View Full Version : Cut through the BS
waste gate
04-18-07, 04:10 PM
Only one person is resposible for his actions. Stop trying to blame it on his past or the games he was playing. Cho Seung-Hui is the only one to blame and nothing anyone could have done would have stopped him.
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity.
This was a tragedy. Pray that you or anyone you know is never placed in the position of the vitctims families.
SUBMAN1
04-18-07, 04:27 PM
Anything other than what is posted above just encourages more of the same - it is what these whackos crave.
Tchocky
04-18-07, 04:41 PM
Only one person is resposible for his actions. Stop trying to blame it on his past or the games he was playing. Cho Seung-Hui is the only one to blame and nothing anyone could have done would have stopped him. Yes, he's solely responsible. It can't be seen any other way.
As regards stopping him, there's no way you can know that.
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity. Yeah, whatever we do, let's not learn from it. Let's not examine how this came about, and how we can help put an end to thin kind of thing.
waste gate
04-18-07, 05:03 PM
Only one person is resposible for his actions. Stop trying to blame it on his past or the games he was playing. Cho Seung-Hui is the only one to blame and nothing anyone could have done would have stopped him. Yes, he's solely responsible. It can't be seen any other way.
As regards stopping him, there's no way you can know that.
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity. Yeah, whatever we do, let's not learn from it. Let's not examine how this came about, and how we can help put an end to thin kind of thing.
The only means of learning about Cho Seung-Hui took himself out. Everything you could have learned conclusively died with him. Everything else is conjecture and best guesses. Neither are going to stop insanity. Sane people can never know what goes on the the head of an insane individual even if he had survived.
An entire army of psychologists (if that was legitimate science)would have many different opinions.
Even if we knew everything there is to knw about Cho the next insane individual would be different and just as insane.
what about the Staff of the school
they knew he was whacked out
so did the police
so did his parents
political correctness ...anyone?
waste gate
04-18-07, 06:52 PM
what about the Staff of the school
they knew he was whacked out
so did the police
so did his parents
political correctness ...anyone?
That is a slippery slope U-533. It would require everyone, I mean everyone, to be placed under the supervision of a 'health care professional'.
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity. Thats an awfully simplistic and black and white interpretation of human psychology.
If you can't predict insanity or understand its roots then I suppose we should just scrap every FBI team thats pursuing a serial killer and tracking him down through analysing his patterns and reading through his childhood.
I suppose that if "insanity", as you plainly put it, is so beyond human conprehention then we should just clean up rape victims, send them home, not bother with counseling and say "yea she'll be alright in 10 years".
Insanity isn't some evil alternate state of mind. Its often a cumulative effect of someone's life. Its no coincidence that many Pedophiles were molested themselves, and that lots of people who are raped end up having rape fetishes.
Traumatic experiences, particularly at key stages of someone's life, have huge effects on their psychological stability later on. And even if it isn't likely that we can figure out why he did it, whats the harm in trying?
As a christian aren't you supposed to find some meaning in everything that happened? If god means for everything to happen for some purpose why then should we be so afraid to search for an answer so that maybe we can learn from it?
Nobody is trying to give him an excuse for behaving how he did. But to understand why some people are compelled or rationalise such behavior can help us either prevent it from happening again, or sight it before it is too late.
waste gate
04-18-07, 07:21 PM
][quote=waste gate]Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity. Thats an awfully simplistic and black and white interpretation of human psychology.
The lack of black and white is what caused the mess.
If you can't predict insanity or understand its roots then I suppose we should just scrap every FBI team thats pursuing a serial killer and tracking him down through analysing his patterns and reading through his childhood.
Tell me one serial killer has been apprehended because of a psychological profile.
I suppose that if "insanity", as you plainly put it, is so beyond human conprehention then we should just clean up rape victims, send them home, not bother with counseling and say "yea she'll be alright in 10 years".
The victim isn't insane. If she needs to talk to someone that is her choice.
Its no coincidence that many Pedophiles were molested themselves, and that lots of people who are raped end up having rape fetishes.
Now you're believing what a pedophile tells you?
Traumatic experiences, particularly at key stages of someone's life, have huge effects on their psychological stability later on. And even if it isn't likely that we can figure out why he did it, whats the harm in trying?
Because many will use sickness as an excuse for criminal or depraved moral behavior.
As a christian aren't you supposed to find some meaning in everything that happened? If god means for everything to happen for some purpose why then should we be so afraid to search for an answer so that maybe we can learn from it?
No. I will not judge God's reasons.
Nobody is trying to give him an excuse for behaving how he did. But to understand why some people are compelled or rationalise such behavior can help us either prevent it from happening again, or sight it before it is too late.
????????????
The lack of black and white is what caused the mess. Got a basis for that statement?
If you can't predict insanity or understand its roots then I suppose we should just scrap every FBI team thats pursuing a serial killer and tracking him down through analysing his patterns and reading through his childhood.
Tell me one serial killer has been apprehended because of a psychological profile. Profiling is part of tracking them. Its a process that involves all aspects of police work. I'd be stupid to say it was all the profiler in any case.
The victim isn't insane. If she needs to talk to someone that is her choice. The point is that the effects of an experience have long reaching consequences if not dealt with. To deny any source for insanity is to deny all levels of human psychology.
Now you're believing what a pedophile tells you? Now you're questioning an observed fact? Do a little research and you'll find that alot of sexual deviance has its roots in early childhod abuse.
Traumatic experiences, particularly at key stages of someone's life, have huge effects on their psychological stability later on. And even if it isn't likely that we can figure out why he did it, whats the harm in trying?
Because many will use sickness as an excuse for criminal or depraved moral behavior. Well then I suppose we shouldn't practise religion because that gets used to justify all kinds of depravity and immoral behavior as well.
Personally I'm with waste gate on this one entirely.
Ultimately people prefer to work by categorizations. Categorizations lead to stories. It's easy to pull a story, stick it into a category, and forget it.
When something doesn't make sense, it's easy to start panicking and looking for a category to jam it to.
Granted, we can all agree that there's lots that could be learned about the psychology of a killer here, but I don't think beyond this one killer here it's possible to draw anything else out.
And yea, let's not start going into a slippery slope. Nor start suspecting anyone with slightly deviant writing or behaviour. For every disturbing writer that might actually think of killing people, there's 1000 perfectly tame ones that deserve not to be classed into the killer or potential killer category.
This is called paranoia and it's a risk to the individuality that a democratic society is supposed to value so much.
Tchocky
04-19-07, 01:50 AM
Personally I'm with waste gate on this one entirely.
Ultimately people prefer to work by categorizations. Categorizations lead to stories. It's easy to pull a story, stick it into a category, and forget it.
When something doesn't make sense, it's easy to start panicking and looking for a category to jam it to.
Granted, we can all agree that there's lots that could be learned about the psychology of a killer here, but I don't think beyond this one killer here it's possible to draw anything else out.
And yea, let's not start going into a slippery slope. Nor start suspecting anyone with slightly deviant writing or behaviour. For every disturbing writer that might actually think of killing people, there's 1000 perfectly tame ones that deserve not to be classed into the killer or potential killer category.
This is called paranoia and it's a risk to the individuality that a democratic society is supposed to value so much.
When I said we should learn from it, I meant that in reflection of the failure of the mental health services in this case.
I agree on the signs, especially the writing. I've seen much worse, and written some....close.
When I said we should learn from it, I meant that in reflection of the failure of the mental health services in this case.
I agree on the signs, especially the writing. I've seen much worse, and written some....close. Of course. Its a symptom of our culture, be it a contemporary one or a fact about humanity in general, that people like to classify everything as an extreme.
I don't think that its as simple as either we delve into why he did it and fundamentally alter society based on the results OR we ignore him and do nothing to address our basic failures in preventing it from happening.
After a disaster the question "why" isn't a superfluous one. But as in anything to do with our lives, moderation is required. There is a slippery slope, indeed. After Columbine I remember hearing that they expelled or tried to expel a pre-schooler that pointed a fish stick at someone and said "Bang".
But as the saying goes "Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me". McCarthy was a true danger to Democratic society. But I wouldn't hesitate to say that the Soviet Union was a threat.
The point is that he was crazy, crazy for a good long time, known to the police, the courts, the school, the students, the teachers, the admin, and the mental institution. But somehow with all the warnings of a dangerously unstable mind nothing was done to prevent another all too similar disaster.
If this long since Columbine, and with this many successful copies of it, don't you think that we need to evaluate why we didn't do what seems all too obvious and prudent now?
They say hindsight is 20/20. Well isn't that the point?
micky1up
04-19-07, 03:55 AM
well from my perspective 100% of the USA is whacked out what do you do arrest everyone:damn:
well from my perspective 100% of the USA is whacked out what do you do arrest everyone:damn:
From My perspective all of the USA is under arrest now...
We are being told what to think how to think when think and WHO to think...
If I'm told I can not make up my own mind that my government will take care of me... Then I'm punished if I disobey
Am I not under arrest?
Am I whacked out because I use Gods gift of a brain and common sense?
hmm... wait on second thought ...
Yes all of us in the USA are whacked out ... so don't come here you aliens...it is contagious...stay in yooour own country and do a better job there:88) :88) :88) :88) :doh: :doh: :88)
:roll:
well from my perspective 100% of the USA is whacked out what do you do arrest everyone:damn: 100% of the US isn't whacked out. More like a healthy 25ish. Then theres the 7% or so that are intelligent and thoughtful. Then theres the useless flock of sheep that makes up around 60 percent.
When they say nothing ever changes they mean that the sheep just stare at the shotgun used to slaughter them with googley eyes and turn away to eat more grass.
I don't think that this is particularly unique to the US. I just think that the US has a more apathetic populous.
Canada I feel is much less at risk of being ruined through social apathy to executive abuse but still less than 30% of the population votes.
The US is just a little quirky I think. I'm glad I'm a Canadian but in all honestly if I were an Alien coming to earth to blend into a nation because I'm hiding here or something, I don't think I'd pick Canada, or the US.
I think Sweden. :hmm:
if I were an Alien coming to earth to blend into a nation because I'm hiding here or something, I don't think I'd pick Canada, or the US.
I think Sweden. :hmm:
All space aliens are welcome! :p
Cheers Porphy
The Avon Lady
04-19-07, 07:10 AM
if I were an Alien coming to earth to blend into a nation because I'm hiding here or something, I don't think I'd pick Canada, or the US.
I think Sweden. :hmm:
A splendid time is guaranteed for all (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016112.php)!
A splendid time is guaranteed for all (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016112.php)!
Do you get a sick satisfaction from defacating on people's fantasies?;)
Native Swedes have thus been reduced to just another ethnic group in Sweden, with no more claim to the country than the Kurds or the Somalis who arrived there last Thursday. The political authorities of the country have erased their own people's history and culture.
Thats the problem I see in Canada too. So many asian and east indian immigrants just don't learn english and only associate with their own race.
Its not multiculturalism. Its more like a sectarian culture. It ain't multicultural if the cultures are un-integrated. What ever happened to those sweet enthusiastic immigrants that wanted to integrate into the new land's culture? The ones that would learn the new way but would still presereve their old ways too?
All I know is I'm tired of walking around my own city, named for a freaking Scotsman, and having asian people look at me like a negro on park avenue.:roll:
The Avon Lady
04-19-07, 08:54 AM
Native Swedes have thus been reduced to just another ethnic group in Sweden, with no more claim to the country than the Kurds or the Somalis who arrived there last Thursday. The political authorities of the country have erased their own people's history and culture.
Thats the problem I see in Canada too. So many asian and east indian immigrants just don't learn english and only associate with their own race.
Its not multiculturalism. Its more like a sectarian culture. It ain't multicultural if the cultures are un-integrated. What ever happened to those sweet enthusiastic immigrants that wanted to integrate into the new land's culture? The ones that would learn the new way but would still presereve their old ways too?
Here I disagree with you. Experience in North America shows that over the last century, immigrants who came from far and wide, in spite of their retaining their own ethnicity and culture, became loyal citizens of their respective new land, be it the US or Canada. It is only natural for a new immigrant to cling to their culture of origin. What's important is what they taught their children and how those children grow up.
Having grown up in the US and visited Canada numerous times, I never saw 2nd generation citizens as any different. My suggestion to you is to be patient. Sometimes it takes a decade or 2 to see the possitive results.
That's not to say that all's rosey with all immigrants. There are definite exceptions but I don't think your 2 examples, Asians and Indians, are generally among them.
All I know is I'm tired of walking around my own city, named for a freaking Scotsman, and having asian people look at me like a negro on park avenue.:roll:
What kind of an ugly thing is that to say? :nope:
I suggest you stroll down Park Avenue. Might surprise you.
Its not multiculturalism. Its more like a sectarian culture. It ain't multicultural if the cultures are un-integrated. What ever happened to those sweet enthusiastic immigrants that wanted to integrate into the new land's culture? The ones that would learn the new way but would still presereve their old ways too?
There are two different problems in fact: 1) Wether the inmigrants want to join the culture of the host society, and 2) Wether there are too many inmigrants and the host society can't absob them without loosing its own identity.
I would say that nowadays we have more the second problem than the first one, though the fact that "minorities" are in fact very high forms a tendency to severe relations with the host society. If European governments don't stop inmigration soon, we will have a big problem. We can't absorb the current inmigration ratio. A certain amount is possible and even desirable, but a too high rate triggers many dangers for the host society.
Anyway, I have always thought myself that the "integration" is just a nonsense concept. Either inmigrants join the new culture and forget theirs, or they form ghettos and keep their culture without integration. The ideal dream of inmigrants keeping some folklore but in fact acting dailiy as normal citizens of the host society is just....a dream. I have never seen that anywhere.:hmm: In small numbers, inmigrants tend to lose their identity to the host society, in large numbers they collapse and overrule the host society, and in balanced ones, a new culture appears, as a mix of the previous ones. Such happened here in Spain for example, where our history can't be understood without the different cultures that interacted to create ours. But none of those ancient cultures -roman, phoenician, islamic- is exactly ours today...something different came out of the mix. As with the USA, and so many other states formed by inmigration from different origins.
TteFAboB
04-19-07, 09:56 AM
Immigrants help when they come to build, not to destroy and pillage.
The shooter was completely insane. The links are out there on Google. On December 2005 a district judge ordered him to undergo mental evaluation for being mentally ill or seriously mentally ill and presenting imminent danger.
He was checked the following day. The medical report had two check boxes:
| | - Presents danger to himself.
| | - Presents danger to others.
Only the first one was checked. In the blame game, the doctor who diagnosed Cho has some explaining to do. Which part you didn't understand? Why did you failed to identify him as a threat to others so terribly? Did you do your homework? Was your diagnostic properly performed? If so do we run the risk of misdiagnosing other patients? Is there such a massive hole in these tests? Is there a reason not to simply throw a coin next time and decided based on head or tails?
Lastly the Staff sure deserves to get part of the attention. The security aspect is already being bombarded, but the PC aspect needs to be explored. I have read on the net that a student believed the killer didn't spoke with anybody because his English must've been poor as he was an immigrant, and that he was a loner for the same reason.
Asians in VA Tech claim know each other, hang together and talk to each other, they don't isolate. Next, as this student learned to his surprise, the maniac was studying English, his English was fine. He didn't spoke with anybody not because he was some traumatized frightened immigrant but because he was a sociopath. Were the staff and the student body condescending? Were they sitting so high on their high horse that they couldn't see this wasn't an immigrant like every other one? Did PC demand him to be tolerated, respected, given another chance, etc.? He should've been diagnosed and locked up in a mental hospital, as requested by the judge, back in December 2005.
Kapitan_Phillips
04-19-07, 10:24 AM
An entire army of psychologists (if that was legitimate science)
I take offense to that.
SUBMAN1
04-19-07, 10:26 AM
An entire army of psychologists (if that was legitimate science)
I take offense to that.
Are you joking?
Kapitan_Phillips
04-19-07, 10:30 AM
I study psychology, and want to be a counsellor. So no, I'm not joking.
GlobalExplorer
04-19-07, 01:13 PM
While I cannot remember the exact wording, I didn't found the things Cho said (in his video) so completely meaningless and confusing as everyone says. He said things like "you already had everything, but you're still not satisfied, and you still must cause more grief to the ones who can't stand up for themselves .. and for which I am going to stand up now .. etc"
There is a certain pattern with these guys. They feel superfluous, overlooked, singled out, no one cares for them. Girls laugh about them, they don't get admission to the fancy clubs, they are expelled from school, they don't find jobs, and so they begin to hate everyone who gets the things they feel they can never get themselves.
Of course not everyone goes insane like Cho but I am sure there much more guys who feel like him. Who feel like losers, and losers they are - but the problem is that nobody gives a **** about them, as long as they function somehow and don't go mad like Cho, Robert Steinhäuser or whoever we see in the news, when it's already too late.
I believe that if a man feels he has lost everything, sometimes his anger is the last thing that keeps him alive .. Taken from from "Taxi Driver":
"Loneliness has followed me my whole life. Everywhere."
"Here is a man who would not take it anymore"
"Listen you ****ers you screwheads, here's a man who would not take it anymore, a man who stood up against the scum, the ****s, the dogs, the filth, the ****. Here is someone who stood up."
Safe-Keeper
04-19-07, 03:19 PM
I repeatedly find the ignorance about psychiatry, to put it mildly, disturbing. Also saddening, as it's this ignorance that keeps so many who need help from seeking it.
Only one person is resposible for his actions. Stop trying to blame it on his past [...]Our experiences are what makes us who we are. Particularly traumatizing events are proven to have effects later in life. And some people truly cannot be blamed for what they do. These are facts, pal, like them or not.
Cho Seung-Hui is the only one to blame and nothing anyone could have done would have stopped him.Finding out why a person does something and exonerating him of blame are two different things.
Second off, how on Earth do you know that this was unavoidable? You say that you don't know what drove him in the first place, yet you claim to know enough about it to know it was irreversible?
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity.First of all, since 'mad', 'crazy' and 'insane' are outdated words laden with ignorance, stigma and generalization, I want you to tell me which mental illnesses and symptoms make up your definition of 'insanity'. Just for you to prove that you know what you're talking about. I ask because you appear to be frighteningly ignorant of psychology. As P_Funk said, "thats an awfully simplistic and black and white interpretation of human psychology". I don't blame you, as the field is about as big a taboo subject as sex was half a century ago, but ignorance on life-or-death issues is nevertheless never a very good condition to be in.
This was a tragedy. Pray that you or anyone you know is never placed in the position of the vitctims families.You do realize that when you make a post discouraging research and end it with an incentive for prayer, you're painting your religion in a bad light, right? I read your post as 'stop seeking answers and pray God will solve our problems for us'.
what about the Staff of the school
they knew he was whacked out
so did the police
so did his parents
political correctness ...anyone?Not at all.
It may seem this way to you, but just that you write violent plays and is an introverted loner does not mean you're going to shoot up a school. Are you going to put him in a psychiatric hospital just because he falls within a certain generalized group?
It's as ludicrous as me walking into a slum and rounding up all the lower-class black males for jail prematurely - just because lots of crimes are committed by lower-class black guys. Or hospitalizing every smoker because we all know they're a high-risk group when it comes to lung cancer.
Utter nonsense.
The lack of black and white is what caused the mess.Elaborate.
The victim isn't insane. If she needs to talk to someone that is her choice.Another dangerous misconception about psychiatry - that it's 'for the insane'. That it's somehow insulting to suggest someone needs psychiatric care. We live in 2007.
Psychiatry covers a wide range of issues, from depression to anorexia to PTSD to psychopathy to anxiety to grief to hundreds of other disorders and conditions. Generalizing mental illness is as childish as generalizing normal illness.
As an analogy, everyone know that a person with cancer suffers from very different symptoms than a person with migraine. We all know that people with asthma do not show the same symptoms as diabetics. And certainly very, very few are offended and go defensive when they're asked if they think they need to see a doctor.
I wish people were as enlightened about psychology. It would, quite litterally, save lots and lots of lives each year.
As for your rape victim case, rape is a very traumatizing, humiliating event. Of course traumatized individuals should seek help, just like people with diabetes should seek help. If anyone here is being too politically correct, it's you, who discourages giving rape victims aid because you think it may, of all things, offend them.
Now you're believing what a pedophile tells you?I see no reason why I should not.
I have read on the net that a student believed the killer didn't spoke with anybody because his English must've been poor as he was an immigrant, and that he was a loner for the same reason.I was an immigrant. I lived in the US from '01 to '04. Is my English poor?
Second off, he was deliberately introverted. On his first day of school, he put a question mark for his name when asked to fill in a class roster, then merely shrugged when asked if his name was '?'. I don't think it has anything to do with his alleged lack of English.
His English was quite fine. I've heard far worse.
An entire army of psychologists (if that was legitimate science)It is a legitimate science. It works by forming hypotheses, testing them, and creating theories from the results, just like other scientists. It is a trustable, life-saving science as much as the study of cancer is.
Of course. Its a symptom of our culture, be it a contemporary one or a fact about humanity in general, that people like to classify everything as an extreme.
[...]
The point is that he was crazy, crazy for a good long time, known to the police, the courts, the school, the students, the teachers, the admin, and the mental institution. But somehow with all the warnings of a dangerously unstable mind nothing was done to prevent another all too similar disaster.I don't get you. Are you saying that you dislike it when things are labelled as extremes, and yet you would treat this guy as dangerous? Wouldn't that be labelling his case as extreme?
Safe-Keeper
04-19-07, 03:35 PM
I can't edit my last post as the subsim forum is acting up... again.
Did PC demand him to be tolerated, respected, given another chance, etc.? He should've been diagnosed and locked up in a mental hospital, as requested by the judge, back in December 2005.Source?
Anything other than what is posted above just encourages more of the same - it is what these whackos crave.Give me a source proving that research on psychology causes school shootings. I'd really like to see one.
TteFAboB
04-19-07, 04:16 PM
I have read on the net that a student believed the killer didn't spoke with anybody because his English must've been poor as he was an immigrant, and that he was a loner for the same reason.
I was an immigrant. I lived in the US from '01 to '04. Is my English poor?
Second off, he was deliberately introverted. On his first day of school, he put a question mark for his name when asked to fill in a class roster, then merely shrugged when asked if his name was '?'. I don't think it has anything to do with his alleged lack of English.
His English was quite fine. I've heard far worse.
Please don't make me quote myself.
Source?
The news story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070418/ts_alt_afp/uscrimeshooting_070418200812
The document itself: http://news.lp.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/vatech/seunghui2005ord.html
Drinks on me if you can transcript the symptons on page 3 from that horrible Lazyspeak back to English. The two checkmarks I mention (danger to himself or danger to others) is on page 5.
Safe-Keeper
04-19-07, 05:32 PM
Never mind the lazyspeak, look at that so-called handwriting.
I stand corrected. And yes, it's an interesting report. By 2005, he'd never been subjected to psychiatric treatment before, nor had he attempted suicide. But he was still deemed to be a danger to himself or others (which evidently was the case, at least when the shooting happened), and should be given psychiatric care. He was given Outpatient treatment, which means he would live at home but report to treatment regularly, probably daily, for a set period of time. This is administered when a person needs care, but is not considered to be in need of 24-hours-a-day supervivsion. Either you will stay at the clinic for the whole day and then head home to sleep, or you'll go to the facility only for a few hours in the afternoon. I don't know which of these Cho was given.
It's quite possible that he did not have homicidal thoughts by then, even though he definetely was not mentally healthy either. It's quite likely that all of the hospital staff members did their job and still found no signs of homicidal thoughts. Symptoms and homicidal/suicidal thoughts can change really fast, and this was all the way back in 2005. Plenty of time for him to develop thoughts he did not possess back in the hospital.
Psychiatry is not as exact a medical science as other fields. It's quite easy, as far as I understand, to do a test for allergy. It's regrettably not as easy as that to find out if a person is suicidal or homicidal. Hence, it's quite possible for a patient to hide his true feelings while in psychiatric care and then be dismissed and act upon them.
Camaero
04-19-07, 09:35 PM
Only one person is resposible for his actions. Stop trying to blame it on his past or the games he was playing. Cho Seung-Hui is the only one to blame and nothing anyone could have done would have stopped him.
Stop trying to figure it out because no one can explain insanity.
This was a tragedy. Pray that you or anyone you know is never placed in the position of the vitctims families.
:rock:
No longer is anyone responsible for their own actions. It is such a shame.:nope:
Here I disagree with you. Experience in North America shows that over the last century, immigrants who came from far and wide, in spite of their retaining their own ethnicity and culture, became loyal citizens of their respective new land, be it the US or Canada. It is only natural for a new immigrant to cling to their culture of origin. What's important is what they taught their children and how those children grow up.
Having grown up in the US and visited Canada numerous times, I never saw 2nd generation citizens as any different. My suggestion to you is to be patient. Sometimes it takes a decade or 2 to see the possitive results. You obviously don't live in my city. In particular my suburb, Richmond. The asian population is massive and my only issue there is that many of these middle class well off families intentionally teach their children their native tongue and don't even introduce them to English until they go to public school. A native Canadian living nowhere near Quebec shouldn't have issues speaking English. The other problem is that I get eyed funny by alot of asian people in the more "asian" areas. In particular "Yaohan Centre" is a mall with literally no english signage and I got stared at when I went in there once. There was a seperate mall where I was denied service at a kiosk and ignored as 3 asian fellows behind me were helped. I don't think I'm imagining it. The problem is that there is also no incentive anymore because we apparently place no importane on English class. Any boob can pass it now.
That's not to say that all's rosey with all immigrants. There are definite exceptions but I don't think your 2 examples, Asians and Indians, are generally among them. McMath Secondary is called "the brown school" because North of 4 road the population is almost entirely east indian, and it isn't a shanty town up there. There are asian gangs and punjabi gangs. Hell in grade 10 I almost got beat up by an asian guy that could barely speak english because "you touched me". He rounded up his buddies and cornered me.
All I know is I'm tired of walking around my own city, named for a freaking Scotsman, and having asian people look at me like a negro on park avenue.:roll: What kind of an ugly thing is that to say? :nope:
I suggest you stroll down Park Avenue. Might surprise you. Its an allusion to a common reality in America, be it contemporaneous or former. In Vancouver the metaphor would involve Aboriginals in Kerrisdale. There is alot of transparent rascism in my city but nobody wants to deal with it since the immigrants here are all moneyed. But thats a seperate Canadian issue.
I'm not exaggerating feeling like an alien in a place where I grew up.
As one person said in a class discussion in a college course that I took:
"I'm just more comfortable around people like me."
Ya know P_Funk, I'm originally from Vancouver (folks moved back in 2004 now after moving around all over the country and me.... well not lived there since the early 90s) but what you write is disturbing to me. I always put forth our immigrants as a point of pride here. I am wondering if it can continue to be so.
Ya know P_Funk, I'm originally from Vancouver (folks moved back in 2004 now after moving around all over the country and me.... well not lived there since the early 90s) but what you write is disturbing to me. I always put forth our immigrants as a point of pride here. I am wondering if it can continue to be so.
I can't speak as an expert on Vancouver proper. I have lived however in Richmond for most of my life. The changes have been gradual but deep. I don't mean to exaggerate.
There are still plenty of good spirited immigrants. In fact my best friend is Japanese and the last girl I snogged was too.:p I only notice a rising tide of prejudice. There is much to how and why this might be but its a very deep topic.
Ya know P_Funk, I'm originally from Vancouver (folks moved back in 2004 now after moving around all over the country and me.... well not lived there since the early 90s) but what you write is disturbing to me. I always put forth our immigrants as a point of pride here. I am wondering if it can continue to be so.
I can't speak as an expert on Vancouver proper. I have lived however in Richmond for most of my life. The changes have been gradual but deep. I don't mean to exaggerate.
There are still plenty of good spirited immigrants. In fact my best friend is Japanese and the last girl I snogged was too.:p I only notice a rising tide of prejudice. There is much to how and why this might be but its a very deep topic.
snogged... :hmm: snogged?... snogged? :hmm:
It sounds selfish and dominating ... but there again I have no idea what snogged is
so if you snogged some one of another sex and race that indicates you are ok with them?
snogged?... ummm... I hope your not doing that in the "Fountain of Political Correctness"
Ostfriese
04-21-07, 09:49 AM
snogged... :hmm: snogged?... snogged? :hmm:
It sounds selfish and dominating ... but there again I have no idea what snogged is
so if you snogged some one of another sex and race that indicates you are ok with them?
You can snog people of the same sex and race, if you prefer it that way. :rotfl::D
Heck, I know that word, even though English is not my native language. :p
(to snog = to kiss)
Yes, snog is a cute way of saying we re-enacted Passaendale in each other's mouths.:D
Too bad she had abandonment issues.:roll:
Her emotional state: http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/peepwallsmilie.gif
Whoa. Way off topic.:p
oh ok...
then I shall go 'snog' my wife...
I wonder if she'll slap me when I tell her what I just did to her?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rock: :yep: :lol:
oh ok...
then I shall go 'snog' my wife...
I wonder if she'll slap me when I tell her what I just did to her?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rock: :yep: :lol:
You must be either married to a corpse or a sh1te kisser if you have to tell her what you just did.:rotfl::rotfl:
(Hey we're sorta half getting along. Woot.)
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.