Europe Today programme that up to 500 young people had been "shouting, committing vandalism, writing on the walls of the embassy, throwing stones".
She said their actions meant the embassy "is not secure". The embassies of fellow EU states had voiced support for the Estonian diplomats, she said.

In a separate interview she complained that Moscow police "shrug their shoulders and say that the situation is not under their control".



Heard of these 'young people' before a similar bunch chase the British ambassador about and the police can't do anything about them either. Seems the Russians and Iranians have more than a few things in common.

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.

[August]

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.

Which says a lot for the Estonians IMO. They're moving both graves and monument to a military cemetary showing a lot more respect for enemy dead than the Russians ever displayed to their enemies.

[joea]

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

[kurtz]

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

[joea]

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

True that was pretty unsavoury, but then Adolph and Joe both knew they would come to blows sooner or later, they were trying to buy time...not that it mattered to the Baltic Republics or Poles. Then too, many in the West were rather favourable to the Nazis...including in the UK as well as France.

[XabbaRus]

Hmmm, there was a better way this could have been done. And the timing of the removal of the monument I believe is entirely deliberate in order to provoke the Russian population who however they got there make up 25% of the population. They could have waited until after the 9th of May.

Also talk about pot calling kettle black. Do they tell you that there is active discrimination going on in Estonia towards ethnically Russians who live there. They can't get citizenship, they are excluded from various benefits. Many have also been removed from their homes in favour of ethnic Estonians. They don't mention that, and yet the Estonian government was accepted into the EU even though this discrimination is evident and documented and the government has the temerity to announce that effectively Russia is attacking the EU.

It is made to sound so simple on the BBC website, poor Estonians, bad naught nasty Russians.

Also do they ever mention the 22 concentration camps on Estonian soil during the war run by Estonians none the less or that fewer 12 Estonian Jews are thought to have survived the war in Estonia. This isn't mentioned.

Oh there has been an apology and a monument but still WWII, Russians bad, bad.

I would also like to refer you to this article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2054299,00.html

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.

Seriously guys, dig deeper and read the other side why the Russians are upset, both those in Estonia and out.

Then again I get the feeling that few will have sympathy for the Russians in Estonia and dismiss the discrimination claims as propoganda.

[The Avon Lady]

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.
Perhaps he was dressing up as Prince Harry? :hmm:

[Heibges]

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

[XabbaRus]

Ah if only things were that simple.

[joea]

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

Ok hating Russia (the big bear next door) fine, but hating Jews and helping exterminate them was ok cause Russia/the Soviet Union oppressed you???

[Dowly]

Stalin had just killed ~20mil people before the war started. Who would feel comfortable as his allie? :p

And what comes to the graves of the soviet soldiers, I couldnt care less what happened to them. The soviet government didnt care (We had to bury most of the soviet soldiers whom died on finnish soil), so why would I?

[Heibges]

Two seperate issues, but two issues with a little synergy.

Jews were the traditional enemy in Eastern Europe: western Russia and Poland.

Except for in France during the Dreyfus Affair, anti-Semitism was much more open in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe.

There were frequent "pogroms" against the Jews.

There was a Russian conservative politician, who had called for a pogrom in 1990.

OT: In the greatest irony of all, Germany is probably the only country that ever welcomed Eastern European Jews, and before Hitler, German Jews were almost totally assimilated.

[XabbaRus]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

What about the Russians who live in Estonia by dint of being born there? Did they not deserve citizenship when Estonia became independent.

It is like Scotland became independent but English people who have lived in Scotland for a long time or were born there are suddenly deemed non citizens unless they have to jump through hoops to get it even if they have a home and work there.

Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.

[Happy Times]

Ah if only things were that simple.

This conflict is simple. Estonia is a sovereign nation that can do anything it wants with its monuments, period. The fact is that Estonia was occupied by Soviet Union but Russia doesnt admit to this fact. It pisses me of to see Russians in Estonia rioting and yelling "Rossia"! Are they maybe living in the wrong country if they feel like that? Russia is also wageing a huge disinformation campaign through the media, A la FSB.
I am a frequent visitor to Estonia, i have an Estonian gf and the town i live in has a large Estonian minority. My experience with Estonias ethnic Russians is that most of them live in the past, they are bitter that they are not in power anymore. Some even refuse to learn Estonian, hence not having citizenship.. I believe big reason is the state controlled Russian media, that they mainly follow, that manipulates them a lot.
The attacks on Estonias internet connections and ambassadors of Estonia and Sweden happened with Putins blessing, we all know it.
The thing that pissed the Finns on a big scale in this conflict was when Russia said Finland should give special status guranteed by law to the 50.000 Russians living in Finland. They have lived here for something like 10-15 years!! And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO. Emotions and hatred are building up in the Baltic region, people talk about violent acts towards the Russians. Most think the Russians have gone too far and want to hear apologies but we know that will never happen. Maybe other EU and NATO countries should start to wake up on this situation by now, before it goes any futher.

[Happy Times]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

[Dowly]

And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO.

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think? :shifty:

[The Avon Lady]

What about the Russians who live in Estonia by dint of being born there? Did they not deserve citizenship when Estonia became independent.
Why do you assume so? See the meaning of Jus Sanguinis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis). Same could be true of England and Scotland, if and when.
Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.
You cannot compare. Jews were constantly harrassed throughout the centuries in Russia.

In contrast, in Germany, in the latter half of the 19th century, once European emancipation got even Germany to drop its mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts, opportunities that never existed before opened up throughout much of Germany, in spite of the continuing loathing of Jews by so many Germans.

[Happy Times]

Facts about Estonia in WWII


8 May: Memorial Day for the victims of World War II
03 May 2007

By its resolution of 22 November 2004, the United Nations General Assembly declared 8 and 9 May as a time of remembrance and reconciliation, and invited Member States, United Nations bodies, non-governmental organizations and individuals to observe annually either one or both of those days in an appropriate manner, to pay tribute to all those who lost their lives in the Second World War. Estonia also supported this resolution.

The Republic of Estonia did not participate in World War II as an independent state. The secret pre-war agreement (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) signed between fascist Germany and communist Russia resulted in the annexation of Estonia and the other Baltic States by the Red Army as well as the forced incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union. From 1941-1944, Estonia was the field for battles between Germany and the Soviet Union. The occupation regimes changed several times. Estonian citizens were forced to participate in war activities by the two occupying regimes, Germany and the Soviet Union.
In serious violation of the international law of war, Estonian soldiers were conscripted to fight in the forces of both occupiers.

Thus, we can say that World War II began for Estonia in 1940 with the occupation by the Red Army and the end of the war came in 1991 with the restoration of Estonian independence followed by the withdrawal of the last foreign military troops from Estonia in 1994. Western countries including the United States, the United Kingdom and France never recognised the occupation of the Republic of Estonia.

In Europe and the United States, 8 May is celebrated as the end of World War II. In Estonia, 8 May will be celebrated as a day of remembrance for those who fell in World War II as well as for the victims of the repressions and crimes committed by the occupiers.


Estonia and World War II – Facts
The Estonian Government declared its complete neutrality at the beginning of World War II.

The Soviet Union occupied Estonia in 1940. The aggression was based on the secret pre-war agreement (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) signed between the Soviet Union and Germany. The pact distributed European countries between the two occupiers. Allied Hitler and Stalin divided up half of Europe.

After the occupation of Estonia, World War II battles made their way back to Estonia in June 1941 with former allies Germany and the Soviet Union fighting each other. During these battles from July-October 1941, Estonia became completely occupied by Hitler’s German forces.

Using the political situation, as German forces were withdrawing and Soviet forces had not yet reoccupied the country, acting Estonian President Jüri Uluots, operating underground, appointed a new government led by Otto Tief on 18 September 1944. This was a heroic attempt at restoring Estonian independence, which was not recognised by Germany or by the Soviet Union who was reoccupying Estonia.

In 1944, the Soviet Union reoccupied Estonia, but not without an attempt being made at restoring Estonian independence. The vacuum created by one occupying force leaving and the other arriving gave the opportunity to raise the Estonian tricolour and make a restoration attempt.

The second Soviet occupation ended in 1991 with the restoration of Estonian independence and the last foreign military forces left Estonia in 1994.

Estonian citizens in foreign military forces
Violating international law, the Soviet Union forced Estonian soldiers including conscripts to serve in the occupying military forces. At the same time, practically the entire officer corps was murdered. During the war with Germany, more than 33 000 Estonian citizens were "mobilised" to other parts of the Soviet Union, where the majority were placed into work camps serving in the prison camp system. At least one-third died in the first year of imprisonment due to starvation, disease and strenuous work requirements. In 1942, the Red Army 8th Rifle Corps was formed consisting of the survivors and other Estonians who had lived in the Soviet Union prior to World War II.

Until 1943, no Estonian citizens had been mobilised into the occupying German military forces. This was based on Nazi ideology (since Estonians were not considered to be "pure" Aryans, they were not trustworthy). Using the anger that had grown among Estonians, because of the repressions and sufferings caused by the Soviet occupants, a small amount of volunteers were recruited. These men served to a limited extent on the war front or were responsible for protecting the rear.

When the situation on the eastern front became critical for the Germans, several forced recruitments and mobilisations took place throughout the Estonia territory from 1943-1944. The mobilised Estonians were not taken into the German National Army, the Wehrmacht, but were rather mobilised into security and attack units including Waffen SS units. The mobilisation of citizens of occupied territories is prohibited by the international law of war. Thus, the Germans attempted to hide this by presenting the mobilised men as volunteers in military auxiliary services (allowed by the international law of war) or as volunteers in the Estonian Legion. However, what occurred was clearly the mobilisation of an occupied territory’s citizens into foreign military forces. All together, up to 70 000 Estonian citizens were mobilised on Estonian territory into various units.

In the beginning of 1944, Estonia’s underground National Committee and its constitutional Prime Minister acting as President Jüri Uluots called upon Estonians not to avoid the mobilisation irrespective of the fact that the mobilisation was in violation of international law. They saw that with German weapons they could create a National Army and by that prevent a new Soviet occupation and restore Estonia’s independence. Despite Germany’s refusal to recognise the restoration of Estonia’s independence, there was hope that by not fighting the mobilisation a new occupation could be avoided – it was not doubted that Germany would lose the war. Estonian patriots were convinced that the organisation of post-war Europe would be based on the principles of the 1941 Atlantic Charter*

From 1943-1944, approximately 3 400 Estonians escaped to Finland and joined the Finnish Army to avoid the German mobilisation. Half of them returned to Estonia in 1944 to support with arms the Estonian attempt to restore independence.

After reoccupying Estonia in the autumn of 1944, the Soviet forces continued the mobilisation of Estonian citizens.

Over 100 000 Estonian citizens, representing close to 10% of the population, were mobilised by the two occupants during World War II. The Stalin regime did not recognise any of the principles of the Atlantic Charter. The occupation continued after World War II and was accompanied by genocide. In 1949, tens of thousands of Estonians were deported from their homes to Siberia.

The forced enlistment of Estonians into the military forces of the occupying regime continued until Estonia’s restoration of independence in 1991.

Estonian casualties of World War II
The Estonian population in October 1939 was 1 130 000 people.

At the end of 1945, approximately 900 000 people lived in Estonia. Thus, Estonia had lost one-fifth of its pre-war population.
In addition to which, several traditional Estonian national minorities had either left or had been destroyed – Germans, Swedes and Jews.

Approximately 80 000 Estonians from the pre-war population had escaped or emigrated and did not return to Estonia (including approximately 7 000 ethnic Swedes). In addition to this, approximately 20 000, so-called Baltic Germans, settled in Germany.
In 1941, the Soviet regime deported 400 Jews to Siberia (10% of the Jewish community in Estonia). From 1941-1944, 1 000 Jews living in Estonia were killed by the German occupiers, practically all who had not been able to escape from Estonia. The Nazi regime also killed citizens of other countries in their concentration camps in Estonia, primarily Jews.

From 1940-1945 at the least 70 000-75 000 Estonians died as victims of the occupations and World War II representing 6-7% of Estonia’s pre-war population. Largely as a result of World War II, the population of ethnic Estonians has still not reached its pre-war levels.

The Estonian state and its people were one of the first victims of World War II. Estonia’s fate - the violent annihilation of its independence – was decided by the same deal (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) with which fascist Germany drew confidence and courage to trigger World War II by attacking Poland. Having lost their independence, the citizens of Estonia also became the victims of aggression by foreign powers. Estonian citizens were forced to fight in the armies of the occupying countries. Estonian soldiers were not able to fight in their own country’s uniforms, for their own country, for the freedom of their people.

As a democratic country, Estonia does not consider to be criminals those who were forcefully enlisted to fight for the occupation regimes nor see the need for them to be punished. This position was used by Western democracies following World War II, for example, fighting on the German side did not prevent the obtaining of residence permits or citizenship in these countries. Exceptions were those who committed crimes against humanity by participating in the repressions carried out by the occupying powers. With regret, it must be noted that some people, for various reasons, accepted the ideologies of the totalitarian regimes and participated in the violence. The majority of the people condemned this kind of behaviour remaining true to their state and democratic ideals.

The Estonian soldiers who lost the right to make their own decisions and choices were victims just like all other Estonian citizens who suffered because of this war.

Belonging to those who had lost the most due to World War II, the Estonian people shared its solidarity and support with all countries and peoples, who were fighting for their independence and sovereignty. Many were victorious 60 years ago, but some were not. As a result of World War II, Estonia lost its independence and experienced great losses of its people. Thus, Estonia will celebrate 8 May as the end of World War II in Europe, but primarily as a day of remembrance for the victims and the fallen. This day did not bring freedom to Estonia.

English translation of the draft Declaration of the Government of the Republic of Estonia compiled by Foreign Minister August Rei in September 1944

__________________________________________________ ___________

8 May 2007 Events of the Commemoration day for the victims of World War II in Estonia

09.30 Laying of a wreath at the Holocaust memorial in Klooga
11.00 Laying of a wreath at the Garrison Cemetery (14 Filtri tee)
11.30 Commemorating of German, Russian and Estonian fallen
soldiers at Maarjamäe memorial

Members of the Estonian Government and the diplomatic corps of Tallinn are invited to take part in the events.

Estonia will be represented by its diplomatic representatives in countries holding commemorative events for the victims of World War II.

__________________________________________________ ___________

* British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Atlantic Charter on 14 August 1941, where they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them.

http://www.vm.ee/estonia/pea_172/kat_509/5379.html

[Happy Times]

And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO.

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think? :shifty:

He is not paranoid, he just wants to restore what was lost. He has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical catastrophy. But he must be crazy letting things this far. Any moment Russians could be attacked in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Sweden. Then this will come even bigger crisis.

[AntEater]

Morals aside, as a small nation, you simply don't piss off your big neighbour (except if your big neighbour is Germany, then the big neighbour will just say you're right:damn:).
Also, the current russians living in Estonia can hardly be blamed for Stalin and I have experienced firsthand the troubles this strange estonian "quasi-citizenship" can cause.

The whole memorial affair was just the apparent reason, a reason for ethnic russians to vent their anger on their (or not really theirs, because the can't elect it) government.
My best friend married a estonian-russian and ran into endless trouble because of her "alien's passport".
There's some double standard regarding the treatment of russians here.
If any european country would treat, lets say Turks or whatever muslims the way the Baltic states treat Russians, the whole ummah, every PC politician and half the press would gang up on them. Or remember when Austria elected Haider?
Haider is a choir boy against the leadership of all baltic states regarding nationalism and treatment of foreigners. Seems that racism is ok in the EU as long as it is directed against russians.
So if you don't want to give the russians an excuse for being agressive to you, simply don't treat russians as second class citizens.
The baltic states remind me of the "big dog and mee-too" syndrome...

[TteFAboB]

Or they can pack up and cross the border since Russia is right next door.

[XabbaRus]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.
Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

Really you didn't read the article in the Guardian. Sorry it was teh Guardian guess taht is too lefty liberal.

[Happy Times]

Morals aside, as a small nation, you simply don't piss off your big neighbour (except if your big neighbour is Germany, then the big neighbour will just say you're right:damn:).
Also, the current russians living in Estonia can hardly be blamed for Stalin and I have experienced firsthand the troubles this strange estonian "quasi-citizenship" can cause.

The whole memorial affair was just the apparent reason, a reason for ethnic russians to vent their anger on their (or not really theirs, because the can't elect it) government.
My best friend married a estonian-russian and ran into endless trouble because of her "alien's passport".
There's some double standard regarding the treatment of russians here.
If any european country would treat, lets say Turks or whatever muslims the way the Baltic states treat Russians, the whole ummah, every PC politician and half the press would gang up on them. Or remember when Austria elected Haider?
Haider is a choir boy against the leadership of all baltic states regarding nationalism and treatment of foreigners. Seems that racism is ok in the EU as long as it is directed against russians.
So if you don't want to give the russians an excuse for being agressive to you, simply don't treat russians as second class citizens.
The baltic states remind me of the "big dog and mee-too" syndrome...

Well Finns are called stubborn and since Estonians are close relatives it seem to run in the family.:p I personally dont give **** about the feelings of Russians. Many monuments/graves of Finnish soldiers in Karelia have been repeatedly vandalized. I would rather die than loose my freedom, i live like that and have no fear. The Russians refuse to learn the local language, thats the only obstacle to being a citizen.
They have to decide if they want to be Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian or Russian. Nobody wants a fifth colum in their country, that is loyal to a neighbouring dictatorship. And thanks for nothing Germany, Merkel had no comment. Its not like you dont have a part in this present situation.:p

[XabbaRus]

What AntEater said is a fair point.

It certainly does seem that it is OK to be racist towards Russians that's ok.
Like I said immediately Russians bad, everyone else good. It's not just having to learn the language that blocks the way to becoming a citizen, there is still active discrimination towards the Russian population whether they have got their citizenship or not. Funny I know some Russians who live in the Baltic states, were born there anc consider it home, decent Russians too. Everything I have seen in the press that is non Russian seesm to demonise all Russians as a whole. Also up sticks and move next door. Not that simple.

Oh and one thing, given the choice of living under communism or facism. I'd choose the USSR anyday.

[Happy Times]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.
Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

Really you didn't read the article in the Guardian. Sorry it was teh Guardian guess taht is too lefty liberal.

It picked some events, even out of context and claimed there was large scale right wing movement in the Baltic states. Has this commie reporter written about the ultra nationalism rising in Russia..

[AntEater]

Yes, Estonians are stubborn.
But fifth column or not, if that column is at least 25 per cent of your own population then you have two options: Yugoslavian style ethnic cleansing or some kind of modus vivendi. Problem is, ethnic cleansing isnt really that popular nowadays and not a good idea with such neighbours.
Strangely, I know both "real" Estonians and russians from there (and jews who tend to side with the russians) and I havent sofar run into any fifth columnists, monsters, terrorists or whatever.
But that over hyped nationalism does seem strange to me.
Problem is, the european Union is not Estonia's big brother to hide behind after throwing stones at the neighbour's big boy.

The sad fact remains that WW2 destroyed that unique baltic culture, where balts, swedes and germans lived together.

[Happy Times]

What AntEater said is a fair point.

It certainly does seem that it is OK to be racist towards Russians that's ok.
Like I said immediately Russians bad, everyone else good. It's not just having to learn the language that blocks the way to becoming a citizen, there is still active discrimination towards the Russian population whether they have got their citizenship or not. Funny I know some Russians who live in the Baltic states, were born there anc consider it home, decent Russians too. Everything I have seen in the press that is non Russian seesm to demonise all Russians as a whole. Also up sticks and move next door. Not that simple.

Oh and one thing, given the choice of living under communism or facism. I'd choose the USSR anyday.

What kind of dicrimination? I dont demonise the regular Russians but the Russian goverment that uses them as tool using propaganda and misinformation through state controlled media. This also works against the integration of the Russian speaking population in to the Baltic states.

Oh, really, would you like to live in Putins Russia?
http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/rus-summary-eng

[XabbaRus]

I did for 3 years.

[Happy Times]

Yes, Estonians are stubborn.
But fifth column or not, if that column is at least 25 per cent of your own population then you have two options: Yugoslavian style ethnic cleansing or some kind of modus vivendi. Problem is, ethnic cleansing isnt really that popular nowadays and not a good idea with such neighbours.
Strangely, I know both "real" Estonians and russians from there (and jews who tend to side with the russians) and I havent sofar run into any fifth columnists, monsters, terrorists or whatever.
But that over hyped nationalism does seem strange to me.
Problem is, the european Union is not Estonia's big brother to hide behind after throwing stones at the neighbour's big boy.

The sad fact remains that WW2 destroyed that unique baltic culture, where balts, swedes and germans lived together.

You really sound like you are, from a big country. Actually EU is suppose to be that big brother and Russia is testing the EU and NATO.
Im sure that the nations in the area have noticed the passive attitude from these organisations, this makes the region somewhat unstable.

[Happy Times]

I did for 3 years.

Why did you leave?

[XabbaRus]

Why? Not the reasons you believe.

I left because I got married and had my first child and figured we would be better off in the UK, since I was only teaching English in Moscow. In some ways maybe not the best move. Given the chance and I am always looking I'll go back in a flash.

[Smaragdadler]

http://www.societyofcontrol.com/reform/propheten/images/stark_poster19.jpg
left: Life is nothing!
right: Honour is all!
bottom: The true folkish thought. The true German deed!

"stark" (German) = "strong" / "Bund" (German) = "Obligation"

-> http://www.societyofcontrol.com/reform/propheten/index.htm

"Kohlrabi" (German) = "turnip cappage" / "Apostel" (German) = "apostle"
"Inflation" (German) = "inflation" / "Heilige" (German) = "Holy one"

[Smaragdadler]

You cannot compare. Jews were constantly harrassed throughout the centuries in Russia.

In contrast, in Germany, in the latter half of the 19th century, once European emancipation got even Germany to drop its mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts, opportunities that never existed before opened up throughout much of Germany, in spite of the continuing loathing of Jews by so many Germans.
Some other "Jewish" tale about the mess:
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm
(many, many years old...)

[Happy Times]

Things have been tense for years. You have to understand that most people in what is now modern Russia spoke a Finno-Ugric language in the early middle ages, so in a way we are related. But as we know language and culture define people more than DNA. The Russification has continued to this day and what remains is Estonia, Finland, Hungary and small pockets inside Russia. These remaining Finno-Ugrians are considered a threat by Putin. So in a way this a thousand year long family feud..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimosodat

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Finno-Ugric_languages.png

Suspicions of "Finno-Ugric conspiracy" in Russia

By Mika Parkkonen

During the autumn, a number of Russian newspapers have been advancing a new conspiracy theory, according to which Finland, Estonia, and Hungary are giving their support to Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia in order to get their hands on the gas, oil, and mineral resources in the areas in which the peoples live.
Last spring there was extensive coverage in the Finnish and Estonian media about the oppression of the Mari people in their home republic. The controversy became so great that the European Parliament issued a demand to Russia that it treat its Mari better.

The conspiracy theories began emerging in the papers when the Kremlin leaked a speech made in May by Vladislav Surkov, a domestic policy adviser to President Vladimir Putin, which he delivered to Russian industrialists.
The leak was a response to concerns by Finland, Estonia, and Hungary on the fate of the Mari. The purpose was to cover up the bad situation of the ethnic minority and to cast suspicions on the motives of the countries that have offered their support.
The main idea of the theories has been that the aim of the conspirators would be to grab the natural riches of the Ugric regions for a Finno-Ugric great power "that is in the making".
According to the stories, Russia's Finno-Ugric areas are the target of a project supported by Finland, Estonia, and Hungary to set up a Greater Finno-Ugria. The topic has even been taken up by the official newspaper of the Russian government, Rossyiskaya Gazeta.

In an article published in early August, the government's newspaper goes through the setup in the Mari elections in December, and the beating of nationalist activist Vladimir Kozlov. According to the article, the beating was politicised because the opposition accused the president in office of being behind the crime.
"A nationalist label was placed on the events, which led to an exaggerated scandal in the West, and to accusations against Russia of oppressing national minorities."

The newspaper claimed that Helsingin Sanomat, the Estonian Human Rights Institute, and Finnish and Estonian MEPs brought the matter to the European level, and the European Parliament presented its demands concerning the Mari People to Russia in what amounted to a virtual ultimatum.
"It is clear that the accusations were planned in advance. Areas inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples contain 40% of Russia's strategic oil reserves, large bauxite and diamond deposits, and companies of the strategic military industry. For this reason, Russia's competitors in the world economy are interested in national questions", Rossyiskaya Gazeta wrote.
According to the newspaper, there are supporters of a Finno-Ugric great power in Russia as well. In March Anatoly Karakchiyev, a renowned politician in the Komi Republic, proposed the unification of four northeastern areas of Russia - Komi, Arkangel, Vologda, and Nenechia - into a single "Northern area". Rossyiskaya Gazeta saw this as a precursor of sorts to an Ugric state.

A week later, Zavtra, a weekly journal put out by Russia's conservative communists, wrote about the same topic, claiming that Finland is supporting the northern areas in order to strengthen their attempts to disengage from the central administration.
The communist paper compares the strivings toward autonomy by the Finno-Ugric areas with the bids for independence in trouble-torn republics of the North Caucasus, and concludes that the threat posed by the Ugric areas to Russia's unity is greater than that of the Caucasus.
Zavtra justifies its claim by noting that the Ugric people belong to the same ethnic and linguistic group, and that they can therefore understand each other, unlike the peoples in the Caucasus. They also have very similar cultural traditions and customs.
"The development of Finno-Ugric language and culture is in full swing in these areas. Finno-Ugric elements have a very strong influence on teaching in schools, because the languages of the nationalities, and even their various dialects, are taught. In addition, these republics hold various seminars of cultural propaganda carried out with the help of federal budget funds", the paper continues.

In the view of Zavtra, Finland, Estonia, and Hungary are supporting the Finno-Ugrics to a "hyper-active" degree, seeing the Russian Finno-Ugric areas as targets of geographical expansion.
If Estonia and Hungary manage to restrict their anti-Russian aims to resolutions in the European Parliament, and to visits by ambassadors, Finland is going much further. In the paper's view, a long-standing vengeful campaign has been waged in the Finnish media for years, aimed at restoring the borders of "Greater Finland".

Helsingin Sanomat / First published in print 1.10.2005

http://www.hs.fi/english/print/1101981168282

[Smaragdadler]

What about Lithuania? I have old nazi-ariosophist texts (SS-Wiligut etc.) that speak of Lihtuanian language as to veriy close to original "ario-germanic" ("indo-european") language and so close to "original" runic inscriptions...
(What's the 'linguistic' difference between Lithuania, Lettland and Esthonia --- and Finns/....Hungarians)

[Happy Times]

What about Lithuania? I have old nazi-ariosophist texts (SS-Wiligut etc.) that speak of Lihtuanian language as to veriy close to original "ario-germanic" ("indo-european") language and so close to "original" runic inscriptions...

I really dont know what your getting at. But yes, Lithuanian and Latvian are a branch of Indo-European languages. And language and "race" or genetics have nothing to do with eachother. Language is connected to culture and we are all of mixed "race"/genes.

[CCIP]

I refuse to participate in this discussion, however I'll note that I wear a Soviet star on me at all times when outside as my protest to the situation. :-?


We've already had this discussion with Happy Times and I'd be very un-happy indeed to clash with him over it again, knowing where it'd lead.

I'm offended by some of the posts here already. In my family, 2 of my uncles/aunts and 4 cousins were born in and live in Estonia. My (ethnically Finnish) great-grandfather fought with the Soviet army in the area (or rather was a field surgeon), and had a head wound to show for it. It disgusts me to think they'd be thought of or treated this way.

[Smaragdadler]

What about Lithuania? I have old nazi-ariosophist texts (SS-Wiligut etc.) that speak of Lihtuanian language as to veriy close to original "ario-germanic" ("indo-european") language and so close to "original" runic inscriptions...
I really dont know what your getting at. But yes, Lithuanian and Latvian are a branch of Indo-European languages. And language and "race" or genetics have nothing to do with eachother. Language is connected to culture and we are all of mixed "race"/genes.
No "race-lyno-mythologicall" implicanion from my side. Just a "desire to get to the roots"...:) (and to find the "truth" - what ever that may be...)

[Happy Times]

I refuse to participate in this discussion, however I'll note that I wear a Soviet star on me at all times when outside as my protest to the situation. :-?


We've already had this discussion with Happy Times and I'd be very un-happy indeed to clash with him over it again, knowing where it'd lead.

I'm offended by some of the posts here already. In my family, 2 of my uncles/aunts and 4 cousins were born in and live in Estonia. My (ethnically Finnish) great-grandfather fought with the Soviet army in the area (or rather was a field surgeon), and had a head wound to show for it. It disgusts me to think they'd be thought of or treated this way.

And ive said i dont have anything against you or your family personally. I dont get why Russia just cant admit the genocides comitted towards minorities.
Do you think that two small nations of 6.000.000 population want to be in bad terms with 150.000.000 people?
Just for the spite of it?
Do you see any possibility that there could be something wrong in the otherside also?
Are you positive you are not being played by people experts in disinformation? edit. your probably smarter than me but there are emotions running in both sides..
The statue was erected to remember the "liberation" of Estonia, dont you see this could offend the Estonians?
It was just moved to a beutiful place in the war cemetary, what is the big deal?

[Smaragdadler]

... however I'll note that I wear a Soviet star on me at all times ...
[...]
Not a 'star'. Just a pentagram ... coloured in red. Just as the american one - coloured in white...

...and yes: the 'Hakenkreuz' (Swasitka) was black...

[joea]

... however I'll note that I wear a Soviet star on me at all times ...
[...]
Not a 'star'. Just a pentagram ... coloured in red. Just as the american one - coloured in white...

...and yes: the 'Hakenkreuz' (Swasitka) was black...
I really don't get your posts on this thread. :-?

[Happy Times]

Estonia hit by 'Moscow cyber war'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6665145.stm

EU-Russian talks end in acrimony

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6668111.stm

Scuffles over control of Finnish-owned container terminal near St. Petersburg - issue to go before court

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Scuffles+over+control+of+Finnish-owned+container+terminal+near+St+Petersburg+-+issue+to+go+before+court/1135227349544

Väyrynen demands discussion of wood tariff dispute at EU-Russia Summit

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/V%C3%A4yrynen+demands+discussion+of+wood+tariff+di spute+at+EU-Russia+Summit/1135227349331

[MaxT.dk]

I've tried to stay away from this thread (and I will as this is my first and last post in this thread), but your whining my little finnish friend (yes, you, Happy Times (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=219709)) is just over the top...

"I would rather die than loose my freedom, i live like that and have no fear."
I would see you talking like that when your whole country and your family were about to be exterminated in WW2... Oh wait, you would prefer to be SS as I can read between the lines...

It's people like you who does not help the integration (which you've talked about) of the Russian minority in Finland... Integration is both ways, not the one way only...

Just looking at the threads you've started (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?searchid=151256) it's clearly that you're a f*ckin' nationalist... Is that all that you're interested in? Geez... Grow up man...

Do you want some cheese with that w(h)ine?
I have much to say to you, but I feel you're just not worth it... :roll:


---

By the way, don't PM me... You're on ignore list... And no, I wont read this thread again so you can keep your bad nationalistic excuses to yourself...

[Happy Times]

I've tried to stay away from this thread (and I will as this is my first and last post in this thread), but your whining my little finnish friend (yes, you, Happy Times) is just over the top...

I know it irritates you my little Russian comrade, but its for your own good, and for my pleasure.

"I would rather die than loose my freedom, i live like that and have no fear."
I would see you talking like that when your whole country and your family were about to be exterminated in WW2...

Yes, they tried to do that.

Oh wait, you would prefer to be SS as I can read between the lines...

You have an interesting talent, maybe i can read your mind. But after accusing me, i have to state that i am not a racist or a fascist. I dont even believe in different races. . And i dont believe in autoritarian rule, enlaving groups of people or other nations.
I dont want to put anyone in the gaschamber or in a gulag. I DO believe there are differences between cultures and hold in high regard the free, democratic, capitalist one.


It's people like you who does not help the integration (which you've talked about) of the Russian minority in Finland... Integration is both ways, not the one way only...

Ive never personally done anything to any Russian, not even looked funny. In Finland they make an personal integration plan to imigrants, anyone that is willing to take part.. They teach language, help to get work etc.. How much more does one need help in a foreign country. And in Estonia there are people born there not speaking Estonian. They are derailing themselfs, waiting for the old times to return.. Those that speak do just fine.

Just looking at the threads you've started it's clearly that you're a f*ckin' nationalist... Is that all that you're interested in? Geez... Grow up man...

Yes, ofcourse im a nationalist. So are half the people in this forum. I believe in the nation state and in every nations right to have one.Though im not totally against EU, willing to pay some for peace in Europe, so how radical am i.. Btw, im in many forums, computers, hunting, cars, ice hockey, movies, cooking, building..



Do you want some cheese with that w(h)ine?

Yes, please.

I have much to say to you, but I feel you're just not worth it..

Hows that working for you?




---

By the way, don't PM me... You're on ignore list... And no, I wont read this thread again so you can keep your bad nationalistic excuses to yourself...

Liar liar..

[Takeda Shingen]

Civility is paramount to the continuance of discussion.

Thanks,
The Management

[sergbuto]

Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.
You cannot compare. Jews were constantly harrassed throughout the centuries in Russia.

In contrast, in Germany, in the latter half of the 19th century, once European emancipation got even Germany to drop its mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts, opportunities that never existed before opened up throughout much of Germany, in spite of the continuing loathing of Jews by so many Germans.
Yes, Jews in Russia were harrassed by some of population as it was in Germany or in Britain or other countries. F.e. neutral Sweden even deported German Jews back to Germany. But can you name any of "mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts" officially existed in Russia starting from the latter half of the 19th century? Just curious.

[sergbuto]

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.
F.e. Germany, Berlin.

It does not take guts to fight with dead since they can't defend themselves. No one can re-write the history no matter how bad it was.

[Happy Times]

Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.
You cannot compare. Jews were constantly harrassed throughout the centuries in Russia.

In contrast, in Germany, in the latter half of the 19th century, once European emancipation got even Germany to drop its mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts, opportunities that never existed before opened up throughout much of Germany, in spite of the continuing loathing of Jews by so many Germans.
Yes, Jews in Russia were harrassed by some of population as it was in Germany or in Britain or other countries. F.e. neutral Sweden even deported German Jews back to Germany. But can you name any of "mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts" officially existed in Russia starting from the latter half of the 19th century? Just curious.

"Alexander III did not simply seek to make life more difficult for Jews in his domain; he intended to make it impossible. Konstantin Pobedonostsev would one day candidly admit to a Jewish delegation hoping for relief that the regime expected one-third of Russia's Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to perish. Since Pobedonostsev was the tsar's mentor, friend, and most respected adviser, apart from his official post as procurator-general of the Holy Synod, he and his sovereign were of one mind. As the 1880s progressed, the legislation prohibiting Jews from moving to villages — inside as well as outside the Pale — assured the slow death of shtetl existence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Laws