Navy Blue Angel down

[geetrue]

One person reported dead, but not the pilot at a Navy Blue Angel air show in South Carolina ... This is just an early report:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/21/blueangels.crash/index.html

[Camaero]

Damn:down:

[waste gate]

Fox is saying that the pilot was the fatality.

[tycho102]

They need to swap out all those airframes. They're all lot 6's and 8's -- they need to update to lot 17's or something. Probably take quite a bit of retraining for the avionics, but at least the airframe wouldn't have so many hours on it. They have really outstanding maintenance practices, but that just isn't any substitute for non-destructive-inspection like the Airforce does on their planes, and ordinary airframe stress.

I am never surprised when one of those planes drops out. It is nothing less than astounding how long they've already lasted.


note- I don't remember bunos, but lot 6's date back to 1988.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I live in Penascola,Fl hometown for the Blue Angels. We have direct commmunity contacts here.

They have confirmed the pilot is dead.

Here is the link to our newspaper here in Pensacola

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070421/NEWS01/70421005/1006

[Enigma]

:cry:

[U-533]

:damn:

[Skybird]

Such shows are simply stupid. I still have the TV-images of Ramstein on my mind. It's like holding live-firing excersices with tanks in urban areas.

[U-533]

Such shows are simply stupid. I still have the TV-images of Ramstein on my mind. It's like holding live-firing excersices with tanks in urban areas.

I think you just answered your own Signature there skybird

[SUBMAN1]

Such shows are simply stupid. I still have the TV-images of Ramstein on my mind. It's like holding live-firing excersices with tanks in urban areas.
No its not. It is meant to drum up support for the military and it does a great job at it, by inspiring our young.

Airliners are more dangerous and have a much worse safety record. Maybe we should ground them so that they don't fly over our homes anymore. (sarcasm)

-S

PS. Sad day. I feel for those boys.

[Skybird]

No its not. It is meant to drum up support for the military and it does a great job at it, by inspiring our young.
Then play honest - give the young a strong impression of real war, not showbiz. If then they still wish to join, okay. It is immoral to cheat and trick somebody into joining by showing-off like this and hiding the grim truth at the same time.

Airliners, btw usually try to fly in a way to keep risks as low as possible. Airshows like the Blkue Angels try exactly the opposite and mock the devil while trying to get away with it. Well, maybe I have a too cold temper to be impressed by such schoolyard behavior. I don't see neither value nor pride in taking greater risks than needed, or taking risks for something that is not worth it.

[CCIP]

Then play honest - give the young a strong impression of real war, not showbiz. If then they still wish to join, okay. It is immoral to cheat and trick somebody into joining by showing-off like this and hiding the grim truth at the same time.

Is there a precedent for ANY military recruitment tactics being honest? Or any type of advertisement/promotion methods for that matter? :p
It'd certainly be silly to put a disclaimer 'warning: military service may be hazardous to your health' on it, too. 'The young' should know better.

[Skybird]

Then play honest - give the young a strong impression of real war, not showbiz. If then they still wish to join, okay. It is immoral to cheat and trick somebody into joining by showing-off like this and hiding the grim truth at the same time.

Is there a precedent for ANY military recruitment tactics being honest? Or any type of advertisement/promotion methods for that matter? :p
It'd certainly be silly to put a disclaimer 'warning: military service may be hazardous to your health' on it, too. 'The young' should know better.
Certainly not. But is that practice more excusable only for that reason? Again the answer: certainly not.

[CCIP]

As far as the air shows - attendance to these is voluntary, and otherwise the military with all its practices is financed by the tax buck after all. I think if people opposed these events, then they wouldn't take place.

Or maybe that's as naive way of thinking about it.

In any case, I don't think these are going away any time soon, just as other dangerous events like racing and stunt shows.

[moose1am]

The Blue Angles have flown over my home town several times during air shows. You don't have to be at the air show to have the jets flying low over your house. The fly over many square miles of territory during an air show.

I read that this jet flew into a power line and disintegrated so quickly that the pilot didn't have time to eject.

We lost a good man.

Attendance is not VOLUNTARY when you can't stop them from flying over your house in the country.

I ran off the road last time there were here. I was so intent on watching these jets fly off in the distance that I missed a sharp turn and ran off the road into a ditch. Had the boat trailer and boat behind me. Like to have never got that mess out of the ditch. And this was in the next county from where the air show was being peformed. Luckily I didn't do much damage to the truck or the trailer or boat.



As far as the air shows - attendance to these is voluntary, and otherwise the military with all its practices is financed by the tax buck after all. I think if people opposed these events, then they wouldn't take place.

Or maybe that's as naive way of thinking about it.

In any case, I don't think these are going away any time soon, just as other dangerous events like racing and stunt shows.

[Enigma]

It's like holding live-firing excersices with tanks in urban areas.

It is!? :o

[Skybird]

It's like holding live-firing excersices with tanks in urban areas.

It is!? :o
For me, yes. It is like flying a live weapon in maximum risk maneuvers
Those show flights are on the edge. You don't fly like that eternally. Sooner or later you get it. Much, much earlier than if you would fly normally.

Maybe you remember, half a year ago or so we had a thread about that German helicopter champion flying up and down between woods, with the rotortips just ten centimeters over the ground when the chopper made a turn. He crashed one day, was killed. nobody here was surprised, some saisd the same like I say today: you don't fly on the edge forever, sooner or later your luck is used up.

Okay with me if you do it alone. but with plenty of audience around - well, really, I still have the Ramstein images from the Tv coverage on my mind. It was a nightmare. Airshows with military jets are banned in Germany since then.

It's stupid to invite the devil for a dance. Sooner or later you learn he dances hotter than you.

[Skybird]

"Inspiring the young":

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/autre%2520crash%2520Ramstein/ramstein_001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/autre%2520crash%2520ramstein.htm&h=539&w=800&sz=64&hl=de&start=9&tbnid=GSWqXPHs-Ee50M:&tbnh=96&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRamstein%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26sa% 3DG

71 dead. Over 450 wounded, many still receive treatement until today. Not bad for just one fighter plane that carried no bombs on board.

[CCIP]

Aren't the audience inviting the devil to dance in this case?

I don't know, these things just happen. Sure, you could go about it with bans, but I'm not sure if that's neccesarily the right way. We've had Rammstein, we've had Lviv, but people still come out to these things and I don't think blaming the organizers is neccesarily right - if people come to watch large metal objects flying through the sky, then they should realize that there is always some chance that something will happen. Likewise, I'm still not totally convince the practice is deadlier than most other activities. By the same logic, every manner of extreme sport, including rock climbing and paragliding should be banned to - people are unintentionally killed in voluntary activities by collision with heavy objects; earth is a heavy object.

Now when something like the infamous Tu-144 crash at Le Bourget happens and people living in houses outside the airport die, that really is a case where no playing with death was directly involved and the precedent is serious enough to consider some sort of drastic measures.

[Skybird]

Must every yelling by the plebs on the street be followed - simply because they are yelling so loud? I am no fan of this theory about total and unlimited freedom, and with machines carrying thousands of gallons of jetfuel risking ridiculous stunts overhead, I vote that the stupid public needs to be protected from its own stupidity. But maybe that is neither liberal, nor politically correct. Which does not concern me in this case.

If a climber climbs beyond his limits and gets killed, usually he does not kill the audience at the ground. the comarison does not work. I'm not concerned for the pilots - if they want to try their luck, well: one shouldn't stop travellers. My argument is concerning the audience, and residents.

It is a difference to provoke havoc for others, or being cautious and falling victim to misfortune nevertheless.

[CCIP]

By the way, I don't neccesarily disagree - just poking my usual pointed sticks :p

I'm not entirely sure what to think of the assumption that the public needs to be protected from this; part of me wants to say the equally politically-incorrect counter - that if people go to these things and don't for a second stop to respect the laws of physics (that incidentally govern large flying flammable objects), then they have themselves to blame as much as anyone. Still, it's true that there's no intelligence test involved for getting into an air show.


I've never been to an airshow like that (I've seen quite a few from a distance, though), though it's not that I'm afraid of going to one. I occasionally see our CF-18s over my house here, and I'm none the worse for it.

Also, I know that there have been security measures other than banning displays like that at airshows since Rammstein. I think a better, safer organization of these things in strictly non-residential areas may be a better way to go about it. It's sort of like zoos; zoos haven't been banned yet, though mauling accidents still occasionally happen. Is that a better parallel? :hmm:

[Tchocky]

On that point, let's close down any zoo that isn't involved in conservation or research. Seriously.

Polar Bears do not belong in London

[XabbaRus]

Actually I disagree with Skybird when he says they are maximum risk maneauvers. If you look at any disply team the patterns they make are generally large radius low G turns, they don't pull that much compared to combat flying 5G maybe tops. The Red Arrows have the synchro pair and they do some higher G stuff but it is all preplanned. I think some of the solo displays by mil jets with bog standard military pilots in them more extreme. Look at the Typhoon being shown off or the Sukhoi. Much closer to on the edge maneauvers. Sounds to me like this was bad luck, hit something at the end of teh display while doing a turn.

As for running off the road while trying to watch them,. Driver Ed 101, ignore airplanes and keep your eys on the road.

[geetrue]

The last blue angels air show I went to was in San Diego at Miramar in 1990 with over 200,000 people in attendance.

I was hot and saw a B-52 on exhibt with several people standing underneath the wings.

I edged my way over to the crowd under the wings as the Blue Angels did their show. I would come out and take a look then duck back under the wing for shade.

They did a split and came right at each other over the runway ... let me tell you those wings on the B-52 started vibrating and I could feel the vibs down deep in my soul.

I always wanted to be a pilot, but life dealt another card for me ... Those guys are great, I love them ...

It was sad to lose a buddy, but I know they'll make adjustments and be back up again.

The last accident the Blue Angels had was when they were practicing in Georgia back in 1999. Nobody who loves planes wants to see another accident.

They represent the best ... that's what I love about the US Navy Blue Angels.

[SUBMAN1]

Its funny to watch you Skybird. The way you talk, we should all stay home and lock the door because its unsafe to go outside. Oh wait! How do we stop housefires and such? Maybe it isn't safe at home! What ever are you going to do??!!! :D

-S

PS. I know what war is, and if you give me the keys to a $40 Mil fighter and tell me I get to fly it any time I want, but the only hitch is I have to defend my country with it when called - I'm there today!!!! No need to twist my arm. Besides, I love my country and I won't hesiteate to defend it and my home thank you very much. Nothing dishonest in any of it I say.

[MadMike]

Guess we better ban all spectator sports and other recreational activities since it doesn't meet Skybird's approval.

Accident database-

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_year.cgi?year=2007


Sky, you actually have video on your computer of the Flugtag '88 disaster? Why? :hmm:


Yours, Mike

Ramstein, '88-'92

[Skybird]

Actually I disagree with Skybird when he says they are maximum risk maneauvers. If you look at any disply team the patterns they make are generally large radius low G turns, they don't pull that much compared to combat flying 5G maybe tops. The Red Arrows have the synchro pair and they do some higher G stuff but it is all preplanned. I think some of the solo displays by mil jets with bog standard military pilots in them more extreme. Look at the Typhoon being shown off or the Sukhoi. Much closer to on the edge maneauvers. Sounds to me like this was bad luck, hit something at the end of teh display while doing a turn.

As for running off the road while trying to watch them,. Driver Ed 101, ignore airplanes and keep your eys on the road.

there are patterns that include two formations heading each other and passing through each other at accumulated speeds of over 500 kn (both planes doing let's say minimum 250 kn each to maintain precise steering control). at such a speed both formation pass through each other, at 90° or 180° angles, and then wingtips and main bodies just meters away from each other.

Preplanned: I am sure pilots of cashed planes in the past also had preplanned manouveurs on their mind. but man is not 100% perfect, and doing such things reduces the error margin to extremely low values - or is unforgiving to any mistake at all, even a smallest deviation. that's why many good pilots got killed in the past, even under less stressing situation.

Nobody would recommend to zig-zag a sub at 50ft with 38 kn in a harbour area, fog and with heavy taffic everywhere and oil tankers in close vicinity. Nobody recommends to practice with tanks in urban area and hot ammunition, always precisely aiming beside the civilians. But for fighterplanes even more dangerous stunts are considered to be acceptable. This contradiction I do not get.


just poking my usual pointed sticks
Play pool...!


Subman,

you again distort what I say as best as you can. Life includes risk, we all know that. What I condemn is to provoke ridiculously high risks for the actors as well as the audience and that are not needed at all. And my concerns are about the audience. If a pilot decides to try to challenge the devil, let him go, but let him try it in a way where he does not pose a risk to others. Else it would not make sense to prohibit driving on the wrong side of the autobahn, too.


Mike,

the page I linked - I googled only. I wanted to give some photo images on what ammount of distruction the impact did on the ground. Several hundred squaremeters on the ground turned into a killing ground. I doubt that the impact of a MK-84 has a similiar effect on the surface. The fire carpet crashed right into the visitor's area, at high speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWugZJS7oR4

Watch this video and then anybody tell me:
is such nonsens really needed...??? I say this disaster was only this: provoked.

[The Avon Lady]

I'm in full agreement that these daredevil teams, paid for by taxpayers no less, should become history.

People want to sell their stuntmaking for profit? OK but the military doesn't need to have such expensive and risky extravaganzas just to show off.

RIP, Cmdr. Kevin Davis.

[SUBMAN1]

there are patterns that include two formations heading each other and passing through each other at accumulated speeds of over 500 kn (both planes doing let's say minimum 250 kn each to maintain precise steering control). at such a speed both formation pass through each other, at 90° or 180° angles, and then wingtips and main bodies just meters away from each other.

Preplanned: I am sure pilots of cashed planes in the past also had preplanned manouveurs on their mind. but man is not 100% perfect, and doing such things reduces the error margin to extremely low values - or is unforgiving to any mistake at all, even a smallest deviation. that's why many good pilots got killed in the past, even under less stressing situation.

Nobody would recommend to zig-zag a sub at 50ft with 38 kn in a harbour area, fog and with heavy taffic everywhere and oil tankers in close vicinity. Nobody recommends to practice with tanks in urban area and hot ammunition, always precisely aiming beside the civilians. But for fighterplanes even more dangerous stunts are considered to be acceptable. This contradiction I do not get.

Subman,

you again distort what I say as best as you can. Life includes risk, we all know that. What I condemn is to provoke ridiculously high risks for the actors as well as the audience and that are not needed at all. And my concerns are about the audience. If a pilot decides to try to challenge the devil, let him go, but let him try it in a way where he does not pose a risk to others. Else it would not make sense to prohibit driving on the wrong side of the autobahn, too.

You are the king of distortion, so don't even get me started on that. When you don't like what an author has to say for example, you start to dig up dirt on the author instead of looking at his point of view and coming back with a valid argument.

For the Blue Angels, they are doing absolutely nothing unsafe if you study the manuvers. This guy that crashed however was inexperienced - that was the issue.

Have you actually seen their head to head passes from the side with them going over you? The spacing is not a few meters apart as you suggest. Try hundreds of feet. From the front of the airshow, this is hard to gather because of the speed involved.

Basically, what I write above is spot on as they say. You might as well not ever come out of your house.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I'm in full agreement that these daredevil teams, paid for by taxpayers no less, should become history.

People want to sell their stuntmaking for profit? OK but the military doesn't need to have such expensive and risky extravaganzas just to show off.

RIP, Cmdr. Kevin Davis.
It is recruitment and public support, as well as public awareness on the professionalism of its military. It would be stupid to pull the plug on shows such as this, and it is hardly daredevil - they are doign nothing to endanger themselves at all, nor the public. That is why they have been doing it for over 50 years with only a couple incidents - all of them due to inexperienced pilots.

-S

[Skybird]

"they are doing absolutely nothing unsafe if you study the manuvers"

"they are doign nothing to endanger themselves at all, nor the public"

Revealing. No more comment needed. :dead:

[fredbass]

Life is full of chances and risks. We can't live in fear and try to hide from everything that might hurt us. If the air shows are a good recruiting tool then I feel my tax dollars are being well spent, IMO. And anybody that signs up thinking that he is immune from getting into harms way is very naive and not too bright to say the least. :know:

[SUBMAN1]

"they are doing absolutely nothing unsafe if you study the manuvers"

"they are doign nothing to endanger themselves at all, nor the public"
Revealing. No more comment needed. :dead:
They do not abusing the aircraft and doing nothing more than a motor sports type display may do. It is a ton more dangerous to watch F1, or worse, rally races in person than to watch these guys do graceful manuvers in the sky. So get over it already.

If you don't like it, go home and lock the door.

-S

PS. ANd by the way, I take comfort in the fact that you are in charge of nothing in this world since your ideas are a little skewed in my opinion.

[Heibges]

The pilots poor family. It was his first show as a pilot, so I'm sure they were all there watching.

[SUBMAN1]

The pilots poor family. It was his first show as a pilot, so I'm sure they were all there watching.

Thats what I said - it was due to inexperience. It is terribly sad.

-S

[FIREWALL]

Turn your swords into plowshares.

I'll keep my sword and make you do my plowing.:arrgh!:

[geetrue]

If I was a weapons officer in the cockpit of a F-4 Phantom jet in the Vietnam war with a russian made/chinese transported/vietnam fired missile coming after me ... I sure would want a Blue Angel trained pilot in the front seat and that ain't no lie. :yep:

[Skybird]

"Sigh." :roll:

Subman,

I once knew a guy, a young Belgian, doing his first oversea tour as sound technician for the joint correspondents teams for which I worked also back then, it was a British-Belgian collaboration. He was even several years younger than I was back then. He was very hot about seeing his first "adventures", he was eager to experience something "exciting", and he said that there will be a time when his professional skills (that were beyond doubt) would be really tested the first time - when they would be required to function while being under stress. Boy, he was a small kid in the body of a young man, and his big mouth was nerve-killing, all day long.

One day we passed through a little village in southeastern Anatolia, southeast of Erzurum, a mountaineous and isolated region, and it happened to have been hit by a massive artillery strike just one day before. It was one of these events the Turkish military usually referred to as "minor skirmishes with bandits" only. Not one family without dead ones, the place was shattered, all huts were ruins or heavily damaged, still smoking. Parts of a mountai had come down, blocking the road, well, what is called a road in these regions. A couple of children had lost both parents. Maybe 30 people survived, were mouring, and still under shock, sitting beside the graves that did not hold all victims, for they told us that not all bodies had been found.

It was a terrible and miserable scene. We (5 TV guys, 2 Kurdish drivers, me and three others for scouting and security) all felt depressive.

Strong-mouthed good-hearted boy from Belgium looked into some empty eyes too much on that day, he finally got a pale face, then sat down where he was and cried for hours, not doing one recording on interviews that day - his British counterpart was doing it.

The video was excluded from the longterm-docu that we were working on, instead it was sent to London and then internationally distributed for the daily news. That was in mid-96, and it was shown in Germany, and as I was told, UK, Belgium, Austria and Holland as well. Probably also other countries, I don't know.

My point is: some people will not switch on their brain and stop babble nonsens before life itself has slapped them in the face, and with force so. Lots of tough talking from you, Subman, and often so. I think you are just a fool. And I hope life will hit you in the face before you die - to teach you the difference between illusions and reality, what we wish the world to be and what it really is. Else your life would have been in vain, and you will never have been alive.

And if "go home and lock the door" is the brightest reply you can give to something, well, then you may be old in years, but still haven't grown up yet.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWugZJS7oR4

Watch this video and then anybody tell me:
is such nonsens really needed...???

[SUBMAN1]

.....

My point is: some people will not switch on their brain and stop babble nonsens before life itself has slapped them in the face, and with force so. Lots of tough talking from you, Subman, and often so. I think you are just a fool. And I hope life will hit you in the face before you die - to teach you the difference between illusions and reality, what we wish the world to be and what it really is. Else your life would have been in vain, and you will never have been alive.

And if "go home and lock the door" is the brightest reply you can give to something, well, then you may be old in years, but still haven't grown up yet.
I thought you would already know the answer to this being a phyc major and all. Life has already slapped me in the face and that is why I have become stronger from it. From what you write, it sounds more like you are writing about yourself and that you need to be the one slapped in the face with life. As they say, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger, and I have already had my fair share of near death experiences thank you very much. I understand I do not like certain things in life, but I also understand that other people may very well like them. Hunting comes to mind - I do not care to hunt, but in no way do I think my view on hunting should stop other people from doing what it is they love. That is the true mark of someone grown up incase you didn't notice. Life comes at you fast, and to stop something like you describe is complete senseless nonsense. That is the sign of someone who is far from grown up. Look in the mirror please because you describe yourself, not me.

*sigh* :roll:

-S

[Skybird]

No, not me is the point - it is YOU. Simply you. Not me, not anybody else, not the man in the moon, and not any other entity you choose as a target for simply deflecting anything being told to you. You can dance and irritate and turn it around and deceive as much as you want. It's YOU, teflon-man.

Really, your constant habit of simply recording everything somebody tells you and then exchange your name in it with his and send it all back to sender is nervekilling, tells me that you have no answers yourself, and illustrate a desperate determination of never, never letting anything getting through to you.

And I have lost completely any interest in why you are how you are. Maybe others are interested, but I am not, I have seen this dancing too often now, and it's always the same scheme. If there is a problem hiding under that, than it is your problem. Not mine, not ours, not somebody else's - YOUR problem exclusively.

Anyway, bye.

[SUBMAN1]

No, not me is the point - it is YOU. Simply you. Not me, not anybody else, not the man in the moon, and not any other entity you choose as a target for simply deflecting anything being told to you. You can dance and irritate and turn it around and deceive as much as you want. It's YOU, teflon-man.

Really, your constant habit of simply recording everything somebody tells you and then exchange your name in it with his and send it all back to sender is nervekilling, tells me that you have no answers yourself, and illustrate a desperate determination of never, never letting anything getting through to you.

And I have lost completely any interest in why you are how you are. Maybe others are interested, but I am not, I have seen this dancing too often now, and it's always the same scheme. If there is a problem hiding under that, than it is your problem. Not mine, not ours, not somebody else's - YOUR problem exclusively.

Anyway, bye.
Sad. You are a very sad person. All of this is complete rubbish too. I have never once copied any person on this thread and used it as my own. Please show me otherwise. Your accusations not only are false, but I think this is how you act when proven wrong and its really pathetic. You can't seem to handle it. That is just plain sad.

I am not teflon, but it is interesting how you attack me personally when you have no other argument. That sounds similar to how you attack authors when you can't disprove them. Simple as that. Too bad you are not old enough to understand. Talk about deceit - you are the master.

-S

[Skybird]

And another illustration that my description hit the nail on top. again the pattern: picking the content of the message - replace your name as receiver with that of the original author - and send it back to him, calling his thoughts to you as your own thoughts about him.

Well, your problem.

[SUBMAN1]

And another illustration that my description hit the nail on top. again the pattern: picking the content of the message - replace your name as receiver with that of the original author - and send it back to him, calling his thoughts to you as your own thoughts about him.

Well, your problem.

SHow me an example other than your personal attacks.

[geetrue]

He's just baiting you Subman ... let it go. I've never had a thread closed yet and I don't want to ... back to the fighting Blue Angels.

I'm sure sorry that accident happened ... I didn't know it was his first show.
I'll pray for his replacement ... that's going to be a hard position to fill after what happen.
I'm sure a lot of men will volunteer, but it's still got to weigh heavy on a pilot to replace him knowing what happened.

[Dowly]

Seems like the thread could be about "NEW HABITABLE PLANET FOUND BEHIND THE MOON!" and still, after 4 posts, it would escalate to a fight. I love SubSim. :D

Now, pass me the popcorn. ;)

[MadMike]

Skybird wrote-

"Watch this video and then anybody tell me:
is such nonsens really needed...??? I say this disaster was only this: provoked."

Skybird, you're pathetic. Like I said, I was there, you weren't. Stop showing your ignorance.

Yours, Mike

[Tchocky]

Y'all quit it with the high-horsedness and the personal ****

not worth it
leave it alone

it's a ****ing airshow

nuff said

[MadMike]

http://www.flugtag88.info/resources/crashright4big.jpg

Tchocky wrote-

"Y'all quit it with the high-horsedness and the personal ****

not worth it
leave it alone

it's a ****ing airshow

nuff said"



Whatever :damn:

Yours, Mike

[NefariousKoel]

I've been to numerous air shows in the past. They're fun to watch.

What's the problem?

[SUBMAN1]

I've been to numerous air shows in the past. They're fun to watch.

What's the problem?

There isn't one, but some people want to create one it seems.

-S