So whats wrong with escorts? They cant find me not matter what

[crazypete]

I can be blazing along at full speed ahead in the middle of a convoy at periscope depth in broad daylight in calm seas with the scope all the way up, loading torpedoes and they simply dont hear me! The entire time I have been playing, I've only been sunk twice by escorts. Many times by aircraft and every time I go for a surface duel with a DD but once I dive, if they dont nab me on the first fullspeed pass, I'm gone.

What gives?

Do I need to sit back with this game and wait for the first user realism pack?

[AVGWarhawk]

I run into a large array of DD and reaction of the DD. Some DD find me like I have my lights on waving white flags screaming at them with a loud speaker. Sometimes, like last night, they are next to me, looking at me in full regalia but motor on by like I was a fishing boat. I seem to be getting a mixed bag of DD reaction. I can not put my finger on it but it is certainly odd. Wait for 1.2 patch to get on the modders hard drive. I'm sure someone will beef up the DD.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

I run into a large array of DD and reaction of the DD. Some DD find me like I have my lights on waving white flags screaming at them with a loud speaker. Sometimes, like last night, they are next to me, looking at me in full regalia but motor on by like I was a fishing boat. I seem to be getting a mixed bag of DD reaction. I can not put my finger on it but it is certainly odd. Wait for 1.2 patch to get on the modders hard drive. I'm sure someone will beef up the DD.

I can be running at 2knts on silent running, and they seem to home in on me like bees returning to the nest.

[AVGWarhawk]

Like I said, FBT, it is a mixed bag. Sometimes they are just killers and other times it is like a cruise ship in the Bahamas:doh:

[crazypete]

and while we are on the subject of inconsistency...

I put 5...5!!....fish into a medium composite and it just kept on bobbling low in the water. I shot it front, back , underneath, at the waterline, in the stern. Then the game crashed so I didnt even get to ultimately sink it. It must have had a cargo of cork!

Meanwhile....

I put 1 fish into a modern euro superiner and it sank like a rock

[AVGWarhawk]

No doubt there are some inconsistancies but 99% of the time, my experience with the inconsistancies have been very rare. My targets go down and the DD 99% of the time are aggressive. I got my first 1% stupid DD last night. I have had only one merchant with five tin fish hits that would not go down. I had to finish it off with the cannon.

[SteamWake]

Strange,

I ran accross a convoy last night. It must have been a very high priority as it was escorted by no less than 6 ships.

I laid in wait when by accident (duh !) I hit full speed ahead (had speed telegraph in speed mode vs 1/3 full etc and wanted to back up a bit). Anyhow as soon as the words "New speed 23 knots" came out of the WO's mouth all the escorts on my side of the convoy turned for me and hit flank speed.... Dident take them long to find me and finish me off.

Thank goodness I had a save game as I refuse to die to stupid interface mistakes.

I reloaded and laid in wait. Eventually lined up a Huge liner (14k tons) and sent her to the bottom. Well let me tell you I was ready for it. As soon as the first fish hit I crash dived and changed course.

Well I had kicked the hornets nest all 6 destroyers closed in on my location and crapped all around me. First time Ive seen this. It was like rush hour. They were scooting, coasting, dc'ing. A regular cluster muck.

Only by luck, and my superior skill :-? we avoided being crushed.

[Snuffy]

Last night I seemed to have honey on my arse .... I had 3 DD coming for blood.

They circled my position as I tried creeping along at 1/3 and silent. I dropped to 35m, and they were droppin DCs at 15m. It was a beautiful thing.

After about 2 hours of chasing and trying to tag me, they gave up and headed back to their convoy.

[Bill Nichols]

I can be blazing along at full speed ahead in the middle of a convoy at periscope depth in broad daylight in calm seas with the scope all the way up, loading torpedoes and they simply dont hear me! The entire time I have been playing, I've only been sunk twice by escorts. Many times by aircraft and every time I go for a surface duel with a DD but once I dive, if they dont nab me on the first fullspeed pass, I'm gone.

What gives?

Do I need to sit back with this game and wait for the first user realism pack?

My experience (little tho it is): Inside the convoy I'm pretty safe, but as soon as I go outside of it, the DDs are on me like fleas on a dog.

[AVGWarhawk]

From my experience with exception of the 'Love Boat' coming by me last night and did not take notice, the DD are not bad. I think we just might be used to the GWX hounds as compared to the hounds of SH4 sniffing you out.

[TheSatyr]

Seems realistic enough to me. In R/L most Japanese escort captains took their jobs seriously but a few seemed to have an "It's somebody elses problem" mentality about it.

You do read about the more laickadasical escort commanders in some of the sub books. Those "How did that DD/DE NOT see me?" moments.

[crazypete]

Me and my big mouth!

I ran across the carrier battle group from hell last night. So I get the surface ship spotted message and go up to have a look to find in horror that there are 3 destroyers about 2000 m off the starboard bow. I hit dive then do some deckgun action waiting for the sub to go down and get a lucky shot and it breaks the middle DD in half (my first halfie!!). I save....cause why not.

Then it seems the other 2 cant see me. more disappointment.

Well, it seems these 3 were the vanguard to a carrier battle group. From that point on, no matter how I tried to escape (and the CBG was BVR mind you), an aircraft would always spot me then 3 DD's would show up from over the horizon and smoke me. These guys had sonar and used it vigourously, they dropped depth charges, they took turns. They ran a train on me.

REAL AI! Carrier airpower! Airdropped depth charges! The beauty of it all! Bravo! Bravo! I feel like I'm actually in the war now!

[Faamecanic]

Me and my big mouth!

I ran across the carrier battle group from hell last night. So I get the surface ship spotted message and go up to have a look to find in horror that there are 3 destroyers about 2000 m off the starboard bow. I hit dive then do some deckgun action waiting for the sub to go down and get a lucky shot and it breaks the middle DD in half (my first halfie!!). I save....cause why not.

Then it seems the other 2 cant see me. more disappointment.

Well, it seems these 3 were the vanguard to a carrier battle group. From that point on, no matter how I tried to escape (and the CBG was BVR mind you), an aircraft would always spot me then 3 DD's would show up from over the horizon and smoke me. These guys had sonar and used it vigourously, they dropped depth charges, they took turns. They ran a train on me.

REAL AI! Carrier airpower! Airdropped depth charges! The beauty of it all! Bravo! Bravo! I feel like I'm actually in the war now!


I have noticed most Convoy Escorts are VERY poor if they even try and search at all. Most of the time they STOP with the convoy (or slow down to 2 kts). Only a FEW times (like 3 or so) have they ever come after me.

Now escorts with BATTLE groups.... they are DEADLY! Almost always find me and nuke me out of the water.

[OddjobXL]

This does strike me as fairly realistic. You do read about submarine captains surfacing in the middle of convoys and engaging in surface attacks until the escorts can get in and come after them. I'd never try that in SH3 GWX! Every single escort seems deadly competant. It definitely makes for a much more challenging engagement but, for my tastes at least, mixing it up a bit works better.

Last night, for example, I was trying to pick off a stricken ship after the merchant escorts finally got bored of looking for me and hauled off. But my air and battery were low. I was down to one torpedo which I wanted to save for emergencies. Came down to a dawn deckgun attack for me. Now the destroyers were still visible on the horizon chasing after the merchant convoy of theirs. In SH3 I might have just cut my losses and gone home rather than risking the wrath of those evil psychic bastards. In SH4, I'm thinking I might just roll the dice! And rolling the dice is always more fun than cutting your losses. That's why Vegas works.

So I come up and have the lads plink away on the waterline. We're orbiting around the freighter at a low speed. I wanted to hit as many different compartments as I could in order to flood her faster. Eventually I start hearing shells wizzing past and distant cannons firing that don't belong to me. Well, I've read about sub captains taunting gunners by "shaking a tail feather" (gunners would commonly aim, evidently, at the most visible part of a ship in low light which would often be the phosphorescent wake - though I doubt this is modelled in the AI) so I did the same. Put them on a 180 bearing and zigzagged. They couldn't hit me but they were getting closer. Finally my guys cheered! Enemy unit destroyed! The merchant was sinking.

We crashdived below the thermal layer, snaked our way out of the old position while silent running, and then played dead. At least I had air now!

I will say this, though, the convoys slowing down to a crawl or stopping when a ship is damaged is annoying. It does take alot of fun out of an engagement and needs to be fixed. The reason I was so low on air and batteries is because I was trying to wait for the other ships to leave the area before I went after my victim. And they wouldn't even move for the longest time. Then they putted away at 2 knots.

[AhhhFresh]

I have noticed most Convoy Escorts are VERY poor if they even try and search at all. Most of the time they STOP with the convoy (or slow down to 2 kts). Only a FEW times (like 3 or so) have they ever come after me.

Now escorts with BATTLE groups.... they are DEADLY! Almost always find me and nuke me out of the water. I've experienced incredible and inept escorts in both task forces and convoys, and I don't think that's the issue. When they slow down to 2 knts they're actually not being dumb... they're listening for you and communicating with each other. If they're going fast they can't use their sonar effectively because of their own prop noise. What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search. I think if they see your scope or your sub through the water or make a positive sonar contact then they are quite good and very challenging to evade... but if you fire from inside the convoy, well away from the escorts, and go deep before they know what's going on... then they aren't going to vector in and search so they seem incompetent.

[RypeL]

I dont know yet if its till the case with 1.2 but in 1.1 i think i you could "fix" the convois not moving problem by saving and reloading. Somehow after reloading they start moving again. At least thats what happened to me.

[SteamWake]

What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search.

Wanna bet ? Try this sit outside a convoy and hit full ahead for a few moments while at perisope depth then cut the engines. If you have good escorts around they will immediatly turn for you.

The issue seems to be if you are in the "middle" of the convoy its very hard to "hear" you admist all the other noise. If I recall correctly this was actually a viable tactic.

[AhhhFresh]

What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search.
Wanna bet ? Try this sit outside a convoy and hit full ahead for a few moments while at perisope depth then cut the engines. If you have good escorts around they will immediatly turn for you.

The issue seems to be if you are in the "middle" of the convoy its very hard to "hear" you admist all the other noise. If I recall correctly this was actually a viable tactic. I agree that that will happen if you make a lot of noise and agree that being inside a convoy to mask your noise is a viable IRL tactic. What I'm saying if the DD's don't see or hear you, but you blow up some ships so they know you're out there... they start their search from wherever they happen to be, which may or may not be realistic... but I thought they were supposed to guess where you fired from and move to pen you in, which I don't see happening.

[OddjobXL]

It could be that they can't spot torpedo wakes? Or maybe it depends on lighting conditions and crew quality? If they don't know where you fired from "guessing" might be hard and they'll just look around where they happen to be. I do agree that the behavior I've seen from some escorts (and I probably haven't had as many missions as most folks here so WMMV) does seem to be them deliberately slowing down or even stopping to listen. That doesn't explain why the merchants they're guarding also slow down and sit around. I'm trying to remember what I've read about IJN convoy tactics and it seems that they usually try to run for it leaving one or two escorts behind to pin the sub down and rescue survivors.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have noticed most Convoy Escorts are VERY poor if they even try and search at all. Most of the time they STOP with the convoy (or slow down to 2 kts). Only a FEW times (like 3 or so) have they ever come after me.

Now escorts with BATTLE groups.... they are DEADLY! Almost always find me and nuke me out of the water. I've experienced incredible and inept escorts in both task forces and convoys, and I don't think that's the issue. When they slow down to 2 knts they're actually not being dumb... they're listening for you and communicating with each other. If they're going fast they can't use their sonar effectively because of their own prop noise. What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search. I think if they see your scope or your sub through the water or make a positive sonar contact then they are quite good and very challenging to evade... but if you fire from inside the convoy, well away from the escorts, and go deep before they know what's going on... then they aren't going to vector in and search so they seem incompetent.

Pretty good assessment here. Also, when they spot your torps and slow down, this messes up your solution something bad:nope:. Your now solution for 10 kts just dropped to 5 kts and the solution is blown.

[crazypete]

I dont see the benefit of slowing down the convoy....

I just sit there and say....ummm...ok and torpedo the sitting duck escorts and a few transports, zoom into the midst of the convoy while reloading and taking potshots at the remaining sitting ducks.

Even if they can now magically hear me, they usually dont come after me.

[AhhhFresh]

That doesn't explain why the merchants they're guarding also slow down and sit around. I'm trying to remember what I've read about IJN convoy tactics and it seems that they usually try to run for it leaving one or two escorts behind to pin the sub down and rescue survivors. Oddly enough, I saw the turn and run + couple of escorts to pin down tactic from a monster task force... exactly when I'd think they would stop and guard their wounded BB's and pound me into oblivion with their 6 or 8 DD's (can't recall)... instead they motored off in fear of a single submarine at max speed, leaving one Yamamoto dead in the water and another limping along at 2 knts with no protection. When the DD's sent after me couldn't find me they gave up and went back to the convoy.

[AVGWarhawk]

I dont see the benefit of slowing down the convoy....

I just sit there and say....ummm...ok and torpedo the sitting duck escorts and a few transports, zoom into the midst of the convoy while reloading and taking potshots at the remaining sitting ducks.

Even if they can now magically hear me, they usually dont come after me.

First benefit, the four torpedeos looking for vessels that are doing 10 kts are coming at vessels now going slower then 10 kts. All four have a high probability of missing the intended target. Second benefit, DD can manuever better and listen for you as well. I have only seen the dumb DD once. The rest have been very good. It is a mixed bag of what you are going to get.

[CCIP]

Can't comment on the issue - soon as I got the patch, I reinstalled nvdrifter's harder escorts mod and changed all escort AI skill levels to at least competent. :p All in all, no complaints there...

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll grab that one after some vanilla play first:yep:. Right now just the green color keys and less radio traffic mod.

[OddjobXL]

First benefit, the four torpedeos looking for vessels that are doing 10 kts are coming at vessels now going slower then 10 kts. All four have a high probability of missing the intended target. Second benefit, DD can manuever better and listen for you as well. I have only seen the dumb DD once. The rest have been very good. It is a mixed bag of what you are going to get.

I've seen that mixed bag of yours too and I like it that way. Having every encounter be a huge waiting game that drags out can get old but facing only half-hearted defenders takes far too much of that good "Das Boot" tension out of the encounter. Not knowing which you'll get spices up the encounters. It tempts you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't dare if every single escort captain is uber elite. That uncertainty is part of the fun. Do I, don't I?

However, I think merchant ships slowing in a convoy after an attack doesn't jibe with reality. It's also not that great a tactic. These guys don't know where the subs are, how many subs there are, whether there might be other hostile assets incoming as called by the subs - maybe even more subs in distant waters. You want to get the chickens out of the fox coop as fast as possible. Imagine explaining to a court-martial panel that you wanted your dependant merchants to slow down and linger in a kill zone so you could hear where the subs are hiding...

[BlackSpot]

Some years ago I vaugely remember reading about the difference between Japanese escort tactics and the allied Atlantic ones. IIRC, the japanese did not patrol though the convoy lanes. ie. between the merchants but the allies did. Can anyone clarify? :D

[AVGWarhawk]

In 1942 and early 1943, US submarines played little threat to Japanese ships, whether warships or merchant ships. They were initially hampered by poor torpedoes, which often failed to detonate on impact, ran too deep, or even ran wild. As the US submarine menace was slight in the beginning, Japanese commanders became complacent and as a result did not invest heavily into ASW measures or upgrade their convoy protection to any degree to what the Allies in the Atlantic did. Often encouraged by the Japanese not placing a high priority on the Allied submarine threat, US skippers were relatively complacent and docile compared to their German counterparts, who understod the "life and death" urgency in the Atlantic.

Japanese antisubmarine forces consisted mainly of their destroyers, with sonar and depth charges. However, Japanese destroyer design emphasized surface nightfighting and torpedo delivery over anti-submarine duties. By the time they finally developed a destroyer escorts which was more economical and better suited to convoy protection, it was too late to save their shipping lanes. Late in the war, the Japanese Army and Navy used Magnetic Anomaly Detector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_Anomaly_Detector) MAD) gear in aircraft to locate shallow submerged submarines. The Japanese Army also developed two small aircraft carriers and Ka-1 autogyro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro) aircraft for use in an antisubmarine warfare role.
The Japanese depth charge attacks by its surface forces initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. fleet submarines. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally escape destruction, sometimes using temperature gradients (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient) (thermoclines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocline)). Additionally, IJN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Navy) doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) emphasised fleet action, not convoy protection, so the best ships and crews went elsewhere.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare#_note-1) Moreover, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware U.S. submarines could dive below 150 feet (45m). Unfortunately, this deficiency was revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May), and soon enemy depth charges were set to explode as deep as 250 feet (76m). Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_A._Lockwood), COMSUBPAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Navy_slang), later estimated May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare#_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare#_note-3)
Much later in the war, active and passive sonobuoys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonobuoy) were developed for aircraft use.



Found a Wikipedia. ASW not quite as tough as the Atlantic boys. Maybe we are just so used to having our butts hammered in the Atlantic that we think we should be having our butts hammered in the Pacific as well.

[OddjobXL]

For those who can read Japanese there might be something useful on Museum of Wartime Japanese Merchant Ships (http://www.aa.cyberhome.ne.jp/~museum/index.htm). Could have something on actual IJN convoy tactics. Unfortunately, I don't read Japanese. I'll crack a few books when I get home and see what I can find.

[Faamecanic]

I have noticed most Convoy Escorts are VERY poor if they even try and search at all. Most of the time they STOP with the convoy (or slow down to 2 kts). Only a FEW times (like 3 or so) have they ever come after me.

Now escorts with BATTLE groups.... they are DEADLY! Almost always find me and nuke me out of the water. I've experienced incredible and inept escorts in both task forces and convoys, and I don't think that's the issue. When they slow down to 2 knts they're actually not being dumb... they're listening for you and communicating with each other. If they're going fast they can't use their sonar effectively because of their own prop noise. What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search. I think if they see your scope or your sub through the water or make a positive sonar contact then they are quite good and very challenging to evade... but if you fire from inside the convoy, well away from the escorts, and go deep before they know what's going on... then they aren't going to vector in and search so they seem incompetent.

And I would buy that, except for the fact Im motoring around at 1/3 or 2/3 speed, loading torpedos, and shooting merchants like fish in a barrel. Making enough noise for Tojo to here me back in Japan.

Only 2 or 3 times have I ever had a DD come screaming at me while Im doing this. Most of the time they just sit there.

Now this was with 1.1 and my orignal load. I have since uninstalled and reinstalled as I have heard that some people suspect that they had a bad install (I doubt it but its worth a try). I also applied 1.2 last night but only encountered 1 merchant vessal before I had to shut down. I will be curious to see if the reload and/or patch gives me aggressive DD's now...

[kakemann]

Can't comment on the issue - soon as I got the patch, I reinstalled nvdrifter's harder escorts mod and changed all escort AI skill levels to at least competent. :p All in all, no complaints there...
I had little luck with this one, edited myself two lines. And that was all it took to fix the poor DD's performance:

Go to your Ubisoft folder. Go to:

Data/Cfg/Sim.cfg

edit this file with notepad. If you are running WinVista you might have to copy the file to he desktop or something because of edit file permission settings.

Go to this part of the file:

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0],

Change Sensivity to 0.08 (forexample), and Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation to 2.0.

Save and overwrite the old file. Be sure to take backup!

The DD's will hear you with their hydrophones much better now, and the thermal layer will give you a little less protection against their sonar.

The problem with the mod CCIP mentions is that the hydrophone sensors have been changed to lower sensivity.

I did a lot of tests on this and found out that increasing a bit here will make the DDs more challenging!

Hope this is helpful! :D

[OddjobXL]

I turned back to Thunder Below! as it has several descriptions of convoy actions. It does seem some escorts are much, much, better than others. You'll have some that drop one depth charge and claim a kill regardless if there's any indication of success. Others that roll right over and inexplicably don't notice anything below them. Then there are the guys who just sit there and pound the hell out of anything that looks remotely suspicious even if it's nothing at all. Yet other captains are extremely methodical, professional, and practiced in teamwork. Japanese escorts were a very mixed bag and this is in '44 after they supposedly got good at it!

I found two descriptions of relatively conventional convoy encounters. In both cases they seem to just keep going but they may leave an escort or two behind to hunt the sub or guard damaged ships. The only instances you see groups sticking together and loitering seems to be if there are very important military ships that get hit like carriers. Then they'll hang tight and try to stabilize the situation before moving on.

The convoy commander of convoy Mo-Ma 07 had frigate 28 for his flagship. Mo-Ma 07 was the abbreviation for a convoy departing from Moji for Manilla. Moji was just inside the Inland Sea, close to the heavily mined Tsushima Strait between Kyushu and Korea. It's sheltered bay was a major assembly point for convoys to China and the southern war front. Frigate 54 on the port bow of the convoy made sonar contact. "Sub sighted'" signals indicated a submarine was inside the convoy. "Emergency right turn!" was orderred as frigate 54 turned in to depth charge. The convoy commander, maritime transportation commander #5, ordered frigate 8 alongside to shift his flag. This accomplished, he ordered frigate 28 (which had the best German sonar) and frigate 54 to stay and sink the sub and render necessary assistance to the damaged Miho Maru. The rest of the convoy sailed on.
And again, we see this behavior in another convoy:

With the loss of the most important ship, Anyo Maru. and the ammunition ship Shinyo Maru, the convoy turned northeastward toward the north Formosan ports.
And in this case the escorts didn't even try to go after the sub! One even plowed right overhead, so close they could hear the screws turning inside the Barb's hull. But he didn't drop anything.

Here's Fluckey talking about Japanese merchant convoys:
Normally Japanese convoys had a tendency to place their escorts ahead and broad on the bows, with a trailer escort astern. For a dark, moonless, night normal wolfpack tactics called for the pack to get ahead of the convoy for an attack on the surface. One packmate would then pounce from port or starboard. Attack completed, the next would attack from the opposite side. That completed, the last of the three would attack from either side depending on the reaction in the convoy. After a sub attacked she would make another end around and the proceedure would be repeated. Sinking or damaged ships in the rear of a convoy should not have greatly affected the organization of a convoy. To the contrary, hitting the van ships caused pandemonium.
And this too sounds to me like the merchants don't stop and tend to hold formation as they keep moving. They might be ordered to speed up, if they can, or change course in formation. Or they might panic and scatter. But they keep moving.

[Ducimus]

How to unstupify the AI:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111395

[NefariousKoel]

I've had the same problem in both 1.1 and 1.2 starting in '41. I have reinstalled 3 times to see if it helped.

The search patterns are usually great for them but it seems their passive sonar is deaf and most importantly... I've never heard anyactive sonar pings. I don't know if the thermal layer is like a wall or what but they should at least go active when getting close.

Here are a couple screenshots demonstrating the extent of the problem. They are 2 completely different circling passes by the destroyer.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8088/screenshot036lr2.jpg

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5117/screenshot041pd7.jpg

I will try using one of the mods to improve things in the meantime.

[Lognoreng]

On one patrol o was totally hammered by their sensors.. *ping ping ping ping ping*. And there were 3 DD's total in the vicinity of the convoy i attacked. I thought i was dead for sure, however, even tho i was pinged and had my full side shown to the DD (Which had some engine problems i think, due to my torps :rock:) That explains why it could not hurt me. But i reckon the other 2 DD's would be informed in a matter of seconds where i was. But they werent. So i could just cruise around in PsD with scope fully up without really being bothered at all.

[MikeJW]

I've not seen the merchants in a convoy stop but I've seen the DDs run the gamut from incompetent to good but even good they're not too much of a threat. IRL the Japanese DDs werent as good at ASW as the Brits, who were masters, but I think in SH4 they're just a little too tame. I know they wouldnt work a contact like the British who would keep a U-Boot down all day and night. Instead the Japanese would work it for at most 6-8 hours with a few exception. Jap DD skippers were notorious for claiming kills after a few runs. I'm not sure how sensitive there sonar should be to reflect this.