Hell

[Skybird]

This news item today left me stunned and shocked:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3792/madeldwpolitikbe222526gkl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In a park in Berlin, this 14 year old girl was put into a small suitcase, the case was closed, then gasoline was spilled over it and set aflame. The girl burned alive. The background of the crime is unknown. Medias are reporting contradictory details on wether she was unconsciousness, or not.

German: http://www.welt.de/berlin/article825775/Verbranntes_Maedchen_war_erst_14_Jahre_alt.html

the ammount of brutality and senselessness simply leaves me "fassungslos".

It reminds me of another ultra-brutal crime some years ago. 12- 15 year old teenager tortured one comrade of theirs, finally forced him to bite into the edge of a pig-trough, and then jumped onto his neck so that his jawbone was shattered and the victim died slowly of suffocation. They said something like that they wanted to do torturing because they had seen it on TV or in some video game. Throughout the trial at court, none of them showed any signs of remorse. They even made jokes about it. The were dressed and looked absolutely "normal".

wherever such kinds of evil are coming from, it surely is not just falling down from the sky, but tells man something about the society he has build with his very own hands.

Terrible.

[down and out]

:o Thats absolutely terrible

Lets hope they get all they deserve when caught

Lets hope sooner rather than later

Its a sad sick world we live in :nope:

[NefariousKoel]

It also makes you wonder when hospitals are installing 'baby night drop-boxes' in the hope that young crazy mothers will abandon their infants as opposed to killing them and dropping the body in a dumpster.

[Skybird]

You seriously compare this - with that...? Second time today I'm speechless.

[NefariousKoel]

You seriously compare this - with that...? Second time today I'm speechless.

What do you mean Skybird? Such atrocities are easily compared to the rise in new mothers killing their infants. Germany had some headlines about the huge rise in infants being killed by their own mothers recently and the rush to install baby drop boxes.

Why would mothers killing their own children in increasing numbers not be compared to other psychotics?

[down and out]

While I agree both cases show a twisted and sick mind
I think placing a 14yr old in a suitcase and pouring petrol over it then burning her alive shows a different degree of brutality and sheer lack of humanity

Neither are good in any event :nope:

[Hitman]

I thought you had a degree in psycholoy, Skybird? Those behaviours, depsite being truly repugnant, are easily explainable -not justificable- sadly. A bad youth education with "everything-is-allowed", a "no-frustration-allowed" society where tolerance is excessive and limits are hardly recognizable, and BINGO, you get young bastards who have no conscience of the feelings of other persons but are just filled with hate and at the same time "empty" in terms of personal wealth. Psychopats. That's the clinical name for them, the only difference is that in earlier centuries they were born like that, and now they are formed like that but our welfare states :damn: Such is life.:down:

[STEED]

We live in a sick world. :nope:

[Skybird]

Haven't I said that the background of the crime is currently unknown? How do you know the mother killed that girl? As a matter of fact the mother is wellknown and reported her as missing to the police one or two days before she was found.

Nefarious Koel,

I have to apologize, I totally misunderstood your posting, und just realize now what you were really saying. Completely my own fault. I red it as if you had said that burning that girl in the suitcase would be the same as if giving a baby to a baby drop box at hospital. I did not realise before now that in fact you said that these boxes are to be preferred instead of killing a baby. I'm sorry for having messed up the talking.

[bradclark1]

There are times when I believe that the perpetrator should receive the same treatment as the victim. This is one of those times, if it ever gets solved.

[Safe-Keeper]

You have to be very, very, very sick to do that. Killing is bad enough, killing someone young is worse, and killing somone young by fire... I can hardly think of worse ways to die than to be killed by flames in a dark, claustrophobic briefcase. Condolences to her family and buddies.

The were dressed and looked absolutely "normal".So were the 9/11 hijackers. I saw this clip of them some years later in college sweaters and they looked like any other young American male.

Evil people, unlike in fantasy, are not necessarily exceedingly ugly and/or scary appearance-wise. The world would be so much easier if reality was like certain cartoons - pretty good, ugly bad. But no, it could perfectly well be your Amnesty member babysitting kids who does the next murder.

That's the clinical name for them, the only difference is that in earlier centuries they were born like that, and now they are formed like that but our welfare states :damn: Such is life.:down:Political views are one thing, but unfounded accusations such as that one are uncalled for. Feel free to attack leftist economics and 'liberal morality', but please do not make such claims without at least giving a source to back them up.

[Yahoshua]

The world has become far more violent than was the case in years past.

Condolences to the family.

[Skybird]

The girl was known to the police to be consuming soft drugs (what caused a reader of the Tagesspiegel to ask what is going wrong in our society if 14 year old already "has a police-known history of consuming drugs", even if it were soft ones.) It's wild guessing since nothing is know currently, but I could at least imagine that the perpetrators are to be found within her clique, probably juveniles as well, maybe stoned at the time of the deed. but that is speculation by me. Her family home was described as "normal bürgerlich". The fire was reported by three youngster who passed through that park. the body was burned so heavily that they needed a genetic analysis to learn about her true age and identity. Initially it was believed the body was that of a 20 year old woman.

[Hitman]

Political views are one thing, but unfounded accusations such as that one are uncalled for. Feel free to attack leftist economics and 'liberal morality', but please do not make such claims without at least giving a source to back them up.

Unfounded? You want a source to back them up? Sure. I am that source. I have been working in the courts already for some years now, including non-adult courts, and I can tell from 1st hand experience the origin of many of those social problems. It has nothing to do with politics -If politics is to be understood in the classical meaning of "ways of exercising the directing power in a society"- and I do not attack leftist economics or liberal morality. This has nothing to do with economics, but rather with a degradation of some concepts, including that of the welfare state.

I have talked with many pshicologists and psychiaters when having criminal cases with under-18 kids involved, and conclussions were normally more or less similar: Lack of authority in the parents, near-total vacuum of authority in the school (here's where the state comes in) and as such, a formation of youngsters with no clear limits and no conscience for the suffering of others. While those are obsviously some extreme cases, the illness of the system is evident. These last years the ratio of attacks against teachers has grown enormously here in Spain. When the teacher calls the parents, the result has been more than often an attack by the parents to the teacher:o . There is no respect for the state or the authority represented by the teacher, all that people seem to think of the modern state is "I have right to this and to that" and "I have no responsability, it is the others who have it". Did you know that 25% of the claims against the civil administration of the state in the courts are because someone fell in the street and wants a economic compensation arguing that the street was not in perfect conditions? :o There is a zero tolerance to frustration, pain and effort in our society, everything bad seems to need be responsability of others and of course a compensation must come in terms of money. That's already an existing feeling, to a certain degree, in a vast majority of the population. Further examples: Leaving the car bad parked (F**ck the other guy if he can't take his car out, I will be back in some minutes), making excessive noise at home with radio, TV, or a party (Neighbours? Who cares about them?) and so on and on. And children SEE how they parents act like that. The more antisocial the parents, the more antisocial the sons. A lack of respect for others slowly turns into something much worser, I have seen it daily in the court in different degrees, mild or heavy.

When a child grows in such an environment, the limits are not clear to him. He thinks he has right to demand anything and that translates sooner or later in violent behaviours when frustration of not achieving something appears. The need for new sensations and limit experiences increases, as it is a form of quest for the limits. The limits nobody has taught them so far. And when they trespass the limit and finally find it, the result is way too terrible to go backwards. This history is to be seen DAILY in a court, just digging into the personal situation of a criminal youngster is enough to show in 90% of the situations the same pattern.

One example in recent spanish youngster criminal history: A girl was kidnapped, raped and killed by a group of under-18 kids. To kill her, they beaten her and then run a car several times forward and backward over her. Because she did not die, they burnt her alive.

It is stadistically impossible that all of them were born as psychopats. And yet they all behaved as psychopats, because they had been in fact educated like that.:down: They became sociopats! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathy

While this can happen anywhere and anytime, it is becoming increasingly frequent in the modern 1st world civilization. Too frequent. I can point you to some documentation of the State Prosecutor in Spain, where he informs how the youngster criminality increases above the increase in population levels, but it is written in spanish:hmm: And IMO the cause of a good part of that is the degradation of many of our cultural concepts. A relaxation in the laws and culture slowly leads to a relaxation of limits to certain behaviours. When it starts to be an extended behaviour to ignore the neighbour and behave as if the individual is the only one around, and who has right to do whatever he wants, when courtesy and good manners dissapear from daily life and rubbish behaviour takes its place, sooner or later the extreme violent actions start becoming frequent, and not isolated situations.

[kiwi_2005]

Pure evil exist, without it humans could not do crimes like such.

Just from my thoughts right now,

Common punishment during the apartied era, Placing a tyre around childs neck and setting it a light, for being a snitch.

Korea war taking babies of mothers grabbing them by the legs and smash them against the wall - making sure the parents watch.

WW2 - The gassing of Jews because they're Jews nothing else.

Thats all i can think off but the list could go on foreva.

Evil.

[Skybird]

Terms like psychopaths and sociopaths have no real representation in current versions of the ICD (WHO's International Classification of Diseases, chapter F). The terms were erased from modern psychiatry for they have been found to be negatively occupied and discriminating (PC=psychological correctness, for the same reason we do not know "hysterics" anymore. Homosexuality also was deleted from both classification systems ICD and DSM - diagnostical and statistical manual, which replaces the ICD in north America. Imagine: hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbians were suddenly healed by ripping one page out of a book... :) ). They only appear in some chapter's appendices. "psychotic" today is more used to describe a severe degree of another kind of personality or affective disorder, and we only know personality/affective problems with disorders in social behavior - no sociopathy.

Can'T say I like it.

But even in the old classic or triadic system of psychiatry, the meaning of these two terms was slightly different than the use of these terms in this topic.

I personally ignore the modern system and always sticked to the older concepts. At least theoretically, for there never was much need for me to fiddle with these categories anyway.

[U-533]

Terms like psychopaths and sociopaths have no real representation in current versions of the ICD (WHO's International Classification of Diseases, chapter F). The terms were erased from modern psychiatry for they have been found to be negatively occupied and discriminating (PC=psychological correctness, for the same reason we do not know "hysterics" anymore. Homosexuality also was deleted from both classification systems ICD and DSM - diagnostical and statistical manual, which replaces the ICD in north America. Imagine: hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbians were suddenly healed by ripping one page out of a book... :) ). They only appear in some chapter's appendices. "psychotic" today is more used to describe a severe degree of another kind of personality or affective disorder, and we only know personality/affective problems with disorders in social behavior - no sociopathy.

Can'T say I like it.

But even in the old classic or triadic system of psychiatry, the meaning of these two terms was slightly different than the use of these terms in this topic.

I personally ignore the modern system and always sticked to the older concepts. At least theoretically, for there never was much need for me to fiddle with these categories anyway.

You are much more educated in this kind of stuff than I will ever be.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++======

My Father and Grandfather would talk about such atrocities that happened in their day...

My Grandfather would say some thing like...

''When that SOB gets caught they aught ta hang him in the town square... let the body swing in the breeze a few days as a gentle reminder to other would be murderers"

My dad would say...

"Well they should put him in the "Chair ''and cook him crispy" (but right after that he would say) " But some psychologist would think that was wrong and he would get the Murderer off with some insanity plea."

-----

This world has gone around the bend... there is no turning back... if we allow this sort of thing to continue.

If you vote for Me as the next "Galactic Emperor" I will begin cleaning out our over crowded prisons with PUBLIC: Hangings - Crucifixions - and Firing Squads.

Also I will stop 'insanity pleas' or other 'mental heath issues' from being used as a scape goat.

:sunny:

[Skybird]

You are much more educated in this kind of stuff than I will ever be.

No wonder, since it has been my profession, years ago. The military professionals on this board know more about military stuff than I do. The lawyers here know more about jurisdiction than the others of us. The business men here know more about the practice of trade and dealing with the procedures at their offices, and so I happen to know a bit about psychology. But since it is long time over for me, I already have started to forget most of it! So, it is only a question of time until some other psychologist eventually shows up here on the board who knows more about certain kinds of stuff than I do. I have stopped being busy with it. My feilds of special interests were not general psychiatry anyway, but thanatology, meditation, traumatization, existential philosophy and spiritual quests, and changes of consciousness as a result of extreme conditions, experiences, or certain types of drugs.

There is nothing wrong with the leagl option of insanity pleas, becasue diverse forms of reduced sanity simply does exist. The problem is that this option apparently gets excessively abused. Also, the changes in terminology as I described in my reply above have another reason that I forgot to mention:

The classical description of "psychopathy" and "sociopathy" concluded that such psychiatric disorders cannot be treated and are impossible to heal. This is a great offegnding for psychology - that for historical reasons tries so very hard to give the impression to have to say something on anything, and that there is nothing that it cannot deal with. The classifications that are choosen today make a conclusion that a person cannot be treated much more unlikely. This correlates with more opportunities, for example at courts, to claim a case of mental disturbances a case not for the law, but for psychology in general. And that growth in perceived importance of psyhcology in everyday life is what it is actively seeking for, and what the policy of psycholoigical interest associations are trying to push forward in politics, and society.

Believe me, I never have shed a tear to have turned my back on this profession. In the situation I was in back then I would have only been able to make a living from it when submitting to the populistic, "official" paradigms of psychotherpay as it is offered (and payed for by health insurances) in Germany. And that was an option I could not bring into congruence with my conscience.

So, the poessebiltiy to accept mental disorders as an argument for sending somebody to hospital instead of prison is somethign that is okay and that I would not miss. But the massive abuse, and the many wrong assessments of future chances of to-be-released patients, is a big problem indeed. Especially in Germany with regard to sexual offenders who get released with an assessement of good perspectives not to become recidivistic (?) again - but our statistic shows that these assumptions were wrong in simply too many cases. Many sexual offenders brought to trial - are persistent offenders. The options and capabilities of psachotherapy are far more limited with regard to many syndroms, symptoms and disorders than psychology is ready to admit. It would make itself less valuable by that, and that cannot be, right?

[U-533]

You are much more educated in this kind of stuff than I will ever be.

No wonder, since it has been my profession, years ago. The military professionals on this board know more about military stuff than I do. The lawyers here know more about jurisdiction than the others of us. The business men here know more about the practice of trade and dealing with the procedures at their offices, and so I happen to know a bit about psychology. But since it is long time over for me, I already have started to forget most of it! So, it is only a question of time until some other psychologist eventually shows up here on the board who knows more about certain kinds of stuff than I do. I have stopped being busy with it. My feilds of special interests were not general psychiatry anyway, but thanatology, meditation, traumatization, existential philosophy and spiritual quests, and changes of consciousness as a result of extreme conditions, experiences, or certain types of drugs.

There is nothing wrong with the leagl option of insanity pleas, becasue diverse forms of reduced sanity simply does exist. The problem is that this option apparently gets excessively abused. Also, the changes in terminology as I described in my reply above have another reason that I forgot to mention:

The classical description of "psychopathy" and "sociopathy" concluded that such psychiatric disorders cannot be treated and are impossible to heal. This is a great offegnding for psychology - that for historical reasons tries so very hard to give the impression to have to say something on anything, and that there is nothing that it cannot deal with. The classifications that are choosen today make a conclusion that a person cannot be treated much more unlikely. This correlates with more opportunities, for example at courts, to claim a case of mental disturbances a case not for the law, but for psychology in general. And that growth in perceived importance of psyhcology in everyday life is what it is actively seeking for, and what the policy of psycholoigical interest associations are trying to push forward in politics, and society.

Believe me, I never have shed a tear to have turned my back on this profession. In the situation I was in back then I would have only been able to make a living from it when submitting to the populistic, "official" paradigms of psychotherpay as it is offered (and payed for by health insurances) in Germany. And that was an option I could not bring into congruence with my conscience.

So, the poessebiltiy to accept mental disorders as an argument for sending somebody to hospital instead of prison is somethign that is okay and that I would not miss. But the massive abuse, and the many wrong assessments of future chances of to-be-released patients, is a big problem indeed. Especially in Germany with regard to sexual offenders who get released with an assessement of good perspectives not to become recidivistic (?) again - but our statistic shows that these assumptions were wrong in simply too many cases. Many sexual offenders brought to trial - are persistent offenders. The options and capabilities of psachotherapy are far more limited with regard to many syndroms, symptoms and disorders than psychology is ready to admit. It would make itself less valuable by that, and that cannot be, right?

Yes ...

I totally agree.

I insanity plea is abused.

The rest of what you posted remains a mystery to me...

Skybird I read it but it just goes over my head and my eyes glaze over my mouth falls open and I begin drooling on my key board...my wife nudges me and says

"Your reading Skybird again aren't you?"

[Skybird]

That difficult...? Probably I messed up the language again, then...

[U-533]

That difficult...? Probably I messed up the language again, then...

No no... I just can not connect the makings of the mind as some one trained like you are...so it is my ignorance that blocks me from understanding...thus I have to stand where I stand and drool where I drool.

[U-533]

bump... shameless kind