No sound contacts whatsoever

[horrgakx]

I have to rely on being surfaced to detect any kind of surface contact, I do not get ANY reports of sound contacts. Whats going on?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/horrgakx/Sub/nosoundcontact.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Sonar does not work above 60 feet. Not sure if historcally correct but surface noise when at scope depth did drown out good sonar contact.

[Jungman]

The stock game sets the sonar sensor Max Height at a number -9 (-300 to -9). So it it will not work at periscope depth. You can change this in Sensors.sim if you wish to have it work at periscope depth. Try to go down further a few feet until you hear it on the hyrophone station yourself.

I set mine for 1 hex less than the three given -6, -6, -9.

[-Pv-]

Better yet, if you are in a non-S boat, all you need to do is use 55 or 56 feet depth. Both your attack scope and sonar will be usable. No need to edit anything. To test this go to your hydrophone station and descend until you hear your own props behind you. When that happens, you will hear all other sound contacts and your crew will report them. It takes a certian amount of depth for the surface noise to be suppressed enough to use the hydrophones.
-Pv-

[Avatar]

I would love to have sonar work at PD.

[akdavis]

Sonar does not work above 60 feet. Not sure if historcally correct but surface noise when at scope depth did drown out good sonar contact.

That is not historical, particularly for sonar heads mounted on the bottom of the hull. Hyrdophone effectiveness should degrade based on submarine movement, proximity to surface and surface condition due to interference from surface noise and movement of water around the sub. Sonar/hydrophone should only flat out not function if the sonar head is physically out of the water, and for most of the war, this was not the case with US hydrophones due to their location.

There are plenty of accounts of sonar being utilized on the surface in the right conditions and particularly in locating strong sounds (pinging, proximate machinery sounds, torpedo runs, torpedo detonations, depth charge detonations, ships breaking up, etc.). The sonar man certainly had a role during night surface attacks.

[SteamWake]

I would imagine that if

A. Pickups were below the water line.

B. Sub was at a dead stop

C. Seas were glassy smooth

You wold be able to hear a pin drop while surfaced.

Large convoys make a tremdous amount of noise espically while steaming at speed. Reminds me of that line from Red October "At that speed they could run over my daughters sterio and not hear it".

My point is that the sensors should "work" regardless of depth. The variable should be amount of background noise the usefull sounds could be heard above. Kind of like these forums... but I digress.

Another thing to note that a sense of scale is skewed in SH4 the radar can pick up ships at a much greater range than they could be heard.

However at the range of the OP's post you could probably hear the boat with Mark 1 sonar (your ears).

[Bilge_Rat]

I seem to recall that in SH3 people were complaining that the sonars did work at PD and a mod came in to remove that availability.

[AVGWarhawk]

I suspected you could use the sonar close to the surface. It might be harder to pinpoint specific noised because of surface noise? I do not know.

[Bilge_Rat]

This is how sonar works in real life:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm

none of this is modeled in SH4 except the thermal layer. Normally, it should be harder to hear close to the surface due to temperature changes (figs.6,7 & 8), reflection of sound on the surface and the turbulence caused by the boat.

In Dangerous Waters where the Sonar is based on this model, you will normally pick up stronger sound signals as you go deeper.

In SH4, it looks like the sound model is very simple, namely contacts appear as soon as they are at a certain range with an adjustment based on whether the sub is above or below the thermal layer.

Normally you should still be able to pick up contacts at PD although not as well as if you go deeper, since the SH4 sound model appears to be a simple on/off thing, I presume it was a design decision to remove the ability to hear sound contacts at PD.

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess it might be hard to model in RL to virtual reality. Anyway, I think the sonar should work at PD but perhaps implement a water/swishing noise on top of the prop noises you hear.

[Bilge_Rat]

while playing last night, I noticed that my soundman will still report and track contacts at PD, even though when I manually man the station, I cannot hear any sounds, so your sub is not deaf at PD.

[horrgakx]

See my screenshot, a merchant approached to about 600yds away and nobody reported it. I stuck the periscope up and THEN they saw it.


Dave

[Onkel Neal]

This is how sonar works in real life:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm

none of this is modeled in SH4 except the thermal layer. Normally, it should be harder to hear close to the surface due to temperature changes (figs.6,7 & 8), reflection of sound on the surface and the turbulence caused by the boat.

In Dangerous Waters where the Sonar is based on this model, you will normally pick up stronger sound signals as you go deeper.

In SH4, it looks like the sound model is very simple, namely contacts appear as soon as they are at a certain range with an adjustment based on whether the sub is above or below the thermal layer.

Normally you should still be able to pick up contacts at PD although not as well as if you go deeper, since the SH4 sound model appears to be a simple on/off thing, I presume it was a design decision to remove the ability to hear sound contacts at PD.


Well done.

Yes, I remember the outcry with SH3 that sonar should not work at PD :) I agree with your analysis, passive hydrophone should be functional but less effective at PD. I'm pretty sure it was standard procedure for a US sub skipper to order the planesmen to take her below PD unless he was actually using the scope (I could be wrong), to avoid broaching.

I have noticed that if you descend to 80 feet and cut your motors, you can actually pick up sound contacts that you would not be able to hear. Try it and see, you can hear the difference when the sub's motors stop. Ideally, the sound change would occur when the sub's speed nears 0 knots, but anyway, pretty neat. Also, worth noting that without forward propulsion, the sub should slowly rise or descend, depending on the state of trim, but that is probably not modeled.

[sea enemy]

none of this is modeled in SH4 except the thermal layer. Normally, it should be harder to hear close to the surface due to temperature changes (figs.6,7 & 8), reflection of sound on the surface and the turbulence caused by the boat.

Not to mention lack of reciprocal bearing contact ambiguity as well (sound does exist on both sides of the JK bar!)...I hate to say it, but, the sonar and radar in SH series is just painfully, painfully simplified...In game, it works more like a radio contact than a sensor. (it is, in fact a 'radio contact' with a few added detection variables)

[Bilge_Rat]

I have noticed that if you descend to 80 feet and cut your motors, you can actually pick up sound contacts that you would not be able to hear. Try it and see, you can hear the difference when the sub's motors stop. Ideally, the sound change would occur when the sub's speed nears 0 knots, but anyway, pretty neat. Also, worth noting that without forward propulsion, the sub should slowly rise or descend, depending on the state of trim, but that is probably not modeled.

thanks for the tip, I will give it a try.

[-Pv-]

"... I have noticed that if you descend to 80 feet and cut your motors..."

It's the killing of the motors that has more effect than the depth.

Now as far as "parascope depth"...

There is a key that sets a default parascope depth but this "depth" is not the only one at which your parascope "works." Even at the default setting your scope can be washed out by waves (even tini ones) and you can lose contacts you're looking at. In other words, you can set depths that are shallower and deeper than what is required to use the parascope, so in effect you have a RANGE of depths at which you can use the parascope effectively without broaching the boat nor totally submerging the scope making it useless. Thus, the default "parascope depth" setting is actually a mid point between a range of possibilitites. That the sound gear doesn't function at the shallow end of this range doesn't bother me because I can use the scope and use the sound gear.
No Problem.
-Pv-

[horrgakx]

Parascope? Why would scopes from our own Parachute Regiment be on a sub?? :hmm:


:)

[fullmetaledges]

none of this is modeled in SH4 except the thermal layer. Normally, it should be harder to hear close to the surface due to temperature changes (figs.6,7 & 8), reflection of sound on the surface and the turbulence caused by the boat.

Not to mention lack of reciprocal bearing contact ambiguity as well (sound does exist on both sides of the JK bar!)...I hate to say it, but, the sonar and radar in SH series is just painfully, painfully simplified...In game, it works more like a radio contact than a sensor. (it is, in fact a 'radio contact' with a few added detection variables)

Don't reciprocal bearings come from using a towed array?

[McBeck]

Yesterday I discovered something interesting!

In this game I have never gotten report from sonar or hydrphone.

I went below PD , because I heard that they would not work at PD.
Sure enough...I got loads of contacts, but when I went to PD they would still give me contact updates.

So they trick seems to be to below PD, active the crew so they will give you contact reports, then go to PD ( even 50ft will work!!)

[BlackSpot]

Yeah, I've noticed this. It does work, but it carries on working when you surface. Just don't ask for a contact update because the sonarman will then tell you there aren't any.:o

[horrgakx]

> So they trick seems to be to below PD, active the crew so
> they will give you contact reports, then go to PD ( even 50ft will work!!)

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean. I've never had a sonar contact.

[McBeck]

> So they trick seems to be to below PD, active the crew so
> they will give you contact reports, then go to PD ( even 50ft will work!!)

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean. I've never had a sonar contact.
Go below PD. Go to the hydrophone. You should now be able find contacts.
When you go back to PD you will still be able to.

[horrgakx]

If I go deeper, will my crew be able to find, track and update contacts on the map auto-magically??

[McBeck]

If I go deeper, will my crew be able to find, track and update contacts on the map auto-magically??More or less
I think its a feature/bug. I would expect it to work when you are submerged at any time, but my decription is just a workaround to trigger the updates.

Worked for me yesterday like a charm...he would shut up! :smug:

[Placoderm]

In your screenshot you are traveling at flank speed. You will not pick up any contacts at that speed no matter what depth you are at, as your engine noise will cancel any contact noise that you could hear.

Either cut engines enitrely (for best results), or reduce speed drastically to make use of your hydrophones.

Hope that helps ya out!

:up:

[sea enemy]

Don't reciprocal bearings come from using a towed array?
Play alot of DW, eh? yes, but not exclusively-
The JK in WWII did give reciprocal bearings..the sound head was directional, but probably had a bit of opposite polarity echo..In the sonar operator manual, they describe the reciprocal contact as being distinctly softer and poorer quality audio than the actual contact. Upon hearing a contact, the procedure was to immediately swing 180 degrees and resolve.

There's a funny side note-If you read Wahoo, there's a good anecdote of the 2nd patrol where the Wahoo blows a perfect attack beacuse of a misread reciprocal contact-they thought a destroyer had snuck in behind them..D'oh!