OT Debate: If you were karl Donitz ....

[sandbag69]

If you were Karl Donitz how would you have won the Battle of the Atlantic and thus defeated Britain.

Here's how I would have done it.

1. Concentrate on cutting off the British Supply lines by sending U-boats to only the Western Appraoches of Britain. Forget the Med, Indian Ocean, and even the US Atlantic Coast they were side shows and not the main theatre. The main aim of a u-boat is to place an enemy nation under blockade not to just sink tonnage.
This is exactly how the British won WW1. They blockaded Germany until into 1919 and starved them into submission.

2. Tankers were to be number 1 Priority targets. Britian produced no oil in 1939 - 45 and was totally reliant on Tankers bringing it in.

3. Demand Kriegsmarine sorties and feint attacks into the Atlantic. Thus pulling many British Destroyers and search aircraft away from ASW duty.

4. Demand Luftwaffe concentrate on bombing British Ports and Docks rather than City bombing. British Dockers were notorous for taking weeks to unload ships even when the country had introduced rationing. They even went on strike (Damn Commies I bet) many times. A few well placed bombs and they wouldn't have shown up for work at all.

5. Demand Luftwaffe air sorties over convoy routes. Forgot the Condors attacking Convoys they were mostly useless at it.

6. Send special raiding U-boats to attack coastal Oil refineries in Curacoa and then US Coast when the US entered the war. Shell those Oil tanks and blow see em burn.

7. Attack Destroyers and Escorts when possible. Dont just assume that they are the hound and the u-boats are the fox.

8. The most brutal of all would be to sink the Rescue ships in convoys when possible. I know it would be horrendous but to break morale of the merchant seaman it is a must. They would be terrified to come out of port. I would have been hung at Nurnberg for this.

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it.

[Deathfrombelow23]

I like many of your viewpoints. I think the better question is... what would you do if you were Hitler? Doenitz wanted 300 U-boats. He said if he had 300 submarines he could defeat England. Hitler got him his 300... but not until the "happy times" were well over. If Germany could have some how had 300 or more submarines available at the outset of the war.... if the Kriegsmarine could have some how developed the type XXI and XXIII a little sooner... perhaps if Hitler hadn't started the war in 1939, but instead waited until 1942, 44 or 46 when Germany's Z-plan would've been further along and the Kriegsmarine could've benefitted from the addition of the Graf Zepplin class CV's and Hindenburg BB's... they may have won. It's tough to say... but Germany DEFINITELY COULD'VE won the Battle of the Atlantic, in my opinion. This, ofcourse, depends on things being done differently, which they weren't. And like my esteemed historian colleague above said, hindsight is always 20/20.

[robbo180265]

I've always thought that attacking Russia was the turning point in the war. From then onwards Hitler was fighting too many fronts IMO.

[sandbag69]

I like many of your viewpoints. I think the better question is... what would you do if you were Hitler? Doenitz wanted 300 U-boats. He said if he had 300 submarines he could defeat England. Hitler got him his 300... but not until the "happy times" were well over. If Germany could have some how had 300 or more submarines available at the outset of the war.... if the Kriegsmarine could have some how developed the type XXI and XXIII a little sooner... perhaps if Hitler hadn't started the war in 1939, but instead waited until 1942, 44 or 46 when Germany's Z-plan would've been further along and the Kriegsmarine could've benefitted from the addition of the Graf Zepplin class CV's and Hindenburg BB's... they may have won. It's tough to say... but Germany DEFINITELY COULD'VE won the Battle of the Atlantic, in my opinion. This, ofcourse, depends on things being done differently, which they weren't. And like my esteemed historian colleague above said, hindsight is always 20/20.

I like your reply. Hitler could not have waited longer to go to war.
The whole reason Hitler and the Nazi's invaded Poland etc in 1939 was they were on a tight schedule. They owed many Eastern European nations huge amounts of money and couldn't pay it back. Do you think Germany's recovery in 1933 was down to superior German economics?
The most pressing reason for early war was the Ruskies were mobilising for a Bolshevik/Nazi showdown and Hitler knew it. Russians had began a five year plan that was no less than mobilization of their war indistries.
As for the so called Z-Plan. No way would it ever have started. Britain and France would have attacked when the 3rd Battleship went down the slipway. The British were slow to produce a pwerful army but threaten its Naval supremacy and you woudl have had a war on your hands.

[danurve]

Well, first things first. Donitz should have had Goering assasinated.

[Umfuld]

I'd like to think I would have gone to England and surrendered myself.

But in the spirit of the question, I would have tried to do what the Americans did with their tanks. Not try to make the biggest and baddest sub, but rather the one that could be mass produced the easiest.

And concentrated research to upgrading those sub's performance rather toward new subs.

[Deathfrombelow23]

It's difficult to say. I've always been a fan of the U-boats... and many U-boatmen weren't Nazis. Unfortunately, with the "regular" Germans came the Nazis... so as a submarine fan, I've always pulled for the Kriegsmarine and hoped it may have done better... but I certainly wouldn't like to see a world run by the Nazis... so I am glad history worked out the way it did.
I was under the impression that Plan-Z was already started in the late 1930's when Bismarck and Tirpitz were laid down? Graf Zepplin was laid down, but never really finished. Those ships were supposed to be a part of it, right?
Anyway, yes... I agree... find the "choke points" and stack up your U-boats there. That's a great tactic... as far as your so called "brutality" of attacking rescue ships and other types of ships... sink 'em all! If the world has been notified of a submarine blockade and neutral ships are still sailing in THAT zone, they do so at their own peril. You HAVE TO be aggressive and go right for your enemy's jugular, so to speak, in order to win the war... otherwise, you're just wasting your time... again... this is just my opinion.
In regards to the Med... Hitler had pressure from Mussolini to send subs to the Med to help out. Otherwise, he probably would'nt have done it. In my opinion, Germany did well with the VII and IX... the perfect mix of size and range... depending who you want to attack. With slightly stronger pressure hulls, snorkels and perhaps some other goodies earlier in the war, the VII and IX U-boats may well have won the day and not needed the "Electro boats." Nice chatting with you folks, but I'm off to bed. Hopefully by tomorrow evening, some other people will have weighed in w/ their opinions... quite an interesting question posed here!

[danurve]

I'd like to think I would have gone to England and surrendered myself.

But in the spirit of the question, I would have tried to do what the Americans did with their tanks. Not try to make the biggest and baddest sub, but rather the one that could be mass produced the easiest.

And concentrated research to upgrading those sub's performance rather toward new subs.

I am confused. I think the mass production idea conflicts with the sub performance idea.
I don't want to slam the American tanks with respect to the job they did but to explain but in this case I have to. The Sherman tanks were quite inferior to the panzer tanks. The tiger tanks could kick a Sherman @ss easy as well. So Im just thinking mass producing a sub in the quality of the Sherman would have backfired - unless German war production had the raw materials to do such a thing. And even if they did it would have gone to the Eastern front most likely not to the Kreigsmarine.
Now, just for a moment what I wonder would have been the turn of events IF - the production system they used for the electroboats was put into use 2 years prior. Even if the raw materials, technology do do this was available it probably means the type IX sonar magnet would have been shelved.
HA! try to sell that one :arrgh!:

[emtmedic005]

Hmm interesting. First thing i would have done would be to concentrate attacks on convoys heading to england.
Second thing would to bomb British ports.
Third thing would be to build/ collect all landing crafts for the invasion of England.
4th thing would be to establish German forward supply bases on the Azores and Ally with South American Countries, like they tried to do in WW1

[Bindolaf]

All interesting points (from everyone), but we're only looking at one side.

1. Concentrate on cutting off the British Supply lines by sending U-boats to only the Western Appraoches of Britain.

Sounds good, but you do realize, you send your subs close to the enemy's shores in a predictable manner. This would allow Britain to recall all her destroyers and just patrol the shores up and down in ASW sorties. Convoys wouldn't even need escorts for the crossing - the "escorts" would be busy near the arrival area depth charging away. Denser sub concentrations would also mean they'd be easier to spot. A u-boot blockade during WWI is one thing, totally different in WWII :)

2. Tankers were to be number 1 Priority targets. Britian produced no oil in 1939 - 45 and was totally reliant on Tankers bringing it in.

I am sure all merchants were hit when spotted. How would you actively go after tankers?

3. Demand Kriegsmarine sorties and feint attacks into the Atlantic. Thus pulling many British Destroyers and search aircraft away from ASW duty.

Ha! Good luck! The Kriegsmarine lurked in port for fear of being sunk. Fear not of the men obviously, but their illustrious leader. Even after the Deutschland was renamed, big ships hardly ever left the harbors. Not to mention the KM would not be a match to the British navy eventually - better ships, but outnumbered, hopelessly so.

4. Demand Luftwaffe concentrate on bombing British Ports and Docks rather than City bombing.

Yea, good one. Talk to Herrn Mueller about that :rotfl:

5. Demand Luftwaffe air sorties over convoy routes. Forgot the Condors attacking Convoys they were mostly useless at it.

Again, the former WWI ace would object. Still, the Luftwaffe could not even escort bombers over the channel, how far would their bombers get over the Atlantic? Not to mention that sending fully loaded bombers out to look for convoys is a waste of fuel. Now, if you mean send out spotters first, then alert the bombers... perhaps. Still, Battle of Britain! The Luftwaffe kept air superiority and ground support roles, forsaking any others. Ok, night bomb runs perhaps.

6. Send special raiding U-boats to attack coastal Oil refineries in Curacoa and then US Coast when the US entered the war. Shell those Oil tanks and blow see em burn.

I thought all the u-booten should stay around Britain. If you mean 2, 3, 5 boats then ok. Still, they would have not made a dent really. Best to use them all in their conventional roles.

7. Attack Destroyers and Escorts when possible. Dont just assume that they are the hound and the u-boats are the fox.

A bold move - and one that would have resulted in disaster. How many DDs would a u-boot sink? A convoy is moving in, with 3 escorts. Sink all of them? How many torpedoes would that leave for the convoy? Sink one? What good is that? The other two will depth charge you for hours anyway.

8. The most brutal of all would be to sink the Rescue ships in convoys when possible. I know it would be horrendous but to break morale of the merchant seaman it is a must. They would be terrified to come out of port. I would have been hung at Nurnberg for this.

Yes, you would have been :p Still, terrified or not, the convoys would continue. Not to mention - how easy would it have been to consistently target and sink the rescue vessels? When you have one or two torpedo runs before having to make your escape, why waste one on the rescue ship? Sure, there would be some morale hit, but the juicy transports would just get away.


In the end I think Doenitz did what he could with the resources he had. It was a war of industries in the end and while german technical superiority and labor (not to mention some slave labor) took them far, it was not enough - especially after the U.S. entered the war. Yes, the Russian front was all an ill advised move, yes Mussolini was more detrimental than helpful. Yes Hitler made mistakes and thank god he did ;)

Good thread for some debate and thought!

[P_Funk]

Doenitz had an impossible job. He had to achieve total victory with paltry resources and no influence over the inner circle until after it was feasible to win the war.

Had he had the support of the Luftwaffe, the industrial support of Germany, had Hitler waited a bit longer to start the war, had they not invested in the irrelavent battleships and poured that into U-boats, and had Hitler not chickened out on Sealion and had avoided confrontation with Russia then... well then maybe we're talking about a different war.:hmm:

I don't think that Doenitz had the power, position, or luck to be able to influence the victory over England that Hitler wanted, not with the way things were in the Nazi regime.

Maybe, just maybe he could have swayed Hitler to his favour earlier in the 30s if he'd had the mind to do it, but then the Kriegsmarine had a plan that said that there wouldn't be war until 1945 and also Raeder was in charge so Doenitz didn't have the influence then either.

Me, I don't think I could have won as Doenitz. Not unless Hitler was my biggest fan and Goering chocked on a piece of Braughtwurst before Poland and died leaving a more adequate successor in charge that didn't want all the glory.

[Castout]

the topic brought me into this another what if

If you were Hitler's parent what would you do to change Hitler's character to avert world war II and the holocaust.:rotfl:

[HunterICX]

the topic brought me into this another what if

If you were Hitler's parent what would you do to change Hitler's character to avert world war II and the holocaust.:rotfl:

Used a Condom:doh:

[robbo180265]

the topic brought me into this another what if

If you were Hitler's parent what would you do to change Hitler's character to avert world war II and the holocaust.:rotfl:

Used a Condom:doh:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[P_Funk]

the topic brought me into this another what if

If you were Hitler's parent what would you do to change Hitler's character to avert world war II and the holocaust.:rotfl:
Move to New York, convert to Judaiism, start a jewelery shop, and name him Ira.

:hmm:

[AndyW]

Interesting points and Bindolaf beat me in commenting the inability of the Luftwaffe to raid convoys or docks on England's West Coast.

But a lot of that "What if instead" alternatives seem pretty expensive to me for the German side, so why bother and not following the big solution from the very beginning: Making the Luftwaffe and Navy strong and capable of conducting "Operation Sealion"?

That would have won the Battle of the Atlantic for sure.

Cheers,

[sandbag69]

Interesting points and Bindolaf beat me in commenting the inability of the Luftwaffe to raid convoys or docks on England's West Coast.

But a lot of that "What if instead" alternatives seem pretty expensive to me for the German side, so why bother and not following the big solution from the very beginning: Making the Luftwaffe and Navy strong and capable of conducting "Operation Sealion"?

That would have won the Battle of the Atlantic for sure.

Cheers,


Sealion was never going to be a reality. It was a hoax from start to finish.
Even Churchill knew it. Churchill's biggest dilema in 1940 was not how to stop invasion by the Germans but how to stop certain members of the British Ruling Classes from making a peace deal with Hitler.

As for the german Navy being strong enough to challenge the Royal Navy with the Z-Plan....forget it. It takes more than numbers of ships to build a fleet. Sailors , Engineers , officers etc are what is required and in large numbers. Royal Navy had a large merchant fleet to choose experienced officers and men from as well as the British coastal towns. Germany had a small Merchant fleet and isn't really a maritime nation.

[sandbag69]

7. Attack Destroyers and Escorts when possible. Dont just assume that they are the hound and the u-boats are the fox.

A bold move - and one that would have resulted in disaster. How many DDs would a u-boot sink? A convoy is moving in, with 3 escorts. Sink all of them? How many torpedoes would that leave for the convoy? Sink one? What good is that? The other two will depth charge you for hours anyway.


Well I would assume that with the concentration of U-boats there would be more than 1 U-boat engaing the convoy.

[_Seth_]

Hmmm...interesting, but difficult question, mates..:up:. Its hard for me to imagine how to do this, considering my present knowledge of the war in general.. It will be easy for me to state my hypotetical opinions about this, based on all the things i've learned trough the years, but putting myself into Dönitz' place... its to difficult for me..Of course, there is some things i would have changed due to what i know now, but i think Dönitz did whatever he could do, considering the limitations he had to operate under..
Good question, btw! Makes you think..:up:

[STEED]

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine. :know:

[Morts]

the topic brought me into this another what if

If you were Hitler's parent what would you do to change Hitler's character to avert world war II and the holocaust.:rotfl:
Move to New York, convert to Judaiism, start a jewelery shop, and name him Ira.

:hmm:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[sandbag69]

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine. :know:

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

By 1945 Britain would have had better Ships and sensors to fight not just the U-Boat but the Z-Plan ships also.
HMS Vanguard would have sunk the Bismark and Tirpitz no problem. KGV class ships were merely a stop gap until the Lion Class was built. Even then the KGV Class had better armour protection than Bismark and the 14inch guns were more accurate. Combine them with better British Radar and you have a winner.


As for the TypeXX1 U-Boat....was apparently not as good as has been made out. Its technology was never proven in battle and may have been a waste of resources. Looked good though.

[STEED]

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine. :know:

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

Far from it, don't forget the Kriegsmarine always came third for materials and they gave it there best shot.

[sandbag69]

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

[STEED]

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

That's because the Allied convoy system had not been perfected.

[sandbag69]

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

That's because the Allied convoy system had not been perfected.

Took until Mid 1943 to perfect ASW tactics. He had the time and resources to blockade Britain but failed miserably.

He only had to reduce Britain's imports to a ceratin level for a coupel of months and the game would have been up.

[Jimbuna]

The merchant navy never lost any more than 2-3% of there vessels....ships were taken 'under ownership' from other countries and new vessels built which almost always meant that losses were replaced quicker than they could be sunk :arrgh!:

[CaptainAsh]

I would have kept three styles of submarine warfare :

The wolves packs

First of all I would have set a complete different communication system. With only one way long distance communication, from BdU to u-boat. It was almost useless for BdU to get repport from the wolves but really dangerous for the wolves to give them.
I would have work on a special sub model to work as sub BdU on the wolves pack level. Each wolves would have been asked to make repport on a short communication radio to the special sub every 2 days and the special sub could have send grouped pack's repport to BdU. As this sub would have been nothing more than a mobile radio station, my priority would have been to make it as sneaky as possible... forget about offensive potential.

The suppressing warfare

I would have had a fleet of sub with minelaying capacity with the only mission to set mines on every port when it's possible (maybe 10 modified type VII).
I would have had a heavy mining campaing into the med, not to suppress the ennemy's port but to make any landing on europe by med hazardous even before the troops landing.

The long course warfare

Donitz dislike the type IX and the way it was use to hunt solitary ship. I would have use them on a specific hunt. Tanker on the other side of the ocean without any communication from the sub. No repport before the journey back.

[AndyW]

Sealion was never going to be a reality. It was a hoax from start to finish.

Er, sorry, but I always thought that "Sealion" was seriously considered and not a bluff from the very beginning. Adolf issued a Führer directive (No.16), the Army, Luftwaffe and Navy were actually seriously preparing (and not just pretending to do so) for the various possible X-days and all were busy until the Kriegsmarine came up with a "reality check" from thier side (July 28, 1940) raining on the invasion parade by telling then that shipping the troops over the Channel would take a ridiculous long time and they can't support and secure a broad enough LZ. Then the Luftwaffe failed to gain air superiority ("Adlertag" August 13, 1940 ff.) and at least from that day on "sealion" was blown off and just kept as a bluff.

Cheers,

[Sailor Steve]

The merchant navy never lost any more than 2-3% of there vessels....ships were taken 'under ownership' from other countries and new vessels built which almost always meant that losses were replaced quicker than they could be sunk :arrgh!:
I'll try to remember to look in Battle Of The Atlantic tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that new merchant aquisition didn't come close to equalling losses until late 1943. Even Churchill felt that if the Americans didn't help soon with construction that Britain might starve.

If Doenitz had had as many u-boats as he wanted it could have made a difference.

[STEED]

If Doenitz had had as many u-boats as he wanted it could have made a difference.

Hitler's war machine had a head start on land and he was not going to hang around while he had the advantage.

Hitler had lost the war by declaring war on Russia then America.

[Dowly]

The way I see the Battle of the Atlantic, it was lost before it even started. Kriegsmarine simply didnt have enough uboats to blockade Britain. I even dare to bet that even if all the uboats would have been XXI's in the start of the war, Britain would have still survived.

So, as a Doenitz, I would have b*tch slapped Hitler and told him to get real and wait a few years before starting the war.

[sandbag69]

Sealion was never going to be a reality. It was a hoax from start to finish.

Er, sorry, but I always thought that "Sealion" was seriously considered and not a bluff from the very beginning. Adolf issued a Führer directive (No.16), the Army, Luftwaffe and Navy were actually seriously preparing (and not just pretending to do so) for the various possible X-days and all were busy until the Kriegsmarine came up with a "reality check" from thier side (July 28, 1940) raining on the invasion parade by telling then that shipping the troops over the Channel would take a ridiculous long time and they can't support and secure a broad enough LZ. Then the Luftwaffe failed to gain air superiority ("Adlertag" August 13, 1940 ff.) and at least from that day on "sealion" was blown off and just kept as a bluff.

Cheers,

So you think Hitler was mad enough to attempt a Seaborne invasion against the nation with the largest navy and merchant marine in the world.

If he they had landed troops by sheer luck the Royal Navy would have mounted a large scale attack , broken through the u-boat line protecting Sealion and slaughtered the transport ships and Rhine barges.

Hitler bluffed. Best way to bluff is to imagine it is real and tell your men its real.

[TarJak]

The way I see the Battle of the Atlantic, it was lost before it even started. Kriegsmarine simply didnt have enough uboats to blockade Britain. I even dare to bet that even if all the uboats would have been XXI's in the start of the war, Britain would have still survived.

So, as a Doenitz, I would have b*tch slapped Hitler and told him to get real and wait a few years before starting the war.

Spot on Dowly. The U-waffe was not in a fit state to set up worlf packs in 1939 nor was it able to do so until well into '42 and even then there were still not enough to handle all the operations they had to cover. It all came down to how many operational boats were available and for Germany to have won, they would have had to have the 300 boats in 1939 which was never going to happen unless they started their full scale building programme much ealier than they could.

Hitler couldn't wait long enough to get all his ducks in a row because of Germany's debts and the threat posed by Russian military build ups.

[AndyW]

So you think Hitler was mad enough to attempt a Seaborne invasion against the nation with the largest navy and merchant marine in the world.

Well, I did not saw any historical evidence so far suggesting that "Operation Sealion" was a bluff from the very beginning, so yes. It's important to distinguish between the dead serious planning and preparation before August 1940 and - after realizing the "showstoppers" in late July / early August 1940 - the later deception that "Sealion" may happen when in fact it became clear to the Germans that it's not feasible.

If he they had landed troops by sheer luck the Royal Navy would have mounted a large scale attack , broken through the u-boat line protecting Sealion and slaughtered the transport ships and Rhine barges.

The landing zone requested by the German Army was between Beachy Head in the West and Ramsgate in the East with additional landings at Wight / Portsmouth. The Kriegsmarine could only support a smaller landing strip and had objections against loading the landing crafts outside French harbours. The corridor was about to protected heavily by mines, coastal artillery, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Portsmouth, Plymouth and other RN harbours were planned to be bombed heavily and the few German U-Boats were drawn to screen the British ports and the corridor.

Hitler bluffed. Best way to bluff is to imagine it is real and tell your men its real.

I'm interested to see anything supporting this theory.

Whenever Hitler "bluffed" he told at least his High Command so. Hitler often ordered the High Command (OKW, OKH) to prepare operational plans for various possibilities, and he always informed them if he changed his mind and the operation is not going to happen or is postponed.

If you read the Halder's private war diary or the official OKW war diary, you can clearly see that the preperations for "Sealion" were serious and exceeding everything one is willing to invest into a bluff. Only after they realized in early August 1940 that it's not feasible to conduct a amphibious landing with a reasonable chance of success, they turned "Sealion" into a deceptive "bluff", i.e. they continiued to give the impression that they are preparing for it, but with a substantially lesser enthuisasm compared to the serious full scale planning and preparation earlier.

Cheeers,

[STEED]

It has been proved that Hitler had no real interest to carry out Sealion as Hitler always wanted living space for his people in the east. The German build up was a real joke but it served it's purpose as a bluff before our very eyes.

[deamyont]

It has been proved that Hitler had no real interest to carry out Sealion as Hitler always wanted living space for his people in the east. The German build up was a real joke but it served it's purpose as a bluff before our very eyes.

Source? No? Didn't think so either.

[STEED]

Source? No? Didn't think so either.

Why don't you check the Sealion build up for yourself? You don't need to be an expert to see it was a joke.

Source Military Experts.

[AVGWarhawk]

Play nice men. Glad we could discuss this like gentlemen.

[sandbag69]

It has been proved that Hitler had no real interest to carry out Sealion as Hitler always wanted living space for his people in the east. The German build up was a real joke but it served it's purpose as a bluff before our very eyes.

Source? No? Didn't think so either.

Hitler pointed out that the naval preparations for "Operation Sealion" was now almost complete. "All our barges are now in place, and we have more held in reserve along river banks," :hmm:

Barges....lol barges to cross the English Channel. Most of the barges didnt even have engines. They would need to have been towed across.

[AVGWarhawk]

Not to mention England had photo recon of the barges and I believe they started bombing the heck out barges.

[CaptainAsh]

think is, after dunkirk I m not sure england at anything efficient to stop german ONCE they were able to land on beach.
About the crossing? Well that was all the purpose of the battle of england in summer 40... If the luftwaffe had established his supremacy in air, not a single english warship would have been able to enter the channel. Just think about the bay of biskay under allied air superiority and try to imagine the same superiority in the channel crossing point were not place is more far away than 100 km of a luftwaffe base. Battle of england was the key for a successful landing.
The other thing to consider is the people. English are not french. And I know it well because I m french ^^. English, as a nation, would never had surrender. So what s the point for germany to invade england? Just occupy a possible base for landing in europe by american?
I do think the war in the west was a total stupidity by Hittler as he was obviously going to be face to face with US some time without any chance to win.

In my oppinion, Hittler should have stop right after the french campagn and be great prince by giving back to france what he did conquer with for only condition that western allied (at that time only france and english) would not bother anymore about his conquest in east. Then he would have been free to make the war into the east at his full potential. I do believe he would have lost anyway, for the same reason US lost war in vietnam. (I will just remember to you some words of Ho Chi Min : we will kill one of your soldier for each ten of our soldier and still, it s you who re going to be tired in the end).

[Sailor Steve]

If Doenitz had had as many u-boats as he wanted it could have made a difference.

Hitler's war machine had a head start on land and he was not going to hang around while he had the advantage.

Hitler had lost the war by declaring war on Russia then America.
I wasn't speaking to objectives or plans, just numbers.

Hitler pointed out that the naval preparations for "Operation Sealion" was now almost complete. "All our barges are now in place, and we have more held in reserve along river banks," :hmm:

Barges....lol barges to cross the English Channel. Most of the barges didnt even have engines. They would need to have been towed across.
When the Armada was trying to subdue England in 1588, the plan was to have the Duke of Parma's army cross from Flanders to the Island in barges. Probably wouldn't have worked then, either.

[Sailor Steve]

Anyway, here are the numbers I promised, courtesy of Hughes and Costello's The Battle Of The Atlantic:

At the beginning of the war the British merchant fleet consisted of about 6,000 ships over 500 tons.

to date: ships lost / tonnage lost / new tonnage built
12/39: 105 / 810,000 / 330,000
3/40: 80 / 750,000 / 350,000
6/40: can't find
9/40: 150 / 1,400,000 / 250,000
12/40: 130 / 1,250,000 / 250,000
3/41: 100 / 1,300,000 / 400,000
6/41: 150 / 1,600,000 / 500,000
9/41: 90 / 750,000 / 600,000
12/41: 70 / 800,000 / 600,000
3/42: 225 / 2,100,000 / 800,000
6/42: 240 / 1,350,000 / 850,000
9/42: 290 / 2,750,000 / 3,000,000
12/42: 260 / 2,000,000 / 2,500,000
3/43: 200 / 1,500,000 / 2,750,000
6/43: 120 / 900,000 / 3,800,000

I stopped here because after this date it just keeps getting worse for the Germans. Unfortunately the lists don't include the number of new ship built. If the Germans could have put twice as many u-boats into the Atlantic, Churchill's fears might have played out; but it would have to have been before Henry Kaiser started his production-line building program.

[Castout]

If i were Donitz i would join the Allied to win the war :rotfl:.

Okay okay let's be more serious,
German started the invasion of Ploand with mostly Pz II and Pz III tanks so saying that Hitler started the war because its army was at a BIG advantage is not completely correct. Nazi got a big adavantage in tanks after it created Panther tanks(It was the 2nd most nemurous German tanks during WWII) while Tiger was produced not to a great number. The development of Panther followed the lessons from the shocking Russian T-34 with its then revolutionary sloped armor and big calibre gun.

However when Hitler started the war with the invasion of Ploand the Kriegsmarine simply didn't have the resources to win the war at sea(for example its 7th flotilla was only equipped with the then brand new 4 type VIIB). However during the course of war these small number of u-boats proved their woirth beyond their numbers especially during the 1940s when the British was busy evacuating Dunkirk with all vailable ships hence all convoy and merchantmen ships were not escorted. The loss of the merchantship was more than the British could ever replenish until 1942 with America entering the war. Faced with seeminglly enemy with unlimited resources the German miscalculated(again) and the British since then produced more ships than the u-boats could ever sink. And this was made worse by the deciphering of enigma machine(all 9 tankers used to replenish u-boat fuels were destroyed thx to this)

In summary: Given their numbers the u-boat gave an excellent and heroic service to the German empire during WWII and their effect was truly out of the proporion of their numbers. They were fighting a desperate war since the beginning.


In a war of attrition:
So in my opinion the German could only win the war at sea if they had control of the sky to support the u-boat campaign. Perhaps with long range interceptor and naval bombers or the use of carriers. "So Herr Goring where's your planes the British has plenty";). That's my 2 cents

For 'blitzkrieg"
If only they had A-bomb...

[Hartmann]

First of all , in the battle of britain , correct the mistake of bombing london and continues with the destruction of air bases ,aircraft factories and ports.
this was the key factor of the german defeat with england.
With air superiority the british warships can be wiped out by planes, like the in the pacific war, where the Aircraft power against warships was decissive.

Build heavy bombers with a long range fighters scorts, and convert british factories in rubble

Concentrate all boats in the Western Appraoches of brittain, nor med or other scenarios.

Early development of snorkel and XXI boat

Be more careful with Enigma decoding system, and asumes it as probably decoded.
more changes in codes.



------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, not related with doenitz but yes with hitler:

Not crush the british army in dunkerque.

Delay of guderian in reach moscow before winter 41 by hitler orders.

The stalingrad battle, where tank crews were used as an infantery troops in the city , the crazy fanatism in take a city with the stalin name at all costs and the lost of the whole 6th army.

After winter of 1942 ,the turning point, the war was lost anyway.:yep:

[TarJak]

You can add the debacle in North Africa in an attempt to bail out Italy, to that list as well.

Hitler's strategic objectives were always to knock out the Russians. His original strategy for dealing with Britain was much the same as it was when he annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia to hope they wouldn't engage and if they did attempt to put them into a position to sue for peace.

He was on a timetable driven by the Russian build up so when he saw he couldn't get his way against Britain after the relatively easy take over of Western Europe, he went back to his original focus in the East.

He then needed to strike for the oil and mineral fields in the Urals just to keep is war machine going because Germany could not import oil or other resources he was short of without running the gauntlet of the RN which was a force he knew his KM was never in a position to defeat.

Once the US entered the war in terms of providing escorts and ship building facilities for Britain, Hitler and Germany's fates were sealed. The tonnage sunk could not keep up with the ship building prowess of the USA who did not have any real import restrictions due to it's geography.

[NoLine]

Germany lost the (entire) war when Hitler declared war on the USA in 1941

cheers
NoLine

[Jimbuna]

I would have said "when he invaded Russia" If Hitler had not threatened to invade Britain it is debatable whether the US would have become involved with regards to protecting mainland Europe :hmm:

[danurve]

I would have had placed in my Will;

If theres ever my photograph placed in a motion picture, make sure there are no Flys on it.

[Jimbuna]

I would have had placed in my Will;

If theres ever my photograph placed in a motion picture, make sure there are no Flys on it.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

[NoLine]

I would have said "when he invaded Russia" If Hitler had not threatened to invade Britain it is debatable whether the US would have become involved with regards to protecting mainland Europe :hmm:

Hitler had no real other option but attack the Soviet Union, he didt have enough raw materials and oil to keep the war going
Declaring war on the USA on the other hand served no real purpose, although the uboats where happy :)
Im not sure US congress would have allowed a war on two fronts after Japans attack, by declaring war on the Germans

I could be wrong though

cheers
NoLine

[STEED]

Hitler had no real other option but attack the Soviet Union, he didt have enough raw materials and oil to keep the war going


Hitler set it all down in his book back in the 1920's living place for the German people lays in the east. His dream came real when he got power and he always wanted war with Russia. Your spot on about the oil.

[Steel_Tomb]

The thing that lost the war for the Germans was that Hitlers ego got the better of him. If he had continued to bomb the RAF airfields in the south east of England the war England would have been defenceless and easily invaded & defeated. All the army's equipment was rusting away at Dunkirk and without air cover we would have been compelely stuffed.

[Jimbuna]

Hitler did have options......mainly not to become a belligerant and negotiate trade agreements :arrgh!:

[STEED]

The thing that lost the war for the Germans was that Hitlers ego got the better of him. If he had continued to bomb the RAF airfields in the south east of England the war England would have been defenceless and easily invaded & defeated. All the army's equipment was rusting away at Dunkirk and without air cover we would have been compelely stuffed.

The R.A.F would had pulled back long before being defeated.

Operation Sea Lion has been proved to be a great defeat for Hitler, the evidence is based on the first study back in 1974 by veterans on both sides and a up to date study has agreed with them. German forces would of got no further than 25 to 30 miles in land before they would be forced to withdraw from attacks by the R.A.F and the RN, also don't forget we built a number of defencive positions in key areas that would have slowed down the Germans.

[scrag]

Interesting question -

First order of the day sink everything and I mean everything - regardless of nationality war now exists and any and all vessels operating in known trade routes with the UK are subject to attack without prior warning.

Repeatedly used mines in harbor areas and choke points. I would also would develope a heavy weight deep water mine and place them in areas that would likely interdict shipping (even is they were released in the Gulf Stream and traveled into the Northern Seas). Mines would also be used as primary load outs on U Boats prior to initiating unrestricted warfare.)

Pre-dispostioned significant resources to resupply my boats away from home port (Subtenders).

Attempted better efforts to obtain foreign ports to operate from in the Atlantic.

Coordinated with IJN on developing better tactics (for them) and encouraging the use of I boats in unrestricted Submarine warfare - in fact asked for a squadron and support for them in Europe - imagine an I Boat with a schnorkel (eventually) - or the immediate impact of the Japanese Submarine version of the long lance)

Developed and fielded a surface search radar for the Condor.

Pressed hard for a significant means of detecting and countering radar.

Pressed harder for a longer range heavier torpedo that employed a wake home capability or at least was capable of traveling as much as 20 Nm and would then float in the water column and act as a mine after the fuel expended.

Possibly used my capital ships to draw the Royal Navy into a U Boat version of the Kursk saliant ambush. Short of that the surface Navy was used for nothing significant they drew off some assets but they effectively were useless (I know some will disagree but they drew off valuable yard and construction space that could have been used to build a significantly larger submarine force).

Forced the Italians to operate in the Atlantic (would have to move considerable assets of them into bases in Germany to be effective - but anything would have been better than surrending them wholesale).

Build T-34's

Regarding the what if and Hitler - I would have NOT gone into Poland or France and played the foreign policy game a bit longer - obviously the Brits with Chamberlein where handicaped and the US had significant German ties. I would also look hard at increasing ties with the Spanish. Worked harder on stirring up issues between the Russians and Japanese while smiling along and treating both as friends. I would not go into Africa as it netted nothing in reality - I need oil and raw materials and if I can stave off a war with England I get what I want by an all out atttack on the USSR vice proving yet again that the French are not capable of understanding manuever warfare. Imagine if I could prove or justify that the Communists has designs on world domination and that they were a direct threat to my country - then I am justified in attacking (even using Poland as a staging ground) remember the world was significantly more worried about commies than the fascism.

Oh and the comment that the Kreigsmarine was not a group of Nazies holds as much water as the same BS that the Germany had no idea about war atrocities or the vendetta against non arian races. I will give you that there are elements in all the services that dispised the Corporal, but in fact they seemed farily comitted to the German cause (and the Nazies) - for if they were not there would have been a different WWII all together. If I know that my neighbor is murderer or a thief and I do nothing does that also mean that I in part share in the crime of harboring a fugitive?

[GoldenRivet]

If you were Karl Donitz how would you have won the Battle of the Atlantic and thus defeated Britain.

Here's how I would have done it.

1. Concentrate on cutting off the British Supply lines by sending U-boats to only the Western Appraoches of Britain. Forget the Med, Indian Ocean, and even the US Atlantic Coast they were side shows and not the main theatre. The main aim of a u-boat is to place an enemy nation under blockade not to just sink tonnage.
This is exactly how the British won WW1. They blockaded Germany until into 1919 and starved them into submission.

2. Tankers were to be number 1 Priority targets. Britian produced no oil in 1939 - 45 and was totally reliant on Tankers bringing it in.

3. Demand Kriegsmarine sorties and feint attacks into the Atlantic. Thus pulling many British Destroyers and search aircraft away from ASW duty.

4. Demand Luftwaffe concentrate on bombing British Ports and Docks rather than City bombing. British Dockers were notorous for taking weeks to unload ships even when the country had introduced rationing. They even went on strike (Damn Commies I bet) many times. A few well placed bombs and they wouldn't have shown up for work at all.

5. Demand Luftwaffe air sorties over convoy routes. Forgot the Condors attacking Convoys they were mostly useless at it.

6. Send special raiding U-boats to attack coastal Oil refineries in Curacoa and then US Coast when the US entered the war. Shell those Oil tanks and blow see em burn.

7. Attack Destroyers and Escorts when possible. Dont just assume that they are the hound and the u-boats are the fox.

8. The most brutal of all would be to sink the Rescue ships in convoys when possible. I know it would be horrendous but to break morale of the merchant seaman it is a must. They would be terrified to come out of port. I would have been hung at Nurnberg for this.

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it.
counterpoint:

I do believe most of what you said was his intent.

Ill relate my situations to your numbering system

1. this was his original strategy and it would have worked except for the ever broadening world wide campaign in which Germany quested for war materials. Hitler wanted control of the Med and north africa... U-boats were sent there in support of German operations in the areas. Doenitz had little choice - when Adolf says jump you dont ask how high you just fuggin jump hahaha

2. Tankers WERE the main priority of the U-boat arm. A great number of them were sunk off the US east coast nearly choking the northeastern united states out of the war due to fuel oil shortages caused by the drumbeat missions. (most oil came from texas on ships there were no interstate highways back then) Secondary to tankers The Germans knew that there was an ongoing massive stockpile of weaponry being shipped to the British Isles every day so General Merchant Ships were of great importance to haulting the "arsenal of democrocy".

3. There were a number of successful schnell boat attacks on British port cities, also several attempts were made by the Kriegsmarine surface groups to break out into the atlantic most frequently by means of the Denmark Straits. Some of these operations were mildly successful, others were not. Germany had not yet created a navy capable of directly threatening the British Fleet, therefore Hitler was reluctant to send his limited surface groups into the open seas to challenge the enemy.

4. The city wide bombing campaign was a blunder on the part of the luftwaffe, and tied the British and Germans in an ego driven air battle as each one bombarded the cities of the other. In 1940 - 1941 the operation sea lion was a very real possibility, most of the luftwaffe was engaged in preparing for the upcoming invasion by waging the battle of britian.

5. There were some limited convoy interdictions made by the luftwaffe, but the condor was nearly the only German airplane in the Luftwaffe arsenal capable of reaching far out to sea to bomb convoys bound for British ports. Remember... the Bf-109 (Me-109) had a short combat range - even when launced from bases in northern france the fighter only had about 5 to 10 minutes of fighting time before the fuel status required returning to base.

6. This could have been done - and actually was done a few times (though i doubt against the US) relatively shallow water prevented many attacks of this nature - despite the fact that there were relatively few surface units capabale of fighting off a U-boat... there were many many air bases well suited to the task that launced air patrols several times a day. Though this mission would have most assuredly destroyed some port facilities you would have basically been sacraficing U-boats by the dozens in the process.

7. Some limited success had been achieved using this strategy around the war's midpoint. Remember - firing a torpedo at a target moving in a straight line takes several minutes to calculate a solution per shot... escorts around convoys were usually very random and sporatic in their movements and therefore virtually impossible to plot a solution against... unlike the merchants who ran a straight slow course. By the time a commander fired a 4 shot spread in the slim hopes of hitting a fast moving and maneuverable escort he could have easily sunk 3 or 4 merchants.

8. Convoys did not usually send any boats or ships to rescue survivors - this is the harsh brutality of the nature of WW2 U-boat combat in the Atlantic Ocean. The best the convoys could do would be to mark the position of the stricken boats on their charts and radio in for search and rescue. This usually came in the form of a sea plane. most probably a PBY catalina. Rescue might come within hours, it might come within days or it might never come at all. escorts rarely if ever stopped to rescue survivors because they had the job of protecting the convoy - the commanders would have known that rescue ops would make a nice sitting duck out of them... merchants didnt commit to rescue operations because they cannot turn out of the convoy line without disrupting the whole show and for the very reason of becoming sitting ducks.

Given the broad area the U-boats had to cover... given the utter difficulty and impossibility of their situation from day one... given the opposition they faced im surprised that they did as well as they actually did.

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

the best way to win the Battle of the Atlantic would be more attention to encryption and misinformation. When Enigma was cracked, the Uboats were bringing a butterknife to a gunfight. The Allies knew where they were and where they were going to be. All they had to do was reroute the convoys and leave an ASW killer group in waiting. It's a miracle any Uboat crews survived the war. If the Allies don't crack the codes, at least send out false information where Milk Cows would be, false headings of phony U-Boats, that sort of thing. The Germans were strong in all phases of war, but they didn't give enough credence to intell, where the Allies did. Intell was why the US won Midway and why the Allies won the Atlantic.

Given the sparse resources Donitz had t work with, he may not have won the Atlantic, but the war surely could have drug out longer.

[STEED]

the best way to win the Battle of the Atlantic would be more attention to encryption and misinformation. When Enigma was cracked, the Uboats were bringing a butterknife to a gunfight. The Allies knew where they were and where they were going to be.

U-Boat codes were much harder to break and the operators were not sloppy like the army and air force. Out of the three military wings there's was the hardest to crack and were updated more.

[NoLine]

the best way to win the Battle of the Atlantic would be more attention to encryption and misinformation. When Enigma was cracked, the Uboats were bringing a butterknife to a gunfight. The Allies knew where they were and where they were going to be.

U-Boat codes were much harder to break and the operators were not sloppy like the army and air force. Out of the three military wings there's was the hardest to crack and were updated more.

dont think it would have mattered much if the german codes werent broken the brits used radio direction finding to pinpoint the subs on the map, without knowing what they where talking about

The Poles broke the enigma code from the wehrmacht as soon as 1939 the extra rotor (4 iso 3) from the kriegsmarine was harder to crack

Just using the radio defeated the uboats, donnitz talks about this in his book how they didnt think radio direction finding could be that accurate

cheers
NoLine

[Jimbuna]

In particular during the early years of the war it was in fact precisely the breaking of the enigma that allowed the allies to redirect convoys away from where they knew the u-boats were lying in wait that saved countless lives and ships :arrgh!: