I miss Silent Hunter 1

[mcoca]

Years and years ago (gosh, I must be getting old), I was completely hooked to the original Silent Hunter. I played it for years, despite the fact that nobody ever bothered to translate the patches to the Spanish version, so I was stuck playing the retail version (1.0?).

I just loved the excitement, the way you went from hunter to prey in an instant when the first torpedo went off. I loved being chased by destroyers diving like crazy, taking my boat to the outer edges of test depth with an eye on the bathythermograph, hoping to find a thermal layer before I hit bottom or the boat was crushed.

Somehow this excitement is just missing in SH4. Yesterday I sunk my 50th merchant or so. I just snapped, and went into a group of unescorted merchants, surfaced and guns blazing. Why bother taking the stealth approach, when there is no risk? I've only been depth charged once in the entire game, and the destroyer gave up a minute after losing contact and returned to its escort station. I continued my approach and sunk a couple of ships.

You can sink tens of thousands of tons without seeing a destroyer, and when you do, it's with a convoy so large it can't really protect it. I miss those small convoys from SH1: 2-3 merchants protected by 1-2 destroyers. The fight was almost personal. Maybe not exactly realistic, but much more fun. My average SH1 career lasted two or three patrols, and generally ended when I tried to attack a task force. Now I only get killed by aircraft.

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy SH4 a lot, even with all the small problems, or I wouldn't have spent all this time playing it. It has many small details that I missed in other subsims. I really like how you can keep requesting new orders that send you all over the Pacific. But that special touch is missing.

Does anybody else feel the same way, or am I just suffering from Grampa Simpson syndrome?

[GOZO]

Sounds like it's time for the NYGM-team to take on SHIV. It was the same thing with SHIII before the proper mods were installed like the "anti hummingbird" mod and the new 'Evil escorts':D

Teddy????? pleeease

OB

[Zepheron]

Just finnished a patrol in SH 1, man that sim is still fun. The radar set and destroyer aggressiveness in SH 1 is far superior to SH 4 so far. I'm sure that will change in time. Till then SH 1 will stay on the hard drive.

[AirborneTD]

I don't know. I'm not seeing wimpy DDs. I was on my first patrol in Balao heading for the E China Sea when I ran across a convoy. I lined up between escorts and put torpedoes into 2 large freighters. Escorts came in my area but I evaded. I stayed too close hoping to polish off a cripple when I was spotted and forced deep. I was damaged severely even after dodging under the layer. I was just able to save the boat and limp away. Both periscopes out and my battery would not charge above 40. Plus, even after diverting to Mios Woendi to top off fuel, my battery was not repaired and I had a fuel leak that caused me to run out before I even made it to Johnston IS.

I do miss the radar screen from SHI, though.

[Chock]

SH1 still works on my computer (I was a real sucker for it, got all the mission patrol disks too). Nevertheless, looking at it today does offer some interesting comparisons.

The graphics are obviously not as cool, but the 2D sub stations are in most cases slightly easier to use, and wow factor and eye candy aside, many people have expressed a preference for this approach to oft-used stations.

In terms of functionallity, there is little difference between the systems simulated in earlier sub sims such as Silent Service, Aces of the Deep and the original Silent Hunter. For example: Silent Hunter 1 offers the following.. Control Room, Persicope, TBT, Bridge, Charts, TDC, Gauges, Damage Control, Radar and Deck Gun stations. Also Accelerated Time, Full Range of Engine speeds, Emergency Blow, Crash Dive, Persicope Depth, Radar Depth and Surface commands.

How complex the simulation of these things is, is another matter, although everything from adjustable torp speeds to offset gyro angles is certainly present in the original Silent Hunter.

Having said that, the eye-candy aspect for many is a big deal, and while it's not such a biggie for me, it is very cool. (in short, yes I like it, but its lack would not have been a deal-breaker for me). But you would have to be blind to not notice how far the submarine simulation has come in terms of looks with the release of SH4 though.

It's nice to be able to 'walk' about in your submarine a bit, but I think what people would really like is: 2D stations for use, AND to be able to walk around the entire interior of a submarine in a manner similar to a first person shooter, This is clearly possible to do, since you can do it in one of the missions in the Game 'Hidden and Dangerous 2', where you have to capture an enigma encoder from a U-Boat. It's obvious to me that many would also welcome this from the responses posted to the 'open hatch mod' for SH3, which has been welcomed and praised almost universally by SH3 skippers, and is indeed an impressive mod.

Shift F2 in SH4 is okay for the curious, but it is hardly an emulation of walking about, so in that sense, things haven't moved on from SH1 as much as they could have done. To do something like having a boat you could move around inside would obviously require quite a bit more modelling than what SH4 has as standard, but it is far from impossible, and a similar thing has in fact been implemented in the MMORPG 'Vanguard' where players can have their own ship, sail it about and walk around on it. Interestingly, one of the problems with this initially, was people falling off their ships at sea, but in a game where first-person perspective is the prime mode, this is understandable, and it has been solved (by the way, for all of you complaining about SH4 bugs, if you want to see a game with bugs, check out Vanguard).

Personally, I would like a sub sim where you could walk up to the thing at the dock, go up a gangplank and get in it seamlessly and then sail off in career mode. Whether any simulation developer will ever do this is anyone's guess.

The 'putting you there' approach to sims has been dabbled with on occasion, notably in Combat Flight Simulator 3 (which many condemned, but I personally quite liked). In that you started your mission sat on the airfield near your aeroplane. It stopped short of letting you walk around the thing, but added elements where your character's ability was able to be developed over time with 'points' you could assign to things like G-Tolerance, ability to spot enemy aircraft etc. B-17 2: The Mighty Eighth (another flight sim well loved and well modded by many) also did this kind of thing and it added a personal touch to what, in simulations, can be sometimes a little clinical. IL-2 (yet another flight sim) went the opposite way, and it suffers greatly for that in my opinion, in that it's a great sim, but it has perhaps the most soul-less interface of any game ever.

Many lament the passing of the paper manual as a nice thing to have (me included) and this is certainly one area where older sims win hands-down, however, forums such as subsim and the ability to easily search the net for information have made the paper manual less of an absolute necessity these days. Nevertheless, with the current solution for many games of putting the manual on PDF, I think it's fair to say that's always something of a disapppointment for most people when they open up their latest game or sim. To be fair though, the manual for the original Silent Hunter only runs to about 20 more pages than the current SH4 manual (both of which are printed), and the original SH manual is not vastly detailed. In fact it compares miserably with the Silent Service 2 manual, which pre-dates it by about four years and runs to 128 pages. So even at that stage we could see a trend starting.

I think your rose-tinted spectacles may be less rose-tinted than you suspect with regard to the original SH, but things have moved on all the same.

[Uber Gruber]

Excellent post.....totaly agree. :yep::up:

[TDK1044]

I miss my first car, but on balance I'd rather have the one I have now.

[mcoca]

Silent Hunter 1 offers the following.. Control Room, Persicope, TBT, Bridge, Charts, TDC, Gauges, Damage Control, Radar and Deck Gun stations. Also Accelerated Time, Full Range of Engine speeds, Emergency Blow, Crash Dive, Persicope Depth, Radar Depth and Surface commands.

Don't forget "Abandon ship". Whenever I used it, I felt slightly good. At least I had managed to save my crew.

The 'putting you there' approach to sims has been dabbled with on occasion, notably in Combat Flight Simulator 3 (which many condemned, but I personally quite liked). In that you started your mission sat on the airfield near your aeroplane.

You can do that in the Operation Flashpoint series, including ArmA. Although the flight model in those games is not exactly great :)

To be fair though, the manual for the original Silent Hunter only runs to about 20 more pages than the current SH4 manual (both of which are printed), and the original SH manual is not vastly detailed. In fact it compares miserably with the Silent Service 2 manual, which pre-dates it by about four years and runs to 128 pages. So even at that stage we could see a trend starting.
Don't talk to me about the first SH manual. I got the version translated into Spanish, and it must have been translated by Babelfish 0.1, or by someone who knew nothing about ships. It called carriers "cargo ship", for example.

I miss my first car, but on balance I'd rather have the one I have now.

Okay, you've got a point :D I don't think I could go back to SH1 either, but I wish some more of that style of gameplay could be brought back to SH4.

[Sailor Steve]

You can still play SH1 if you want. There's a downloadable program called 'DosBox' that lets you run all the old classics.

I too loved SH1, and I had the collected Silent Hunter Commander's Edition, with all the patrol discs added in, plus a new one they never released separately. Until a year ago I used to go back and play it and Aces Of The Deep occassionally. I liked the eye candy in SH3, but not the play so much until I found the right mods I liked and SH3 Commander, which added a lot of cool stuff reminiscent of AOD. I'm hoping SH4 will end up the same way eventually.

As for 2D screens and systems, I remember when SH3 was still under development. We were talking about what we wanted and expected, and I said "I'd be perfectly happy with an updated Aces, with SH2-style graphics. I felt the same way about SH1 and SH4, but of course now I like the 3D interiors and all the crew doing things, especially up on the bridge.

We'll see what the future brings.

[CCIP]

I never did play SHI though I got no doubt it was a great game back in the day. I did play Silent Service and that's why I'm here today, because I loved it to death.

I'm starting to miss SHIII, too. With my time restricted, I lately had to choose and I'm about ready to officially decomission SHIII.

And re: soul / soullessness factor - I don't think it's fair to accuse SHIV of doing that. As far as games in general and sims specifically go, you gotta admit that it went the longest way to put in some of those roleplaying elements - more so than any other sim I can remember for the past 6-7 years.

[FIREWALL]

Still available on ebay . Average price $4.00 floppy

As SS pointed out need to use DOSBOX.

[FAdmiral]

Yes, I had & played many, many hours of SH1, SH2 +(Destroyer Command)
SH3 and now SH4. The lackluster DDs (unrealistic AI) I had in my first install
of SH4 almost turned me off but then I read other posts that had just
the opposite reaction. I tried some adjustment to the various files but just
could not get the AI to perform. So as last resort, I uninstalled game completely
and reinstalled. SURPRISE !! Now I had a game that was giving me trouble.
Pings were heard from DDs (never heard them in first install) and I was taking
damage unless I did everything smart. I had my game back....
CONCLUSION: Something didn't load right in the first install, end of line.......

JIM

[richoahu]

You can still play SH1 if you want. There's a downloadable program called 'DosBox' that lets you run all the old classics.


i downloaded the dos box but can't figure out how to use it :-(

anyone got a step by step list on how to get it to play SH1?

thank you for any help!

[Hartmann]

A great sim !!

I have it running with dosbox and d-fend and still is a great sim, also is a good point see what differences in gameplay with sh4, and in some things still superior. :yep:

Some 2d interface and screens are still very cool like, tdc, damage management, captain cabin with log book and calendar, and finaly radar interface. with clear images and easy to read.

Finally the gameplay, scorts doing well his work, reacting when the submarine is detected and dangerous in depth charging. ships zigzagging and scaping at full speed when the first fish hit a target...

And the sound, very cool, if the sounds could be extracted and use with sh4 ... but not for a release mod , only for personal use.....(copyrights and law issues)
Sh4 have nice graphics but the gameplay was developed with sh1

[MaciejK]

I had the same with SH3 and AotD. I thought I'm gonna try AotD until SH3 is patched enough. But even wwith all the fascinating thingies from Aces, it couldn't beat the SH3-with-bugs. The car reference posted above is great here. I just think we were all younger and the memories of the days that passed and won't return makes the picture of SH1 a bit one-sided, forgeting about the bugs and remembering only good emotions. just like humans do, subsimmers too;)

Now I'm off to my next patrol near Luzon...

S!

M

[heartc]

The lackluster DDs (unrealistic AI) I had in my first install
of SH4 almost turned me off but then I read other posts that had just
the opposite reaction. I tried some adjustment to the various files but just
could not get the AI to perform. So as last resort, I uninstalled game completely
and reinstalled. SURPRISE !! Now I had a game that was giving me trouble.
Pings were heard from DDs (never heard them in first install) and I was taking
damage unless I did everything smart. I had my game back....
CONCLUSION: Something didn't load right in the first install, end of line.......

JIM

I heard that several times from different members by now, so while I give that possibility some merit, it doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Either the AI skill is *so random* in game that it seems like you play a different game every other day, or it's really the installation process that is bugged as opposed to the game itself. Thing is, I've never yet heard of a bugged installation process of a game that would install different AI characteristics / logics etc. It's hard to believe.

P.S.: I also installed the game twice by now and did not see a difference in AI behaviour at all. I still get dumb DDs where I can run surfaced pretty closely in daylight (albeit in rough seas in a recent case, but visibility good, I think they should have seen me) and other times they spot my scope just like that. Have not heard pinging yet. But I'm still in 1942, so maybe there were less active-sonar equipped Jap DDs underway.

[viper771]

I loved SH1!!!!! I liked the narwhal? class since it had 2 deck guns, but took FOREVER to dive!!

I don't remember older games being as buggy. I think I went for months and months without any patches since i didn't have the interent at the time. I thought SH1 was hard at times but very fun. I would like to get the commanders edition.. I have the orig game, and the 2 patrol disks somewhere in storage back in the states. There are quite a few old dos games that I would like to play again. Maybe I should get dos box too :)

[aanker]

i downloaded the dos box but can't figure out how to use it :-(

anyone got a step by step list on how to get it to play SH1?

thank you for any help!
Here you go: http://www.subsowespac.org/silent-hunter-dosbox.shtml

Yep, I am beginning to like SH4 the more I play it but SH1 - SHCE is still my favorite Sub sim!

Art

[momo55]

First game i ever dit buy was SH1 and played it for years on my old 486 DX together with Silent Thunder as well...it's all she could take :rotfl: . Still have them in working order .:yep:

[richoahu]

i downloaded the dos box but can't figure out how to use it :-(

anyone got a step by step list on how to get it to play SH1?

thank you for any help!
Here you go: http://www.subsowespac.org/silent-hunter-dosbox.shtml

Yep, I am beginning to like SH4 the more I play it but SH1 - SHCE is still my favorite Sub sim!

Art


eww, little more to it then i thought! no wonder i couldn't get it to work! will try again later! thank you!

[IsaanRanger]

Ill try to get DOS BOX but sadly some of my old DOS games dont have a internal clock, they felt technology would not advance too much. Such as Aces over the Pacific and BHawks 1942 and BOB. You would lose your ammo in 2 seconds when I tried it on a Pentium 200mmx, when it was really made for the 386. :P

I wish I could find my TF1942 disks. Id put that back on as well as Silent Service 2.

[kakemann]

I never played that. It was good?

[simpliciter]

There used to be a program called slomo used to slow your computer down to 386-486 levels for use with old games. Not sure if it still exists but if it does, it probably works in dos box for games that run too fast on new computers.

[simpliciter]

I'm wondering if some of the variation some of you are seeing in DD aggressiveness has anything to do with when you are in the war. At the beginning they should suck, but should start to majorly increase in effectiveness by 1943. I still haven't gotten killed by em unless I do something really stupid like get too close with time advanced, but its hard to tell if its they that suck or me that is just doing a good job avoiding them. I have been a bit puzzled why cargo ships don't speed away at top speed when i blow up a ship next to them. They do evade.. but mostly by zig zagging.. possibly they just can't go faster than 8 knots? And how realistic is it for convoys to be travelling at 2 knots? That seems to be common when I find them.

[FAdmiral]

The lackluster DDs (unrealistic AI) I had in my first install
of SH4 almost turned me off but then I read other posts that had just
the opposite reaction. I tried some adjustment to the various files but just
could not get the AI to perform. So as last resort, I uninstalled game completely
and reinstalled. SURPRISE !! Now I had a game that was giving me trouble.
Pings were heard from DDs (never heard them in first install) and I was taking
damage unless I did everything smart. I had my game back....
CONCLUSION: Something didn't load right in the first install, end of line.......

JIM

I heard that several times from different members by now, so while I give that possibility some merit, it doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Either the AI skill is *so random* in game that it seems like you play a different game every other day, or it's really the installation process that is bugged as opposed to the game itself. Thing is, I've never yet heard of a bugged installation process of a game that would install different AI characteristics / logics etc. It's hard to believe.

P.S.: I also installed the game twice by now and did not see a difference in AI behaviour at all. I still get dumb DDs where I can run surfaced pretty closely in daylight (albeit in rough seas in a recent case, but visibility good, I think they should have seen me) and other times they spot my scope just like that. Have not heard pinging yet. But I'm still in 1942, so maybe there were less active-sonar equipped Jap DDs underway.

You said you have reinstalled the game twice already? Did you also delete all
files in the Registry before you reinstalled. I found that the uninstall did NOT
delete all of them in the registry. I did that manually. It might be the cause
of the lackluster AI in the game you are experiencing...

JIM

[MarkShot]

I just installed SH3/SH4 on new PC. I also have SHCE and AOD running on the same system with DOSBOX.

Side note: You don't need a slowdown utility with DOSBOX, since you can arbitrarily control how many CPU cycles you allocate to your game.

I have yet to form an opinion on SH3, but certainly AOD has been my favorite subsim despite the crisper graphics in SHCE.

Now, here is the interesting thing. If you want to play SH3 totally realistic, then you need to give up the external and event camera. Doing that, you give up much of the eye candy which the game provides. The 3D crew gets old after a while as time passes by submerged. Thus, the two games are much less disimilar when played like that. You look at AOD (or SHCE for that matter) and you'll find all the major features there for a sub simulation. {A flight sim can have a wonderful 3D world and enhanced realism due to the graphics. However, a sub sim with a wonderful 3D world and realistic play are at odds with each other.}

So, for me the jury is still out on the more modern SH3/SH4. All with all come down to game play. How good is the hunt and how good is disengaging and evading the enemy? There is no reason to immediately assume that SH3/4 will be superior in this department. I have quite a few older games that blow away anything in the same category over the last few years in terms of quality game play.

The basic realities of the industry and hardware are:

(1) 10-15 years ago you could easily code very sophisticated game play with the number of CPU cycles available, but little could be done with graphics.

(2) As a result of #1, a much larger portion of projects focused on game play as opposed to art work.

(3) Increased CPU and GPU hardware often meant less time devoted on future projects to basics of game play.

(4) 2D is much simpler to code than 3D. Thus, as games went 3D, development became much more expensive and labor intensive. So, even less time was invested game play basics.

Thus, I will not be suprised to find after perhaps spending three months with SH3 that I may end up back in DOSBOX with AOD.

[Torpex752]

I have never encountered dumb AI, I wonder if the realism % has anything to do with it? I play at 100%, so I'm not picking on anyone but what % are those who encounter dumb AI playing at, just for curiosity?

Frank
:cool:

[jdkbph]

I totally agree with the sentiment expressed here regarding the 3D systems interface found on most "modern" vehicle type simulations.

I hate it.

No... maybe that's too strong a word.

I *despise* it (there, that's better).

The 3D cockpit interface ruined Janes' F18 for me, and I hoped that game would represent the end of a failed experiment. Not to be. The 3D systems interfaces you find in many sims these days sacrifice accuracy, detail and ease of use for eye candy. Their only practical function, as far as I can tell, is to provide 5 or 10 minutes of marketing WOW! factor.

While it is commonly argued that the 3D interface contributes to the immersion factor - and on the surface (no pun intended) it sounds like a no brainer - I find that the opposite is true. A computer mouse is no substitute for coordinated head, body and hand movement, and a computer monitor cannot provide the necessary stereoscopic depth perception. The technology to do the latter may be there someday soon (and where's my flying car? I was promised a flying car by the year 2000, dammit!), but we are prolly decades away from the former... at least in the home/entertainment market.

So to summarize my rant... 3D simulation system interfaces suck! If game developers must waste time building them for my games (in lieu of investing resources in other more important areas, such as game play and software quality assurance) at least provide an optional 2D interface we can use to actually PLAY the game once we get beyond the initial "Golly Gee" stage.

JD

[stormbird]

Aces of the Deep was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than the first 2 Silent Hunters. Sure they were worth a bit of a play but gimme AotD any day.

[Capt.LoneRanger]

I miss SilentService :-?

[ijozic]

B-17 2: The Mighty Eighth (another flight sim well loved and well modded by many) also did this kind of thing and it added a personal touch to what, in simulations, can be sometimes a little clinical. IL-2 (yet another flight sim) went the opposite way, and it suffers greatly for that in my opinion, in that it's a great sim, but it has perhaps the most soul-less interface of any game ever.

I agree completely and I'd like to add Lock On as a representative of a modern sim which has the same issue.

[Fer32]

Years and years ago (gosh, I must be getting old), I was completely hooked to the original Silent Hunter. I played it for years, despite the fact that nobody ever bothered to translate the patches to the Spanish version, so I was stuck playing the retail version (1.0?).

I just loved the excitement, the way you went from hunter to prey in an instant when the first torpedo went off. I loved being chased by destroyers diving like crazy, taking my boat to the outer edges of test depth with an eye on the bathythermograph, hoping to find a thermal layer before I hit bottom or the boat was crushed.

Somehow this excitement is just missing in SH4. Yesterday I sunk my 50th merchant or so. I just snapped, and went into a group of unescorted merchants, surfaced and guns blazing. Why bother taking the stealth approach, when there is no risk? I've only been depth charged once in the entire game, and the destroyer gave up a minute after losing contact and returned to its escort station. I continued my approach and sunk a couple of ships.

You can sink tens of thousands of tons without seeing a destroyer, and when you do, it's with a convoy so large it can't really protect it. I miss those small convoys from SH1: 2-3 merchants protected by 1-2 destroyers. The fight was almost personal. Maybe not exactly realistic, but much more fun. My average SH1 career lasted two or three patrols, and generally ended when I tried to attack a task force. Now I only get killed by aircraft.

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy SH4 a lot, even with all the small problems, or I wouldn't have spent all this time playing it. It has many small details that I missed in other subsims. I really like how you can keep requesting new orders that send you all over the Pacific. But that special touch is missing.

Does anybody else feel the same way, or am I just suffering from Grampa Simpson syndrome?

mcoca, for me the excitement only occurs the first time I play a new genre that I have not played before, for example, my very first game happened to be a flight simulator: Red Baron 3D, and I was hooked inmediately, so I started to buy a lot of the known good fligh sims out there but, I never felt the same like my first time with Red Baron, in fact, I started to feel a little boured. Then, I saw in a magazine add about a realistic FPS combat simulator, so I gave it a try. Wow, it was the great Operation Flashpoint:rock: . When I played it , I did feel fear, ansiety, joy and exciment trough the excelent campaing so, after some time, my house was full of every new FPS that arrived, but guess what, it was never the same feeling I had with OF, see the point? When we have already played lots and lots of games, most of them about the same period of time and war, its never like the first time:cry:

[jmr]

Thus, I will not be suprised to find after perhaps spending three months with SH3 that I may end up back in DOSBOX with AOD.
It's been ages since I last played AOD but what I love most about SHIII and IV is having the ability to do manual plotting along with manually entering target parameters into the TDC. Again it's been awhile and you can correct me on this, but in AOD, EVERYTHING was done automatically for you, was it not? I recall very little player input in the whole TDC process.

[heartc]

Again it's been awhile and you can correct me on this, but in AOD, EVERYTHING was done automatically for you, was it not? I recall very little player input in the whole TDC process.
You are fully correct. In AOD, there was only what we today know as "Auto-Targetting", even when playing at 100% realism.

In SHI, however, you could go *fully* manual on the TDC if you dared. And really, the TDC representation itself was more comprehensive and realistic than SHIV. Well, the *look* of the dials is more true to history in SHIV, but the *function* and dials available was more realistic in SHI. You also had a "BEARING, MARK" Button there. What was missing on the other hand was a Stadimeter, but you could get range nontheless by the increments on the periscope lines when knowing the masthead heights. So, while the *functioning* of the TDC in SHI was nothing short of perfect in terms of realism, it was hampered by the technology available back in 1996, which had the ships - while good looking - only rendered in 2D, so the AOBs of the ships you saw on screen changed ("jumped") visibly only in steps of some 15-20 degrees, which made manual targetting pretty tough. The way out of this was using the overhead "God's eye view" map, which would show angles accurately for every single degree, but at the same time provide you with, well, an unrealistic "God's eye view".

So, in the end, I think it would not have been bad to stick to the near perfect simulation of the TDC - that SHI provided - in SHIV, esecially now that we got the graphics power and technology to also use it in a realistic manner without the need to refer to a God's eye view overhead map to input proper data. You had a shortened number of dials in SHI while looking through the periscope, similar to what we have now in SHIV (still more dials though), but you *also* could raise the TDC screen alone which would fill your entire monitor showing also the other important dials all on one screen. That was some pretty good ****. Too bad we now only have this fake TDC output screen in the 3D interior instead of a usable 2D one as in SHI. Really, sometimes this rush for 3d and eye-candy is just pointless.

Still, there are only exactly two games which ever atempted to simulate the US TDC as it was on US subs in the PTO - and these games are SHI and SHIV. And in both, the main features of it are covered just about right. SHI did it better, but you could not really use it in a realistic manner cause of the gfx limitations. SHIV does the TDC itself more spartanic than SHI, but you can use it in a more realistic manner. So, in the end, I would call it a draw. ;)

[Torpex752]

Again it's been awhile and you can correct me on this, but in AOD, EVERYTHING was done automatically for you, was it not? I recall very little player input in the whole TDC process.
You are fully correct. In AOD, there was only what we today know as "Auto-Targetting", even when playing at 100% realism.

In SHI, however, you could go *fully* manual on the TDC if you dared. And really, the TDC representation itself was more comprehensive and realistic than SHIV. Well, the *look* of the dials is more true to history in SHIV, but the *function* and dials available was more realistic in SHI. You also had a "BEARING, MARK" Button there. What was missing on the other hand was a Stadimeter, but you could get range nontheless by the increments on the periscope lines when knowing the masthead heights. So, while the *functioning* of the TDC in SHI was nothing short of perfect in terms of realism, it was hampered by the technology available back in 1996, which had the ships - while good looking - only rendered in 2D, so the AOBs of the ships you saw on screen changed ("jumped") visibly only in steps of some 15-20 degrees, which made manual targetting pretty tough. The way out of this was using the overhead "God's eye view" map, which would show angles accurately for every single degree, but at the same time provide you with, well, an unrealistic "God's eye view".

So, in the end, I think it would not have been bad to stick to the near perfect simulation of the TDC - that SHI provided - in SHIV, esecially now that we got the graphics power and technology to also use it in a realistic manner without the need to refer to a God's eye view overhead map to input proper data. You had a shortened number of dials in SHI while looking through the periscope, similar to what we have now in SHIV (still more dials though), but you *also* could raise the TDC screen alone which would fill your entire monitor showing also the other important dials all on one screen. That was some pretty good ****. Too bad we now only have this fake TDC output screen in the 3D interior instead of a usable 2D one as in SHI. Really, sometimes this rush for 3d and eye-candy is just pointless.

Still, there are only exactly two games which ever atempted to simulate the US TDC as it was on US subs in the PTO - and these games are SHI and SHIV. And in both, the main features of it are covered just about right. SHI did it better, but you could not really use it in a realistic manner cause of the gfx limitations. SHIV does the TDC itself more spartanic than SHI, but you can use it in a more realistic manner. So, in the end, I would call it a draw. ;)

You are correct about the TDC vs grafics in SH1! I can honestly say that that TDC was/is the best TDC to date.

Frank
:cool:

[Hartmann]

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2644/sh020lk3.jpg


http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8291/sh022yb5.jpg

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8082/sh024hh2.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

One of the things I do like about SH3 (and I presume SH4 is the same) is the ability to have realistic maps, in the sense of not seeing everything that's within range every time the periscope is up. I'm a huge fan of the 'Assisted Plotting Mod' for SH3, and hope to see one like it in SH4 soon.

On the other hand, Hartmann, those screens do bring out the nostalgia.

[jhelix70]

Those pics made me nostalgic :oops:

I miss the radar dispay. Clear, 2D panels and the radar actually worked properly.

[melin71]

Im too played silent hunter 1, silen service, and something many seems not remeber at all. a game called up periscope. i remember that game, to be very great. but that is VERY old game, i played that on my comandor 64 back in -84 or something like that. but very strange..i never play AOD...what i remember.

I too miss more interaktiv with the sub. and I allmost feel trapped. you got only 3 postioen in the sub. commander room, brighde, and tower. problem with this..less interaktiv are that you can play the game only with use of your map and periscope. you NEVER need too be in commander room or brige. becrouse..what shall you do there??.

But if you had to interaktiv with statioen and stuff in commander room. then we talking. if you had to walk to radio station for get latest message, and so on. if you want to see the map. you walk to the map tabel. that had greated a more interaktiv sub, you wants to bridge..you climb up for the ladder. no fast buttons to get to station. i think this should make at least me more the..im there feeling. problem with this...I guess....I will never see a game that will put me REALLY in a sub..i should not be surprised if we only get the bridge next version. maby if some other company starts to make sub games...maby.

[Chock]

I'm fully in agreement with probably most people who have messed around with computer games and simulations for years, in that there was perhaps more 'love' put into the gameplay in older games. I do believe that if 3D environments for the interior of a submarine are going to be added to a game, then they ought to have some functionality over and above mere eye candy.

Oddly enough, flight simulator developers have been slow to do this too, despite the more apparent requirement for it to add to immersion and the fact that flight sims tend to 'push the envelope' in terms of 3D graphics advances. In its current state, it is possible to 'walk' around the interior of your Boeing 747 in MS Flight Simulator, but without any passengers on board (although this is starting to happen) or any real reason to do it, it merely becomes wow factor eye candy.

One innovation that is good in this respect however, is Track IR, which does help tremendously with flight sims, and not just combat ones either. It is truly something to behold in the brilliant gliding simulator 'Condor'. A genuine advance not just for the sake of 'because we can do it'.

Those who were in at the start of SH multiplayer implementation will doubtless remember the shaky multiplayer performance that went with it, which was particularly annoying to behold when you'd spent a couple of hours setting up for an attack with a buddy, only to have your session bomb out. SH4 is massively more stable in this respect and so there is one advance that earlier subsims cannot match, given that most of them didn't even have the option. Although again it lags behind flight sims in that the current MS FS will allow you to link up online and have your friend as the co-pilot alongside you, which is great fun by the way. There were promises that this was going to happen in Microprose's B-17 2 some years ago, but sadly that never happened, nevertheless several current combat flight sims will let two or more people be in the same aircraft, and this seems to be something of a required feature of them these days. so it's not hard to see that future renditions of SH might allow you to be the XO or TDC operator on a sub while your buddy is the skipper - I bet that will lead to some Run Silent, Run Deep-style disagreements!

Back in the realms of submarine simulations and what might make them more involved so that they are a genuine advance on those of yesteryear, I should like to see more involvment with the crew (in either 2D or 3D). Having someone panic because of shell shock 'Johann style' or dealing with insubordination are just two ideas that might be fun. As would having your simulated XO make a tactical suggestion to you. Offering you a couple of choices in matters would also be nice to see, such as: 'Do you want to cannibalise the radar set to get your radio working?', or whatever.

There is still plenty of scope for sub sims to improve, that's for sure.

[MarkShot]

You are correct. AOD only has auto-targetting. SH1 had auto or manual.

However, the auto-targetting of AOD is not the fool proof long range solutions which you get in SH3 when you use auto-targetting or ask the weapon officer. Thus, missing quite frequently happened at long ranges. I am not sure if crew skill had an impact on this. There are three levels in AOD.

Although I can appreciate that there are those who prefer to completely manually calculate their solutions (doing everything off the map with plotting and math), I would be happy with falible auto-targetting similar to AOD. I like to play the role of the subs captain. I am responsible for the main decisions: when, where, and how to attack and how to disengage/evade following the attack. I don't feel the need to necessarily workout AOB or speed from screw turns or wake form. In real life, there was a whole tracking party/attack team which handled this. Although the captain did a lot of it when submerged with sightings, it was not a one man show. So, trying to do this all yourself while letting the game run in realtime is perhaps beyond realistic.

With that said, I think SH3's notepad approach to solution creation is a good game play/realism compromise. It forces the player to bring his boat in much closer if he hopes to sink anything. This increases challenge, since the window for successful disengagement becomes much smaller. (Generally, I begin disengaging as soon as my tubes are empty without waiting to see the results of the attack.)

[doggydoggo]

I didn't get into sub sims until well after SH2 came out, and I bought it off of ebay for a couple bucks. I spent many a great hours with that one. I miss the voices of that crew. Very distinctive, indeed. I noticed with SHIII that engines stoped overheating. I can't tell you how many frustrating times I had to stop pursuing a convoy or a DD caught up witgh me because my engines overheated. lol.

While I do appreciate the great work UBI did with the 3D graphics in SH4, the environment isn't very interactive. I know the game got pushed out early, but it would be cool to manually work the bow or stern planes or other duties within the 3D interface.

I suppose that will be on the wishlist for SH5.

BTW, I highly recommend the Ultimate Sound mod, as it adds a lot of personality to your crew when you surface or dive. Fun!

[heartc]

Although I can appreciate that there are those who prefer to completely manually calculate their solutions (doing everything off the map with plotting and math), I would be happy with falible auto-targetting similar to AOD. I like to play the role of the subs captain. I am responsible for the main decisions: when, where, and how to attack and how to disengage/evade following the attack. I don't feel the need to necessarily workout AOB or speed from screw turns or wake form. In real life, there was a whole tracking party/attack team which handled this. Although the captain did a lot of it when submerged with sightings, it was not a one man show. So, trying to do this all yourself while letting the game run in realtime is perhaps beyond realistic.

I don't know where this notion comes from, but you don't have to calc squat for manual targetting. You just enter what you see. End of story. And this is what the captain did iRL, too. People tend to confuse plotting and targetting and talk about them like they're the same while they're not. To simulate a plotting party, ship positions should be auto entered on the map screen everytime you *manually* take a target position through the scope / TBT and then the plotting party would go on with plotting course and speed.

So, in fact SHIII's notepad approach as well as SHIV are no compromise, but the real deal from what the skipper in most cases did. Well, in theory you could improve on it by entering the data via voice comms. Turning away from the scope and start plotting on the map yourself on the other hand - which is not neccessary for targetting and shooting though - is not neccessarily realistic.

[mcoca]

As would having your simulated XO make a tactical suggestion to you.
You say that, and I get this image of Lieutenant Clippy, your XO. "It looks like you're attacking a convoy. Would you like help?" :p

Seriously, good idea, but that kind of thing would require a real investment in AI, or it would be seriously annoying.

[EAF274 Johan]

And re: soul / soullessness factor - I don't think it's fair to accuse SHIV of doing that. As far as games in general and sims specifically go, you gotta admit that it went the longest way to put in some of those roleplaying elements - more so than any other sim I can remember for the past 6-7 years.
Very true!

[Chock]

Lieutenant Clippy, your XO. "It looks like you're attacking a convoy. Would you like help?"

LMAO :rotfl:

[LukeFF]

Lieutenant Clippy, your XO. "It looks like you're attacking a convoy. Would you like help?"
LMAO :rotfl:

Why, yes! Report to Tube 1 for a "special mission."

[C-4]

The captain handled the sightings and periscope/TBT measurements, while the fire control party entered them, as far as I know from Silent Victory. That is, unless the CO adopts the Morton-O'Kane method of XO manning periscope, which didn't happen too often.

[MarkShot]

Does SH3/4 model the high periscope (using the scope to conduct wider searches when the sub is surfaced) like was done in SH1? AOD, on the other hand, made no distinctions between what you could see with the scope submerged or surfaced.

Thanks.

[melin71]

oboy...are we so old that we are the only one that remember silent hunter 1? :rotfl:

my son are soon in the same age when i started to play........i hope i still love subsim and stuff when i reach 50. 36 today and for 15 years ago they talked mutch about virturial realitie..bad spell i know. what did happen with that?...do i have to wait 15 years more to get my virutall googles and stand there on the bridge...and FEEL that i stand there...oboy... i have heard that the are some gooles out there to buy..but the games suck and the googles sucks and are expensive and more then 15 min and you damage your eyes. hope someday this will come.

[C-4]

oboy...are we so old that we are the only one that remember silent hunter 1? :rotfl:

LOL. SH1 was my first military sim, in many ways (I had Jane's ATF Gold, but it was in English and I didn't understand English at the time). It was back in China, when I was something like 7 years old, playing SH1 on something like a 486. i still remember the good old times when I turned realism down to 0%, sailed into Tokyo Bay and deck gunned every ship in the harbour, or all those times sneaking into those Japanese Empire harbours (with realism on high), torpedoing the escorts and gunning whatever left, then submerging, losing contact, and have the ships instantly reappear. Or those times when my ship was destroyed by Japanese destroyers. Or the ring of 12 DCs from those darned little patrol boats that got me every time (forgot what they were called, D-class or F-class or something, but they were small, maneauverable, difficult to hit and armed with twice as many DC rails as larger DDs. anyone remember what they were?). Or those death scenes where my submarine got crushed.

And yes, I miss the 2D controls and interface. Although the graphics in SH4 are far better.

In fact, I practically grew up with SH1. It was the game that introduced me to submarines and naval warfare in general.

Finally, a big thanks to the good people at Strategic Simulations Inc who made SH1. What happened to SSI anyway?

[marky]

i have to agree this particular sim got underway a bit too soon for the shipyard to finish her:ping::rotfl:

[marky]

not that its all bad its pretty good, but pc gamer agrees it coulda had some more time