Not even a game, let alone a sim

[gollum31548]

Sorry Captains, just installed the 1.2 patch, started a new career and was ordered to photograph enemy carriers. In Manila. On 10 December 1941. I don't much care about eye candy, but anything calling itself a simualtion should, at least, simulate the conflct, should't it ?

I think I am gonna shelve this one until about patch 1.4 and hope it gets better:oops:

[Dane]

Your choice, this life is not all about killing, reference the Virginia episode

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe it is more a 'simulation' type game. It is not a 100% true simulation and probably will never be. Will the modders get it close to RL as possible? You bet'cha. From what I have seen dispite the quirks of some patrols, it is very good.

[TriskettheKid]

Yeah, seriously.

How can they call this a simulation if they don't even have a toilet? Disgraceful, Ubi. Disgraceful.

[FIREWALL]

WoW!!! This has been so beaten into the ground. Wait till about 12-2008
about the same time GWX was released for SH-3 [ 12-06 ] and lets see how we feel then. And see what has been done to SH-4.

Neal Keep a collection of a variety of these posts and publish them then.

[Ducimus]

As realism mods go, unless a new mod group emerges, i think about the best your going to see is Berry's "Real Fleet boat". Im sure the GWX team will look at SH4 eventually, but they've already made it abundantly clear their into uboats and the Atlantic, and not interested in fleet boats and the pacfic. So right now your money's riding on Berry.

[Duke_Wellington_1st]

This game ISNT a simulation at present , and nor should we have to rely on 3rd party developers to make it so.

This game belongs on XBOX at present, only - console players wouldnt defend an unfinished product with bugs, AI that dont respond to you and a litany of problems that stop this from being a naval sim.

crap verging on a discrace.

[captainFlunky]

I guess it's what you are looking for. It's a hobby like building model airplanes or birdwatching- purely recreational. And if it doesn't do it for you or it makes you frustrated one way or another, don't play it.

[Duke_Wellington_1st]

I guess it's what you are looking for. It's a hobby like building model airplanes or birdwatching- purely recreational. And if it doesn't do it for you or it makes you frustrated one way or another, don't play it.

The game claims to be a Naval Sim, I bought it for that reason (having loved the series). This isnt the case.
It seems that as time progresses and graphics become far more superior, publishers are far happier delivering "eye candy" instead of the real content that developed the original fanbase. The recent patch only reinforces my opinion on this (giving us anti-aliasing instead of fixing the motherload of real problems...) I see many posts on here from young chaps appluading themselves and the game for sinking battleships in full res and how exciting and beuatiful it is.....without thinking that this was done on the 2nd patrol, with no chase given by the escort, with no real effort involved....not to speak of realism.

Im sure there are people plenty happy with this, there always will be. But I cannot help but feel that ALOT has been lost between this version of the game and SHIII.
I hate seeing decent game series on the PC get eroded by this "console gaming" mentality. yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P

[Reaves]

I hate seeing decent game series on the PC get eroded by this "console gaming" mentality. yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P


That the best point i've heard in a long time.

While I like SH4, the skill level is just too easy. Expcept with the constant air attacks.

The new big complaint seems to be how slack the enemy warships are. I surfaced last night in a convoy and not one DD attacked me.

*Looks forward to patch 1.3 :up:

[captainFlunky]

yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P
Good point. But I think that given the state of PC gaming vis a vis console gaming we are at a transitional point as consoles 'catch up' to PC's as far as sophistication is concerned. Unfortunately, I think the writing is on the wall and there will be less and less complex simulation games coming out in the future because of the potential earnings from developing the 'Britney Spears' for consoles that cater to a younger demographic with more time and disposable income to dedicate to games. It's sad really and makes me long for the good old days of the late 80's, early 90's when Dynamix was putting out games that couldn't possibly be rivaled by the SNES or Genesis. Back then I think, PC gamers had deeper, richer games then their console brothers could ever hope for. (Not that I didn't waste many an hour in college playing Madden, PTO, or Aerobiz on Ye Olde SNES.)

Lets face it- games like SH4 are a dying breed, and not to sound overly fawning I think we should enjoy it while we have it, shortcomings and all. I too wish there was "more" to it, but it's not like there are oodles of sub sims out there as opposed to the seemingly thousands of mindless FPS.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

To be fair I wouldn't call SH3, with or without GWX, a simulation. It has far too many RPG elements, and not enough directly controllable technical elements, too be a simulation as such.

But that's just me indulging in pedantic musings.

[Aimbot]

This game ISNT a simulation at present , and nor should we have to rely on 3rd party developers to make it so.

This game belongs on XBOX at present, only - console players wouldnt defend an unfinished product with bugs, AI that dont respond to you and a litany of problems that stop this from being a naval sim.

crap verging on a discrace.
People who say **** like that have never owned a console. Most console games have their fair share of bugs. The difference is that, until the 360's (the current generation of the xbox, champ) downloadable content the bugs were there for life, unless of course the game sold well enough for a special edition that would cost another 30$.

[captainFlunky]

Again I think the question one has to ask one's self is 'do I find this experience enjoyable?' I doubt anyone here or on any other games related forum has ever been 100% satisfied with a game or simulation or what have you. And lets face it, a true simulation like what air force pilots use are not supposed to be fun, they are supposed to be training tools. Personally, after reading many books about submarine warfare in the second world war, I don't really think I'd enjoy spending my precious free time experiencing a true sim detailing the time frame of SH3 or SH4. Lets be honest, if that were the case, three quarters, probably more, of the patrol reports would be "no enemies encountered, no torpedoes fired". I understand and appriciate that some people DO want that, but I earnestly believe that the majority want to be the Dick O'Kane or Gunther Prien of their virtual war. Not out of the realms of reality, I don't like the idea of sinking 6 Yamatoes (is that correct) if you know what I mean

[Grothesj2]

What is the old saying about going to war? 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror? 95% boredom doesnt make for a very good game though it would make for a more realistic sim I guess. And you got that right, how many players want to go out repeatedly and get nothing to shoot at? But hey, that would be realistic.

[Floyd]

IMHO it's a very good simulation, although many details are not obvious.
Torped a ship yesterday, but only hit near the propeller. Using externals
i could see the propeller wasn't turning any longer and the ship stopped.
After a few minutes the damage seemed to be repaired and the ship made a
few knots. But the shaft must have been out of balance, because
it was "wobbling" and not turning "round". Never seen that before.

[Duke_Wellington_1st]

This game ISNT a simulation at present , and nor should we have to rely on 3rd party developers to make it so.

This game belongs on XBOX at present, only - console players wouldnt defend an unfinished product with bugs, AI that dont respond to you and a litany of problems that stop this from being a naval sim.

crap verging on a discrace.
People who say **** like that have never owned a console. Most console games have their fair share of bugs. The difference is that, until the 360's (the current generation of the xbox, champ) downloadable content the bugs were there for life, unless of course the game sold well enough for a special edition that would cost another 30$.

Ok - scratch the "bugs" comment then, how many console games have you purchased that came out of the box unfinished to such a degree as SHIV ? We all know that it just doesnt happen. anyways this is probably linking up to a much greater discussion... Its just painful to see this rushed approach to games development - in order to release a shiny, good looking, but ultimately failed product.

[ijozic]

Ok - scratch the "bugs" comment then, how many console games have you purchased that came out of the box unfinished to such a degree as SHIV ? We all know that it just doesnt happen. anyways this is probably linking up to a much greater discussion... Its just painful to see this rushed approach to games development - in order to release a shiny, good looking, but ultimately failed product.

How many console games do you know that are so complex as a game like Silent Hunter IV is?

[Aimbot]

Ok - scratch the "bugs" comment then, how many console games have you purchased that came out of the box unfinished to such a degree as SHIV ? We all know that it just doesnt happen. anyways this is probably linking up to a much greater discussion... Its just painful to see this rushed approach to games development - in order to release a shiny, good looking, but ultimately failed product. I don't buy console games that review poorly, because I know they can't be patched. My cousin is not so picky, he has a copy of True Crime: Streets of LA that is just as buggy as SHIV before the patches. Madden 06 for the PSP was so buggy EA had to recall it. And if you want a game that advertised a bunch of features it couldn't deliver the icon is an x-box game: Fable.

[Boris]

Gollum hates SH4, hates it he says... Ubi ruinsed it! Gollum, gollum

http://darcy.da.funpic.de/DasgeheimeTagebuch_Dateien/Gollum.jpg

[Grunt]

From Oz to Hamburg? What did you do wrong? Sleep with the admirals daughter?

[bruschi sauro]

yesterday i have re-installed the sim with the patch 1.20,:D and played some war patrol, I am not very happy,,,the grafics become far more superior, but the real content that I want is far from the standard of Sh 3.:cry:
Now I am waiting for the patch 1.30:-? UBI.. WHERE IS UBI?
GWX 1.30 USERS
U-65 IXB

[joea]

Sorry Captains, just installed the 1.2 patch, started a new career and was ordered to photograph enemy carriers. In Manila. On 10 December 1941. I don't much care about eye candy, but anything calling itself a simualtion should, at least, simulate the conflct, should't it ?

I think I am gonna shelve this one until about patch 1.4 and hope it gets better:oops:

Well sorry but the stock campaign in SH3 was as unrealistic as it seems SH4 is. This is up to the modders to change. I think we forget that sims and games can be realistic in one area and not another. IMHO, a sim needs a balance in graphics, physics (including weapons and damage modelling), environment, and what your are talking about historical context. SH3 with GWX is currently at a stage with a good balance.

[nfitzsimmons]

yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P
Good point. But I think that given the state of PC gaming vis a vis console gaming we are at a transitional point as consoles 'catch up' to PC's as far as sophistication is concerned. Unfortunately, I think the writing is on the wall and there will be less and less complex simulation games coming out in the future because of the potential earnings from developing the 'Britney Spears' for consoles that cater to a younger demographic with more time and disposable income to dedicate to games. It's sad really and makes me long for the good old days of the late 80's, early 90's when Dynamix was putting out games that couldn't possibly be rivaled by the SNES or Genesis. Back then I think, PC gamers had deeper, richer games then their console brothers could ever hope for. (Not that I didn't waste many an hour in college playing Madden, PTO, or Aerobiz on Ye Olde SNES.)

Lets face it- games like SH4 are a dying breed, and not to sound overly fawning I think we should enjoy it while we have it, shortcomings and all. I too wish there was "more" to it, but it's not like there are oodles of sub sims out there as opposed to the seemingly thousands of mindless FPS.

I agree with your point here. Let's face it, it's a whole lot easier to develop for the console market because you have one hardware platform you have to work with. Unlike the PC market where you have a huge number of possible hardware/installed software/OS combinations.

To illustrate this point, I'm not seeing some of the 1.2 issues that a number of people have reported here, but I am seeing some others. Does my 7600GS behave differently that someone else's 7600GT? Or is it due to different CPU, or BIOS version, or OS patch level, or whatever?

The unfortunate point is that gaming companies are seeing a huge increase in households that have both a PC and a dedicated gaming console of some flavor, and they are going to gravitate to the market with the most profit.

[nfitzsimmons]

What is the old saying about going to war? 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror? 95% boredom doesnt make for a very good game though it would make for a more realistic sim I guess. And you got that right, how many players want to go out repeatedly and get nothing to shoot at? But hey, that would be realistic.

Hey, if we want true realism, let's eliminate time compression entirely.

[perisher]

The game claims to be a Naval Sim, I bought it for that reason (having loved the series). This isnt the case.
It seems that as time progresses and graphics become far more superior, publishers are far happier delivering "eye candy" instead of the real content that developed the original fanbase. The recent patch only reinforces my opinion on this (giving us anti-aliasing instead of fixing the motherload of real problems...) I see many posts on here from young chaps appluading themselves and the game for sinking battleships in full res and how exciting and beuatiful it is.....without thinking that this was done on the 2nd patrol, with no chase given by the escort, with no real effort involved....not to speak of realism.

Im sure there are people plenty happy with this, there always will be. But I cannot help but feel that ALOT has been lost between this version of the game and SHIII.
I hate seeing decent game series on the PC get eroded by this "console gaming" mentality. yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P

At the end of the day Ubisoft is a commercial company that has to make money to survive. It makes commercial sense to go for the bigger market, although, as the recent record numbers of visitors to these forums shows, we, the more serious gamers, are a significant minority. Subsim has a good relationship with Ubisoft and we should take care of that, after all how many companies out there are making subsims?

We should encourage Ubisoft to produce more of what we like but not expect them to do it at a significant cost to their larger customer base. As long as they continue to make some effort at realism and leave the games open to mods we should be thankful. No one will ever produce a game or sim that will please us all, we all have our own ideas about the realism / playability balance. For instance, Ubisoft have put a cap on the number of missions in a career, just like real life and yet it is often complained about here. The developer can never win them all, and neither can the moder, and the same goes for the game player.

Personally, to hell with graphics, give me real control of my boat.

[Tobus]

I hate seeing decent game series on the PC get eroded by this "console gaming" mentality. yes, it sells, but so does Britney Spears and Paris Hilton :P


The strange thing is:
numerous reports claim that most gamers are in the ages of 25-45, are very critical in their choice of games, are more fervent in the mostly deeper PC-games than in the more visually and speedy oriented consoles and spend more money on games and entertainment because they have jobs. I certainly fall within this category.

In this regard it is at least odd that more and more dev's are making games for PC that seem to be more and more catered to the "console-type" players of ages 25 and below. Or even worse: port a console title to PC with horrible bugs (Splinter Cell DA for instance).

Why focus on the kids and consoles when the big bucks can be earned in more mature PC games? Is the developmentcost for such games that much higher than the 13-a-dozen console games?

BTW, this is no rant on consoles guys, to each his own. That's what makes the games-industry so great.:sunny:

[btaft]

Why focus on the kids and consoles when the big bucks can be earned in more mature PC games? Is the developmentcost for such games that much higher than the 13-a-dozen console games?


It is all about dollars....check out this link, Console games outsell PC games 6:1 in dollars and 5:1 in units with the gap widening over time

http://www.theesa.com/facts/sales_genre_data.php

They focus on the kids for the "Daddy buy me this" effect. Whether Daddy is playing the game or not, he is typically the one buying it for junior. Eventually junior grows up and has his own money and the console game makers want to ensure that he continues to spend his money with them

Also we live in a society of instant gratification, where the quick "relatively easy" sinking is more attractive and holds the attention longer than the stalking the convoy for a few days to sneak in and hope to knock off a couple of merchants which would be more appealing to an older crowd.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the "true" simulation market be sent to the same hole that classic turn based strategy games have gone....only available on-line through download from specialty vendors (matrix games, battlefront, etc). Some of the hardcore racing sims have already gone this path where they are support mainly by community support. I would give it about 5-10 years

Having said that, I fall pretty deep into the 25-45 crowd and prefer a good true simulation (any type) that requires a steep learning curve than an easy quick fix. The good news is I will likely save a bunch of money since the number of available titles will dwindle/disappear but I will probably have to spend a lot more trying to keep a decent PC running with Windows XP in the year 2015 :D

[Sailor Steve]

What is the old saying about going to war? 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror? 95% boredom doesnt make for a very good game though it would make for a more realistic sim I guess. And you got that right, how many players want to go out repeatedly and get nothing to shoot at? But hey, that would be realistic.

Hey, if we want true realism, let's eliminate time compression entirely.
That's not quite true either. If we want true true realism, eliminate the time compression and then spend 24/7 in front of the computer staring at different screens until something actually happens.

[CCIP]

Here we go again, people confusing realism with reality. Very different things!

[CaptainAsh]

actualy you can do a 100% realism game which can be really fun on the playability. Time increase is the key. If the 95% boring life is passing 1000 times faster than the 5% exiting one then it s ok.

I will not adress any comment about bugs as the game as been released only one month ago! Give some time to the dev team for god sake!

For me the real point is the historic accuracy. And the question is : is it to the game developpers to assure the game is as historic accurate as possible or to the modders of the fan base? You can t ask for the modders to be ready by the time the game is release...

It went that way with SH3 and GWX...
It went that way with RTW and RTR...

For any lovers of historic accuracy, hope is in modders. Developpers played their part almost completely, they just have to fix the last bugs of the world engine then they will be done. Modders still have a world in front of them :)

[joea]

For any lovers of historic accuracy, hope is in modders. Developpers played their part almost completely, they just have to fix the last bugs of the world engine then they will be done. Modders still have a world in front of them :)

Wise post!!! :up:

[Grunt]

Lets ask for a patch that includes realism options like blinking, breathing, eating, going to the bathroom. With failure to do any of the above having an adverse effect on performance.

[nfitzsimmons]

What is the old saying about going to war? 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror? 95% boredom doesnt make for a very good game though it would make for a more realistic sim I guess. And you got that right, how many players want to go out repeatedly and get nothing to shoot at? But hey, that would be realistic.

Hey, if we want true realism, let's eliminate time compression entirely.
That's not quite true either. If we want true true realism, eliminate the time compression and then spend 24/7 in front of the computer staring at different screens until something actually happens.

Yeah, that's what I meant. And also have someone periodically throw a bucket of cold salt water at you.

[nfitzsimmons]

For me the real point is the historic accuracy. And the question is : is it to the game developpers to assure the game is as historic accurate as possible or to the modders of the fan base? You can t ask for the modders to be ready by the time the game is release...

It went that way with SH3 and GWX...
It went that way with RTW and RTR...

For any lovers of historic accuracy, hope is in modders. Developpers played their part almost completely, they just have to fix the last bugs of the world engine then they will be done. Modders still have a world in front of them :)

The RTW/RTW comparison is extremely good! It shows what dedicated modders can do with a good game engine and a poor original concept implementation.

[Tobus]

Lets ask for a patch that includes realism options like blinking, breathing, eating, going to the bathroom. With failure to do any of the above having an adverse effect on performance.

Then I'd just go and play "The Ship"
http://www.theshiponline.com

[Tobus]

It is all about dollars....check out this link, Console games outsell PC games 6:1 in dollars and 5:1 in units with the gap widening over time

http://www.theesa.com/facts/sales_genre_data.php

They focus on the kids for the "Daddy buy me this" effect. Whether Daddy is playing the game or not, he is typically the one buying it for junior. Eventually junior grows up and has his own money and the console game makers want to ensure that he continues to spend his money with them

Also we live in a society of instant gratification, where the quick "relatively easy" sinking is more attractive and holds the attention longer than the stalking the convoy for a few days to sneak in and hope to knock off a couple of merchants which would be more appealing to an older crowd.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the "true" simulation market be sent to the same hole that classic turn based strategy games have gone....only available on-line through download from specialty vendors (matrix games, battlefront, etc). Some of the hardcore racing sims have already gone this path where they are support mainly by community support. I would give it about 5-10 years

Having said that, I fall pretty deep into the 25-45 crowd and prefer a good true simulation (any type) that requires a steep learning curve than an easy quick fix. The good news is I will likely save a bunch of money since the number of available titles will dwindle/disappear but I will probably have to spend a lot more trying to keep a decent PC running with Windows XP in the year 2015 :D

If you ask me its a vicious circle. Shallow, uninteresting games with the aptly named instant gratification spawn whiney kids with no love for a truly good game. They grow up, meanwhile spending (daddy's) money on these games, themselves becoming shallow and uninteresting gamers.

Ask them about the greatest strategygame and they probably answer something like the latest Command & Conquer. I would probably go for the earliest version of Panzer General (which, btw, is still going strong on my XP machine:rock: ).

This general development in gaming really saddens me. A lot of good games come out, but less and less. And the games that tend to be good don't hold up under true gaming scrutiny. SH3 was rescued by modders and GWX, but I really fear for SH4. Already I'm leaving it to go back to SH3.

[CaptainAsh]

...
The RTW/RTW comparison is extremely good! It shows what dedicated modders can do with a good game engine and a poor original concept implementation.

You mean RTW/RTR ;)

[Guido]

I feel perhaps,

Some of the posters in this thread need to arrive at reality,

realism/reality................console.................... ...forza2.

Until some of the anoraks realise that the mass majority of people dont still play games on 14" crt screens, unlike YOU! - who dont eat, dont sleep, dont have a wife and child, spend all day driving a virtual submarine, then have the retrograde imagination that games made for a console are somehow not worthy of a simulation in your mind - get out and get a life, FORZA2 - yeah thats just another console game with pleasing the eye candy right?

Your submarine sub will die a lonely death, if doesnt move in the direction it has done, one more thing, thank gawd they fixed the AA!

cast out the shoe...........................again, follow the gauze.................

p.s silent hunter will become a console game soon, hurrahhhhh!
(guido opens his wardrobe door, just checking to see if his anorak is still ok, having left it there many years ago :))

[CaptainAsh]

And some posters in this thread need to be less offensive I feel...

[madrigal61]

Boris.... I just about spit my afternoon coffee all aover my LCD when I scrolled down and saw your post with Gollum....

That's absolutly the funniest thing I've seen in a while... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Thank's for the laugh...

Also... If Gollum hates it... that means us Hobbit'ses like it.... in a lembas kind of way....
:D

[Cakewalk]

This thread has me confuzzled. I think I'll go back to playing SH4 now, and then chill out later on my 360. :up:

[mookiemookie]

I feel perhaps,

Some of the posters in this thread need to arrive at reality,

realism/reality................console.................... ...forza2.

Until some of the anoraks realise that the mass majority of people dont still play games on 14" crt screens, unlike YOU! - who dont eat, dont sleep, dont have a wife and child, spend all day driving a virtual submarine, then have the retrograde imagination that games made for a console are somehow not worthy of a simulation in your mind - get out and get a life, FORZA2 - yeah thats just another console game with pleasing the eye candy right?

Your submarine sub will die a lonely death, if doesnt move in the direction it has done, one more thing, thank gawd they fixed the AA!

cast out the shoe...........................again, follow the gauze.................

p.s silent hunter will become a console game soon, hurrahhhhh!
(guido opens his wardrobe door, just checking to see if his anorak is still ok, having left it there many years ago :))

I think he's trying to be insulting, but I can't make out much of anything in the babblebabble. :roll::88)

[Grunt]

Ask them about the greatest strategygame and they probably answer something like the latest Command & Conquer. I would probably go for the earliest version of Panzer General (which, btw, is still going strong on my XP machine:rock: ).


Yes, but do you have Allied General, Pacific General, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and Wake of the Ravager to go along with Panzer General?

If not, PM me and Ill sed them over :rotfl:

God Bless that Abandonware :arrgh!:

[Tobus]

[quote=Tobus]Ask them about the greatest strategygame and they probably answer something like the latest Command & Conquer. I would probably go for the earliest version of Panzer General (which, btw, is still going strong on my XP machine:rock: ).[quote]


Yes, but do you have Allied General, Pacific General, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and Wake of the Ravager to go along with Panzer General?

If not, PM me and Ill sed them over :rotfl:

God Bless that Abandonware :arrgh!:
I've gottem all! God I'm getting old, wathing 256 color hexbased tank-thingies do battle with beige pixelmess called infantry and loving it.
And gotta love that midi-soundtrack. My wife just asked me if my soundcard is broken:rotfl: .

[Grunt]

Ever see Fantasy General? I think it was the last in the series.

And its my opinion that Wake of The Ravager is as good as any of the Baldurs gate series. Some of SSI's finest work...God rest their digital souls.

[Iceman]

My wife just asked me if my soundcard is broken:rotfl: .

Lol...

Gollum,Gollum...what a thread...

I have'nt played the older versions to really be able to compare...this version at least hasn't crashed to desktop which is always good....trying to photo recon into the Japan harbor there and finnally made it in...out of gas but made it...but mission does not seem to have a clear way of ending itself....and if trying to gimp back to a port now on no gas and drained battery's then damn!...dats gonna be pretty dang hard...plus no tows now either....lol...still gonna give this game alot more time...need to get into some MP and see how that goes...having "Real" life friends or foes always makes things better anyways....and the AI becomes secondary cannon fodder:)

[perisher]

Yeah, that's what I meant. And also have someone periodically throw a bucket of cold salt water at you.

I admire your attention to detail. Most of us just get someone to throw a bucket of cold water over us, without thinking to add salt first:D