On walls and bridges

[Letum]

Relevant BBC News links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6577529.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6579335.stm

The American military plans to build a "maze" of concrete walls in Baghdad in order to
prevent sectarian violence. The walls have been highly controversial. The Iraqi
prime-minister Nouri al-Maliki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouri_al-Maliki) has also condemned the building of the wall(s).

What do you guys think?
Can bridges be built between communities whilst a wall divides them?
Can walls "break the cycle" of sectarian violence?
Is there a danger of a wall becoming a symbol of division and conflict?
Will it turn parts of Baghdad in to a "big prison" and how can this be avoided?
What can we learn from similar walls in Ireland and other historical examples?
How effective can walls be in preventing conflict?

[Tchocky]

Reeks of "last-ditch" to me.

[Sailor Steve]

I think it's their country. The Iraqi PM should have the last say.

[Letum]

I think it's their country. The Iraqi PM should have the last say.

I've just heard the story on BBC Radio4. They haven't updated their website fully with the story yet, but I got the impression that the Iraqi government will have the last say.

Don't quote me on that tho!

They will at the very least have a lot of sway on the matter.

[Skybird]

This will not win modern architecture any new friends.

[tycho102]

Can walls "break the cycle" of sectarian violence?
Are you referring to the 1350 years of sectarian violence since the death of Muhammed?

Or are you just talking about the past 50 years of sectarian violence since Iraqi Sunni gained military hardware and used it to suppress the Shi'a majority?

Or are you referring to the past 4 years of sectarian violence while America, Britain, Poland, Japan, China, and Australia have had military members operating in various capacities inside the United Nations recognized region of "Iraq"?






Borders based on the logistical notion of a "nation" do not apply to lions, gorillas, chimpanzee, sharks, whales, dogs, cats, pigeons, or antelope. It is the same folly which arises when a person attributes emotional capacity to an inanimate object.

[Letum]

Can walls "break the cycle" of sectarian violence?
Are you referring to the 1350 years of sectarian violence since the death of Muhammed?

Or are you just talking about the past 50 years of sectarian violence since Iraqi Sunni gained military hardware and used it to suppress the Shi'a majority?

Or are you referring to the past 4 years of sectarian violence while America, Britain, Poland, Japan, China, and Australia have had military members operating in various capacities inside the United Nations recognized region of "Iraq"?



Good question!
You will have to ask the "US military spokesman" I quoted from tho!

[P_Funk]

I think it's their country. The Iraqi PM should have the last say.
Exactly. Whats the point of a democracy when the PM doesn't even have a say in domestic affairs?

Walls, sheesh.:roll:

[Camaero]

Tear down the wall! Tear down the wall! Tear down the wall!

Oh sorry, I was just listening to Pink Floyd...:cool:

[P_Funk]

"Mr. Bush! Tear down this wall!"

Hehehehe. Oh the irony.

[TteFAboB]

If the Sunnis are unhappy about it...

Bush is reluctant to build the wall everybody wants down south to avoid ruining his North American Union project. Yet, he'll build a wall in Baghdad? :roll: :damn: :shifty:

Well, once the Shia secure power or if the Sunni manage to topple the government one will tear down the wall to be able to kill the other quicker anyway. Should gain some time perhaps.

[Letum]

Should gain some time perhaps.
I take it your a little pessimistic about Iraq's future then?

*edit* Or perhaps apathetic?

[P_Funk]

I don't know how anyone was ever optomistic about its future.

The USA is arguably the greatest democratic experiment in history and yet it took one war of independance, one war of 1812, countless other skirmishes, and a civil war before things cooled down.

And this is all between white people from the same homeland praying to the same god.

I don't care how many troops you got, how much mortar and stone you erect, or how many democratic institutions you create. A nation that is as diverse and new to democracy isn't going to just settle down inside of a decade. History teaches us that only a unified democratic movement or revolution has the chance of creating any kind of stability and cooperation in a nation's formative democratic period. Just enforcing it wont work.

Its sad to say but diversity is the crack of gunfire.

[Camaero]

Your right P_Funk. One side has to win for it to end.

[P_Funk]

Your right P_Funk. One side has to win for it to end.
Not even necessarily win. There just needs to be one side.

You know when that could have been? After the last American invasion when the people started to rise up. Although back then the only freedom that the US was interested in apparenlty was that of the Kuwaitis and thus allowed Saddam to retain power and crush the rebellion.

If we wanted any chance at a unified state it was 16 years ago.

[The Avon Lady]

If we wanted any chance at a unified state it was 16 years ago.
The same thing that's happening now would have happened then.

National Brotherhood Week

By Tom Lehrer

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

[P_Funk]

If we wanted any chance at a unified state it was 16 years ago. The same thing that's happening now would have happened then.
Probably. My point is that if there was a time to try and do it this way it was then, not now.

Iraq I'm pretty sure is doomed to fail as a nation, at least a democratic one. Its an ethnic grab bag of the middle east. Like most other forceably joined nations, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, etc, it just can't function. The simpler thing would be to let them become independant groups, as they were before the British decided to play "Let's Clean up the Middle East". But given the political climate, not just in the US, its not gonna happen that way either. For one Turkey won't let the Kurds become independant. They have a massive Kurdish population that borders the Kurdish part of Iraq and they see an independant Kurdish state as an invitation to a Serbian/Austro-Hungarian situation.