I think caution is in order

[pythos]

I just finished the latest review on SH4. I found it to be brutally honest, perhaps to a fault.

The reason I titled this thread what I did is because this came to my mind.

Lately game companies have been going over to console related games, and leaving PC games by the wayside. I have played the console and can point out several bugs that make game play require suspense of reality.

Ubisoft is one of those daring companies to continue developing PC games, and even endervor to make jewels like the Silent Hunter series, a true niche market.

I have noticed much griping on little petty niggling things such as historical inacuracies. This is something I find kinda shocking. Concerning the Pacific submarine operations there is suprisingly little technical data. The actual crush depth of the Balao to my knowledge is classified. Why? Because it is rumored the Los Angeles class has a similar crush depth, also classified. With American subs we are dealing with laws, and classified information that is simply unatainable. None of the books I have give the range of the various radar sets that were employed on these boats, most likely because their derivatives are still in use this very day, just under new technology.

The data for German boats is open and out there, you see, they lost, and the Germans were and are meticulous record keepers. Wheras American sub data is not so easy to find. The operations for these boats is scant to find, and usually from the actual sub drivers, of whom there are few. Ned Beach being the primary source in most cases (Thank you mister Beach)

I am quite impressed with the programming of the TDC, concidering this instrument is still in use as a back up on all US subs today, though in a more modern form.


Some good books concerning the American boats I can recomend is Submarine! by Ned Beach, Run Silent Run deep (the Das boot of american boats), and U.S. Submarines through 1945 by Norman Friedman, This book is a true tome of technical knowledge and is indispensible with this game.

I guess what I am saying is, please be mindful of the barbs you shoot at UBI. If they really feel like it, they could tell us imaginary sub drivers to go to crush depth, die and go to hell, and stop suporting all of the long lived Silent Hunter Series.

Yes it was released buggy, as was it's great predasesor (SP?) But what would the general reaction have been if the games release was delayed another month or several? All you have to do is look on the forums of games that have done just that. There is enough wine in those posts to use up the entire cheese supply of France! Mecha warrior being a prime example (When did that actually get released? I'm not sure cause all I have heard is "I'm not buying it, they have taken to long putting it out")

Let's gripe to ubi only about those bugs the modders, and others here can't work on by file manipulating, such as the chronometer, or looping sounds. At the same time people who like the series and love playing it, do research and improve the game to your standards. Most of all, have fun.

Good hunting.

[Laffertytig]

<Edit: Lets keep it friendly, please>

so u reckon that a modern nuclear sub like a los angeles class has the same crush depth as a WW2 sub!

to be fair the rest of your post is very fair comment but the crush depth part made me laugh

[Chock]

It's certainly true that info on US subs is hard to find. I've been in the specialist Ian Allen bookshop in Manchester many times searching for info on US subs, and in comparison to even books on Russian submarines, there are relatively few around. To the extent that I ended up buying the Encyclopedia of US Submarines simply because it was one of the few around (but at a price of 53 pounds sterling, it was hardly great value for money).

While I agree that slamming a company is not exactly the ideal way to show your enthusiasm and support for them to continue developing a franchise/title, at the end of the day, the bank balance will be the deciding factor on whether they continue to do this. To this end, it is in their own interest to develop something with less bugs, in view of the fact that they appear to be attempting to widen the submarine sim/game's appeal. This could ultimately be a forlorn hope if newcomers to the genre (and their cash) are not in for the long run because of disappointment in their first foray into the world of subsims owing to a buggy product.

It's true that some complaints border on being a tantrum in forums such as these, and I agree that we could well do without this kind of thing. But it's undoubtedly also true that some modders, while not going so far as to welcome bugs, can at least claim that it is their raison d'etre (ooh posh words alert).

I don't think we have to tip-toe around software companies for fear of upsetting their delicate sensitivities, we just have to keep buying the products. Money will do the talking for us, and it needs no translation into Romanian, French or any other language for that matter. But restraint in the way we complain can certainly do no harm.

On the other point raised in your post, I think I'd trust a Los Angeles class submarine down to a considerably deeper depth than a WW2-era sub, given that modern subs are created under a completely different doctrine - i.e. they are designed primarily for underwater cruising. I doubt that Sonalysts got their crush depths wrong in Sub Command and Dangerous Waters, although they may not have put it spot on the real figure as a security measure. So I think the 'same depth' classified argument doesn't hold water, if you'll pardon the pun.

[CCIP]

Crush depth is not classified, certainly not for the balao - it's just that it's not known exactly and impossible to know exactly. Sub manufacturers put conservative estimates of it as test depths because they don't want to be blamed for any failures if a sub should exceed those. As far as the depths, I think the Los Angeles vs. Balao comment is nonsense - there's just no way, hull design and quality has moved by leaps and bounds since WWII subs :doh:

Plus, there's no mystery about the Balao. The deepest dive it took and survived was 1011ft (during the infamous USS Chopper incident). That doesn't mean that another sub might not have been crushed at the same depth. There's a lot of variables involved and the idea of a 'crush depth' as a hard number is flawed. There's crush, and it happens because of depth, but there really isn't such a thing as crush depth.

[NEON DEON]

Everyone has a different level of tolerance when it comes to bugs.

If you are a sub fanatic, you will probably have more tolerance to bugs in a sub game then let’s say an RPG.

I think UBI has shot themselves in the foot. They rushed out a product banking on core support and short term revenue while ignoring the long term ramifications of bad press due to bugs and an unfinished product. This would tend to produce alienation of middle of the road PC gamers and part of the core itself who will more than likely shun UBI products in the future based on a bad experience with SH IV. In an environment where overall PC game sales are declining, you must make efforts to capture more of the market as opposed to pissing off the reduced ranks of PC gamers. I believe this does not bode well for the future of the Silent Hunter series. If the game damages enough of it’s core support base (just look at the large number of negative posts in this forum), this could be the end of the Silent Hunter series.

[DragonRR1]

Quite honestly if UBI allow the devs to fix the vast majority of bugs especially hard coded ones the complaints will die away.

As far as sales are concerned SH4 was the no.1 best selling PC game in the states in it's launch week (at least one source) which isn't bad going for a subsim! The subsim forums appear to be incredibly busy with members and non members almost all the time, as I write this there are nearly 1200 people looking at the forums (not all for SH4 of course) many of them will have either bought the game or thinking of buying it.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13221

The game itself has some of the best graphics seen so far in a computer game or console game.

Overall whilst the negative posts don't exactly help sales I think if the game didn't show amazing potential there would be a lot more silence ... which in my book would not be a good thing at all.

[John Channing]

The point that is being missed here is that I really don't think Ubisoft really gives a damn what a bunch of fanatical Subsum addicts and rivet counters think or don't think about their product.

They have invested a considerable amount of money in this project and are looking for a return, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I doubt that anyone here who has a job would be willing or able to do it for free, and Ubisoft should not be expected to do it either.

The danger is that, with some of the irresponsible, uniformed moaning that has gone on here, growth of our hobby will almost certainly be affected.

Now before someone jumps in with the "Just hold your horses, John" post I am not taklking about people who report problems in a responsible, helpful manner. Nor am I saying that SH4:WOTP was released in a finished state. Far from it.

However there is, as with all games, a small but very vocal minority that pollute every thread with their "THIS GAME IS TEH SUXXOR!!!111" comments. My favorite is "I am going to shelve this game until Ubisoft fixes it while kissing my a**, too!" . For fun... the next time you see one of those type of posts check out "Recent Posts" by the individual. You will find the average "Shelved it" period is less than 24 hours.

My second favorite is the "Keyboard Lawyers" who are going to initiate a Class Action suit aginst Ubisoft. I can't wait to see how they show they were damaged. "Oh your Honor... my life was runined because the resolution scaling affected the TDC readouts, and I can't do it anymore because I am so upset"!

But the danger is that this type of silly, immature action will affect sales. And Ubisoft will care about that. No sales.. no follow-ons.

Most new people come to this site for information and help with something small, or for opinions on what the people they see as "being in the know" think. If they see every friggin thread about the game hijacked by these self centered, short sighted individuals they they are going to make up their mind that the problems are much bigger than is actually the case. They won't see that it is the same people jumping into every thread over and over and over again with the same complaints and threats... they will just see the signal to noise ratio is so high that they will walk away from the game.

So threaten Ubisoft all you want. Again, I really don't think they give a damn. But if someone comes looking for help or asking questions, try and remember the old adage "If you can't say some thing nice... shut the hell up" (Ok... I updated it a bit).

Oh... and I was kidding about threatening Ubisoft all you want. That's just not on here.

JCC

Cue the "I shelved it and never went back" posts in 5....4....3...

[greekfire]

pythos,

I don't know enough about sub stats regarding crush depths and such to support or deny such statements but I think the overall point you were trying to make was a good one for sure. When you mentioned that players would have been complaining just as much if they had postponed release of the game to iron out the bugs...that was 110% correct. Regarding myself, I can say with 100% certainty that I would rather have the game early with bugs, then wait 6 months for the ironed-out version. There is a part of me that enjoys pulling a game apart and trying to improve it....learning how to tweak its internals. In fact, I enjoy researching, modding, & looking for improvements/modifications to bugs just as much, if not more, than actually playing. If this game had in fact come out "perfect" not requiring such effort on our part I would be missing out on half the fun and I would have grown bored quite quickly. In fact, I don't think these types of communities like subsim would be what they are...a veritable think-tank in sub technicals and game technology...without the bug issues and historical inaccuracies. I guess what I am trying to say is that....I just like everything as it is. I've got something to constantly look forward to regarding this game as patches and mods are slowly released adding new deminsions to the game as it matures, but in the mean time, I'm having a freakin blast. cheers

[-Pv-]

I'm seeing a high level of narcosis typical of young gamers and when taken to an extreme shows up in the terrible events we've had to witness recently, repeating like-events still stinging from the past. When your WHOLE world is a game, then indeed the sky is falling. Hark those with their head in the sand until something bad happens and they suddenly want to understand why... here it is. As gamers in an open forum, we are witnessing the sampling of the gamer community and it's social attitudes. Impoliteness, disconnectedness with the real world, rude, self-centeredness. Lack of self control and accountability.

Since I expect a lot of gamers to pounce on these comments, I will say I am a gamer, but being more mature in age, possibly one of the many here (I expect WWII gamers have an unusually grand affection for history) who has made it past adolescent years still in one piece, I can freeely admit and have the license to say it takes one to know one. While I'm criticizing the gaming community I'll avoid calling on shallow moral incentives like corporate profit and improved product satisfaction (as powerful forces they are) and just point out the social decline in personal responsibility being revealed here (in painfully imature posts) at an unprecidented level. Again, don't jump on me too fast, I'm not saying everyone who posts here behaves like this. On the contrary, the unique quality of participation of the many people who built up this community through personal commitment and technical excellence are at risk of having their effort confounded.

When you can say whatever you want and never have to face ANYONE for what you say, not your peers, employers, family, or those you defame, rendering free speech to the trashscan of the gutter, there is no risk to life, no clear plan of success or failure to avoid. Life washes out to this grim greyness of mediocrity. No wonder there is so much hate and frustration. In this grey world, it's up to everyone else to solve your problems, and because no one does, life becomes a pin point of internal collapse. A black hole sucking color out of everything around you.

True high quality of life comes from personal excellance. Demanding the best of oneself, even higher than what others expect. NOT what you can demand at the point of a gun or a well aimed insult.

Ubisoft strove to open up the sub sim genre to a wider audience by incorporating graphics over content, ease of play over complexity, shallow short-term goals over long term commitment (I'm not saying the game is devoid of the more positive things- rather, the intense graphics have attracted those whose expectations are other than those who are challenged by the more technical aspects of historical simulation gaming.) Welcome FPS. I say there is evidence UBI and the marketing department got what they were aiming for. Ubisoft also fueled the black hole by giving the malaisematics something to complain about.
The sub community got what we were asking for also. A larger market of the population purchased (or otherwise "obtained") the game increasing the publisher's coffers and dragging more extreme gamers in off the street. Sometimes asking for what we want comes at a price that sours the satisfaction of getting it.

Leaving behind my more negative comments for a moment, as a long time committed military gamer, what brings me to the table is reliving history and the appreciation for what REAL people in desperate times accomplished. Something VERY HARD to understand in an antiseptic media-controlled society. SHIV brings back for me the vicarious satisfaction I had with game titles of the past, now updated with jaw-dropping visualizations on current operating systems and hardware. That I have to share this satisfaction not with other like-minded gamers, but with terrible two years olds (OK I reverted to a more negative comment) takes some joy out of sharing with the community.

Fortunately, I'm getting better at spotting the imbecilic thread titles and just assume what's in the messages is of like kind and avoid opening the threads. Let the trash talk to the trash and implode, endlessly complaining to each other and solving nothing. Unfortunately, the millions of trash talk web sites is not enough room for them. They have to expand their borders and make other people feel miserable too, thus gaining more narcistic "points."
Life is a game, right?

My question is:
What is the behavior level of expectation on this Web site? There are obvious rules stated. I'm assuming those rules are being enforced. The only other control besides restricting access to the top 25 Neal buddies is what?
C.S. Lewis wrote that he thought he was an OK guy until he attended collage and discovered a whole new level of expectation he had to live up to. People who's quality of excellance he had never thought existed. C.S Lewis gained more life by looking up not in.
We now get to examine the dynamic. Will this site continue to degrade to the level of the loudest and most profane membership (yes, everyone who can read knows what the abreviations mean, so what's the difference?) Or, will the newbies seeing examples of leadership, commitment, self control and generosity be pulled up out of their miopia into a larger world?

I say let the grunge masters start their own web site and if they get tired of it, come visit here for a breath of fresh air and some real technical assistance instead of the self-absorbed "I hate the world and the world hates me" whirlpool of dispair.
-Pv-

[donut]

@http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/post_new.gif 04-22-2007, 03:45 PM #9 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=509787&postcount=9) -Pv- (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=224896) vbmenu_register("postmenu_509787", true);
All I can say is some youngsters don't have $50.00 to be Beta testers.-Pv- sir, You need a soapbox.:huh:

[cappy70]

This is a (hidden) Console vs PC gamethread...( hidden in a lot of other so called tech. game talk)

Where has game companies being going over to , as qouted: "Lately game companies have been going over to console related games".

Paying license $ just to make a game for that specific console game???

Remember DX10 is coming out soon/(now),,,,where is the console tech. in this????


I say as I always has said: Consoles are a "frozen" frame in time where PC tech. was at that point in time....byeeee..:D

[pythos]

So just how deep can a los angeles go?

The depth of the Gato is quite well known, but it was my understanding the Balao is still classified. Perhaps I am wrong. So if I am, please find me a site that has Official stats on the Balao.

[NEON DEON]

So just how deep can a los angeles go?

The depth of the Gato is quite well known, but it was my understanding the Balao is still classified. Perhaps I am wrong. So if I am, please find me a site that has Official stats on the Balao.

The test depth of the Los Angeles class submarine is 950 feet.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/ssn-688.htm (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/ssn-688.htm)

The test depth of a Balao class is 400 feet.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ss-285-specs.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ss-285-specs.htm)

Multiply test depth by 1.5 and you should be able to obtain emergency operating depth for these subs.

600 feet for Balao

1,425 feet for Los Angeles

As for crush depth, it can only be a hypothetical.

2 to 2.5 times test depth

800 to 1,000 feet for the Balao

1,900 to 2,375 feet for a Los Angeles

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.:D

[Chock]

Re: crush depths.

To sum things up... Apparently some people are crushed because the SH4 stopwatch doesn't work, but despite being crushed, it seems there's still no limit on the depths to which they'll sink when it comes to torpedoing the software publishers.

So what if the stopwatch is bust? Don't these people have clocks in their homes?

Chock :D

[Skyhawk]

The premature release of this software I can tolerate.

The waiting for patches and corrective mods I can tolerate.

I can't tolerate moderators and genre fanboys who mindlessly defend this product against all complaints no matter how justified those complaints are.

I can't tolerate moderators and genre fanboys who practice a double standard, who find making personal attacks against those who disagree with their opinions ok to almost any degree, while using every rationalization possible to be condescending towards the same group of people (they are all immature 12 year-olds, they are socially defunct people who have "no life", they are trollers with nothing better to do, they are rivet counters, etc. ad nauseum).

The thread by a member named "Monica Lewinsky" was particularly disturbing. To keep it short and sweet, in order to be as mean and nasty as possible to someone who was voicing a problem with this product, ML made a very insensitive and irreverent remark about the recent events at Virginia Tech here in the United States.
The member in question was told the comment was over the line. The member in question gave the excuse of having a few beers to many. The member in question, to the best of my knowledge, was not banned. I can't accept that this kind of behavior is tolerated by this wonderful and friendly subsimming community, whether that member was warned or not. It was over the line, it was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, the member should have been banned and the thread deleted immediately. Period.

I can tolerate with maturity what I considered to be a bad product at release.

But, I will not participate on this forum or the UBI forum, in this way, I can prevent myself from further exposure to immaturity, indecency, personal attacks, and just plain rudeness.

There are other things SOOOOOO much more productive to do with my time, and instead of complaining about this product I suggest other dissatisfied customers simply find a different genre of PC game to pursue, with a supporting community that is intent on helping them enjoy the game to the fullest, while keeping personal insults and mindless justification of a bad product to a minimum.

This place wreaks of a double standard, and it is the actions of this "community" and it's leaders (moderators) which have turned me off to this product, rather than the defects of the product itself.

That is all, stand down from general quarters if/when you come to your senses, or have fun using this software to justify a continued attitude of superiority and condescension towards all those with differing opinions. It's your time/life you are wasting and I laugh at you for it. Just a simple choice to not click on this website's link makes you all disappear!

POOF!!!!

(Que illogical and overly defensive remarks in 5 . . 4 . . 3 . . )

Better yet, close or delete this thread for not agreeing with the mods/genre fanboy point of view. . . er. . .umm . . . I mean for not having any productive or constructive value.

/clickonclosebox POOF!!!! thank God it worked the second time :up: :yep:

[CCIP]

I don't see where you found this attitude.

There are equally ill-willing members on both sides unfortunately, but there is no double standard as you'd discovered if you considered for a moment the way in which this administration conducts business. If you're as responsible as you claim, you'd also point out bad behaviour by 'immature, offensive members' to the administration rather than air it out at a convenient moment to sting at a group you for some reason dislike.

There is nothing political behind 90% of the praise or defense from critics that SHIV gets around here (and anything that's political is just forum politics that means to maintain good order and a positive attitude here, which I don't view as bad). This much has been said many times. Likewise, I'm sure there's nothing going on in the criticism either. Where there is a problem is ill will in a community that is supposed to foster subsims, not trash them. And I think the ill will isn't coming from the administration or the 'positive side'.

I should also point out that for all the 'mindless defense', a number of very rationed members have gone to quite an extent to make detailed & reasonable arguments.

I see you're operating on extremes of opinion, which don't accurately represent anything that actually goes on around here on the whole. Fine, suit yourself, but please keep the laundry to yourself.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure I know who you are. :shifty:

[_Seth_]

The thread by a member named "Monica Lewinsky" was particularly disturbing. To keep it short and sweet, in order to be as mean and nasty as possible to someone who was voicing a problem with this product, ML made a very insensitive and irreverent remark about the recent events at Virginia Tech here in the United States.
The member in question was told the comment was over the line. The member in question gave the excuse of having a few beers to many. The member in question, to the best of my knowledge, was not banned. I can't accept that this kind of behavior is tolerated by this wonderful and friendly subsimming community, whether that member was warned or not. It was over the line, it was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, the member should have been banned and the thread deleted immediately. Period.

This member you are talking about, was rattlin' in the heat of the battle. He excused himself for that statement, and explained why he posted it. It would have been worse if he ment it seriously... The VTech-shootings was a horrific tragedy, and the member in question knows that too.Remember; Political correct issues have a tendency to calm down over time, even if they are unacceptable right now. It's just the way the world works.

[joea]

There are other things SOOOOOO much more productive to do with my time, and instead of complaining about this product I suggest other dissatisfied customers simply find a different genre of PC game to pursue, with a supporting community that is intent on helping them enjoy the game to the fullest, while keeping personal insults and mindless justification of a bad product to a minimum.

(Que illogical and overly defensive remarks in 5 . . 4 . . 3 . . )


1...ya enjoy Rayman dude. I agree there is more and more stuff to get upset about, but I also gotta wonder at those who have to put their word in "I don't waste my time with the game or the fourms" and proceed to waste their own time doing just that. I think you'll be lurking anyway somehow.

Anyway, it would be so simple if people were just polite and reasonable.

[TDK1044]

I can't tolerate moderators and genre fanboys who practice a double standard, who find making personal attacks against those who disagree with their opinions ok to almost any degree, while using every rationalization possible to be condescending towards the same group of people (they are all immature 12 year-olds, they are socially defunct people who have "no life", they are trollers with nothing better to do, they are rivet counters, etc. ad nauseum).

The thread by a member named "Monica Lewinsky" was particularly disturbing. To keep it short and sweet, in order to be as mean and nasty as possible to someone who was voicing a problem with this product, ML made a very insensitive and irreverent remark about the recent events at Virginia Tech here in the United States.
The member in question was told the comment was over the line. The member in question gave the excuse of having a few beers to many. The member in question, to the best of my knowledge, was not banned. I can't accept that this kind of behavior is tolerated by this wonderful and friendly subsimming community, whether that member was warned or not. It was over the line, it was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, the member should have been banned and the thread deleted immediately. Period.


This place wreaks of a double standard, and it is the actions of this "community" and it's leaders (moderators) which have turned me off to this product, rather than the defects of the product itself.
:up: :yep:



The vast majority of the members of this Forum are good people who have different opinions on a wide range of subjects related to Silent Hunter 4. It's the diversity of the members that makes it interesting here, Skyhawk.

As Moderators, we tend to defend the game against those who throw out a continued negative torrent of abuse, because the same handful of people have a habit of hijacking any thread and then continuing their abuse in that thread also. Those people require a stricter approach from us and they get it.

As to your comment about member 'Monica Lewinski' being banned and the thread closed; other members quickly made it very clear to 'Monica Lewinski' that a line had been crossed and that the statement made was totally inappropriate. I monitored that thread very closely, and I felt that the members handled the situation very well and there was no need for a Moderator to come in and close the thread at that time.

I see that you are a new member here, Skyhawk. If you don't like the way things are done here then you may be better suited to another Forum. If you choose to stay, your contribution will be welcome.

[wireman]

nice parting shot

[-Pv-]

"...All I can say is some youngsters don't have $50.00 to be Beta testers..."

I've been playing puter games since mid 1985 and have purchased well over 100 titles. Not one of those has been 100% perfect out of the box on the 1st day. It's just the way it is. Because people aren't perfect, games aren't perfect even after reams of patches.

The price we pay for a product has risks associated with it. That it might not run on our current hardware, that the game might reveal a previously unknown fault in our system. That the expectations we had for the game were unrealistic and un-met. Maybe we are experimenting with a new kind of game we've not been interested in the past and to find out- yup, that kind of game just isn't for me. Or, that we are unwilling to have the patience for the upgrade cycle to fulfill the game's intended potential.

It took 10 years for Falcon4 to come to full bloom after a totally unplayable initial release and it's still being improved. We're talking a $45 game back in the early 90s, so in current value, you might consider it a $70 game. Despite suffering YEARS of harrang is the absolute BEST of all modern combat flight sims. Why did this happen? Because people who LOVE the particular kind of game this represented saw the gem under the garbage code. Believed in what the original game designers tried and failed to do and would not give up. Talk about a FAN. I paid full price for the game TWICE because I loved it so much.
I can hear it now. I'm going to be blamed for helping developers make bad games. Rather, developers make games at all because of people like me.

Patience is a virtue. Supporting people (the devs) whose stated intent is to provide us with the best game they can make will eventually win the day against the sub sim haters. History based on the Silent Hunter series and other great games that were massively flawed to start and became gems afterward will prove me correct.

Patience, dedication, commitment. Seeing the positive through the negative. Weighing the risk and put our money down as an investment in the future rather than the here and now. I bought SH2 and three not because I particularly liked those games, but because I was investing in SH4 when it wasn't even being considered.

If you only live for the now, all life has to be perfect and made to your order now. Life should be riskless and perfect. The idea that only by hating and ridiculing enough can you make the world conform to your own standards. These are the ingredients for defeat because it's impossible and unrealistic flying in the face of human nature.

It's better to strive for perfection within yourself (even knowing it's impossible-yet the attempt out-produces mediocrity) and others around you will find themselves trying to match your step. Optimism, reward and encouragement is what brings out the best effort in people. That's how we are made. A great example of this is the dedicated group of modders here who instead of spewing pure hate at every game feature, dug out the code and discovered it was possible to make a few changes so the game was playable, then shared it with us. It TOOK TIME and expertise most of us do not have to do this. Do they charge for it? Do they insist only those who love the game can use their ideas? Selfless generosity. Where is this selfless generosity on the part of the SH4 haters?

Criticism is good too, because humans with finite capability and time cannot see and do everything. When criticism turns into an agenda-driven abuse, then it's no longer productive. I'm seeing indications here there IS an agenda fostered and driven by a self gratifying group intent on making live miserable for others.
-Pv-

[SirJAG]

are u on drugs? so u reckon that a modern nuclear sub like a los angeles class has the same crush depth as a WW2 sub!

to be fair the rest of your post is very fair comment but the crush depth part made me laugh

<Edit: Come on now, let's keep it friendly>

i will not disscuss classified info here or anywhere, but ask your self a few questions:

1) what is the most limiting component on a LA attack sub reguarding depth (common sense, not classified)
2) does a WWII boat have one? (not the reactor either)

<Another edit: This one for continuity!>

SirJAG

[TheRaider]

I really don't understand why everyone is complaining so much, yeah I know I am new here

I notice that some people complain and when they post their computer specs (dick measuring contest?) there is usually something not up to spec for the game

People, if you really want to see complaining to UBI, go to the Splinter Cell Double Agent forums, there hasn't been one positive post in three months, I was upset with that considering I have been jumping into Sam Fisher's boots since the game was created.

I play Silent Hunter III and WOTP for the sheer enjoyment, I will admit that my realism factor is at only 10% It's a game and I was almost stunned when I started my first mission and was given the USS Pogy, a sub I have read about many many times.:huh:
If I want 100% perfect realism, I will play Falcon 4.0 (I have been working on F-16s for eight years and that game is only 80%) but I don't complain, just play and enjoy

I am amazed at the quickness of the patches since the game was released, I have a few problems, but I don't let them bug me, so what if the screen is a little off when I use different things, hell I sunk a Destroyer with about 500 rounds of HE from the twin 20mm AA gun

People, calm down, sit back, and remember this is a game (simulation), if something bugs you to the point of complaint on this level, go outside and take a break, it's what I do when I struggle with a game

[anthonye]

Well said TheRaider. The reason our posts are so low is that we play the game instead of posting thread and replies here all day that are sometimes complete nonsence. Same posters who spend hours writing this stuff here time and time again, so when do they get the time to play it and find out these things, god only knows. I visit a couple of times to find out tips etc, mods forum I find great for that and helpfull, but it's getting a joke here now with all this crap from know alls......

[Herr Karl]

Raider!! :up:

[CaptainHaplo]

To get back to the original point.....

Cutting edge drives the market - and pc's are always - and will remain - the cutting edge. Games are what drive the hardware manufacturers - think office users really need a terrabyte of storage space, 3GHz processors and gobs of memory? Not to mention - man that smokin 3d Gpu and sweet new Phy-six card really make excel and word just so quick! And lets face it - running that Exchange server without the newest Soundblaster card is a waste man!

Sarcasm aside - you will likely see my point. Console games come FROM pc games - unless its some already licensed line - like Mario or Zelda or something - most games hit for the PC market FIRST. GTA, Need For Speed, Rainbow Six, etc etc etc.... all are ports to consoles. The movers and shakers in the industry are not going to let the entertainment side of things go away - its what moves their "latest and greatest". Why do you think your seeing the merger between ATI and AMD? Or the rash of games coming with the Nvidia logo being released?

Does this mean UBI will continue the SH line? No - but overall - the game industry is growing - and as PC gamers - we are THE front line of that - what hits the scene passes through us first in most cases. Games that dont sell to PC gamers never get ported.....

However, as a responsible community - that wants to see SH continue - or at least the current title be fixed - we need to show maturity in bringing our complaints forward.

As for conduct - there is a guideline - and those that cross it will be reprimanded - by the community often before the moderators get involved. Mature members who cross a line will acknowledge that and learn. All one can expect - we are human - but we should all strive to act as adults.

Good Hunting.
Captain Haplo

[doggydoggo]

I think this particular thread has gotten off course, and not due to any bugs in the SH4 nav system. :) Getting back to the original topic, the Call of Duty series is one of my personal favorite games for the PC. With the release for COD 3, they have taken away a PC staple.

For me, my initial troubles with SH4 were great. Bought the game, found out my vid card wasn't good enough, bought one off ebay, waited a week to get it, took me several days to get the card and drivers working in my system and get the settings just right so SH4 would work. During that nightmare, I hated this game. But once I got it working and began to realize the improvements they did make over SH3, I am starting to enjoy the game.

Personally, I could care less if some of the dates are inaccurate. That's why we have our WONDERFUL modders. I simply enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the awesome mods this community makes to add extra splashes here and there.

Petition UBI for fixes and patches. ABSOLUTELY! Whine and gripe about the smallest of issues or go on personal attacks to one another? We can do better, friends.

[Deamon]

Regarding myself, I can say with 100% certainty that I would rather have the game early with bugs, then wait 6 months for the ironed-out version. There is a part of me that enjoys pulling a game apart and trying to improve it....learning how to tweak its internals. In fact, I enjoy researching, modding, & looking for improvements/modifications to bugs just as much, if not more, than actually playing. If this game had in fact come out "perfect" not requiring such effort on our part I would be missing out on half the fun and I would have grown bored quite quickly. In fact, I don't think these types of communities like subsim would be what they are...a veritable think-tank in sub technicals and game technology...without the bug issues and historical inaccuracies. I guess what I am trying to say is that....I just like everything as it is. I've got something to constantly look forward to regarding this game as patches and mods are slowly released adding new deminsions to the game as it matures, but in the mean time, I'm having a freakin blast. cheers
You should have become a betatester :yep:

[codeseven]

I'm seeing a high level of narcosis typical of young gamers and when taken to an extreme shows up in the terrible events we've had to witness recently, repeating like-events still stinging from the past. When your WHOLE world is a game, then indeed the sky is falling. Hark those with their head in the sand until something bad happens and they suddenly want to understand why... here it is. As gamers in an open forum, we are witnessing the sampling of the gamer community and it's social attitudes. Impoliteness, disconnectedness with the real world, rude, self-centeredness. Lack of self control and accountability.

Since I expect a lot of gamers to pounce on these comments, I will say I am a gamer, but being more mature in age, possibly one of the many here (I expect WWII gamers have an unusually grand affection for history) who has made it past adolescent years still in one piece, I can freeely admit and have the license to say it takes one to know one. While I'm criticizing the gaming community I'll avoid calling on shallow moral incentives like corporate profit and improved product satisfaction (as powerful forces they are) and just point out the social decline in personal responsibility being revealed here (in painfully imature posts) at an unprecidented level. Again, don't jump on me too fast, I'm not saying everyone who posts here behaves like this. On the contrary, the unique quality of participation of the many people who built up this community through personal commitment and technical excellence are at risk of having their effort confounded.

When you can say whatever you want and never have to face ANYONE for what you say, not your peers, employers, family, or those you defame, rendering free speech to the trashscan of the gutter, there is no risk to life, no clear plan of success or failure to avoid. Life washes out to this grim greyness of mediocrity. No wonder there is so much hate and frustration. In this grey world, it's up to everyone else to solve your problems, and because no one does, life becomes a pin point of internal collapse. A black hole sucking color out of everything around you.

True high quality of life comes from personal excellance. Demanding the best of oneself, even higher than what others expect. NOT what you can demand at the point of a gun or a well aimed insult.

Ubisoft strove to open up the sub sim genre to a wider audience by incorporating graphics over content, ease of play over complexity, shallow short-term goals over long term commitment (I'm not saying the game is devoid of the more positive things- rather, the intense graphics have attracted those whose expectations are other than those who are challenged by the more technical aspects of historical simulation gaming.) Welcome FPS. I say there is evidence UBI and the marketing department got what they were aiming for. Ubisoft also fueled the black hole by giving the malaisematics something to complain about.
The sub community got what we were asking for also. A larger market of the population purchased (or otherwise "obtained") the game increasing the publisher's coffers and dragging more extreme gamers in off the street. Sometimes asking for what we want comes at a price that sours the satisfaction of getting it.

Leaving behind my more negative comments for a moment, as a long time committed military gamer, what brings me to the table is reliving history and the appreciation for what REAL people in desperate times accomplished. Something VERY HARD to understand in an antiseptic media-controlled society. SHIV brings back for me the vicarious satisfaction I had with game titles of the past, now updated with jaw-dropping visualizations on current operating systems and hardware. That I have to share this satisfaction not with other like-minded gamers, but with terrible two years olds (OK I reverted to a more negative comment) takes some joy out of sharing with the community.

Fortunately, I'm getting better at spotting the imbecilic thread titles and just assume what's in the messages is of like kind and avoid opening the threads. Let the trash talk to the trash and implode, endlessly complaining to each other and solving nothing. Unfortunately, the millions of trash talk web sites is not enough room for them. They have to expand their borders and make other people feel miserable too, thus gaining more narcistic "points."
Life is a game, right?

My question is:
What is the behavior level of expectation on this Web site? There are obvious rules stated. I'm assuming those rules are being enforced. The only other control besides restricting access to the top 25 Neal buddies is what?
C.S. Lewis wrote that he thought he was an OK guy until he attended collage and discovered a whole new level of expectation he had to live up to. People who's quality of excellance he had never thought existed. C.S Lewis gained more life by looking up not in.
We now get to examine the dynamic. Will this site continue to degrade to the level of the loudest and most profane membership (yes, everyone who can read knows what the abreviations mean, so what's the difference?) Or, will the newbies seeing examples of leadership, commitment, self control and generosity be pulled up out of their miopia into a larger world?

I say let the grunge masters start their own web site and if they get tired of it, come visit here for a breath of fresh air and some real technical assistance instead of the self-absorbed "I hate the world and the world hates me" whirlpool of dispair.
-Pv-


Best, most accurate and truthful post regarding Gen X that I have ever read.:up:

[SimJack]

The main point of this thread was pure logic. It's a game, not life or death.:cool: