Frugality

[Letum]

This post is rated http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6736/npwr9.gif for Non-Political. ;)


Lets start with a nice example of frugality (just because I like it ;) ):

The story goes that Diogenes of Sinope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope) lived in a barrel in Athens with only a
lantern and a bowl. When he saw a beggar eat corn from his hands; Diogenes
threw away his bowl because he did not need it.
Diogenes spent time with the great philosophers of the time and had a
philosophical following himself.
One day, as Diogenes sat in the sun out side his barrel, the emperor Alexander The
Great approached him and asked Diogenes if there was anything he could do for
him. Diogenes said "yes, stand aside, your are blocking the sun".

Diogenes may have been a wild eccentric, but the idea of the frugal life is one that plays a part in every major religion and is usually something that is respected in some way by people regardless of religion and it is something that interests me.
Of course it is also something that the corporate world fights against. A shopping center full of zen monks makes no money!

What do you guys think?
Is there something inherently good about a frugal life?
Is there a kind of spiritual contentedness that can only be found when the material is cast aside?
Is frugality just a kind of laziness that forces other people to work harder?
At what point does frugality become neglect?
Do the frugal miss out on important parts of life? or conversely, do the wealthy miss out on important parts of life?

Perhaps this is a strange topic for a subsim forum, but take it as you will!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Gerome_-_Diogenes.jpg

[Tchocky]

Non-working visa + limited savings = Frugality

:P

[Letum]

Non-working visa + limited savings = Frugality

:P

I don't think it is quite the same if it is not what you want! :P

[Tchocky]

True! I'd write a proper answer, but I'm feeling snide and obtuse.....maybe later

[Heibges]

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Janis Joplin

You can be hard working and still be frugal.

I think it is best if "things" don't make you happy.

I pity folks who have to drive or live in a monument to themselves.

Look at how marketing took over the hippies in the 60's. Pretty soon there was even a hippy deoderant.

[fatty]

I exercise frugality insofar as I don't ever spend more than I have and I usually budget very carefully. I've mapped out my next two years of university and as long as I subtract X amount from each paycheck and put it into my savings I will not go into ANY debt. Anything left over is good for whatever. I don't usually like to buy "extravagances" like flashy clothes, but I did just buy a new camera as photography is a hobby I enjoy very much. So I do put a lot of thought and research into big purchases.

Having a girlfriend means I sometimes have to throw caution to the wind, but I'm not afraid to just put my foot down and say "I can't afford that." I'm lucky enough to be with someone who understands and appreciates that, I think.

EDIT: Of course, he misses out on things. But so do those who indulge themselves, albeit they miss different things. It's just a different perspective, s'all.

[SUBMAN1]

An NP thread? The horror!!! :D

Anyway, I think he did miss out on a lot of life by his choosen way to live the way he did. It is similar to me to putting ones self into a box that he would have no capability to get out of nor the means. Just my thoughts on it.

-S

[Letum]

An NP thread? The horror!!! :D

Anyway, I think he did miss out on a lot of life by his choosen way to live the way he did. It is similar to me to putting ones self into a box that he would have no capability to get out of nor the means. Just my thoughts on it.

-S

Jesus lived frugal live, abstaining from wealth despite having the means to acquire it.
Do you think he lived in such a box?

[Tchocky]

Jesus lived frugal live, abstaining from wealth despite having the means to acquire it.
Do you think he lived in such a box?

Nah, he was in box construction

[CCIP]

I grew up in a very poor, hard-working family.

People who grow up in very poor, hard-working families have two paths, given proper opportunity:
1) They become hyper-efficient and advance way way up, beating out any competitors with sheer determination
2) They grow used to having little and enjoying the heck out of it, and live a quiet life without ambition (cause it could always be worse)

I'm very much a #2 :p

[SUBMAN1]

Jesus lived frugal live, abstaining from wealth despite having the means to acquire it.
Do you think he lived in such a box?
Nah, he was in box construction
Pretty much, being a carpenter.

Letum - And I think you have two versions of frugality here. I guess to have a proper discussion, you would need to define where the borders are. This guy living in a barrel was in a much poorer state. Do I have a point?

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I grew up in a very poor, hard-working family.

People who grow up in very poor, hard-working families have two paths, given proper opportunity:
1) They become hyper-efficient and advance way way up, beating out any competitors with sheer determination
2) They grow used to having little and enjoying the heck out of it, and live a quiet life without ambition (cause it could always be worse)

I'm very much a #2 :p

I think you fall somewhere in between. The fact you even own a computer and use the internet puts you in a very different class from the poor.

-S

[Letum]

I grew up in a very poor, hard-working family.

People who grow up in very poor, hard-working families have two paths, given proper opportunity:
1) They become hyper-efficient and advance way way up, beating out any competitors with sheer determination
2) They grow used to having little and enjoying the heck out of it, and live a quiet life without ambition (cause it could always be worse)

I'm very much a #2 :p

so you can (and you do!) enjoy life even tho you have little wealth? I won't argue with that!

Do you think you are able to enjoy life so much because you have so little, or because you don't strive to obtain more? Perhaps both?

Do you think you would be more happy if you had even less?
i.e. if you didn't have the PC you are using (Im just using the PC as a example, it could be any object you own)

Do you think you would be more happy if you where less bothered about having the small things you enjoy now?
i.e. if you didn't want the PC you are using.

Sorry for all the questions! Your replys are very much appreciated! :)

[CCIP]

I think you fall somewhere in between. The fact you even own a computer and use the internet puts you in a very different class from the poor.

I did say it in past tense. Likewise, I grew up in a very different society that's hard to compare to anything in the West, besides maybe the Great Depression.

I've got no illusions of being a hermit or intentionally poor, though. I'm not heading into a line of work associated with 'living on nothing' (academic), but I'm not heading there for financial reasons. Sometimes my lack of motivation through gain is a real hamper; I keep telling people that I've been born without a competitive bone in my body, and it's very true. That alone will probably always keep me relatively unsuccessful as far as finances go, and modest as far as requirements.

[SUBMAN1]

I keep telling people that I've been born without a competitive bone in my body, and it's very true...

False. I've seen different myself as has many other people in this forum. You have a form of passive competiveness at the very least! :D

[SUBMAN1]

Sorry for all the questions! Your replys are very much appreciated! :)
I have something add Letum - There have been many days when I think that my life would be 'improved' if I didn't have half the crap I own. My thoughts go this direction on the days they break typically though. When the car needs work, or a computer breaks, sometimes I feel that maybe it would be best if I didn't have these things? Is my life too complicated? There is truth to your story above in a way, so that is why I find this thread interesting by the way.

-S

PS. A story as an example is my old SAAB 9000 Aero. A rocket ship no less, but man - I dumped thousands upon thousands into that thing in repairs (way past 5 digits). Some days i wished that thing never existed, but talk about a sleeper car! Mine had a slow wastegate so my pressures built up probably 300 ft/lbs of torque no problem, and maintained it in a perfectly flat torque curve starting at 1800 RPM through 6K. A guy in a Ferrari 512 TR figured this out once and when he gunned it, I didn't go away like he thought I was supposed to. I think he thought his car was broken after that! :D I took his lane from him and there was nothing he could do about it. But of course this extra stress on the tranny took that out no problem too at some point and costs me $5K to get it fixed. Everything that broke on that car cost 4 plus digits to get fixed. It was nuts. Had it by the end and thought my life would be simplier if I got rid of it and I did.

I replaced it with another SAAB - A 93 Aero (With all options so there is more to break! But of course much slower car so it has less stress on it), but that had a warranty - up until last week. Hmmm.

[CCIP]

I keep telling people that I've been born without a competitive bone in my body, and it's very true...
False. I've seen different myself as has many other people in this forum. You have a form of passive competiveness at the very least! :D
Really? That's interesting :p

I'm not arguing with that or anything though. I think passive competitiveness is different from competitiveness as such. I don't think I've ever had any interest in putting myself up as some great #1, and I'm not proud of that either - I'd probably be much more productive in life if I really aspired to some sort of big goals. Instead I just get by on mostly challenging my own laziness.

Oh, and I hate the PC. I wish I could throw it out the window, but then my work, my school, most of my communication with friends and a large part of my hobbies are far more efficient through a PC. It saves me a lot of energy and stress, but it also adds some. If I could do without it, I would.

Note how I said 'hobbies'. That's a sign of where my priorities lie!

[August]

There is a basic and vast difference between forced frugality and frugality by choice.

However Diogenes was not frugal. After all he wasted a perfectly good bowl.

[Letum]

There is a basic and vast difference between forced frugality and frugality by choice.

However Diogenes was not frugal. After all he wasted a perfectly good bowl.

Prahaps "frugality" is not quite the word I am looking for....

I mean: detachment from the material.

[August]

Prahaps "frugality" is not quite the word I am looking for....

I mean: detachment from the material.

I know what you mean. A balance in all things, including the material, is the best course to chart through life I think Letum. As Diogenes shows us there is such a thing as too much detachment. After all the man was living in a barrel and eating with his hands with no visible means of support. That is hardly a life I would choose to live.

To answer your questions specifically:

Is there something inherently good about a frugal life?
Not on it's own. There should be a reason for frugality beyond for its own sake.

Is there a kind of spiritual contentedness that can only be found when the material is cast aside?
Possibly depending on what that material is. Like if said material was both unattainable and unnecessary and the pursuit of it was destroying ones life or hurting others.

Is frugality just a kind of laziness that forces other people to work harder?
Again, depends on the situation.

At what point does frugality become neglect?
Neglect? Of whom or what? Not sure where you're going with this one.

Do the frugal miss out on important parts of life? or conversely, do the wealthy miss out on important parts of life?
Possibly and possibly, as all it depends on what you consider important, but wealth is not the opposite of frugality. One can be rich and frugal just as one can be poor and wasteful, indeed the degree of either can be the result of frugality or the lack of it.

[Iceman]

Matthew 14

[24] But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
[25] And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
[26] And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
[27] But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
[28] And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
[29] And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
[30] But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
[31] And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?


The lesson here I learn and try to apply to my life is, when I turn my eyes from the Lord is when I sink...the cares of life begin to make me sink but as long as I keep my eyes on my Lord I can walk on water with him.Anything that turns the eyes from the Lord "can" cause man to stumble.Yes easier for a camel to through the eye of a neddle than a rich man to enter to heaven...not impossible but dang hard and I think we all can see why....so many divers temptations and distractions.

I have been blessed with every thing in life I have ever prayed for...a family,a way to provide for them and yet I know and have instructed my wife that the Lord giveth and taketh away....like Job (http://online-bible.netfirms.com/Job_1.shtml).

Take NoThing for granted all is from the Lord and to be given thanks for.

frugal? yes I think it is really a blessing in disguise for many and the poor and destitute are a test for the rich...

[Iceman]

2) They grow used to having little and enjoying the heck out of it, and live a quiet life without ambition (cause it could always be worse)


:up:

[Letum]

At what point does frugality become neglect?
Neglect? Of whom or what? Not sure where you're going with this one.

Yes, I should have made my self more clear.

Here is an example:
A Benedictine monk practices sexual abstinence to devote his life more fully to his religion. He may also abstain from his secret desire to drive fast cars.
By denying him self these hedonisms, is he denying part of him self and neglecting parts of who he is?

I'm talking about neglect of parts of ones own personality.



wealth is not the opposite of frugality. One can be rich and frugal just as one can be poor and wasteful, indeed the degree of either can be the result of frugality or the lack of it.

One can be detached from the material, but have many material possessions?

I suppose there are (or have been) many totally abstaining and frugal monks who sleep on simple beds and eat basic food inside of million dollar monasteries which own hundreds of acres of land.

It's a very interesting thought, but doesn't quite seam right somehow.... I can't work out quite why atm.

[geetrue]

The only reason to throw away your bowl is when you buy disposable bowls ...

Never throw away a stainless steel bowl ...
they keep your fingers cleaner :know: