Some thoughts from one of the mainstream

[boadle]

On a regular basis, I pick up the latest 'hardcore' sim from Game, and plan to invest several months in it, and immerse myself in the atmosphere, knowing that this is 'as real as it gets'.

I've picked up all three previous versions of SH with this intention, as well as MS Flight Simulator et al.

However, my good intentions often fall away after a few hours, and I revert to World War II Online, or Stalker, or even BF 2. The reason for this is generally what I perceive as a lack of 'humanity'. With SH, The technical stuff is great, and the sense of poring over nautical maps, and the radio stuff, and the attention to detail; all highly commendable, and I know your current 'hardcore' audience lap this stuff up.

My issue with SH 1 - 4, and the major stumbling block to 'mainstream' gamers, I feel, whose only real exposure to Submarine fare is The Hunt for Red October, Das Boot etc, is the lack of human interest.

The modelled characters go some way to addressing this, and were badly needed, but the game is crying out for enemy sailors abandoning ship, clambering into life jackets, drowning in their metal coffins. I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew. I need to see men scambling around my boat, putting out fires, scalded by jets of steam, even bringing me cups of coffee and telling me how much they miss their girl back home.

Why can't I walk around my boat? Maybe the next iteration should be fully First Person?

We want to feel like we are Sean Connery, not just some trigonometry machine.

I work in the games industry (Free Radical - boy, have we got some crackers in the works for FPS fans), so I am aware of the cost (in financial, and human resource terms) of character modelling, rigging and texturing, of motion capture sessions and voice acting. However, I feel that in order to capture the elusive mainstream, SH and the ilk need to address this aspect.

Other that this, your game looks great. Congrats.

[joea]

Well that's not really the crowd at this forum. Those are 2 very different markets you're talking about here.

[AirborneTD]

SH4 has made some advances in these areas. There are lifeboats and crews on decks of ships. I would like to see more movement inside my sub and to have freedom to move in different compartments. I really enjoy this sim for what it is--with the modders help of course.

[boadle]

Well that's not really the crowd at this forum. Those are 2 very different markets you're talking about here.

My impression, Joea, is that the developers of SH4 are trying to position their product to move at least somewhat into the mainstream.

[maerean_m]

sailors abandoning ship, clambering into life jackets, drowning in their metal coffins. I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew. I need to see men scambling around my boat, putting out fires, scalded by jets of steam, even bringing me cups of coffee and telling me how much they miss their girl back home.

The game is not allowed to let you see the full effect of your aggression because the ESRB and PEGI ratings that won't allow the people to buy the game, not even those that bought it now.

In the beta stage there were people blown away by explosions and people drowning in the water, but they all had to be removed.

[pasharr]

Boadle you little sneak! Gettin onto here! IF you have SH3 you should invest some time in the GWX mod. It brings that game to life. I expect the same will happen for SH4 eventually.

[boadle]

The game is not allowed to let you see the full effect of your aggression because the ESRB and PEGI ratings that won't allow the people to buy the game, not even those that bought it now.

In the beta stage there were people blown away by explosions and people drowning in the water, but they all had to be removed.
Wow. What a shame. Bizarre that the respectives committees see a respectful simulation more harmful than 'Bully' or 'Manhunt'. I suspect that the boards warned the developers that the rating would need to change to include these features, and the developers weren't prepared to do that.

Boadle you little sneak! Gettin onto here! IF you have SH3 you should invest some time in the GWX mod. It brings that game to life. I expect the same will happen for SH4 eventually
Um hi? Have we met? Had a look at the GWX mod. Looks pretty cool. Love the dolphins. Will check it out.

[mookiemookie]

I'd rather they invested their time in gameplay and simulation aspects rather than crewmen bringing me coffee, which may be cute to see once or twice but would become annoying after a while. With limited time and budget constraints, I'm thinking that they should focus on the more important parts of the sim.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;)

[TDK1044]

I think the poster makes a good point regarding the human element. Each new version of the Silent Hunter series has improved on the previous version in some form, but they all have the same gramatical approach. I think it's that grammar that needs to change if we are to get a Silent Hunter 5 that really excites us.

Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home.

In Silent Hunter 4, the crew interaction with the Captain is really limited to confirming and carrying out an order. I think you need a Captain's cabin so that you can be interrupted or woken from your sleep by a crewmember informing you that a convoy has been spotted, or that the sub has encountered an unexpected technical failure that needs your attention.

You need to feel like you are actually on your sub, and right now you don't. You feel like you control everything that happens on the sub, but you don't feel that you're actually there with the crew. That's what needs to change.

The reality is though that what I'm describing is a three year project with a totally new game engine. It's never going to happen......I can dream though.

[boadle]

I think the poster makes a good point regarding the human element. Each new version of the Silent Hunter series has improved on the previous version in some form, but they all have the same gramatical approach. I think it's that grammar that needs to change if we are to get a Silent Hunter 5 that really excites us.

Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home.

In Silent Hunter 4, the crew interaction with the Captain is really limited to confirming and carrying out an order. I think you need a Captain's cabin so that you can be interrupted or woken from your sleep by a crewmember informing you that a convoy has been spotted, or that the sub has encountered an unexpected technical failure that needs your attention.

You need to feel like you are actually on your sub, and right now you don't. You feel like you control everything that happens on the sub, but you don't feel that you're actually there with the crew. That's what needs to change.

The reality is though that what I'm describing is a three year project with a totally new game engine. It's never going to happen......I can dream though.
Nicely put 'poster' ;). Agree 100%.

[pasharr]

Um hi? Have we met?
Yeh I work with you! lol! :)

[SteamWake]

The "Sims" meet the simulator :hmm:

[Snuffy]

Last night, I took out a mine sweeper while surfaced and only a couple 100 yards from the boat. I used the scope on the deck gun and could see the enemy sailors on the boat as they did their thing, using their weapons against me, running from one end to the other end of the boat, as well as watching two of them fall down dead from a shot I put between them.

I think it gets real, you just have to be at the right location at the right time. Of course having a higher end machine graphics wise will probably help in this too. (I run a pair of 7600GS with 256megs each in SLI configuration.)

[Chock]

The first time I fired up SH4 and saw the people moving about on the ship I subsequently torpedoed, I found it a genuinely unsettling experience, so I can well understand the removal of features that focused on the nastier aspects of torpedoing a merchant ship.

Occasionally the game/sim allows this kind of thing to slip through, I have seen it once in SH4, where a Japanese gunner collasped to the deck in his gun turret as it was engulfed in flames, it was only for a split second, as the programme then deleted all the crew off the destroyed ship, but nevertheless it was there briefly, and a nasty thing it was too.

It is often quoted in war biographies that men in combat found it easier to cope with this aspect of war by concentrating on shooting down 'a machine' or sinking 'a ship' as opposed to trying to kill a pilot, or wipe out a crew. And I find that this is the way I'd also like to deal with it in a simulation too. For me the interest in simulations lies in the challenge of getting a skilled deflection shot on a Spitfire or Messerschmitt, or carefully stalking a ship and getting your solution correct, that and the chance to try out the things you read about in history books and autobiographies. That is what I want to simulate, not forcing someone to drown or be burned alive, and I suspect that no-one, other than a very sick individual, would really want to see that kind of thing in a simulation.

War is a very nasty thing, but it is also an object of fascination for people, as we see the very best and worst that men and women can do displayed in it. I prefer to study the skill in it, rather than the results of it, which are best left unsimulated, as there is enough of it in the real world to go around.

More crew interaction however, I personally think would be very cool, and I'm in agreement that it would be very nice to be able to 'walk around' a fully realised submarine interior, actually pressing and pulling all the knobs and switches and having them do things. But as you say, that would be a hell of an undertaking to attempt in any truly realistic form. Nevertheless, it would at least concentrate on the less gruesome aspects of war, although unfortunately, they tend to be the boring bits too when it comes to making a game.

Having said all that, here is something you might want to try: Despite the obvious bonus of eye candy that SH4 offers, try a mission or campaign with external view disabled (yes I know it will be a wrench). What you'll find is that it makes the game a very different and vastly more believable undertaking, as the sense of claustrophobia and isolation is heightened. This of course is bordering on making your game slightly more uncomfortable as an experience, but it does add a very human element to things.

On the whole, I think the original poster makes a good point, but as I say, I think some things are best left out of a war game

[tater]

Actually, as more of a sim guy I mostly agree with the boadle. Oddly, I think some of the "100% realism" optons are less real. The TDC is something run by a TDC operator in the attack party, for example. As skipper I should understand, evnen check it maybe, but I'd rather have a more interactive crew to increase immerson.

For me, proper outcomes are required for immersion, but so are the details of interacting with the crew.

[boadle]

On the whole, I think the original poster makes a good point, but as I say, I think some things are best left out of a war game

A sobering post indeed.

So, I'm confused. Are there people on the ships in the released version of SH4? Do they man lifeboats and jump overboard? Were they only featured in a beta version, and then removed?

[pasharr]

Talking of unsettling experience's when playing these games, I've always felt somehow wrong when playing SH3, but thats only because my Grandad was torpedoed four times and lost a lot of friends...Stories I grew up with, hence the interest in sims of this type. So I must admit to some weird guilt when playing that version.

Luckily SH4 doesnt have that! :)

[immortal44]

Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home.

I don't agree. I would say there are 3 camps:

1. Point and shoot crowd, a very casual gamer.

2. Those who want to roleplay as a sub captain.

3. Those who want to simulate ww2 sub warfare.

This forum is probably split between 2 and 3. The big difference is those in group 2 want more interaction with the sub (ie fully explorable, interactive controls, interact with crew etc) and probably less work with manual targetting. A real captain would not do all of that himself, which brings us to the 3rd group. These guys aren't so much roleplaying a captain as simulating ww2 sub warfare. They'll do the calculations because that is what was done, even if not by the captain (well in reality they probably had gagets to help them out as well as experience to give damn good estimates).

I'm more of 2 than 3. I wish that you could request the crew to track a target through the scope giving bearing, range etc or having someone record it on the map, ordering those details be sent to whoever would have operated the tdc in real life (?). I do like the challenge of figuring it all out yourself but I don't think it is realistic at all. And sometimes it'd be nice to be able to choose in game without having the simple auto targeting enabled. I guess I'd like a semi-auto option.

[AVGWarhawk]

I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew.

I had to stop reading after this line. Specifically "my aggression on real people" Phoooooo.......:o

[Sailor Steve]

I like immortal44's summation. I'm more of a 3 myself, having loved sims like Aces Of The Deep and Silent Hunter 1. All I asked for from newer games was better graphics, but the more I see of the onboard crew (especially on the bridge) and now the people on the ships in SH4, the more I drift toward number 2. Playing those older games, however, which had no stations, just screens, I never felt like a "trigonometry machine".

I sort of agree with boadle-it would be nice to be able to tour the whole sub; but until it becomes easy to program all the extra stations without losing out in other areas I'll live with only having the ones that are necessary. As for the mainstream, are most normal gamers ever going to be happy sailing around for weeks of game time, on the off-chance that they might actually see a target, and maybe get to attack it?

[momo55]

When i attack a ship ..i attack the ship and here cargo ...not the crew on it.
I'm always surprised when i see that no ship in a convoy will attempt to save those poor men in there lifeboats . They just sail on ...leaving there fellow countrymen behind...strange behavior :nope::hmm:

[boadle]

I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew.
I had to stop reading after this line. Specifically "my aggression on real people" Phoooooo.......:o

Perhaps a better nomenclature would have been "my virtual aggression on virtual people".

You can go and read it now, Warhawk.

[nattydread]

Woohoo, WWIIOnline is the still my #1 game. The only reason I got into WWII subs and subs in general was because of WWIIOnline. It is the furture of multiplayer war sims. Thoug hits far away from getting subs, my intention has always to develop my sub skills so one day I can use them in WWIIOnline in the most "realistic" combat environment available.

The thing that still causes me to eventually drift from these single player sims and severally limited "battle in a bottle" multipler engagments is the limited scope and redundancy they both eventually devolve into. Only until devs invest time and resources into a 24hr persistent combat theater environment will these sims have lasting appeal for me as WWIIOnline has.

I'd gladly pay $12-15 a month for years to have that type of gameplay like I do with WWIIOnline. They have gotten their monthly subscription from me for over 6yrs now and will continue too, even if I dont play for a few months. Why? because I believe in their vision and I know if they die that game style and vision dies with them. Those guys slave away like no other and that devotion on their part is reciprocated by my support financially and in admiration.

[swash]

Woohoo, WWIIOnline is the still my #1 game. The only reason I got into WWII subs and subs in general was because of WWIIOnline. It is the furture of multiplayer war sims. Thoug hits far away from getting subs, my intention has always to develop my sub skills so one day I can use them in WWIIOnline in the most "realistic" combat environment available.

The thing that still causes me to eventually drift from these single player sims and severally limited "battle in a bottle" multipler engagments is the limited scope and redundancy they both eventually devolve into. Only until devs invest time and resources into a 24hr persistent combat theater environment will these sims have lasting appeal for me as WWIIOnline has.

I'd gladly pay $12-15 a month for years to have that type of gameplay like I do with WWIIOnline. They have gotten their monthly subscription from me for over 6yrs now and will continue too, even if I dont play for a few months. Why? because I believe in their vision and I know if they die that game style and vision dies with them. Those guys slave away like no other and that devotion on their part is reciprocated by my support financially and in admiration.

I doubt there will ever be subs in ww2ol:nope:

On topic, I really wish the convoy vessels would pick up some of the lifeboats. Less contact reports that way:yep:

[Herr Karl]

That's too bad the more mature content had to be left out due to rating restrictions.:nope:

Maybe an option to enable mature content and a dual rating system?..i.e. T/M?

Just thinking out loud....:ping:

[XanderF]

I would say there are 3 camps:

1. Point and shoot crowd, a very casual gamer.

2. Those who want to roleplay as a sub captain.

3. Those who want to simulate ww2 sub warfare.

This forum is probably split between 2 and 3. The big difference is those in group 2 want more interaction with the sub (ie fully explorable, interactive controls, interact with crew etc) and probably less work with manual targetting. A real captain would not do all of that himself, which brings us to the 3rd group. These guys aren't so much roleplaying a captain as simulating ww2 sub warfare. They'll do the calculations because that is what was done, even if not by the captain (well in reality they probably had gagets to help them out as well as experience to give damn good estimates).


Snipped either end off, but good post. I agree.

I think I'm more of a '2' than a '3' (although some of both, obviously), which is why I keep coming back to Sh3 and Sh4 (more Sh3, as the crew interaction - while less realistic - is greater) over the modern subsims SC and DW....although, by topic, I am FARRRR more interested in modern naval warfare. As in, modern sub simulations being a '10/10' for interest, WW2 subsims would rate more like a '6/10'.

However, there is literally NO crew interaction in SC or DW. No 3d of course, but no 2d crew, no skills to track, promotions, medals awarded - heck, the campaign itself is only the very thinnest veil over the single-mission-based game engine. As far as the game is concered, you are the only person on a 100m long, 7000 ton nuclear submarine. Oh, with a few computer aids (which is all the 'auto crew' really amount to even when enabled).

So...I end up playing Sh3 instead. (Very frustrating, too, as I cannot hit the broadside of a barn with a torpedo lacking a tracking ability of its own. :damn: )

It'd be AWESOME to have the SH series take steps you'd mentioned - more interaction, have crew handle more things, actually have dialog with crew, etc. But I'd really be happy with a modern subsim that even does what Sh3/4 have done! :up:

[immortal44]

When i attack a ship ..i attack the ship and here cargo ...not the crew on it.
I'm always surprised when i see that no ship in a convoy will attempt to save those poor men in there lifeboats . They just sail on ...leaving there fellow countrymen behind...strange behavior :nope::hmm:

Would you stop where another ship has just been blown out of the water by an enemy sub? :D

[perisher]

When i attack a ship ..i attack the ship and here cargo ...not the crew on it.
I'm always surprised when i see that no ship in a convoy will attempt to save those poor men in there lifeboats . They just sail on ...leaving there fellow countrymen behind...strange behavior :nope::hmm:

Would you stop where another ship has just been blown out of the water by an enemy sub? :D

No sane captain would. In fact there were often ordered not too. Allied convoys sometimes had designated rescue ships, but for normal ships the risk of stopping with a submarine about was far too great to chance. Take the example of the Queen Mary and HMS Curcoa, the high speed troopship rammed and sank her own escort, but could not risk stopping to rescue survivors because of U-boats in the area. It was a trade off of the loss of 338 Royal Navy men against the potential loss of 5,500 American soldiers, as well as the sailors.

[momo55]

I would first ask the skipper of the ship next to me to do that:rotfl:.
But that's what they all do for the moment when i torpedo one of them ...destroyers includet ...they advance at 1 knot max....the lifeboats are faster :lol:

But on a more serious note ...thx for the info perisher ...seems logical ....tuff and cruel dissicions those skippers hade to make .

Keep those feet dry sailors :up:

[THE_MASK]

Um hi? Have we met?
Yeh I work with you! lol! :)

look over your shoulder:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[GoldenEagle8]

Hmm, I personally think that the human element would add a whole new idea to the game. Where as I now see a Liner and think, big boat, heavy boat! and sink it, but if I were to know that the game may simulate, you know, people dieing, I might rethink the thought. I was personally raised on the idea that every body has a family, that loves, and will miss them if they were to die. So in the respect that that may be a troop ship, the people on board still have a family. as of now, I don't see the crew/troops. All I see are somethings on the deck and guns that represent people that will disappear when they get too close to the water. If I were to see lifeboats floating around in the water picking other survivors out of the water, I might be more affected than just seeing a boat appear and float away. So, I would think the inclusion of things like people drowning/fighting for their lives, may actually make it alot more realistic in the respect that "thats not just a ship, there are people on there too." You can't have a realy good simulation unless the best and the worst of the thing you are trying to simulate, right now, it does not seem like something that would really teach you someething about War. But almost no one wants to learn something when playing a "game".:(

[acid001]

well this is my 2 cents,

i am not a teen player jumping between the console and the pc i am a 37 year old electrician and i if i wired a house the way that this game was pushed out, unfinished in 1 day and expecting the home owner to finish the wiring(game code),put on their own coverplates(game options) and install their own main breakers(glitches, ai behavior problems, ctds,) not only would i have to refund the customers money, id probably get sued for shoddy workmanship, and have my licence revoked by the electrical inspector when i put my money down on the table, i expect a product that works as advertised,or a service that is satisfactory to me, the customer

ubisoft , in my opinion has not met these standards. if this product were a car,or a tv for example ther would need to be recall notices issued, yet we do not have this option with software.

i do hope they made some money off this game,because they will probably need it.
my age bracket is in the majority of the demograpic band,and i say will will not be buying from this particular company again, nor will i purchace this companies products for my children

maybie someday some other company will put out a subsim that is complete, entertaining,and worth the money i put into it

goodbye ubisoft you just lost another customer

[nattydread]

Woohoo, WWIIOnline is the still my #1 game. The only reason I got into WWII subs and subs in general was because of WWIIOnline. It is the furture of multiplayer war sims. Thoug hits far away from getting subs, my intention has always to develop my sub skills so one day I can use them in WWIIOnline in the most "realistic" combat environment available.

The thing that still causes me to eventually drift from these single player sims and severally limited "battle in a bottle" multipler engagments is the limited scope and redundancy they both eventually devolve into. Only until devs invest time and resources into a 24hr persistent combat theater environment will these sims have lasting appeal for me as WWIIOnline has.

I'd gladly pay $12-15 a month for years to have that type of gameplay like I do with WWIIOnline. They have gotten their monthly subscription from me for over 6yrs now and will continue too, even if I dont play for a few months. Why? because I believe in their vision and I know if they die that game style and vision dies with them. Those guys slave away like no other and that devotion on their part is reciprocated by my support financially and in admiration.

I doubt there will ever be subs in ww2ol:nope:

On topic, I really wish the convoy vessels would pick up some of the lifeboats. Less contact reports that way:yep:

gotta keep hope alive! Im done hijacking :arrgh!: