S-Class Boats airborne in rough seas

[Beery]

Check this out:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Beery/SubFlying.jpg

Subs should never get this far out of the water. At one point, just before I paused it to take the photo this sub was entirely airborne. This never happened in SH3. I don't know why it's happening in SH4. It seems like the devs didn't give the subs any real weight - they don't crash into wave troughs anymore.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, I noticed this in rough seas. Dynamics need some work. As talented as you are at modding, can you do something with it?

[Beery]

Yes, I noticed this in rough seas. Dynamics need some work. As talented as you are at modding, can you do something with it?

Actually I'm probably better at putting together a bunch of mods than I am at the nitty-gritty of modding. If it's an image that needs tweaking or plain English data, that's easy, but when it gets into hex editing, alpha channels or weird physics models I'm lost. I think this one falls into the weird physics models area.

[MRV]

I noticed similar things with a type II in SH3 but an S-Class is a little bit heavier. ;)

[Georg_Unterberg]

The S-Class in SH4 is too unstable - it feels like I'm commanding a *row boat*. Way too much rolling and pitching even in calm winds. It needs some tuning!

In stormy conditions you need the main pump to get the barf out of the boat :lol:

[AVGWarhawk]

The S-Class in SH4 is too unstable - it feels like I'm commanding a *row boat*. Way too much rolling and pitching even in calm winds. It needs some tuning!

In stormy conditions you need the main pump to get the barf out of the boat :lol:

Not a row boat but a canoe:yep:

[Beery]

The S-Class in SH4 is too unstable - it feels like I'm commanding a *row boat*. Way too much rolling and pitching even in calm winds. It needs some tuning!

Too unstable? If anything I'm having the opposite problem with it - it's as solid as a rock. It never moves more than two or three degrees to port or starboard or towards the bow or stern. I wish it was a bit more unstable.

I don't understand why people are having such different experiences with it.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm glad you brought up this weighty matter, but I'm not sure you understand the gravity of the situation. I'll dive into this subject more deeply, and float my conlusions to the devs.

[flintlock]

That image does look quite silly. I haven't experienced this yet, though I did notice somewhat similar behavior in rough seas within SH3 (not to this extent, however). Perhaps this is more than mere tweaking can resolve, and more of a current engine limitation?

[Georg_Unterberg]

Please have a look at how far the S-18 rolls at only 5 m/s wind - it simply doesn't feel right!
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9073/sh4img1342007172833890yu6.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3323/sh4img1342007172838296pv0.jpg

at 14-15 m/s it is practically not possible to use this boat surfaced, you are losing too much speed and are diving too often.
Watch will also leave station automatically when the boat is underwater in heavy sea.
Was this typical for S-class boats?

[Skubber]

My s-boat never rolls that much. Not even in huge swells.
I want it to roll more. It is so stable, it doesn't feel like I'm on the ocean.

[Hartmann]

Looks like a dolphin class..:hmm:

devs probably put a very low value for the sub weight.
But another problem is the underwater rail, the boat seems to be running with weels in shallow waters.

[flintlock]

Was this typical for S-class boats? I don't know, but I doubt it.

I believe the S-class was an eleventh hour addition to SH4, to appease the fans. Perhaps the limited dev cycle to it is the root of the problem (I'm merely speculating). This odd S-class behavior may be addressed in a future patch. Either way, I really enjoy using this boat (one of my favorite).

[ENIGMAXXI]

Re.: "the boats dont have any weight"

...play around with the "MASS" setting in the minitweaker for example, it works with sh4, fun giving a GATO a mass of 2450 (OR 35000, you'll dent the seafloor 1.2 secs after loading the game)...try it :)

Problem is, if any MASS value is entered the boat becomes unbalanced regarding trim and floatation so it'd have to be rebalanced. A GATO set to MASS 1700 will sail along nicely until you do a crash dive and it starts to "recover slowly" somewhere around 260ft or something like that

[Avatar]

Were you recently depth charged? Sometimes, if youre DC'd your boat won't settle correctly, I think. It takes way too long, but seeing how I've never been DC'd, in real life, I really dont know.
anyHOO,
I once got my Akula II way up in the coulds in Sub Command. I think I still have the pic....

[602Sqn_Puff]

I was chasing after a couple of merchant ships in 14m/s winds {Im currently in a Gar class boat } and the escorts, both merchants and my boat all leave the water completely during the highs and lows of the waves...so it seems it isn't only the subs that sit high but all vessels during stormy weather. Hope it can be modded to make the ships and boat follow the waves more instead of travelling on rails.

[Avatar]

602 Sqd., nice image under your post. Are you looking forward to BoB, storm of war? I already bought my copy, which comes out june 1. Hopefully JG 26 will see you over the sheisskanal.

[shad43]

I beleive the mini tweaker can solve these problems, there are settings
for displacement, min/max traverse, min/max elavation ect.
I "think" these settings affect how the sub reacts to the sea around it.
That being said Im sure that the default values are the result of many
hours of testing in varied sea states, probly taking in to consideration
the subs real world stats. No doubt compromises were made between
the real world and what works in the game enviroment.

I feel the biggest problem is the "flying boat" I think its a weight issue
and I can change it....but I've found that changing any of the subs
values can dramaticly affect every other value, so they have to be
adjusted together for a proper effect.
for example, if I change the boats displacement it also affects the boats
min/max elavation (how far the bow/stern is allowed to rise and fall)
and min/max traverse (how far the boat sways from side to side)
Of course this is speculation on my part based on what Ive seen while
mucking about.

[Snowman999]

My s-boat never rolls that much. Not even in huge swells.
I want it to roll more. It is so stable, it doesn't feel like I'm on the ocean.

Mine doesn['t either. In general I think all the subs have pitch about right, but roll too little. They don't seem to ever yaw or corkscrew. (Corkscrewing will make you wonder why you ever sought the sea.)

[Bill Nichols]

My s-boat never rolls that much. Not even in huge swells.
I want it to roll more. It is so stable, it doesn't feel like I'm on the ocean.

Mine doesn['t either. In general I think all the subs have pitch about right, but roll too little. They don't seem to ever yaw or corkscrew. (Corkscrewing will make you wonder why you ever sought the sea.)

"Corkscrewing will make you wonder why you ever sought the sea."
Ain't that the truth! Been there, done that :|\\

Seriously, though, my S-boats never roll even a degree. Others say theirs roll too much (as the pics above indicate). Seems there is some strangely inconsistent behavior happening.... :-?

[joea]

What is "corkscrewing"? :-?

[Snowman999]

What is "corkscrewing"? :-?

A roll combined with a pitch. Sort of a "falling forward" to the left or right, over and over. Through some strange quirk of brain wiring corkscrewing to the right doesn't bother me much. To the left and I'm green. Maybe has to do with being right-handed.

[GSpector]

Isn't there an setting in "Options" to make your Sub more stable? I do believe this drops realism a bit. Or is this option just for viewing through the periscope?

This may explain why so many have rolling and others don't. :hmm:

[Beery]

Isn't there an setting in "Options" to make your Sub more stable? I do believe this drops realism a bit.

I set my game on full realism (except for the free camera for screenies) and my boat is as solid as a rock.

[Burnspot]

Isn't there an setting in "Options" to make your Sub more stable? I do believe this drops realism a bit.
I set my game on full realism (except for the free camera for screenies) and my boat is as solid as a rock.
Every boat I've been on in the game "flys" above the waves in stormy conditions and seems unusually steady (especially when compared to GWX boats in SH3). Crap, I did time on the USS Ranger....that thing moved to and fro in heavy seas....a sub should be all over the place in high seas. Some of the storms in the game bring visions of "Perfect Storm", but your boat won't notice. It's almost as if you're on the Nautilus ride at Disney World...you have rails under your sub.

There's been a longstanding MOD request for tuning this stuff, but nobody's tackled it yet.

[-Pv-]

There isn't a ship in the sim that doesn't appear out of the water in high waves. Have you noticed when the sub is out of the water the depth reading shows as increased (with a depth of 25ft or more?) And when inundated with waves passing well over the bridge your depth indicator shows you are shallower than normal draft. This gives me the impression the coded wave effect on the model has a reverse characteristic. Possibly in inverted sign somewhere in the boyancy modeling code. I've had the crew announce 33 feet during a dive when the whole sub was completely out of the water. Futher indication there is an underlying base level or stability model that is totally independant of the wave height (although the model slowly reacts to wave height changes and the bow wave effects tries to follow the waves. ) Another possibility is the stability model might try to average the wave height over too large an area causing localized error.
-Pv-

[Beery]

I think we need to get word through to the dev team on this. They may not even know it's a problem.

[AVGWarhawk]

There isn't a ship in the sim that doesn't appear out of the water in high waves. Have you noticed when the sub is out of the water the depth reading shows as increased (with a depth of 25ft or more?) And when inundated with waves passing well over the bridge your depth indicator shows you are shallower than normal draft. This gives me the impression the coded wave effect on the model has a reverse characteristic. Possibly in inverted sign somewhere in the boyancy modeling code. I've had the crew announce 33 feet during a dive when the whole sub was completely out of the water. Futher indication there is an underlying base level or stability model that is totally independant of the wave height (although the model slowly reacts to wave height changes and the bow wave effects tries to follow the waves. ) Another possibility is the stability model might try to average the wave height over too large an area causing localized error.
-Pv-


Simply put.....the water is doing the moving up and down as your sub stays pretty much stationary on your screen. The effects of the water make the sub look like it is moving about when in all reality it is just the water creating this illusion??????

[Georg_Unterberg]

Isn't there an setting in "Options" to make your Sub more stable? I do believe this drops realism a bit.
I set my game on full realism (except for the free camera for screenies) and my boat is as solid as a rock.
As everybody else seems to have a stable S-18 I began to look at the mods I have enabled. Indeed I found that there is a mod that seems to be the cause of the heavy movement of the S-boat. It seems to be nvdrifters harder escorts and aircraft 1.01

Don't know why, but if I disable this mod all is normal with S-18 movement. Anybody want to confirm this?

[AVGWarhawk]

I do not have this mod. My sub does move around quite a bit. Perhaps it is the warship mod?:hmm:

[-Pv-]

We have to be careful in our observations not to confuse the camera following (giving the allusion the depth of the sub is not changing relative to the water level at any given moment.) The effect of the camera will be to give the impression the sub is always centered on the screen. This is why I considered the depth indicator error as a clue there is something odd besides the visual presentation going on.

The only very slight pitch change relavant to wave following is disconcerting, the props out of the water for extended periods while sitting flat at the bottom of a trough, the inverted depth indication. All add up to what appears to be an incomplete boyancy model which looks just great in calm weather. It's expected that props would be out of the water for a short period at the top of a wave pitching down into a trough, but the current behavior is not convincing.
-Pv-

[Deep Six]

My boat flies as well...Porpoise class Steady as a rock in 15m swells and howling wind!!

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/JMES2006/SH4Img2-4-2007_20.jpg

There is absolutely no "Real sea-keeping" characteristics on any of the boats....They all are fliers and steady as she goes....


Deep Six

[Ducimus]

I beleive the mini tweaker can solve these problems, there are settings
for displacement, min/max traverse, min/max elavation ect.
I "think" these settings affect how the sub reacts to the sea around it.


Thats what i think. I starting testing it, but simply ran out of time to do so. I noticed that these settings are different from the subs in SH3, and the subs in SH3 for the most part had similar statistics in this regard in terms of typ7's and type 9's.

Another key note here is the wave attun settings at the head of the SIM.CFG file. THey are QUITE LOW.

If you want to see the exact opposite of the "flying boat" set your wave settings to stock sh3 settings in the sim.cfg. (0.5/0.3 i think), crank the wind up to 15 kts, and watch the boat wallow around. I know a porpoise cannot keep on the surface with those settings, and elcos blow up.

[Beery]

Simply put.....the water is doing the moving up and down as your sub stays pretty much stationary on your screen. The effects of the water make the sub look like it is moving about when in all reality it is just the water creating this illusion??????

Yeah, I see that this may be the case. But in my view if that's the case the devs have two choices:

1. they should make it so the sub moves up and down to suit what the water does.

2. they should make it so the waves aren't so big that the boat appears to fly.

[Torpex752]

<I have to post this>

My S-Class rolls just right! :smug:


LOL

Frank
:cool:

[Faamecanic]

Please have a look at how far the S-18 rolls at only 5 m/s wind - it simply doesn't feel right!
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9073/sh4img1342007172833890yu6.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3323/sh4img1342007172838296pv0.jpg

at 14-15 m/s it is practically not possible to use this boat surfaced, you are losing too much speed and are diving too often.
Watch will also leave station automatically when the boat is underwater in heavy sea.
Was this typical for S-class boats?


WTF?!?! My S-boat is like Beery's....rock solid...I have NEVER seen a roll like this??

What is with SH4 stuff varying between installs on machines? I also only get one level of "hull" creaking when submerging. Near crush depth sounds the same as 60 ft?