Realism: Is the game too real for you??

[shawnyp420]

I've been seeing alot of threads concerning the inability of some skippers to sink > 40K tons of shipping per patrol. Or the fact that they are constantly harrassed (in certain areas) during the day time. Or the fact that the torpedos often don't function properly.

Well...Read the partol logs my friend. You'll find that in one case, the Batfish: Batfish's war operations span a period from 11 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_11) 1943 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943) to 26 August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_26) 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945) during which she completed six war patrols. She is credited with having sunk nine Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) ships totaling 10,658 tons while operating east of Japan, in the Philippine Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Sea), Luzon Strait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzon_Strait), and South China Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea).

10.6K tons. Thats it. 6 Patrols!!

SD Radar / (Air to Air)

This was a very basic unit. Operated from the conning tower, the SD radar was only vaguely directional. It was capable of warning that a plane was within about 6 miles of the boat, but couldn't really pinpoint a bearing, or give much in the way of information. Late in the war, SD was replaced by SV radar. The Batfish is shown with SD Radar.

1210(Y) Submerged to 400 ft. to test ship for water-tightness. No abnormal leakage.(balao class)



Forced to slow to 2/3 speed.


It appears as if "Standard" was the standard speed for making long distance hikes.

[shawnyp420]

The patrols ALSO show that they were staying submerged most of the day while in the patrol area. Submerging around 7 and back up around 1700. They also made great use of both radars. I'm reading that they would submerge and still be able to use the surface radar up on the mast. I wonder if this is possible in the game at periscope depth? Anyone get radar contactss while submerged? Maybe you have to trim your depth so the masts all poke out?? MOD up a button for that depth maybe??

[AVGWarhawk]

Thus far with the game set at 100% it seems that realism is created very well. Currently I'm satified with the realism aspect. But, like anything else, a tweek here and there never hurts.

[CruiseTorpedo]

I can deal with the aircraft, torpedoes, and difficulty. I just want the bugs fixed. Radar didnt shut down the moment a boat turned south, and the position keeper wasnt meant to only work on the starboard side, etc etc.

[Camaero]

I am sinking too many ships. I am getting 30k a patrol roughly with full real ticked except for manual tdc. I don't think there are enough dud torpedoes as there were in real life. I also think those ships that appear on the map are way too often and help me find too many ships that I would otherwise never find.

It seems to me that in real life, the two main problems were faulty torpedoes, and finding a target rich environment.

What do you all think? I know its certainly not too real for me. I would be happy with even more realism.:rock:

[CCIP]

Switch to manual, skipper. Guaranteed to make kills 50% more challenging and 100% more satisfying :p

[Charos]

Its better than SH3 - But if I have a TDC in my S-Boat with a stadiometer, ASW aircraft that see in the dark without radar with unrealistic patrol parameters and depth charges with unrealistic performance to name but a few then NO its far from realistic.

But the MOD team are on the job.

[Camaero]

Switch to manual, skipper. Guaranteed to make kills 50% more challenging and 100% more satisfying :p

Yeah, I keep wanting to make the switch. I know I would have a lot of fun doing it. :yep:

[Jab_Bauer]

I cant say if it is too real just yet. Im still on my first patrol and it will take a few more days to get there (Im tring not to use time compression). But I am supprised at all the little details in the game.

I just noticed the water comming out the sides of the ship is realistic in graphical way as well. Water will enter the holes and when the wave goes down a ton of water spouts out of the holes. However after a little while the water comming out dies down and even stops. But as soon as the hole is covered by a wave, more water starts pouring out. Neat.

Now.. if they would show the entire crew passed out at their stations when they are all asleep and not following directions and this game would be as real as it gets.

[Iron Budokan]

I guess I'm pretty happy with the realism aspect of the game when I played it. (I'm just waiting for the next patch and will go back.)

I like the physics of the sub, the detail and all the other graphics and gaming realism. I know it's kind of unusual (re: impossible historically) to sink this much tonnage....but when I go back to the game after the patch I'll be using manual so the tonnage will drop. Cool enough, imo.

Besides, I also expect the modders will tweak these aspects, too, given time. I don't mind waiting.:rock:

[GoldenRivet]

im happy with the realism for the most part.

my 4 biggest complaints about the realism (and the game in general)

1. The lightest damage to your sub means you cant submerge without fear of sinking like a stone.

2. There are WAY too many contact reports IMHO... many many many more than in SH3 this not only fills the ocean with little contact reports but its probably the reason the message log takes so long to open up

3. The planes fly over and spot you in pitch dark with no radar and drop laser guided precision bombs on you. well - thats what it seems like.

4. Depth charge attacks lethal radius is too large. In SH3 you could take a little bit of a beating at least - but in SH4 its a one shot one kill thing to be depth charged - probably because of the damage control - it senses the slightest damage and your done for if submerged.

[nattydread]

My biggest gripe is sitill the shear volume of targets made available to me. Im i a uber S-Boat I guess because of the TDC and stadimeter, but outside of that I im full 100% from the roota to the toota. Im geting about 20k tons a patrol with a lot ofhelp from my deck gun. The fact Im using mk 10s help too because Im not having any duds since I only use contact fuses and get in close.

I dont play around with DDs and I have a relativly hard time raping escorted convoys(I try and play realistically so I dont abuse the AI).

I live an die by the small 1 or 2 ship contacts. There are so many I can just hang around until my deck gun is empty. About 90% of my kills are handed to me by COMSUBPAC contact reports...thats way too many 'gimme's.

I'd like smart positioning along sea-ways and aroun dbusy ports to mean more. Make me think a little, move into position, wait it out, sweat it out, question my thinking and then maybe get some action sometimes. I want to see traffic patterns change in response to sinkings, increases in escorts in hot areas, etc.

[shoot-kill-win]

actually the Batfish made 7 patrols sinking 12,332 tons, but damaged a whole heck of alot of ships, and she started in 43.

[partyboy]

Depth charges have been one-shot kills for me, also, and anytime an aircraft is spotted, if i don't crash dive, there's a 50/50 chance I'll be hit and receive at least enough damage to make it impossible to continue with my patrol since, even after repairs, the sub will continue to sink unless tanks are blown.

The amount of damage wouldn't bother me as much if every single plane didn't immediately zero in on me.

[nattydread]

If you're in a Gato, and espeically if you're going fast, you'd make a pretty easy target.

Big boat, big wake, slow dive...planes should always make you nervous, general rule really should be to crash dive. Airplanes should be your worst nightmare everytime. Now maybe they shouldnt see you everytime, but you should be diving everytime, no questions asked. Just consider the game keeping you honest :)

[ElAurens]

There is a config file (or whtever it's called here) that sets aircraft parameters. Find it and set night time to 0.5, bingo, no more night air attacks. The Japanese did not have this capability. You can also set the other parameters too. Pull them all down a bit and it is far more realistic. Especially considering the completely incorrect weapons loads the IJN aircraft have and the bizzare tactics they employ.

[nattydread]

what bizzare tactics?

[jdski]

I got over 100k on my first patrol. I was surprized and I thought that was way too much. I do have map updates on and external views but that's it. It certainly helped to go and loadup on more torps and fuel and nearby bases before ending my patrol. Also finding two heavy cruiseliners together unescorted didn't hurt either.
I usually don't go after convoys because I wasn't able to hit more then one ship at a time before they zigzag. Almost all my kills were one at a time except those two cruiseliners. I always try to set up to a 1/2 nautical mile to make it harder to miss.

[GoldenRivet]

what bizzare tactics?

bizzare tactics like kamikaze strikes in 41-42. (no damage to the boat anyhow)

bizzare tactics like flying right over your boat and not doing anything then they suddenly turn around hard and drop a dozen bombs from a single zero :roll:

all i can think of.

but i do think it is pretty unrealistic for a single zero fighter to zoom right to your location in the dead of night - over the ocean - and put bombs PRECISELY on target as if they were guided munitions or something..

as a pilot i can assure you that it takes solid balls of brass to fly out over the ocean in the dead of night in an aircraft similarly equipped to something like in the early 1940's and go dive bombing onto a target you cant really see too well. WOW :dead: :dead: :dead: i seriously doubt that the japanese aircraft had so much success with night attacks in 41 or 42 or even 43.

[Grothesj2]

There is realism, then there is boring. Not much fun to play if you cruise around for hours and never find anything to kill. So of course, your tonnage going to be more than the average sub crew. If I wanted to "simulate" boredom I would watch paint dry.

[partyboy]

The eternal debate, I see it in every gaming community.

For some people (myself included) boredom/tedium is part of the experience. I mean, I wouldn't play a 1x patrol--that's insane. But compared to default settings, playing on 92%+ realism is mostly "boring." But for us, that just makes the action so much more satisfying. Being able to mentally roleplay helps.

[Camaero]

The eternal debate, I see it in every gaming community.

For some people (myself included) boredom/tedium is part of the experience. I mean, I wouldn't play a 1x patrol--that's insane. But compared to default settings, playing on 92%+ realism is mostly "boring." But for us, that just makes the action so much more satisfying. Being able to mentally roleplay helps.

Yeah, I don't want to just sink a bunch of ships and get every medal the US handed out. I want to struggle to survive and struggle to sink them japs. I don't like the idea of sinking way more than any of the real boats did. Perhaps switching to manual tdc will help, but I still don't think there are enough dud torps early on, and way too many map contacts.

[Charos]

There is realism, then there is boring. Not much fun to play if you cruise around for hours and never find anything to kill. So of course, your tonnage going to be more than the average sub crew. If I wanted to "simulate" boredom I would watch paint dry.

Well your in luck because the game caters to your style of play - just set realism to 30% and your good to go.

But unfortunately we are still looking for the SH4 500% Realism settings.

[jdski]

Watching paint dry would be kind of rewarding. Because you would have to paint something to watch it dry which means you actually accomplished something. I would suggest watching grass grow. Very little effort needed. You can measure the results, and you might see a bird or squirrel go by in the proccess.

There is realism, then there is boring. Not much fun to play if you cruise around for hours and never find anything to kill. So of course, your tonnage going to be more than the average sub crew. If I wanted to "simulate" boredom I would watch paint dry.

[shawnyp420]

If I wanted to "simulate" boredom I would watch paint dry.

Hilarious!

[Sailor Steve]

There's no such thing as "too real"...except for the part where I die.

[flintlock]

Watching paint dry would be kind of rewarding.
Only if I had cooler full of beer beside me.

[Frenssen]

I don`t think the game is too difficult. Just give me radars that work and I will be happy.
My biggest problem is manual TDC. I have read all the guides there is on how to operate it, but I can`t hit anything:cry: .I really think the German "point and shoot" TDC was much easier to operate.

[donut]

I don`t think the game is too difficult. Just give me radars that work and I will be happy.
My biggest problem is manual TDC. I have read all the guides there is on how to operate it, but I can`t hit anything:cry: .I really think the German "point and shoot" TDC was much easier to operate. would be less cumbersome,not R/L.
SHI had better representation of all Radars,10 years ago. Sonar contacts,of life rafts hacks my butt, unreal joke,& imposable.

[wahoo]

I've been seeing alot of threads concerning the inability of some skippers to sink > 40K tons of shipping per patrol. Or the fact that they are constantly harrassed (in certain areas) during the day time. Or the fact that the torpedos often don't function properly.

Well...Read the partol logs my friend. You'll find that in one case, the Batfish: Batfish's war operations span a period from 11 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_11) 1943 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943) to 26 August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_26) 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945) during which she completed six war patrols. She is credited with having sunk nine Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) ships totaling 10,658 tons while operating east of Japan, in the Philippine Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Sea), Luzon Strait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzon_Strait), and South China Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea).

10.6K tons. Thats it. 6 Patrols!!

SD Radar / (Air to Air)

This was a very basic unit. Operated from the conning tower, the SD radar was only vaguely directional. It was capable of warning that a plane was within about 6 miles of the boat, but couldn't really pinpoint a bearing, or give much in the way of information. Late in the war, SD was replaced by SV radar. The Batfish is shown with SD Radar.

1210(Y) Submerged to 400 ft. to test ship for water-tightness. No abnormal leakage.(balao class)



Forced to slow to 2/3 speed.


It appears as if "Standard" was the standard speed for making long distance hikes.

This game rocks, even tho it is taking a lot of time to figure out how to do the
TDC computer manually, with realistic and 100% factor
The destroyers even turned their search lights on me in the South China Sea,
it was fantastic realism, I wouldnt have it any other way.
Once I master the TDC, watch out!!!!

[Calbeck]

And the converse is also true; make it too hard to suppress disbelief and you have a Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck cartoon masquerading as a WWII sub sim. "Zero Season! Sub Season! Zero Season!"

I'm going to try that tweak mentioned a few posts ago. It's true that Japanese NAVAL night ops were good, but that's because they invested in the necessary tech and training --- for naval crews. The first time I saw a Jap destroyer sweeping the sea with a searchlight, it actually sent a chill up my spine. But the same was NOT true of their air forces. Only under the very best of conditions are you going to be able to spot a ship running under light discipline on the Pacific, at least by eyeball from an airplane. You need a backlighting moon, calm seas, and little or no cloud cover...any other conditions and you could fly right past a fleet, at night.

If I've got one big beef so far, it's the enemy AI --- most often, there ISN'T one. A torpedo prematurely detonates, sending a plume of water a hundred feet into the air, and the Japanese act like a whale just popped up for a breather. I sink not one, or two, but THREE small passenger carriers, and their escorts visibly yawn and look the other way. Even after adding a Kuma-class light cruiser to the kill tally, no reaction at all unless I actually SURFACE. It's like they have to VISUALLY see me before they begin looking with sonar!

[Werewolf13]

Gamer: I'm playing an Heroic and very Lucky WWII Sub Skipper. Sinking 40K tons a patrol is to be expected. Besides how boring would the game be if we sank ships at the historical rate.

Historical Rate: It's been a while since I read it but to the best of my recollection and according to Silent Victory there were something like 1400 Submarine war patrols conducted in the Pacific during WWII. Something over a 1000 ships were sunk during those patrols. That means that almost 30% of patrols didn't sink anything. Near the end of the war there wasn't a lot left so a lot of those 400 with no sinkings probably occured in '45.

Simmer: That's all part of the experience - it's the hunt that counts not the kill. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. Deal with it.

FWIW: I think SH4 (just like 1 thru 3) are too easy.

[Chock]

I agree that the aircraft in SH4 do tend to be a little too accurate in their bombing and rather too frequent for the timeframe of the sim, but it is not strictly correct to say that ships can only be spotted in 'ideal' circumstances at night, and the results of Mitsui Fuchida's raids on Pearl Harbor and Darwin clearly show that if the Japs could see a target, they could most certainly hit it...

Look out of the window of an airliner at 35,000 feet over the ocean at night, and you will often see ships if there is little cloud cover. Admittedly they will be lit up, but you'll notice that the wakes are quite apparent as well, and they can be very highly visible if the props of the ship are churning up plankton which can sometimes be phosphorescent - strictly speaking bioluminescent - but you know what I mean.

Of course a Jap patrol plane would probably be nearer 10,000 feet than 35,000, limiting how much the crew could survey, but don't be so sure that they'd never spot a thing on a night patrol.

Check this quote out: 'Let us go forward in the traditional night attack of the Imperial Navy, may each one of us calmly do his utmost'.

That was Vice Admiral Gunichi Mikawa, speaking on the evening before his attack in the Slot at Guadalcanal where four allied cruisers were sunk in the space of 20 minutes. They were pinpointed by Imperial Navy aircraft dropping flares, and the resulting destruction prompted Vice Admiral Fletcher to withdraw his carrier group, to prevent its loss. As at that time, the Japanese pilots were usually far more adept than any allied flyers with regard to night operations, many having already been flying in combat for years over China, making them the equivalent of the equally combat-savvy bf109 pilots encountered by the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Add to this the fact the Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero' was greatly feared by most allied pilots at this point in the war, who had yet to adopt the correct 'boom and zoom' tactics necessary to defeat it.

The planes might be too good in SH4, but although they are not an accurate portrayal in many respects, their qualities do make SH4 resemble the 'pucker-factor' which most sub drivers must have felt at the time.

[Payoff]

Another factor to consider in comparing our tonnage with real life Skippers is the fact that JANAC (Joint Army Navy Assessment Committee) were VERY conservative when crediting submarines with documented kills, because they rellied heavily on Japanese war records. There are countless tales of skipper and crew watching ships go down, sinking 4 or 5 ships in heartpounding life or death situations, only to be credited with 1/2 a kill for that patrol. Simply because the Japanese did not have accurate records of a particular ship in a particular place and time. If I remember correctly, its estimated that they cut the reported total tonnage in half by the end of the war. I always keep that in mind when I see my name at the top of the chalkboard at H.Q. Let somebody make a mod of that.:lol:

[mookiemookie]

There's no such thing as "too real"...except for the part where I die.

:yep: Agreed. Go play Halo if you think realism is "boring" as this ain't that kind of game!

[longam]

SHIII Flash Back
Not enough targets to sink, patrols boring. Shooting planes down was easy as shooting clay pigeons. Seems the Developers listened to our plea.
Remember some of the mod’s that increased the amount of ships?