Gun-Free-School-Fraud Costs Lives Again

[SUBMAN1]

This one should raise a few eyebrows here.

-S

Virginia Is Latest State to Suffer


Another armed murderer has used the so-called Gun-Free-School-Zones law to simply walk onto school grounds and with impunity begin killing innocent children.


These dangerous criminals rely on the fact that no one on campus will be able to offer resistance. Congress passed the law in 1990 and renewed it in 1995 after the famous "Lopez" case declared it unconstitutional. Though it cannot stop murderers it has enabled many, experts say. States and schools themselves have copied the law locally for a false sense of security with disastrous effect...


Continue reading here:
http://pagenine.typepad.com/page_nine/2007/04/gunfreeschoolfr_1.html#more

[UglyMowgli]

I prefer free gun school, my GF is professor in a University, imagine a guy/girl with a F at an exam, he/her draw his/her handgun and shoot at her just because she give him/her a F.

[Etienne]

From my limited knowledge, it seems that the best way to prevent school shoot outs, or just random knife fights, is to have metal detector screenings at the doors.

If you allow students to carry concealed, their purpose is defeated.

Someone on another board I frequent also brought up an interesting point. Suppose students are allowed to carry. One of them hears shot, pulls out his gun ("Yay, I'm Rambo!") and runs out in the hallway toward the sound of the shot.

Another student hears the shots, see someone running with a gun. Pulls out his own, and boom! Friendly fire!

Plus, it's not like the VT events are a common occurence. At all. A more common situation would be two students getting in an arguments, and having it escalate. Of course, no one would be stupid enough to pull a gun on someone over some petty disagreement.

Etienne

[SUBMAN1]

I prefer free gun school, my GF is professor in a University, imagine a guy/girl with a F at an exam, he/her draw his/her handgun and shoot at her just because she give him/her a F.

Maybe that happenes in France...

[Letum]

:huh:

I'm not saying this wouldn't partially work....but it's hardly a ideal solution to have firefights in the classroom and it's hardly doing anything to deal with the cause of Americas mass-murdering students.
I am 100% sure there are better solutions.

Students in the UK might stab each other in muggings or when they fall out, but we don't get students shooting large numbers of class mates like America does. As far as I know, the same goes from the rest of Europe.
Clearly America is going wrong somewhere, until the causes are identified and fixed the killings will continue to go on, how ever many guns you give to the young people in the classrooms.

[SUBMAN1]

From my limited knowledge, it seems that the best way to prevent school shoot outs, or just random knife fights, is to have metal detector screenings at the doors.

If you allow students to carry concealed, their purpose is defeated.

Someone on another board I frequent also brought up an interesting point. Suppose students are allowed to carry. One of them hears shot, pulls out his gun ("Yay, I'm Rambo!") and runs out in the hallway toward the sound of the shot.

Another student hears the shots, see someone running with a gun. Pulls out his own, and boom! Friendly fire!

Plus, it's not like the VT events are a common occurence. At all. A more common situation would be two students getting in an arguments, and having it escalate. Of course, no one would be stupid enough to pull a gun on someone over some petty disagreement.

Etienne

It is because you don't understand. If I carry a gun, and hear a gun shot, I am in no way going anywhere near the shot in the middle of a bunch of people. Forget it. Its a good way to get killed is why since it would be hard to pick out who the shooter was and he might see you first. To think that one would want to get into a firefight is one that has seen one too many movies. That is our big problem in this world - media. Media has twisted and warped our minds on many subjects. I guess we and these crazies are a product of our own society.

-S

[UglyMowgli]

You hear a shot, all people alos, so there is at least 200 gumens in the area with a gun in the hand, what to you think it will happen a mass cross murder, at the end not 30 death but 250.

[Sailor Steve]

From my limited knowledge, it seems that the best way to prevent school shoot outs, or just random knife fights, is to have metal detector screenings at the doors.
It's hard to make that work on a university campus, where most of the school's area is outside. Besides, if a metal detector goes off, who do you have inside to respond? Someone with a gun. A metal detector by itself is useless.

Posts suggesting that guns lead to uncontrolled firefights are made by people unfamiliar with guns. I've worked in situations where people had weapons, and not one person ever pulled a gun and opened fire.

[SUBMAN1]

You hear a shot, all people alos, so there is at least 200 gumens in the area with a gun in the hand, what to you think it will happen a mass cross murder, at the end not 30 death but 250.
Hardly. Nothing happens, as was shown in previous 2 school attempted shootings in which the school shooter was apprehended by civi's who happened to have their firearm present. So your 250 deaths only ended up being 1 in one case, and 0 in the next. This is how things should be, but this can only happen if CPP holders are allowed to carry on campus.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

:huh:

I'm not saying this wouldn't partially work....but it's hardly a ideal solution to have firefights in the classroom and it's hardly doing anything to deal with the cause of Americas mass-murdering students.
I am 100% sure there are better solutions.

Students in the UK might stab each other in muggings or when they fall out, but we don't get students shooting large numbers of class mates like America does. As far as I know, the same goes from the rest of Europe.
Clearly America is going wrong somewhere, until the causes are identified and fixed the killings will continue to go on, how ever many guns you give to the young people in the classrooms.

You are right in a way. It is a social problem. SOmething is making these people snap. Is it American pressures?

[Heibges]

When he writes "FBI-certified" he just means a National Agency Check, which just happens to be done by the FBI, and only amounts to a search to see if you have a criminal record. The way he makes it sound all these people are taking the firearms course at Quantico.

This little bit of doublespeak just about cripples his argument.

[SUBMAN1]

When he writes "FBI-certified" he just means a National Agency Check, which just happens to be done by the FBI, and only amounts to a search to see if you have a criminal record. The way he makes it sound all these people are taking the firearms course at Quantico.

This little bit of doublespeak just about cripples his argument.
Most states do require a course however. You wouldn't know though because you live in Socialistic San Fran that doesn't allow CPP's! :D Where he is from is AZ which is also one of those states that req a course.

[waste gate]

:huh:

Students in the UK might stab each other in muggings or when they fall out, but we don't get students shooting large numbers of class mates like America does. As far as I know, the same goes from the rest of Europe.
Clearly America is going wrong somewhere, until the causes are identified and fixed the killings will continue to go on, how ever many guns you give to the young people in the classrooms.





Eighteen people died when an expelled former pupil went on a shooting spree at his school in the German city of Erfurt. Masked and dressed in black, the gunman walked through classrooms killing 14 teachers, two schoolgirls and one of the first policemen on the scene before taking his own life. He was clothed completely in black and you could only see his eyes. Pupils of the Gutenberg School spent four hours trapped inside before police could declare the building safe. Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder described the massacre in the quiet provincial city as "beyond the powers of the imagination".

And this account from the New York Times in 1995: After murdering three relatives at home, a teen-ager walked to the next village today and calmly opened fire on a quiet town square, killing nine more people before turning the gun on himself. The incident was the country's worst multiple killing since 1989. "It was like he was hunting birds," said Guy Sintes, the owner of a cafe on the square in Cuers, a village near the Mediterranean port of Toulon. Television footage from the scene showed sidewalks and a car spattered with blood and a bullet hole through a shop window. "The people are devastated, totally traumatized," said the Mayor of Cuers, Guy Gigou. "The village is in shock." The boy was identified as Eric Borel, 16. The impetus for the killings was unclear. His father died recently of cancer. Neighbors, interviewed on French television, described him as taciturn and said his room was plastered with posters of Hitler and neo-Nazi themes.

Edit:
27-year-old Michael Ryan shot to death 16 people and wounded 14 others in the small farming community of Hungerford during the summer of 1987. After a "Rambo style" blood feast through the streets of Hungerford, he barricaded himself in a school building where he killed himself with a single gunshot to his head. The gunman, a loner who lived with his elderly mother, loved guns and television violence. The killing spree started in a forest outside of Hungerford. Wearing combat fatigues Ryan killed a woman who was preparing a picnic for her two children. Then he drove back to his house and killed his mother and the dog and set fire to the house. For the next two hours Ryan moved through the town, randomly killing or wounding anyone he met.
Ryan's rampage ended at the Local High School. Despondent over having killed his mum and dog, Ryan commented "I wish I had stayed in bed". After 4 hours and several talks with the police, he ended his life with the last round in his 9-mm. pistol. After his deadly rampage the British government took steps to end the right to have firearms, and to curtail television violence. Also, the film Rambo III was banned in several towns in the UK, because of Ryan's claim of being inspired by Rambo


Edit 2:
Marc Lepine killed 14 women at a Montreal university in 1989, believing feminists had wrecked his life.

Edit 3:
Thomas Hamilton (17) An avid gun collector and disgraced scoutmaster, Hamilton was known as "Mr. Creepy" by the boys in Dunblane, Scotland, a village 40 miles from Edinburg. Disliked by all his neighbors, Tom enjoyed taking pictures of young boys with their shirts off. His fixation with young boys eventually got him dropped by the Boys Scouts. In the 1980s he sponsored boys' athletic clubs but it just wasn't the same. Sadly, Hamilton never got over being dropped as a scoutmaster. After nearly twenty years, he was still seething with anger. A week before his deadly rampage Thomas wrote a letter to Queen Elizabeth II complaining about a campaign to ruin his reputation. The shame was just too much for him.
On March 13, 1996, Hamilton walked to the Dunblane Primary School with payback in mind. Armed with four guns, he burst into the gymnasium where 29 children were attending class. The vengeful ex-scoutmaster systematically slaughtered 16 kids, their teacher and then shot himself. Another teacher and a dozen other students were wounded during the rampage. The children, ages 5 and 6, were sitting in circles on the floor playing when Hamilton started firing. 13 kids died instantly. Three more died later in the hospital. Surrounded by bodies of the dead and dying, 43-year-old Hamilton turned the gun on himself and put a bullet through his brain.

Eric Borel (13) A bored French teenager, Eric woke up a Sunday morning with death on his mind. On September 24, 1995 Borel killed his mother, stepfather and brother with a hammer and a baseball bat. Then he picked up his .22-caliber hunting rifle, walked six miles to the village of Cuers and opened fire in a parking lot outside a bank and in the town square. During his half-hour morning rampage, he killed seven more people and wounded nine others before putting a bullet through his head. Two of the wounded died later in the hospital. Neighbors said the teenager was taciturn and probably upset over his father's recent death from cancer. The posters of Hitler and other neo-Nazi themes plastered all over his room also might have fueled his rage.

David Gray (13) New Zealand's worst mass murderer. In November 13, 1990, David slaughtered 13 people during a 24-hour rampage in the hamlet of Aramoana, a tiny seaside settlement in the province of Otago, near Dunedin in the South Island. He was finally shot dead by police.

[SUBMAN1]

:huh:

Students in the UK might stab each other in muggings or when they fall out, but we don't get students shooting large numbers of class mates like America does. As far as I know, the same goes from the rest of Europe.
Clearly America is going wrong somewhere, until the causes are identified and fixed the killings will continue to go on, how ever many guns you give to the young people in the classrooms.




Eighteen people died when an expelled former pupil went on a shooting spree at his school in the German city of Erfurt. Masked and dressed in black, the gunman walked through classrooms killing 14 teachers, two schoolgirls and one of the first policemen on the scene before taking his own life. He was clothed completely in black and you could only see his eyes. Pupils of the Gutenberg School spent four hours trapped inside before police could declare the building safe. Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder described the massacre in the quiet provincial city as "beyond the powers of the imagination".

And this account from the New York Times in 1995: After murdering three relatives at home, a teen-ager walked to the next village today and calmly opened fire on a quiet town square, killing nine more people before turning the gun on himself. The incident was the country's worst multiple killing since 1989. "It was like he was hunting birds," said Guy Sintes, the owner of a cafe on the square in Cuers, a village near the Mediterranean port of Toulon. Television footage from the scene showed sidewalks and a car spattered with blood and a bullet hole through a shop window. "The people are devastated, totally traumatized," said the Mayor of Cuers, Guy Gigou. "The village is in shock." The boy was identified as Eric Borel, 16. The impetus for the killings was unclear. His father died recently of cancer. Neighbors, interviewed on French television, described him as taciturn and said his room was plastered with posters of Hitler and neo-Nazi themes.

Edit:
27-year-old Michael Ryan shot to death 16 people and wounded 14 others in the small farming community of Hungerford during the summer of 1987. After a "Rambo style" blood feast through the streets of Hungerford, he barricaded himself in a school building where he killed himself with a single gunshot to his head. The gunman, a loner who lived with his elderly mother, loved guns and television violence. The killing spree started in a forest outside of Hungerford. Wearing combat fatigues Ryan killed a woman who was preparing a picnic for her two children. Then he drove back to his house and killed his mother and the dog and set fire to the house. For the next two hours Ryan moved through the town, randomly killing or wounding anyone he met.
Ryan's rampage ended at the Local High School. Despondent over having killed his mum and dog, Ryan commented "I wish I had stayed in bed". After 4 hours and several talks with the police, he ended his life with the last round in his 9-mm. pistol. After his deadly rampage the British government took steps to end the right to have firearms, and to curtail television violence. Also, the film Rambo III was banned in several towns in the UK, because of Ryan's claim of being inspired by Rambo


Edit 2:
Marc Lepine killed 14 women at a Montreal university in 1989, believing feminists had wrecked his life.

Edit 3:
Thomas Hamilton (17) An avid gun collector and disgraced scoutmaster, Hamilton was known as "Mr. Creepy" by the boys in Dunblane, Scotland, a village 40 miles from Edinburg. Disliked by all his neighbors, Tom enjoyed taking pictures of young boys with their shirts off. His fixation with young boys eventually got him dropped by the Boys Scouts. In the 1980s he sponsored boys' athletic clubs but it just wasn't the same. Sadly, Hamilton never got over being dropped as a scoutmaster. After nearly twenty years, he was still seething with anger. A week before his deadly rampage Thomas wrote a letter to Queen Elizabeth II complaining about a campaign to ruin his reputation. The shame was just too much for him.
On March 13, 1996, Hamilton walked to the Dunblane Primary School with payback in mind. Armed with four guns, he burst into the gymnasium where 29 children were attending class. The vengeful ex-scoutmaster systematically slaughtered 16 kids, their teacher and then shot himself. Another teacher and a dozen other students were wounded during the rampage. The children, ages 5 and 6, were sitting in circles on the floor playing when Hamilton started firing. 13 kids died instantly. Three more died later in the hospital. Surrounded by bodies of the dead and dying, 43-year-old Hamilton turned the gun on himself and put a bullet through his brain.

Eric Borel (13) A bored French teenager, Eric woke up a Sunday morning with death on his mind. On September 24, 1995 Borel killed his mother, stepfather and brother with a hammer and a baseball bat. Then he picked up his .22-caliber hunting rifle, walked six miles to the village of Cuers and opened fire in a parking lot outside a bank and in the town square. During his half-hour morning rampage, he killed seven more people and wounded nine others before putting a bullet through his head. Two of the wounded died later in the hospital. Neighbors said the teenager was taciturn and probably upset over his father's recent death from cancer. The posters of Hitler and other neo-Nazi themes plastered all over his room also might have fueled his rage.

David Gray (13) New Zealand's worst mass murderer. In November 13, 1990, David slaughtered 13 people during a 24-hour rampage in the hamlet of Aramoana, a tiny seaside settlement in the province of Otago, near Dunedin in the South Island. He was finally shot dead by police.

Guess that pretty much puts to rest the "It doesn't happen in Europe" BS.

-S

[tycho102]

Most states do require a course however.
I don't know of any state that doesn't require a course.

In my state, you also have to be 23 years of age. And when the putz at the county jail can't fingerprint you properly, you have to go down to the state investigative bureau to get fingerprinted by some neurotic short chick. Even if your prints and DNA sample are already on file with the FBI, and you previously held a security clearance.



My only complaint is efficiency and the neurotic short chicks who tell you you're not relaxing your finger enough when it's actually just the fact she has to reach up to the counter to roll your finger across the page. Get a footstool, hunny.

[Tchocky]

Of course it happens in Europe, I'd take issue with Letum's phrasing but not his intention..

School shootings are a much more serious problem in America than in Europe.

[SUBMAN1]

Of course it happens in Europe, I'd take issue with Letum's phrasing but not his intention..

School shootings are a much more serious problem in America than in Europe.

WHy don't you divide up the US into 50 states so that we can be on par with Europe country vs state, and then rephrase that. From what is listed above, you are pretty close to being on par with us. You talk like this happens every year here, or worse, every day.

[Tchocky]

WHy don't you divide up the US into 50 states so that we can be on par with Europe country vs state, and then rephrase that. I'm not bothered, sorry :). I also don't think European country = US state would be a valid comparison, given the huge difference between some European states and all US states in gun laws.
From what is listed above, you are pretty close to being on par with us. You talk like this happens every year here, or worse, every day. No, I don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

In fatal incidents, going back to 1927, I count 53.

33 of those are from inside the US.
The rest of the world (not just Europe) accounts for the remaining twenty.

[tycho102]

Dude. How about counting your football games, too?

[UglyMowgli]

In europe the only country were there is a lot of crime by gun is swizerland because all male keep their asault rifle at home after conscription, each year there is more or less 300 deads only by assault rifle in this country.

[Ostfriese]

WHy don't you divide up the US into 50 states so that we can be on par with Europe country vs state, and then rephrase that.

Show me one US state with 80 million inhabitants (like Germany) or 60 million inhabitants (like France, the UK, Italy), and then we maybe can start talking about being on par.

[TteFAboB]

WHy don't you divide up the US into 50 states so that we can be on par with Europe country vs state, and then rephrase that.

Show me one US state with 80 million inhabitants (like Germany) or 60 million inhabitants (like France, the UK, Italy), and then we maybe can start talking about being on par.

So you believe it's more accurate to compare 80 million with 300?

[Ostfriese]

SSo you believe it's more accurate to compare 80 million with 300?

Where did I say this? I usually compare percentages, as they offer accurate comparisons.

[SUBMAN1]

SSo you believe it's more accurate to compare 80 million with 300?
Where did I say this? I usually compare percentages, as they offer accurate comparisons.

SO start comparing then. I don't see any comparrisons yet from you using percentages.

[Tchocky]

Dude. How about counting your football games, too?
Uh huh.

@SUBMAN - Any response? It seems from what I posted that school shootings are more common in the US than in the rest of the world put together. I think my statement " School shootings are a much more serious problem in America than in Europe." stands.

[waste gate]

Dude. How about counting your football games, too?
Uh huh.

@SUBMAN - Any response? It seems from what I posted that school shootings are more common in the US than in the rest of the world put together. I think my statement " School shootings are a much more serious problem in America than in Europe." stands.

I pray you are correct in your assesment. I'd hate to hear that Europe has reverted to its long standing tradition of mass murder.

[Tchocky]

I pray you are correct in your assesment. I'd hate to hear that Europe has reverted to its long standing tradition of mass murder.

You don't have to pray, check my wikipedia link and judge for yourself. :up:

[waste gate]

I pray you are correct in your assesment. I'd hate to hear that Europe has reverted to its long standing tradition of mass murder.

You don't have to pray, check my wikipedia link and judge for yourself. :up:

Please post the link here Tchocky. I'd like to read it.

[waste gate]

I pray you are correct in your assesment. I'd hate to hear that Europe has reverted to its long standing tradition of mass murder.

You don't have to pray, check my wikipedia link and judge for yourself. :up:

Please post the link here Tchocky. I'd like to read it.

Got it.

[waste gate]

I see a great many crimes here. As unfortunate and devistating as they are, and believe me, when I tell you how horrified I am, the people who perpertrated the crimes were, by every law, in all fifty states in our union, criminal in every action and sense of the word.

I have seen many laws promulgated because of a few bad actors. I'm sure you have also. Like everything else in a democratic nation the lives of the few are often sacrificed for the freedom of the many. I am very concerned for the families of those who lost their loved ones.

Basic freedoms are paramount. Because your culture and your countries poplulace does not wish to exercise those freedoms does not abrogate them.
As horrible as it may seem the VT students who died did so in advancement of all peoples rights to defend themselves, be it from their government or any individual who is bent on doing them harm.

[Tchocky]

I have seen many laws promulgated because of a few bad actors. I'm sure you have also. Like everything else in a democratic nation the lives of the few are often sacrificed for the freedom of the many. I am very concerned for the families of those who lost their loved ones. The people who died at VT were a sacrifice?

Basic freedoms are paramount. Because your culture and your countries poplulace does not wish to exercise those freedoms does not abrogate them. Maybe my government is making a value judgement.
If guns can be shown to have a net negative effect on society, should the concept of individual liberty prevail over the well-being of the society as a whole? I believe that the liberty of gun ownership in the US unfairly violates the individual liberties of many of it's citizens, such as the right to life.
As horrible as it may seem the VT students who died did so in advancement of all peoples rights to defend themselves, be it from their government or any individual who is bent on doing them harm. Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them. I see the US gun laws as allowing this to happen, Cho for example .

[waste gate]

I have seen many laws promulgated because of a few bad actors. I'm sure you have also. Like everything else in a democratic nation the lives of the few are often sacrificed for the freedom of the many. I am very concerned for the families of those who lost their loved ones.
Basic freedoms are paramount. Because your culture and your countries poplulace does not wish to exercise those freedoms does not abrogate them. The people who died at VT were a sacrifice? Maybe my government is making a value judgement.
If guns can be shown to have a net negative effect on society, should the concept of individual liberty prevail over the well-being of the society as a whole? I believe that the liberty of gun ownership in the US unfairly violates the individual liberties of many of it's citizens, such as the right to life.
As horrible as it may seem the VT students who died did so in advancement of all peoples rights to defend themselves, be it from their government or any individual who is bent on doing them harm. Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them. I see the US gun laws as allowing this to happen, Cho for example .



The people who died at VT were a sacrifice?

Yes, unfortunately, they are the price of real freedom.



If guns can be shown to have a net negative effect on society, should the concept of individual liberty prevail over the well-being of the society as a whole? I believe that the liberty of gun ownership in the US unfairly violates the individual liberties of many of it's citizens, such as the right to life.


Please don't get me started here. Abortion.



Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them. I see the US gun laws as allowing this to happen, Cho for example


Other rights are in play also. I give you our fourth amendement.


If I missed anything please don't hesitate to point it out.

[August]

Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them

No they shouldn't, as BTW the law already dictates. One big problem with enforcement however is the refusal of the medical establishment to report the names of people who have been diagnosed with mental illness.

The NRA favors an instant backround check for all firearm purchases nationally but that isn't going to help if there is no national database for such people.

[waste gate]

Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them

No they shouldn't, as BTW the law already dictates. One big problem with enforcement however is the refusal of the medical establishment to report the names of people who have been diagnosed with mental illness.

The NRA favors an instant backround check for all firearm purchases nationally but that isn't going to help if there is no national database for such people.

I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant.

[P_Funk]

Yes, but should dangerous weapons be put in the hands of those not fit to use them
No they shouldn't, as BTW the law already dictates. One big problem with enforcement however is the refusal of the medical establishment to report the names of people who have been diagnosed with mental illness.

The NRA favors an instant backround check for all firearm purchases nationally but that isn't going to help if there is no national database for such people.
I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant. I'm speechless. I completely agree with you.:o

I need to go re-evaluate my world view.

[August]

I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant.

I fail to see how a national database for criminals and people with a history of mental illness would automatically lead to warrentless searches, but without it people like that VT monster can just lie on the form and buy all the guns they want.

[P_Funk]

I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant.
I fail to see how a national database for criminals and people with a history of mental illness would automatically lead to warrentless searches, but without it people like that VT monster can just lie on the form and buy all the guns they want.
Maybe it shouldn't just take 2 minutes to buy a gun anyway.

Takes me more than a year to get a driver's liscense. Why should a gun be so easy to get anyway?

[SUBMAN1]

Maybe it shouldn't just take 2 minutes to buy a gun anyway.

Takes me more than a year to get a driver's liscense. Why should a gun be so easy to get anyway?

A rifle maybe. Most states have a 2 week waiting period on a handgun since its easy to conceal.

They call it a cooling off period.

[SUBMAN1]

I fail to see how a national database for criminals and people with a history of mental illness would automatically lead to warrentless searches, but without it people like that VT monster can just lie on the form and buy all the guns they want.

No, he is referencing taking away all arms. You missed the point. Re-read what he wrote.

-S

[waste gate]

I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant.
I fail to see how a national database for criminals and people with a history of mental illness would automatically lead to warrentless searches, but without it people like that VT monster can just lie on the form and buy all the guns they want.
Maybe it shouldn't just take 2 minutes to buy a gun anyway.

Takes me more than a year to get a driver's liscense. Why should a gun be so easy to get anyway?

Because one is a right and the other is a priveledge.

[waste gate]

I know what you are trying to say August but you don't want to give up your right to privacy. Like your right to bear arms it is a basic human right.

If we do, soon they will walking into your home without a warrant.

I fail to see how a national database for criminals and people with a history of mental illness would automatically lead to warrentless searches, but without it people like that VT monster can just lie on the form and buy all the guns they want.

It is the same slippery slope. Once we give up one restaint on gov't we give them all up.

[August]

It is the same slippery slope. Once we give up one restaint on gov't we give them all up.

There is no restraint in this case as the states already keep such records on their own. Take criminal records for instance. Without a national data base a person can have a criminal record long as your arm in one state but come out squeekly clean on a backround check done in another.

As long as we resist any and all attempts to consolidate these records on a national level, guns purchased from legal sources are going to keep getting into the wrong hands which will keep giving ammunition (pun intended) to those who would take RKBA away from all of us.

[waste gate]

It is the same slippery slope. Once we give up one restaint on gov't we give them all up.

There is no restraint in this case as the states already keep such records on their own. Take criminal records for instance. Without a national data base a person can have a criminal record long as your arm in one state but come out squeekly clean on a backround check done in another.

As long as we resist any and all attempts to consolidate these records on a national level, guns purchased from legal sources are going to keep getting into the wrong hands which will keep giving ammunition (pun intended) to those who would take RKBA away from all of us.

I guess that is where we differ. I believe in all restraints on gov't. My rights are more important to me than removing rights from others. I have made my choice.

[August]

I guess that is where we differ. I believe in all restraints on gov't. My rights are more important to me than removing rights from others. I have made my choice.

I'm not talking about removing rights from others. Already you don't have the right to purchase firearms if you are a convicted felon or have a history of mental illness. All i'm talking about is closing the loophole that allows these people to get away with buying them from legal sources.

If you know a better way to do this i'm all ears.

[waste gate]

I believe in all restraints on gov't. My rights are more important to me than removing rights from others.

I will stand on this answer.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Solution: Trained Armed security.

[U-533]

I prefer free gun school, my GF is professor in a University, imagine a guy/girl with a F at an exam, he/her draw his/her handgun and shoot at her just because she give him/her a F.

Imagine if the Professor was armed also and knew that this nutjob may pull a gun on him/her... hell ... for that matter the professor didn't know him/her would pull a gun

The question would be ... If the Him/Her was to wonder weather or not the Professor was armed as well would the him/her who got an F ... pull a gun to begin with?

But that leads one back to the reason the him/her failed and thought him/her should pass no matter what...

If you deserve a F you should study harder.

OK...

If him/her was doing him/her and him/her was to start doing another him/her and the him/her got jealous and him/her pulled a gun on the other two him/her but the other him/her was packing also and pulled a gun and another him/her saw the him/her pull a gun then the him/her would shoot the him/her and the him/her would not need a him/her to shoot another him/her caise the him/her would think " hey ... that him/her may have a gun and I should not pull a gun on him/her I may die and not kill him/her for doing him/her in the first place...

whew!... umm.. throw an IT in there too...

[U-533]

Solution: Trained Armed security.

HMM:hmm:

A 'Trained Armed Security Person" in each room, This would solve the unemployment problem... but it would drive the cost of higher education up to where only the filthy nasty rich could afford it.

[Yahoshua]

The courts found Cho mentally ill.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0419071cho1.html


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0419071cho1.gif


As such he should've been put into the NICS database and rendered ineligible to purchase firearms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/21guns.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Case law regarding what constitutes mental illness and constitutes ineligibility for certain activities. While the interpretation of the law has changed between 1973 and 2004, the more recent interpretation should've barred Cho from having been released from court custody in the first place. The courts droped the ball on this one BIG time.

Here's the link and the relevant excerpt:

http://www.abanet.org/disability/publicati...r/caselaw.shtml (http://www.abanet.org/disability/publications/lawreporter/caselaw.shtml)

Seizure of Firearms; Outpatient Treatment

An Iowa federal court granted the U.S. government's motion to destroy the firearms and ammunition of a man with a long history of mental illness, finding as a matter of first impression that outpatient treatment constitutes "commitment to a mental institution" for purposes of the federal firearms statute, 18 U.S.C. §922(g)(4). United States v. B.H., 2006 WL 3531418.

B.H., a 63-year-old man with a long history of schizophrenia, collects firearms and ammunition. In September 2002, B.H. was involuntarily committed to outpatient treatment. State law enforcement officers executed a search warrant and seized 12 handguns, eight long guns, and thousands of rounds of ammunition from B.H.'s home. In April 2003, B.H. was discharged from outpatient commitment. In November, a state court ordered the law enforcement officials to return the firearms and ammunition to B.H. The federal government filed a complaint in district court, asking the court to declare the seized items contraband as to B.H., pursuant to §922(g)(4), which prohibits a person who was been "adjudicated as a mental defective" or "committed to a mental institution" from possessing firearms or ammunition.

The district court granted the government's motion. First, the court found that B.H. was not "adjudicated as a mental defective." The Eighth Circuit has defined a "mental defective" as "a person who has never possessed a normal degree of intellectual capacity." United States v. Hansel, 474 F.2d 1120 (8th Cir. 1973). The state referee's finding that B.H. was "seriously mentally impaired" at the time of the commitment hearing did not amount to a finding that B.H. "never possessed a normal degree of intellectual capacity." Rather, the treating physician's report indicated that B.H. had developed schizophrenia in the 1960s and has intermittently battled the condition since that time.

The government urged the court to adopt a broader definition of "mental defective," relying on a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) regulation that defines "adjudicated as a mental defective" as "a determination by a court that a person, as a result of a mental illness, condition or disease (1) is a danger to himself or others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs." 27 C.F.R. §478.11. A Michigan federal court had declined to follow Hansel and, instead, adopted the ATF's regulation. United States v. Vertz, 102 F. Supp. 2d 787 (W.D. Mich. 2000), aff'd on other grounds, 40 Fed. Appx. 69 (6th Cir. 2002), 26 MPDLR 795. Unlike the district court in Vertz, the court here is bound to follow Hansel, so long as it is not inconsistent with U.S. Supreme Court precedent. The court recognized some tension between Hansel and the Supreme Court's holding in Dickerson v. New Banner Inst., Inc., 460 U.S. 103 (1983), but did not find the two cases inconsistent. In Dickerson, the Court stated that 18 U.S.C. §921 et seq. has a "broad prophylactic purpose." The court here noted that the Court's reference was a general remark about the statute, and that the Court did not define "mental defective."

Second, the court ruled that outpatient treatment may constitute "commitment to a mental institution" for purposes of the federal firearms statute. Turning to the plain meaning of the statutory language, the court noted that the statute only requires commitment to, not in, a mental institution. 18 U.S.C. §922(g)(4). Under Iowa law, a formal order of commitment is a prerequisite to outpatient treatment, outpatient treatment continues only while the patient is under such an order, and the treatment does not end absent a court order terminating the commitment. See Iowa Code §229.13.



Just as a disclaimer, I didn't find any of this information myself. And I'm very grateful to my friends who know of such resources and how to use them.


As a final note: There's nothing wrong with firearms laws as they are, but there is something wrong about how this case was handled. That mishandling resulted in a series of mistakes that allowed this to come about.

[U-533]

probaly cause theres an A in the race box and not a W


I have noticed in the last 5 years here in the great city that once was where I live

if you want something done do not put the letter W in the race box

:rotfl:
I usually put G.E.* in my race box and I get my permits done tootsweet**

my wife still holds to the W and it takes her weeks or months to get premits through

try it next time use another letter or combination of letters***

*Galactic Emperor
** with in an hour
***don't use G.E. thats mine

[P_Funk]

probaly cause theres an A in the race box and not a W You are obcessed with race. You bring it up at every opportunity. If there is a prejudice at work its most likely yours.

[U-533]

probaly cause theres an A in the race box and not a W You are obcessed with race. You bring it up at every opportunity. If there is a prejudice at work its most likely yours.

no no no silly it has to do with

George W. Bush

see the W in there

when these city emplyees see the letter W they immedatly think your going to make them work for a living

just because it falls into the RACE BOX dosn't mean I have a problem with race

[SUBMAN1]

If the courts found him mentally ill, then someone is in deap doo doo for selling him a weapon! Wait till this story comes out!

-S

[Yahoshua]

From what I understand, the responsibility now falls to the courts fro not filing a report with the NICS system to enter Chos' name into the database.

So when the dealer in Roanoke called up NICS while doing a background check on Cho, he came clean. So the courts really dropped the ball on this one, more than likely it'll either come down to the judge or some anonymous court clerk whom will get the blame for it.