View Full Version : Two Male students watch gunman reload?
They stood there and watched him reload...
2 count'em... 2 Male students stood and watched the Asian mass murderer reload ...
2
2 males... watched the dude empty his guns and begin to reload the last clip of the 9mm pistol
2 of 'em
2 males... maybe they should be called "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth'S"
2
I'm good at field striping then filling the mag on a 9mm hand gun... I can do it in 1 minute flat on a bad day...
So lets say this guys as good at weapons as I'am... I'll give him 30 secounds to eject and fill a 9mm clip
30 secounds ... 2 males watching ...just watching thats all...just watching
SUBMAN1
04-17-07, 05:47 PM
They stood there and watched him reload...
2 count'em... 2 Male students stood and watched the Asian mass murderer reload ...
2
2 males... watched the dude empty his guns and begin to reload the last clip of the 9mm pistol
2 of 'em
2 males... maybe they should be called "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth'S"
2
I'm good at field striping then filling the mag on a 9mm hand gun... I can do it in 1 minute flat on a bad day...
So lets say this guys as good at weapons as I'am... I'll give him 30 secounds to eject and fill a 9mm clip
30 secounds ... 2 males watching ...just watching thats all...just watching
Crazy
Tchocky
04-17-07, 06:12 PM
Oh ffs.
Just like we cant analyse the gunman's behaviour using logical reasoning, we can't possibly understand what was going through the minds of those present.
Maybe they were scared. maybe the bodies and blood around them discouraged them. It's nice of you to call them "pussies", U-533. Tactful
Kapitan_Phillips
04-17-07, 06:20 PM
They stood there and watched him reload...
2 count'em... 2 Male students stood and watched the Asian mass murderer reload ...
2
2 males... watched the dude empty his guns and begin to reload the last clip of the 9mm pistol
2 of 'em
2 males... maybe they should be called "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth'S"
2
I'm good at field striping then filling the mag on a 9mm hand gun... I can do it in 1 minute flat on a bad day...
So lets say this guys as good at weapons as I'am... I'll give him 30 secounds to eject and fill a 9mm clip
30 secounds ... 2 males watching ...just watching thats all...just watching
Bam, there goes your best friend.
Bam, there goes that kid you always teased.
Bam, there goes that girl you had a crush on.
Bam, there goes that kid who thought you were cool.
Bam, there goes your girlfriend.
Would you be in any condition to do anything after that?
Etienne
04-17-07, 06:42 PM
And what effect, exactly, does their gender have on the current situation?
We're not talking about trained soldiers, anyway. We're talking about engineering students in the middle of a class. I'd say panic is entirely understandable.
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
04-17-07, 06:57 PM
They stood there and watched him reload...
If they tried to charge gunman, and at that moment he finishes his reload and blows both of them away, would you be calling them suicidal idiots instead?
ASWnut101
04-17-07, 07:08 PM
No, but I would respect them even more if they did. At least they would have tried.
Anyways, like it was said:
~30 seconds to reload a magazine
Also, it takes some time (if you are relatively inexperienced) to drop the empty mag, pull the next one out of your pocket, line it up with the bottom of the hand-grip (That takes some time if you've got bad aim!), push it in, and either auto-charge it or "rack" it.
In that time, it's possible to get up, inflict a blow of choice (There's plenty of variety on the human body), and at least wrestle one of his pistols away.
Otherwise, I can understand the "fear" part.
Mixed feelings on this for me.
Yahoshua
04-17-07, 07:13 PM
Somebody who already witnessed or knows what this criminal had done, and what he is about to continue doing, should do something about it. I would go so far as to consider them accomplices in the killing for not trying to stop the gunman, nor for at least trying to help others escape the massacre.
It's no different from watching a mugger stab his victim to death and not even dialing 911.
Pitiful.
TteFAboB
04-17-07, 07:17 PM
Didn't some of them held a door shut with their feet while he shot through it?
Those did act and quite bravely so.
Tchocky
04-17-07, 07:20 PM
EDIT: Not worth it.
Crazy to make accusations like this about a situation nobody knows.
Maybe they dont know how long it takes to reload a gun. I have no idea if it takes 3 seconds of 3 minutes and thats without the stress of being shot at, stress of finding cover and confusion.
Given all that goes on these people may not know about guns, may be unsure how long he has been reloaded, maybe quite a distance away and hundreds of other possibilities.
By the time they realise hes stopped shooting, realise he's reloading i bet they havent been calmly thinking "he's only taken 19 seconds so far so 11 to go lets get him".
Stressful situations never happen calmly and well timed.
These guys are alive i assume in which case good for them - they managed to survive a horrific event.
Yahoshua
04-17-07, 07:27 PM
Already saw the post Tchocky. My response:
Death Before Dishonor.
I don't speak my opinion unless I know what I'm talking about.
Tchocky
04-17-07, 07:29 PM
Already saw the post Tchocky. My response:
Death Before Dishonor.
I don't speak my opinion unless I know what I'm talking about.
So you've been in their situation, or one like it? (not rhetorical, I'm curious)
Yahoshua
04-17-07, 07:35 PM
people still died, and it wasn't as drawn out as something like this. It was over quite quickly.
Platapus
04-17-07, 07:37 PM
They stood there and watched him reload...
I guess it depends on what was meant by reload.
If they meant he removed an empty magazine, stowed his weapon, opened a box of bullets, manually loaded 15 of them in the magazine, retrieved his weapon, inserted the magazine and manually worked the slide then I can understand your point. That takes a lot of time
If, on the other hand he ejected an empty magazine, inserted a loaded magazine and released the slide lock this can be done very quickly.
I have not read any reports on the number of magazines the shooter was carrying.
You did not mention how far these two students were from the gunman
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
So before I can judge these students, I would need a lot more information on the circumstances. Actually, even after getting a lot more information, I probably would not want to judge them.
I seriously doubt that these two students were standing right by the shooter while he was manually loading a magazine.
I am sure that there are a lot of people on the internet who would instantly disarm the shooter, braving certain death for the betterment of society, but the shooting did not take place on the internet. It was real life. and sadly in this case real death.
There are no saves nor reloads in real life. Nor can we alter the realism :(
They stood there and watched him reload...
2 count'em... 2 Male students stood and watched the Asian mass murderer reload ...
2
2 males... watched the dude empty his guns and begin to reload the last clip of the 9mm pistol
2 of 'em
2 males... maybe they should be called "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth'S"
2
I'm good at field striping then filling the mag on a 9mm hand gun... I can do it in 1 minute flat on a bad day...
So lets say this guys as good at weapons as I'am... I'll give him 30 secounds to eject and fill a 9mm clip
30 secounds ... 2 males watching ...just watching thats all...just watching
Bam, there goes your best friend.
Bam, there goes that kid you always teased.
Bam, there goes that girl you had a crush on.
Bam, there goes that kid who thought you were cool.
Bam, there goes your girlfriend.
Would you be in any condition to do anything after that?
Yes Kaptian Phillips
Yes I would do some thing
It has fallen to me several times to do some thing
I chose to stop or at least try to stop
I succeeded
I would not have been able to cope with my own life had I not at least tried...
but maybe these two males will be able to live and sleep better knowing they stood and watched and did not provoke the Asian Mass Murderer...
Hell ...who knows maybe one of them is studying to be a lawyer and he will get thousands of dollars from our government by proving what he did was best for everyone ... after he graduates...
HAA! for that matter these 2 probably will sue the families of the victims because they had to stand there and be traumatized buy watching a murderer reload his gun... because the victims took less bullets to kill than they should have
ASWnut101
04-17-07, 07:48 PM
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
Also, neither are reknown for thier stopping power. Just a fact.
Well they stopped 30+ people permanently.
Tchocky
04-17-07, 07:53 PM
Hell ...who knows maybe one of them is studying to be a lawyer and he will get thousands of dollars from our government by proving what he did was best for everyone ... after he graduates...
HAA! for that matter these 2 probably will sue the families of the victims because they had to stand there and be traumatized buy watching a murderer reload his gun... because the victims took less bullets to kill than they should have
You're a lovely person. Really.
Tchocky
04-17-07, 07:54 PM
people still died, and it wasn't as drawn out as something like this. It was over quite quickly.
Right, and did you intervene, or are you an "accomplice"?
ASWnut101
04-17-07, 07:55 PM
Well they stopped 30+ people permanently.
A headshot will do that to anybody. I can kill someone with a BB Rifle.
They stood there and watched him reload...
I guess it depends on what was meant by reload.
If they meant he removed an empty magazine, stowed his weapon, opened a box of bullets, manually loaded 15 of them in the magazine, retrieved his weapon, inserted the magazine and manually worked the slide then I can understand your point. That takes a lot of time
If, on the other hand he ejected an empty magazine, inserted a loaded magazine and released the slide lock this can be done very quickly.
I have not read any reports on the number of magazines the shooter was carrying.
You did not mention how far these two students were from the gunman
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
So before I can judge these students, I would need a lot more information on the circumstances. Actually, even after getting a lot more information, I probably would not want to judge them.
I seriously doubt that these two students were standing right by the shooter while he was manually loading a magazine.
I am sure that there are a lot of people on the internet who would instantly disarm the shooter, braving certain death for the betterment of society, but the shooting did not take place on the internet. It was real life. and sadly in this case real death.
There are no saves nor reloads in real life. Nor can we alter the realism :(
All the murders 9mm clips(which can hold up to 19 rounds) were empty the 22 was empty...
They both told the officer they watched the murderer put bullets into the clip..........
as I said "Maybe 30 seconds"
not on the internet?? True many armchair quarterback would have done it different
but the game has been played and the score is still the same and it was real life
as far as judging some one goes far be it from me
Im just point to the fact 2 males watched and did nothing
Platapus
04-17-07, 07:58 PM
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
Also, neither are reknown for thier stopping power. Just a fact.
You are right, but both have great killing power
Tchocky
04-17-07, 08:00 PM
as far as judging some one goes far be it from me
Hell ...who knows maybe one of them is studying to be a lawyer and he will get thousands of dollars from our government by proving what he did was best for everyone ... after he graduates...
HAA! for that matter these 2 probably will sue the families of the victims because they had to stand there and be traumatized buy watching a murderer reload his gun... because the victims took less bullets to kill than they should have
No comment
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
Also, neither are reknown for thier stopping power. Just a fact.
You are right, but both have great killing power
Honestly I would rather be shot with the 9mm...
The 22 would enter the ribcage and race round and round and round inside then maybe ricochet back and forth a bit... nasty way to die
as far as judging some one goes far be it from me
Hell ...who knows maybe one of them is studying to be a lawyer and he will get thousands of dollars from our government by proving what he did was best for everyone ... after he graduates...
HAA! for that matter these 2 probably will sue the families of the victims because they had to stand there and be traumatized buy watching a murderer reload his gun... because the victims took less bullets to kill than they should have
No comment
Just stating possible facts in this victimized society
Funny ol world aint it?
Yahoshua
04-17-07, 08:05 PM
people still died, and it wasn't as drawn out as something like this. It was over quite quickly.
Right, and did you intervene, or are you an "accomplice"?
One was a drive-by, the other was a bombing. Not exactly much oppurtunity to react. No I'm not going into the details. I worked hard enough already to bury them.
ASWnut101
04-17-07, 08:07 PM
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
Also, neither are reknown for thier stopping power. Just a fact.
You are right, but both have great killing power
As do forks, knives, pencils, ect.
What I'm trying to say (and I know I didn't point this out clearly; my apologies) is that if he used something like a .45 ACP or a .44 Magnum, there would have been alot more people dead. Alot more.
With a 9mm, a chest shot is not garunteed. Normally, SWAT, when using the 9mm cartridge, uses the "2-1" rule: Two shots to the chest, and one to the head. A .45 ACP shot to the chest will put you down. Down hard. And a .22? Forget about a chest shot. You'd have to get lucky and hit a vital organ like the heart if you want to stop someone. Supposedly, he used the .22 to shoot only himself, which makes sence. Use the more powerful to kill more, and leave the weak to yourself, as it might not even work.
Let me say this:
YOU go in that situation and YOU see what you do.
It's a tendency for people to get up on a soap box from the comfort of their home and get judgemental on people in violent situations.
Fear does a lot of things to people, and unreasonable though it may be, I think we can't really understand what may have been going through their heads. I'd love to say I'd be a hero, but until I actually go and do it, it's best not to elevate myself and some great values over the real and the actual.
As someone would say "Let the one here without sin cast the first stone" :hmm:
Yet we see in the example of United Flight 93 that, given some time to think about it, average people will fight back knowing that they may die in the attempt, especially when they know that death is a foregone conclusion if they don't.
Tchocky
04-17-07, 08:23 PM
people still died, and it wasn't as drawn out as something like this. It was over quite quickly.
Right, and did you intervene, or are you an "accomplice"?
One was a drive-by, the other was a bombing. Not exactly much oppurtunity to react. No I'm not going into the details. I worked hard enough already to bury them.
Yeah, I wont interrogate you. But from what you've said they were dissimiliar situations. You call students accomplices to mass murder for not reacting, then claim authority from personal experience in a situation that did not allow you to react.
*shrug*
Yahoshua
04-17-07, 08:27 PM
Doing something is better than doing nothing.
Doing something is better than doing nothing.
Not always.
These people survived. If they'd done something (i) it may not have worked and (ii) they could have been killed trying.
First rule of any rescue type situation is not to create more casualties than you have originally.
I remember during sea trials, we had sea training onboard. They would do all kinds of weird "situations" to see how we, as a crew, would respond to critical situations.
One day they decided to have one of the watchcrew "go insane" on the bridge. He started screaming in the middle of a crucial manuver while we were alongside a tanker refueling at sea. One of my buddies just clocked him, knocking him down, while i charged to tackle him and hold him. The whole thing lasted 5 seconds max. I recall afterwards I didnt even think, just did.
We were all trained in weapons, first aid, fire-fighting, etc.
I can't imagine some young fellows in a school reacting the way we would as trained military.
sonar732
04-17-07, 09:22 PM
We can beat a dead horse with this and feeding the trolls would be an understatement. Come on people...quit trying to analyze this situation either way and have some compasion! :hmm::hmm:
Onkel Neal
04-17-07, 10:27 PM
Also there are reports the shooter had two handguns. While one was a 9mm the other was a .22 automatic. Both hurt.
Also, neither are reknown for thier stopping power. Just a fact.
Haha, a 9mm has plenty of "stopping power". Try shooting yourself in the foot with one and then see how far you can run :)
Tchocky
04-17-07, 10:31 PM
Just stating possible facts in this victimized society
Funny ol world aint it? V Tech's law school is in Richmond, so no, you weren't.
I think you were just being nasty.
Oh well. Funny old world
baggygreen
04-17-07, 10:41 PM
look fellas.
Yeh, sure. from outside, being far removed from the situation, its nice to think that we woulda all been heroes, broken the little *****s neck and won lots of tv time, saved lives and gotten bravery awards.
Fact remains, its not likely that many of us would've. sure, it woulda been great if those blokes had been able to, but fact remains they were likely untrained and frozen with fear. I dont think anyone can really blame them for that. They're kids for gods sake, give em a fair go
TteFAboB
04-17-07, 10:42 PM
I stand corrected. It weren't the students blocking the door with their feet, it was a teacher blocking the door with his body.
U-533, here is your hero:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/4/17/123843.shtml?s=ic
An Israeli professor and Holocaust survivor sacrificed his own life to save the lives of countless students during the carnage Monday at Virginia Tech.
Liviu Librescu, 76, blocked the doorway to his classroom with his body and told the students to flee. He was shot through the door by gunman Cho Seung-Hui, "but all the students lived because of him,” Virginia Tech student Asael Arad said.
When the sound of gunfire drew closer, the professor braced himself against the door, holding it shut against the gunman in the hall, the New York Daily news reports. That allowed the students to escape.
Student Alec Calhoun told the News that the last thing he saw before jumping out the window was Librescu blocking the door.
Librescu was sent to a labor camp in Russia as a child and was saved by townspeople. In 1978, his family emigrated from Romania to Israel, and in 1986 Librescu, his wife and two sons moved to Virginia.
© NewsMax 2007. All rights reserved.
God bless the townspeople Russians who saved Librescu (from the Russians who captured him) as a child so that he could save our children today. God bless this man who was willing to put his life at risk to save his students. That's as far as a teacher can go.
Rest in peace.
JetSnake
04-17-07, 11:12 PM
Just a pet peeve of mine, but they are magazine, not clips.
DeePsix501
04-18-07, 12:38 AM
God bless that professor indeed, and the students who were killed.
As far as the argument earlier, it is funny how hindsight is always 20/20...
I can't imagine some young fellows in a school reacting the way we would as trained military.
Thats what I was thinking. Everyone here who has been so vile and venomous seems to also throw around alot of gun-speak and implied expertise on that kind of situation. I figure they all fancy themselves soldiers or have some real training that isn't just an imagined gun club fetish.
I mean sometimes I wonder if I could be beamed into a U-boat and suddenly find a white cap on my head and someone looking at me saying "Your orders Kaleun?", and manage to do it right. But then I spend alot of time playing out those scenarios in games.
The average person isn't a gun expert, doesn't know how long it takes to reload a gun, and heres the other thing. How do they know he doesn't have another gun but doesn't WANT to get stuck with 3 or 4 empty guns?
And heres the thing that nobody is mentioning. Where were the cops? If I'm sitting in a library and this is the 12th reincarnation of Columbine since the movie I'd be thinking "they have a plan, they'll be here any moment".
Seriously guys. Lay off the gun nut mentality. You aren't Dirty Harry, this isn't a movie, and this definitely isn't Tel Aviv so talking about car bombs and drive bys is a moot point.
robbo180265
04-18-07, 04:00 AM
I can't imagine some young fellows in a school reacting the way we would as trained military.
Thats what I was thinking. Everyone here who has been so vile and venomous seems to also throw around alot of gun-speak and implied expertise on that kind of situation. I figure they all fancy themselves soldiers or have some real training that isn't just an imagined gun club fetish.
I mean sometimes I wonder if I could be beamed into a U-boat and suddenly find a white cap on my head and someone looking at me saying "Your orders Kaleun?", and manage to do it right. But then I spend alot of time playing out those scenarios in games.
The average person isn't a gun expert, doesn't know how long it takes to reload a gun, and heres the other thing. How do they know he doesn't have another gun but doesn't WANT to get stuck with 3 or 4 empty guns?
And heres the thing that nobody is mentioning. Where were the cops? If I'm sitting in a library and this is the 12th reincarnation of Columbine since the movie I'd be thinking "they have a plan, they'll be here any moment".
Seriously guys. Lay off the gun nut mentality. You aren't Dirty Harry, this isn't a movie, and this definitely isn't Tel Aviv so talking about car bombs and drive bys is a moot point.
Couldn't have put it better.
And whilst we're at it, what if one of the suvivors of this shooting was a subsim fan? What if they fired up the internet and read this drivel? How the hell do you think it would make them feel?
Some of you guys need to look up the word "respect" in the dictionary.
micky1up
04-18-07, 04:17 AM
so much for land of the brave:down:
so much for land of the brave:down:
reading what most of these people have posted
I would say it's a world wide epidemic
True it seems that here in America...people believe they have more to loose and gain in life
But if you read back over all this there are still a few who will give and not take...
sure brought all kinds out didn't it
"Lets Roll"...?
It is very difficult to turn your mind from fright and flight to fight. Perhaps it is even impossible in the few seconds it takes to reload.
I think this is a case of them not clearly seeing the opportunity to to take the offensive, rather than cowardice.
Kapitan_Phillips
04-18-07, 09:50 AM
Let me say this:
YOU go in that situation and YOU see what you do.
It's a tendency for people to get up on a soap box from the comfort of their home and get judgemental on people in violent situations.
Fear does a lot of things to people, and unreasonable though it may be, I think we can't really understand what may have been going through their heads. I'd love to say I'd be a hero, but until I actually go and do it, it's best not to elevate myself and some great values over the real and the actual.
As someone would say "Let the one here without sin cast the first stone" :hmm:
Totally agree.
Have you guys ever thought that those students acted like they did because nobody ever told them how they should react in that situation? That nobody ever showed then how a gun works so they could recognize the opportunity when it presented itself?
We do see that the students learned to barracade themselves in their classroom. That might be pure intuition but it could just as likely be from discussions they've had in previous classes about previous shootings. Perhaps fighting back should also be talked about, like we're doing here, so when this happens again people don't have to figure the proper response out on their own.
Have you guys ever thought that those students acted like they did because nobody ever told them how they should react in that situation? That nobody ever showed then how a gun works so they could recognize the opportunity when it presented itself?
We do see that the students learned to barracade themselves in their classroom. That might be pure intuition but it could just as likely be from discussions they've had in previous classes about previous shootings. Perhaps fighting back should also be talked about, like we're doing here, so when this happens again people don't have to figure the proper response out on their own.
I'm not sure it would be propper to tell students that they are expected to charge down a gunman.
Ostfriese
04-18-07, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure it would be propper to tell students that they are expected to charge down a gunman.
And what if some of those you taught become gunmen themselves?
I'm not sure it would be proper to tell students that they are expected to charge down a gunman.
I didn't say "expected", although I guess "should" is close enough. However at this point that option isn't even being introduced to people and therefore a single killer can get away with lining up 30 students and executing them one by one.
How proper is that?
I can't imagine some young fellows in a school reacting the way we would as trained military.
Thats what I was thinking. Everyone here who has been so vile and venomous seems to also throw around alot of gun-speak and implied expertise on that kind of situation. I figure they all fancy themselves soldiers or have some real training that isn't just an imagined gun club fetish.
I mean sometimes I wonder if I could be beamed into a U-boat and suddenly find a white cap on my head and someone looking at me saying "Your orders Kaleun?", and manage to do it right. But then I spend alot of time playing out those scenarios in games.
The average person isn't a gun expert, doesn't know how long it takes to reload a gun, and heres the other thing. How do they know he doesn't have another gun but doesn't WANT to get stuck with 3 or 4 empty guns?
And heres the thing that nobody is mentioning. Where were the cops? If I'm sitting in a library and this is the 12th reincarnation of Columbine since the movie I'd be thinking "they have a plan, they'll be here any moment".
Seriously guys. Lay off the gun nut mentality. You aren't Dirty Harry, this isn't a movie, and this definitely isn't Tel Aviv so talking about car bombs and drive bys is a moot point.
This is pretty well said. Your last point made me think about another of our popular "hollywood myths" here at SUBSIM that seems to be prevailing: the heroes always win.
I can see what the students should have done but unlike them, I have never been shot at or seen anyone violently die, so I am hardly in a position to make judgments like the OP. I am however sure the experience they just lived through is penance enough for anything they could have done but failed to. That is, of course, if they could have done anything at all.
BTW, as it seems nobody has mentioned this yet, maybe I am wrong, but do you really need to load a magazine to capacity before you can start using it? I fail to really see what is to stop the gunman from stopping halfway and reloading if a pair of kids start to charge him from across the room...
HunterICX
04-18-07, 11:06 AM
Did you know the breaking point between standing their numb thinking ''what is happening , why is this happening?' why why why? to switcht those thoughts to ''I,m going to charge that sonnofabitch'' and get into action is really a big step for a human mind. or at least we think that is because its unnusual for the unprepared.
I guess the guys where in a state of Shock and couldnt move a finger, cant blame them. I would be doing the same thing if something that terrible is happening in front of my eyes
the same as if your on the edge of a Cliff going for a bungee jump
you have to make that ONE step to do it. but it takes Balls to do it.
Sailor Steve
04-18-07, 11:27 AM
On the one hand I agree with the thought that trying to do something is better than standing around hoping you aren't next. On the other I also agree that a typical student isn't going to have the experience to make that kind of decision. I don't fault them for not knowing what to do, and I don't fault them for not doing it.
I'm not sure it would be propper to tell students that they are expected to charge down a gunman.
And what if some of those you taught become gunmen themselves?
Or bombers? Or activists? Or politicians? Or the President?
I'm sorry, but that's one of the silliest hypotheticals I've ever read.
GlobalExplorer
04-18-07, 11:36 AM
They stood there and watched him reload...
2 count'em... 2 Male students stood and watched the Asian mass murderer reload ...
2
2 males... watched the dude empty his guns and begin to reload the last clip of the 9mm pistol
2 of 'em
2 males... maybe they should be called "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth'S"
2
I'm good at field striping then filling the mag on a 9mm hand gun... I can do it in 1 minute flat on a bad day...
So lets say this guys as good at weapons as I'am... I'll give him 30 secounds to eject and fill a 9mm clip
30 secounds ... 2 males watching ...just watching thats all...just watching
"Asian mass murderer" .. "Perfectly Urban Social Sissy Youth's" .. U-533, your thread is pissing me off ..
:down:
Well I may make people mad ... but
I will cast the first stone : sin or no sin
This Asian Mass Murderer was whacked out from the start...
2 times arrested for stalking two different women (Charges dropped because he was an alien)
His own professors wanted him out ( but they were told we can't do that it would not be HERE IT IS ... WAIT FOR IT.... "POLICTICALY CORRECT")
His parents sent word he should be sent back home because he has suicidal tendencies
He also turned in essays stating what his intentions were and how he would do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you wanna get mad at me?
Me of all people to be mad at?
Please...
Go ahead... no skin off my nose...
But look in the mirror and ask yourself if you dare to confront yourself
"Will my "Political Correctness" stop such things as this happening again?"
If you answer yes ... well good luck to ya...
P.S.
I did some checking with people who were there It took the ASIAN MASS MURDERER almost 3 minutes to reload one Magazine
so for 3 minutes he was busy stuffing rounds into his weapons Mag
3 minutes
2 males
Oh BTW it was more than 2 males according to sources it just seems these two wanted special attention... they have it...
I did some checking with people who were there It took the ASIAN MASS MURDERER almost 3 minutes to reload one Magazine
so for 3 minutes he was busy stuffing rounds into his weapons Mag
3 minutes
2 males
First of all after the fact analysis of the situation leads to a different level of awareness than you can have in the moment. Secondly someone above said "why couldn't he just stop halfway through reloading and reload the magazine?". Thirdly, as I said before, how do those two "males" know that he doesn't have another gun and that he isn't just being smart and reloading his gun so that he doesn't get caught without one?
You take the situation out of context, take the collected facts, and then replay it in your head and you get a different experience from theirs. You weren't there, you didn't watch him reload. They didn't get to watch 18 hours of news reports about what happened and boil down the information into minute detail on a message board and talk about how they would so have been the heroes.
Until you live out their experience and do it differently you have no base from which to make such declarations. I don't care if you own a gun, or go to a shooting range, or want to be a Marine. Until you save the day you can't be so certain.
Heibges
04-18-07, 07:25 PM
I was reading "Jarhead" recently, and in the book he wets his pants every time they come under fire, not just once like in the movie.
You have no idea what you would do if you were in that situation, unless you have been in it.
It's easy to say you would be a big tough guy.
Platapus
04-18-07, 07:47 PM
It's easy to say you would be a big tough guy.
Internet courage is something huh?
moose1am
04-18-07, 08:01 PM
The guy had clips of preloaded ammo in a vest he wore. Don't know where you get this BS that he sat there and hand loaded a empty clip.
It's easy to say you would be a big tough guy.
Internet courage is something huh?
Armchair heroes, my son :down:
Tchocky
04-18-07, 08:14 PM
U-533, why the hell do you keep saying the "ASIAN MASS MURDERER"? We know the guy's name. What does race matter here?
And don't dare chuck an anti-PC screed at this post
waste gate
04-18-07, 08:36 PM
U-533, why the hell do you keep saying the "ASIAN MASS MURDERER"? We know the guy's name. What does race matter here?
And don't dare chuck an anti-PC screed at this post
ANTI-PC SCREED
There ya go Tchocky:D
So nobody sees the value in pointing out the advantages of numbers in these situations? Does anyone at least tell our young people these days that allowing themselves to be herded like cattle to the slaughter is not a good thing to do?
Every species on this planet teaches it's young how to defend themselves in some way. We humans in our superior intellect and with the advantages of modern society backing us up have decided to make that lesson optional for our young, discouraged even and this is the price we pay for it.
Welcome to the human race. Anywhere you have groups of unprepared people, armed or not, you will see maniacs attempting to massacre them for any number of reasons including the little voices in their heads telling them to. Guns are ancillary to the problem. If we don't teach our young to defend themselves against the human wolves amongst us we're not only letting them down we're letting the whole human race down.
Tchocky
04-18-07, 10:08 PM
So nobody sees the value in pointing out the advantages of numbers in these situations? Does anyone at least tell our young people these days that allowing themselves to be herded like cattle to the slaughter is not a good thing to do? What is good advice in this situation? People are stuffed to the gills with fear, I don't support making that worse by advising kids what to do when they are being shot in a classroom. No matter how many of them there are, this kind of thing doesnt happen often enough for that kind of abuse.
Every species on this planet teaches it's young how to defend themselves in some way. We humans in our superior intellect and with the advantages of modern society backing us up have decided to make that lesson optional for our young, discouraged even and this is the price we pay for it. This is not the price we pay for leading peaceful lives, lives without mandatory self-defence training. I like living in a world where I don't need to know how to incapacitate someone with a couple of guns. I could do a decent amount of damage, provided I wasnt paralysed with fear, and going by the last time I had a gun pointed at me, I'm not too hopeful. But that's OK, I've never needed to physically subdue someone to save myself harm.
Welcome to the human race. Anywhere you have groups of unprepared people, armed or not, you will see maniacs attempting to massacre them for any number of reasons including the little voices in their heads telling them to. Guns are ancillary to the problem. If we don't teach our young to defend themselves against the human wolves amongst us we're not only letting them down we're letting the whole human race down. Sorry man, I won't be turning my kids into shaking terrified black belts. Of course there will always be maniacs and mental illness, that's humanity. But I couldnt run the risk of having anyone end up like this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=503616&postcount=22)
I'll just have to hope that I'm in the 99.999etc% of people that don't have to deal with a hostage situation
Tchocky I guess it's your choice if you want be a potential victim all your entire life but don't demand that we institutionalize it. This utopia of peaceful ignorant existance you're talking about does not and has never existed in the entire time man has been on this planet, so you might as well demand to live in a world where the sky is always chartreuse and it rains jelly donuts, it just ain't gonna happen.
What i'm talking about is teaching our young to face their fears and maybe even overcome them. Not to be moulded by society into some shaking, terrified mound of meat that has no responsibility at all for it's own survival and the welfare of it's felllows. I'm not talking about martial arts or weapons training either although they do help to instill confidence and discipline, but rather the concept that they can be more than sheep scared of their own shadow.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
Tchocky
04-19-07, 12:05 AM
Tchocky I guess it's your choice if you want be a potential victim all your entire life but don't demand that we institutionalize it.You're absolutely right. I am going to be a potential victim all my life. As will you. As will everyone on this planet, until we can start messing around with the future. I demanded nothing, I don't know where you're getting that from. Potential victim......thats utterly meaningless.
This utopia of peaceful ignorant existance you're talking about does not and has never existed in the entire time man has been on this planet, so you might as well demand to live in a world where the sky is always chartreuse and it rains jelly donuts, it just ain't gonna happen. I know it doesn't exist. I also didn't mention any sort of utopia. I said that I like not having to know how to deal with someone shooting up my place of work with two guns. This is indicative of the rather peaceful life I'm living these days. I don't see where you got utopia out of that. Don't say that I'm talking about something when I'm not. It doesnt help communication, and it's kind of insulting.
Peaceful ignorant utopia....did you see the part when I mentioned having a gun pointed at me?
What i'm talking about is teaching our young to face their fears and maybe even overcome them. Not to be moulded by society into some shaking, terrified mound of meat that has no responsibility at all for it's own survival and the welfare of it's felllows. I'm not talking about martial arts or weapons training either although they do help to instill confidence and discipline, but rather the concept that they can be more than sheep scared of their own shadow.
I don't think that's a bad thing. Facing this particular fear isn't something I need to do. And certainly nothing an 18-year old needs to do. The likelihood of being a victim is low, and not worth the fear that this teaching would leave.
Given where this conversation is coming from, and the thread subject...what form would this training take? I asked, but you skipped it. I'll give it a go...
How would you feel if in high school you were taught how to tackle a fellow student who was shooting up the classroom? How would you feel teaching this?
This is nothing but scaring the hell out of young people, and being young is hard enough. I hear stories of soldiers breaking down on first exposure to combat situations. And thats after months of training. High-school kids? no thanks
Even if they were collected enough to try to bring down the shooter, there's a chance it would make things worse.
I wouldnt want kids treating schools like warzones.
Does anyone at least tell our young people these days that allowing themselves to be herded like cattle to the slaughter is not a good thing to do? I don't know what it's like to be 18, and forced at gunpoint to hit the floor. I'll take a massive leap and assume you don't either. I had a gun pointed at me very briefly at age 17, and it scared the hell out of me. i would have done anything that that soldier had told me to
I wouldnt want kids treating schools like warzones.
You're talking to a guy who as a kid lived through air raid drills in school and constant reminders of impending global thermonuclear war which is far more scary imo. My generation managed to handle the fear these realities caused well enough, so why do you think this generation cannot?
As for soldiers responses to war. No training ever concieved completely prepares everyone for the rigours of combat. That certainly is not an excuse to abandon training altogether. All it would do is turn a few who break into many.
I apologize if i came off as insulting, that was not my intention, but I do see a big downside to telling kids, either directly or by discouraging open discussion of such incidents, that they are powerless if such a thing happens to them.
After all there isn't a student or teacher in the country right now who isn't aware of this incident or the ones previous, so any fear that exists is already there. Teaching some basic skills or at least discussing the options available is not going to increase it.
Tchocky
04-19-07, 01:31 AM
I wouldnt want kids treating schools like warzones. You're talking to a guy who as a kid lived through air raid drills in school and constant reminders of impending global thermonuclear war which is far more scary imo. My generation managed to handle the fear these realities caused well enough, so why do you think this generation cannot?I don't know. Isn't "communist" still a dirty word in the US? cant think of anything offhand, and I don't know enough about that generation to judge, so *skip*
As for soldiers responses to war. No training ever concieved completely prepares everyone for the rigours of combat. That certainly is not an excuse to abandon training altogether. All it would do is turn a few who break into many.
I apologize if i came off as insulting, that was not my intention, but I do see a big downside to telling kids, either directly or by discouraging open discussion of such incidents, that they are powerless if such a thing happens to them.You brought up United 93, those passengers had never discussed what they would do in such a situation. (I think thats a fair assumption)
I don't believe that students in VTech did not act because they didnt realise that they could, or hadn't been told that they couldn't. I don't think a training session or a discussion would make that difference. The lack of action I think was due to the dead bodies/blood/violence/murder of friends/girlfriends/boyfriends. And sheer bloody shock. This has been done to death on this thread.
I don't see a downside, really. Things like VTech, in a wide view, don't happen too often. Let kids be kids, not child bodyguards/cops/soldiers.
After all there isn't a student or teacher in the country right now who isn't aware of this incident or the ones previous, so any fear that exists is already there.
Teaching some basic skills or at least discussing the options available is not going to increase it. The present fear will subside, just like it did after Columbine. Just like it did here (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.hate.crimes/)
Won't go away, but it will subside.
If you want to keep kids paranoid and terrified of any child who's slightly different...which I honestly believe would be the end result, then go ahead
Have you guys ever thought that those students acted like they did because nobody ever told them how they should react in that situation? That nobody ever showed then how a gun works so they could recognize the opportunity when it presented itself? I can't see that as anything but damaging. I wouldnt teach a child how to use a gun. Would you?
Paranoid and terrified of difference - here's a very mild example from this very forum. Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=503983&postcount=38)
I don't know fatty at all, but look - "pale skin", "kept to themselves" "black clothes"
He just described me. Maybe it's the bone-crushing visual homogeneity of American campuses, I stick out here like a sore thumb, whereas I blend right in in Ireland :). If you read this, fatty, no offence intended. I really hope that where you say "these characters" you mean video game addicts, and not school shooting suspects.
Of course if the students at VTech had weapons training and CCP's this tragedy could have been averted. Of course if every high school student knew how to disarm a shooter things may be different, either better or worse. But I'd rather have the students not worrying if they'll live through lunch. Adolescence has enough pressure without planning for a school shooting.
Tchocky
04-19-07, 02:35 AM
Nice to see the country going satisfyingly nuts - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OJ70L01&show_article=1
Sorry man, I won't be turning my kids into shaking terrified black belts.
Just an aside, real martial arts training is supposed to do the opposite, instill self confidence and also (and this is in conjunction with other education) judgement ... so you would know to stay calm and maybe even know when not fighting back is the best option.
DeePsix501
04-19-07, 03:20 AM
He sent a "manifesto" to the media between the two attacks in Virgina:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1pj9i3hgRg
Look at the pitches of him wearing the tan vest and brandishing the dual pistols - that is supposdly (I think) what he wore when he killed people. You can see the madness in his eyes. I try and picture myself sitting in my Business Calc class half asleep at 9am from a long sunday night - when he busts in suddenly, BAM shoots my professor, the girl next to me, the guy infront of me, then points the gun at me. I dont know what I would be thinking. I think that I would have been so shocked at the sight of my dead friends and the gore that is suddenly presented in this lazy morning classroom. It's not that I havent dealt with gore before, it is just the abrutness of it. I dont know if I would have been capable to react in time. It's easy for me to say as an armchair hero I would sack the guy and pummel him, but the shock of it, and the delay that would have caused in my reaction time of getting out of my seat, hopping over rows of chairs and then attacking him or even the flight response of B lining it for the door would simply be to much.
I did some checking with people who were there It took the ASIAN MASS MURDERER almost 3 minutes to reload one Magazine
so for 3 minutes he was busy stuffing rounds into his weapons Mag
3 minutes
2 males
First of all after the fact analysis of the situation leads to a different level of awareness than you can have in the moment. Secondly someone above said "why couldn't he just stop halfway through reloading and reload the magazine?". Thirdly, as I said before, how do those two "males" know that he doesn't have another gun and that he isn't just being smart and reloading his gun so that he doesn't get caught without one?
You take the situation out of context, take the collected facts, and then replay it in your head and you get a different experience from theirs. You weren't there, you didn't watch him reload. They didn't get to watch 18 hours of news reports about what happened and boil down the information into minute detail on a message board and talk about how they would so have been the heroes.
Until you live out their experience and do it differently you have no base from which to make such declarations. I don't care if you own a gun, or go to a shooting range, or want to be a Marine. Until you save the day you can't be so certain.
AS I have stated before
I have been there in that type of life and death situation.
Don't tell me what I would have done...
I was able to overcome... and I had no military training before hand.
The guy had clips of preloaded ammo in a vest he wore. Don't know where you get this BS that he sat there and hand loaded a empty clip.
I don't know where your getting your info but ...
2 male eye witnesses said they watched him take the mag from the 9mm put the 9mm under his arm and start reaching into his pocket digging single bullets out and stuffing them into the mag....
But thats ok I understand your under stress ... you go ahead and believe what you need to believe...:roll:
P.S. they also said he was shaking so bad he kept dropping the rounds and reaching down to pick them up
Tchocky
04-19-07, 04:46 AM
AS I have stated before
I have been there in that type of life and death situation.
Don't tell me what I would have done...
I was able to overcome... and I had no military training before hand.
Do you want to go into details?
AS I have stated before
I have been there in that type of life and death situation.
Don't tell me what I would have done...
I was able to overcome... and I had no military training before hand.
Enlighten me please. Tell me of your heroics. Don't reference your credentials without producing them.
robbo180265
04-19-07, 05:50 AM
AS I have stated before
I have been there in that type of life and death situation.
Don't tell me what I would have done...
I was able to overcome... and I had no military training before hand.
Probably done loads........on his computer:roll:
Sailor Steve
04-19-07, 11:20 AM
Probably done loads........on his computer:roll:
Do direct personal insults really help? Unless you know otherwise you're not helping the discussion at all.
GlobalExplorer
04-19-07, 12:06 PM
I think U-533 doesn't get it. No one is saying that the people on United 93 were not heroes - they did the right thing. It's just downright unbearable to see him call scared victims "pussies" or how he is trying to make a point by stressing the mass murderer was asian.
JetSnake
04-19-07, 12:27 PM
Nice to see the country going satisfyingly nuts - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OJ70L01&show_article=1
Wow. Just wow. That is the country going satisfyingly nuts, some students comments? Are you a journalist in real life, because you put as much thought into that post as most headlines that I see in the media. These things happen after shocking events, probably in the old ruins of europe as well.
Nightmare
04-19-07, 01:14 PM
Nice to see the country going satisfyingly nuts - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OJ70L01&show_article=1
Wow. Just wow. That is the country going satisfyingly nuts, some students comments? Are you a journalist in real life, because you put as much thought into that post as most headlines that I see in the media. These things happen after shocking events, probably in the old ruins of europe as well.
I'm not one who normally posts in this type of thread but I thought I'd add my 2 cents...
I think I attribute this to a lot of people in the Western World have a false sense of security that nothing bad will happen to any of us. We read and hear about people dying in Iraq on a daily basis, genocide committed in Africa, or any other bombings, killing and tragedy that goes on in the world on any given day. However it really doesn’t affect us in any way, it just some text we read in a paper or on a website or we hear it on our news broadcast.
It’s the “It won’t happen to me,” or the “Bad things can’t happen here” mentality that a people tell themselves that builds up a sense of security that really isn’t there. In my opinion, this is why we see the reaction from the article Tchocky posted. That false sense of security has been shattered so now people are afraid. When people are scared they tend to not be rational. This (again, in my opinion) is why we saw so much violence against kids that wore trench coats after Columbine, or people from the Middle East after September 11th. Now it’s just going to be that quiet kid in class that tends to keep to himself (doesn’t matter if he’s shy or not, or if they are just the quiet type). It’s just now the fact that the person responsible for this latest tragedy was a “quiet loner” and now anybody like that should be watched or arrested because they might be dangerous.
The truth of the matter is any of us could die tomorrow. It doesn’t matter if it’s a madman with guns on a killing rampage or if I get hit by a bus or if I get struck my lightning. None of us are guaranteed a tomorrow, and I feel a quote I once heard applies here (I can't remember the source, so please excuse that), “A life lived in fear is a life half lived.”
GlobalExplorer
04-19-07, 01:28 PM
The truth of the matter is any of us could die tomorrow.
Thanks for reminding me of that. :-?
But yes, you're right.
I can't see that as anything but damaging. I wouldnt teach a child how to use a gun. Would you?
Sure, why not? You ask that like i'm advocating teaching them how to smoke crack. Knowledge of firearms isn't some black art that people have to be protected from. Teaching children how to handle firearms has been shown to reduce accidental shootings. Heck even the Boy Scouts teach gun handling and safety for their marksmanship merit badge program like since forever. Tell me again who's being paranoid and terrified of difference?
Paranoid and terrified of difference - here's a very mild example from this very forum. Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=503983&postcount=38)
I don't know fatty at all, but look - "pale skin", "kept to themselves" "black clothes"
He just described me. Maybe it's the bone-crushing visual homogeneity of American campuses, I stick out here like a sore thumb, whereas I blend right in in Ireland :). If you read this, fatty, no offence intended. I really hope that where you say "these characters" you mean video game addicts, and not school shooting suspects.
Whether he does nor not you must admit there aren't too many tanned, gregarious, and colorfully dressed school shooters out there.
Of course if the students at VTech had weapons training and CCP's this tragedy could have been averted. Of course if every high school student knew how to disarm a shooter things may be different, either better or worse. But I'd rather have the students not worrying if they'll live through lunch. Adolescence has enough pressure without planning for a school shooting.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. The worry is there whether you talk about it or not and school shootings aren't the only times in a kids life they might have to defend themselves. Human beings are not sheep and they shouldn't be trained as such.
robbo180265
04-19-07, 03:03 PM
Probably done loads........on his computer:roll:
Do direct personal insults really help? Unless you know otherwise you're not helping the discussion at all.
You're right Steve and I apologise for it, however I do think that Nightmare has it spot on and we could do a lot worse than read and digest what he's written, and stop trying to lay the blame with the poor students who were probably frozen with fear.
Do Schools and Univesities in America have metal detectors fitted? It seems the obvious answer to this problem, I mean I doubt Americans as a whole will ever want to give up their guns (and I'm not getting into that argument - It's your country you do what you want) So a way is needed to
A: Stop nutters getting weapons
b: Stop nutters killing people with weapons
I'm just glad that we don't have this problem to this degree over here.
Paranoid and terrified of difference - here's a very mild example from this very forum. Here
I don't know fatty at all, but look - "pale skin", "kept to themselves" "black clothes"
He just described me. Maybe it's the bone-crushing visual homogeneity of American campuses, I stick out here like a sore thumb, whereas I blend right in in Ireland . If you read this, fatty, no offence intended. I really hope that where you say "these characters" you mean video game addicts, and not school shooting suspects.
Yes sir, no offence taken and none to you either. That was what I meant.
It's a problem behind the idea of trying to identify "warning signs" and intervene before these tragedies occur. There is a gentleman in my Chinese class who could pass for the shooter's twin (in appearance and demeanour only, of course). And as you say I described you without even knowing you. Yet I seriously doubt you'll be involved in anything like this, and from what I know of the other guy I can say the same for him. And as much as I would have loved to have thrown those stinky kids out of my store on the grounds of being potential school shooters, I don't really want to see our society take those kinds of steps backwards.
As I said, some can handle it. Some handle it but dress up weird and stop taking showers, and that's cool I guess. And then some cannot handle it at all :nope:
Sorry that this is so OT.
Takeda Shingen
04-19-07, 03:55 PM
The thread rambles, and we are insulting each other. It is time for this to go bye-bye.
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