I am sick of these planes.

[Sceptre666]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

[Acmark]

I see your point. I haven't been able to complete ONE successful patrol starting in 1941 (kinda sad hehe) but I have always lost my boat due to planes. It seems right after you pass Midway they come out of the woodwork.

Brought me back to the 1943 days in my VIIC...

:(

[MarshalLaw]

You're right off the coast of Japan, what do you expect???. It's no differant than trying to go through the channel in SH3 anytime during the war, if the weather is good you will be jumped many times. The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.

[Mylander]

I agree, there are way too many planes IMHO. It would be interesting to see how many subs were actually sunk or damaged by aircraft historically. Or do some reading - on a given day, what were the chances of getting jumped by an aircraft in a given place and time?

Surely this could be modified without too much trouble - cut those suckers by 3/4 or something - pick a number, but in all of my reading, I don't get the sense that IJN/IJA aircraft were such a big problem for US subs.

Mylander

[Sceptre666]

You're right off the coast of Japan, what do you expect???. It's no differant than trying to go through the channel in SH3 anytime during the war, if the weather is good you will be jumped many times. The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.

Except that's just it, I'm not only off the coast of Japan. It seems that right once you pass Midway island, you get barraged non stop all day long. It doesn't make any sense and is rediculous.

[Peever]

The first modding I did for this game was to scale down the airplane attacks. There just are way too many in the stock game. It's a very easy fix though. Just change a few values in the AirStrike.cfg and things get a lot better.

[fredbass]

Maybe this will help:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109586&highlight=%5BREL%5D

[Onkel Neal]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

[malkuth74]

You can edit some files to let them down a little.

But your best bet is to Run Surface at night and sumerged during day. During day Run at 2 knots and your batteries will last till nighttime.

Doing this for my 3rd Career, and I have not yet had many plane problems. Only when I get caught surface in day light.

[Cakewalk]

One can only imagine how real life crews must have handled not seeing the sun for 30+ days.:o

[Radtgaeb]

what truly irks me is the fact that I get slowed to 4 compresion EVERY time I get a surface or air contact....oh! did I mention I get them on the same radar? I'm sorry, it skipped my mind.

Why do I pick up surface vessels on my AA radar?


And why can't I manually operate (let alone, turn on) either one? (I've already tried to *click* the little yellow buttion...oh wait, no I didn't BECAUSE IT WAS GREY!...although I distinctly remember installing one at port AND I get those incessant "Contact!" "Contact!" "Contact!" reports.....) UGH!

These patches can't come too soon. Oh wait, yeah they can, I said the same thing about the game, and I got what I wanted, 'cept it has uber-loads of bugs.

Poor buggers on the dev team being hounded by money-grubbing publishers. :down:

[NefariousKoel]

One can only imagine how real life crews must have handled not seeing the sun for 30+ days.:o

It's about 90 days in these modern times of ours. ;)

[Skweetis]

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

Where'd you get your hands on those? I've been looking for genuine patrol reports to use as reference for my Journal project. Can you order them directly from the National Archives, even if you aren't a US Citizen?

Sorry for the hijack, this caught my attention.

Cheers.

[tater]

Even if the number of air contacts is in the ballpark, the bomb loads are so far from reality it's funny. 3x500kg for a zero that held 2x60kg in theory, but virtually never carried bombs in reality. Zeros should have zero bombs. Vals? 3x500kg in game I think, should be ONE times 250kg. All are wrong.

The 2 types with decent bombloads, the H6K and H8K frequently appear in pairs. Odd, since maritime patrol planes would always be singletons to spread out the search pattern (they are still over bombed).

So fix the bombloads, and at least they won't be like dive bombing B-29s.

tater

[Cakewalk]

One can only imagine how real life crews must have handled not seeing the sun for 30+ days.:o

It's about 90 days in these modern times of ours. ;)

Ouch. I guess being pale is norm for a submariner.:)

[Blackfury]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

Yes I'm also sick of them... btw can you escape them by diving? My boat(s) never dived fast enough to escape the 1st bombing run :oops:

[quadraspleen]

The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.

I was attacked about 100 miles off the coast of N. Queenland last night, by a Betty.

And the batteries don't last long enough to do a full day at PD/3kts.

Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. )

I reckon they come straight towards you becuase they have radar, perhaps?!

[hyperion2206]

The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.
I was attacked about 100 miles off the coast of N. Queenland last night, by a Betty.

And the batteries don't last long enough to do a full day at PD/3kts.

Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. )
I reckon they come straight towards you becuase they have radar, perhaps?!


That would be really unrealisitic, Japan did not get radar before the end of '43 and even then the radar wasn't working in 9 out of 10 times.

[FoddaUK]

The most annoying thing about the planes is the AI setup. Japanese aircraft come straight for your position time after time, and once they get there they go past by a mile or two and then head back home (if they've not spotted you that is). Almost as if they're being vectored straight at the sub every time.

I'm currently in the Celebes Sea chasing down a reported task force. Every hour or so a flight of aircraft comes from the line of the task force directly towards my sub's position and then back again... I alway have plenty of time to crash dive to 150 feet or so, thanks to radar picking them up early so I know they've not seen me yet, so why do they only fly towards my position?

As for allied aeroplanes, I've watched that Midway battle three times now and I've not seen one plane hit a Japanese ship at all! I thought Midway was supposed to be where the US pounded the Japanese carrier force...

Oh and finally... Lancasters? With stars on? The USA only wished they could have Lancs in 1941! ;) ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

The most annoying thing about the planes is the AI setup. Japanese aircraft come straight for your position time after time, and once they get there they go past by a mile or two and then head back home (if they've not spotted you that is). Almost as if they're being vectored straight at the sub every time.

I'm currently in the Celebes Sea chasing down a reported task force. Every hour or so a flight of aircraft comes from the line of the task force directly towards my sub's position and then back again... I alway have plenty of time to crash dive to 150 feet or so, thanks to radar picking them up early so I know they've not seen me yet, so why do they only fly towards my position?

As for allied aeroplanes, I've watched that Midway battle three times now and I've not seen one plane hit a Japanese ship at all! I thought Midway was supposed to be where the US pounded the Japanese carrier force...

Oh and finally... Lancasters? With stars on? The USA only wished they could have Lancs in 1941! ;) ;)



This game gets stranger and stranger. I'm on my second patrol in the Celebes Sea and have not encountered one aircraft:hmm:

[FoddaUK]

16th Feb 1942. Just got in there and had a task force reported to me travelling ESE from the NE of the sea. It's within range so I thought I'd plot an intercept. Only thing is I can tell how far the TF has travelled along its own plot line because of the start and end points of the aircraft flights according to my SD radar.

Looks like a carrier force to me due to the number of flights. Now if only these planes would leave me alone long enough to be able to intercept...

[Onkel Neal]

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

Where'd you get your hands on those? I've been looking for genuine patrol reports to use as reference for my Journal project. Can you order them directly from the National Archives, even if you aren't a US Citizen?

Sorry for the hijack, this caught my attention.

Cheers.

All the ones I have, various subvets have sent them to me. They went to the Archives to get copies I think.

[Seadogs]

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

Where'd you get your hands on those? I've been looking for genuine patrol reports to use as reference for my Journal project. Can you order them directly from the National Archives, even if you aren't a US Citizen?

Sorry for the hijack, this caught my attention.

Cheers.

All the ones I have, various subvets have sent them to me. They went to the Archives to get copies I think.

Sounds like a great section for the site;) . I couldn't get enough of the ones up on Warfish.

[rascal101]

Can any one tell me who's ass you have to kiss to get air search radar, seems in SH4 the US navy was giving away surface seach but keeping airsearch out of the hands of us mere mortal sub captains!

[Iron Budokan]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

I don't doubt your expertise in these matters. You certainly have more knowledge about this than I do. But was this true for just passing Midway? That's when they start flocking like a swarm of gnats.

And if so, where are they coming from? They always attack from the North. Is there a carrier up there? Has anyone gone looking for it or are these planes spawning out of mid air? I'm just wondering....

Thank you!

[SteamWake]

I just ran a mission out of Pearl.

After refuling at Marshal I wasent 20 miles from Marshal when I started getting hassled by dive bombers.

Where they were coming from is a total mystery unless there was a carrier nearby.

[LZ_Baker]

Even if the amount of air patrols stays the same, something has to be done about them coming stright at you. What I don't understand is this direct vectoring was not a problem in SH3 (as far as I remember, haven't played stock since it came out). Also, as stated before, the bomb loads are way overdone and the big patrol planes go WAY to fast. And the radar, when it acually wants to work, has dead zones.

As for not seeing planes in the Celebes Sea, I has the S-31/Porpoise there in early/mid 42 and I didn't see any aircraft either. They seem to be too busy flying to Midway...

[akdavis]

You're right off the coast of Japan, what do you expect???. It's no differant than trying to go through the channel in SH3 anytime during the war, if the weather is good you will be jumped many times. The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.

Except that's just it, I'm not only off the coast of Japan. It seems that right once you pass Midway island, you get barraged non stop all day long. It doesn't make any sense and is rediculous.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3660/aircoverai1.jpg

;)

[Charos]

A few things to note about that map akdavis.


That is the totality of airbases throughout the war they wont be there all the time.

Secondly the radius of operations on each base is 2,800 Km or a return trip out and back of 5,600 Km.

The only bird that can fly over 5,600 Km is the H8K and that is Ferry range IE: Recon-Carrying no bombs.

Normal range for an H8K is 4,800 Km whilst overload range is 7,200 Km.

Normal range for an H6K is 4,650 Km whilst Ferry Range is 6,580 Km.

So on a normal out and back mission under 2,400 Km radius of operations is required IF the planes are to carry defensive and offensive loads.


A 2,400 Km radius circle provides 18,000,000 Sq Km.

If a H8K can sweep a 20 Km path as it flies it will cover 4,800 Km*20 Km = 96,000 Sq Km.

So for a 2,400 Km radius you will need 188 H8K aircraft to sweep 100% of the area.

As the distance increases from the base the POD (Probability Of Detection) drops off.


With an average POD of 50% for each aircraft you would require 376 8HK Aircraft to sweep 75% of the area (Due to the law of diminishing returns).

If each AC had a POD of 100% (impossible even with Radar) you would still need 188 H8K to cover the area.

That is more 8HK AC than was ever built - and we are only talking about one airbase.

[DanielMcintyre]

Im thinking that they are spawned randomly near your sub to give the appearance of patrol aircraft but are in fact not actually flying a real search pattern. I read that the ship encounters in the game are like this too, they dont leave x harbor and sail to y harbor but are dynamically spawned near your sub to give the illusion of this occurring.

Could be wrong of course.

[Charos]

Im thinking that they are spawned randomly near your sub to give the appearance of patrol aircraft but are in fact not actually flying a real search pattern. I read that the ship encounters in the game are like this too, they dont leave x harbor and sail to y harbor but are dynamically spawned near your sub to give the illusion of this occurring.

Could be wrong of course.


To my knowledge your 100% correct - The computer rolls a probability of a plane finding you based on various parameters then it spawns just outside visual range and attacks.

The aircraft only has two speeds maximum and minimum.

Im guessing alot of H8K and H6K would have been used in a patrol role carrying no bombs but mainly looking for task forces rather than subs - If they pinpointed a sub they would have then called in an attack.

Will have to read up a little more on that one.

In SH4 EVERY Aircraft if it see's you attacks - no recon - patrol AC at all.

[Laffertytig]

i was under the impression that SH3 had ships/convoys moving along assigned waypoints. im a bit shocked that they would remove this feature in in SH4. so we dont really have a dynamic or random campaign just an illusion of one?

the same goes for aircraft i guess

[Gigalocus]

i got that problem pretty bad, and the depth wasn't enough to go effectivly to periscope depth.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3249/sh4img44200714144859ln6.png (http://imageshack.us)

[R3D]

saw every aircraft in the sky exploding on first contact with jap AA in all the mission scenario's, its like every AC in the game is sugar coated in kerosene.

AA guns are way to accurate under A.I control or just to damn powerful.

aircraft in this game are just modelled so amateurish and not a single improvment to be seen over Sh3.:down:

[kiwi_2005]

My first two careers with only one patrol for each one not even finished were lost due to aircraft:88)

[partyboy]

i was under the impression that SH3 had ships/convoys moving along assigned waypoints. im a bit shocked that they would remove this feature in in SH4. so we dont really have a dynamic or random campaign just an illusion of one?

I'm pretty sure SH3 works the same way. At the end of the day, I don't think it makes much difference with the limited range of a Sub in such a huge area. It'd be a waste of resources having the CPU keep track of all the various boats that you'll probably never encounter.

[quadraspleen]

That would be really unrealisitic, Japan did not get radar before the end of '43 and even then the radar wasn't working in 9 out of 10 times.

My bad. I have no idea what Radar the Japanese did or didn't have, tbh. It was just a guess. The patrol I'm in is in late '43 early '44, so maybe I'm just unlucky and catching all of the planes who's Radar did work?!

Knowing this game, the Japanese have invented a plane that is magnetically "attracted" to subs, even ones over 800nm from their home base :) They don't even have to fly it to you; it flies itself...

Is that true about the bomb loadouts being all wrong? Modders?!

[ATR-42]

Like the other thread said, just modify your AIRSTRIKE file in that data cfg folder...

i lowered the values and have found the game much more enjoyable. on any given patrol, i may encounter MAYBE 4-5 airplanes. It was just detracting from enjoying the game before. Not having planes bugging me all the time allowed me to think about other stuff. The planes were just competely out of hand until i modified the file. Now much quieter skys....

:up:

[tater]

I need to clean it up after testing and release it, but all the bomb loads are grossly wrong. The H6K and H8K would likely carry a bomb load for patrol work, though perhaps not a full load. I should look into that. The aircraft bomb loads don;t need to be representative of the type in general, they really need to represent what might be seen by a sub. The Zeros should have no bombs at all, and frankly they should also be unable to radio a report in since they frequently removed their radios because they were so awful.

The ranges are too long for operational use in most cases, and the speeds...

That is interesting, do you know that the plane move at either the min or max speed? Seems like the solution would be to make the min speed ~cruising speed and the max speed ~ cruising speed.

The airattack also needs to be reduced as suggested. What the game really needs is a detection chance and range for the planes based on their alt, the sub's state (surfaced, periscope depth scope up, submerged), time of day, sea state, and the sub's speed. As suggested, the planes always attack, meaning you are always spotted. I think a work around is to set the chances of aircraft such that you only see as many as would actually have spotted you in RL. So if only 1 in 5 planes that flies over would spot a sub on the surface on average, then the aircraft attacks should be reduced 5 fold.

Yes, subs dove to avoid aircraft sometimes many times a day, but had they stayed on the surface we don't know what % would have been detected---the RL crews were better safe than sorry and dove.

[Florida Sailor]

The Jap planes near Midway come from Wake Island. Draw a 1000 mile radius from Wake, stay North of it, and you will see no planes. Same for the coast of Japam, they show up about 1000 miles out.

[Sceptre666]

Like the other thread said, just modify your AIRSTRIKE file in that data cfg folder...

i lowered the values and have found the game much more enjoyable. on any given patrol, i may encounter MAYBE 4-5 airplanes. It was just detracting from enjoying the game before. Not having planes bugging me all the time allowed me to think about other stuff. The planes were just competely out of hand until i modified the file. Now much quieter skys....

:up:

So which values should I be switching, and by how much?

[Drokkon]

Tater be sure to put in surface speed. With these eagle eyed japanese pilots it's hard to believe they had a hard time finding 3 carriers NE of Miday. They seem to see my tiny sub profile very easy from miles away while I'm only doing 10 knots.

[ATR-42]

Like the other thread said, just modify your AIRSTRIKE file in that data cfg folder...

i lowered the values and have found the game much more enjoyable. ...
:up:
So which values should I be switching, and by how much?


Scept, i wont be home till monday night so i wont be able to post exactly until then, im sure the guys here know though. Open the airstrike file with notepad, there were two values in there, one i think was "40" i changed it to 20, the other was 10, i changed it to "05"

you'll see the numbers im talking about when you open the file up. it was a huge help. and not a 'complete turn off' cause you will occasionally stumble across a couple of planes during a patrol. it was a good balance.

[akdavis]

I need to clean it up after testing and release it, but all the bomb loads are grossly wrong. The H6K and H8K would likely carry a bomb load for patrol work, though perhaps not a full load. I should look into that. The aircraft bomb loads don;t need to be representative of the type in general, they really need to represent what might be seen by a sub. The Zeros should have no bombs at all, and frankly they should also be unable to radio a report in since they frequently removed their radios because they were so awful.

The ranges are too long for operational use in most cases, and the speeds...

That is interesting, do you know that the plane move at either the min or max speed? Seems like the solution would be to make the min speed ~cruising speed and the max speed ~ cruising speed.

The airattack also needs to be reduced as suggested. What the game really needs is a detection chance and range for the planes based on their alt, the sub's state (surfaced, periscope depth scope up, submerged), time of day, sea state, and the sub's speed. As suggested, the planes always attack, meaning you are always spotted. I think a work around is to set the chances of aircraft such that you only see as many as would actually have spotted you in RL. So if only 1 in 5 planes that flies over would spot a sub on the surface on average, then the aircraft attacks should be reduced 5 fold.

Yes, subs dove to avoid aircraft sometimes many times a day, but had they stayed on the surface we don't know what % would have been detected---the RL crews were better safe than sorry and dove.

Hell, we don't even know what percentage of those aircraft might have been Allied, or false radar contacts, or maybe even frigate birds...

[clayton]

Section 4
Radar


Two types of radar are at present installed in submarines. Each is valuable for navigational purposes, as well as for their primary purposes. Every advantage of training personnel in radar material, maintenance and operation should be grasped. Either one or both radars are in continuous operation when the submarine is operating on the surface.
In operating radars due consideration must be given to the possibilities of the SD radar signal being picked up by the enemy. Intermittent use of the SD for 5 seconds at irregular intervals of not more than one minute is considered to be fairly safe procedure. Radars require warming up before being put in operation.
While searching with SJ use power training. When contact is made shift to hand training and develop the contact by obtaining range and bearing. Shift to lobe switching as soon as possible. In applying radar information use both the TDC and plot. When the contact is enemy, develop the contact for attack. Take full advantage of visibility conditions, going to radar depth, when necessary, to avoid detection; and then to periscope depth to deliver the attack when the visibility permits periscope observations. In reduced visibility the attack may be carried out undetected with the submarine on the surface. This is more desirable and more effective than a submerged attack as the submarine retains the advantage of mobility and high speed.
While tracking with the SJ radar make frequent 360° sweeps for other targets. Use the P.P.I.
Success in radar tracking demands excellent interior communications. Frequent drills are required to develop the required standards of communications between the bridge, conning tower and plot. Special emphasis should be given to the instruction of talkers.I wonder if the use of SD / SJ attracts aircraft? It certainly did during the war, it seems.

[Blood_splat]

You can edit some files to let them down a little.

But your best bet is to Run Surface at night and sumerged during day. During day Run at 2 knots and your batteries will last till nighttime.

Doing this for my 3rd Career, and I have not yet had many plane problems. Only when I get caught surface in day light.Worked ok until I started to get attack by air at night.:damn:

[supposedtobeworking]

I get attackd at night too--however--I frequently have planes fly by me at close range and not attack like they didn't see me--I was traveling at ahead 1/3--clear weather--rough seas.. does not seem very realistic.

[Blood_splat]

saw every aircraft in the sky exploding on first contact with jap AA in all the mission scenario's, its like every AC in the game is sugar coated in kerosene.

AA guns are way to accurate under A.I control or just to damn powerful.

aircraft in this game are just modelled so amateurish and not a single improvment to be seen over Sh3.:down:Well I believe Japanese planes didn't have self sealing tanks. But heck the American planes blow up just as bad. :dead:

[nikimcbee]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

Thus is historically correct. If you want, I can find examples in some of the patrol reports I have from the National Archives where subs dove 15 times a day due to air cover.

Really? I didn't know that? I thought the planes were totally out of control in SH4. I've seen more planes in ONE mission of SH4 than ALL of the missions I've played in SH3!:shifty: (And That's a lot of missions):huh: So I don't know what to think at this point.

[nikimcbee]

Section 4
Radar

Two types of radar are at present installed in submarines. Each is valuable for navigational purposes, as well as for their primary purposes. Every advantage of training personnel in radar material, maintenance and operation should be grasped. Either one or both radars are in continuous operation when the submarine is operating on the surface.
In operating radars due consideration must be given to the possibilities of the SD radar signal being picked up by the enemy. Intermittent use of the SD for 5 seconds at irregular intervals of not more than one minute is considered to be fairly safe procedure. Radars require warming up before being put in operation.
While searching with SJ use power training. When contact is made shift to hand training and develop the contact by obtaining range and bearing. Shift to lobe switching as soon as possible. In applying radar information use both the TDC and plot. When the contact is enemy, develop the contact for attack. Take full advantage of visibility conditions, going to radar depth, when necessary, to avoid detection; and then to periscope depth to deliver the attack when the visibility permits periscope observations. In reduced visibility the attack may be carried out undetected with the submarine on the surface. This is more desirable and more effective than a submerged attack as the submarine retains the advantage of mobility and high speed.
While tracking with the SJ radar make frequent 360° sweeps for other targets. Use the P.P.I.
Success in radar tracking demands excellent interior communications. Frequent drills are required to develop the required standards of communications between the bridge, conning tower and plot. Special emphasis should be given to the instruction of talkers.I wonder if the use of SD / SJ attracts aircraft? It certainly did during the war, it seems.


I was under the impression the Japanese were totally clueless about radar till mid-late war.

[NKato]

The farthest out I have seen planes from the Japaneese mainland has been around 400-500 miles out. If you dont want the target practice go to PD and drop your speed to 3 knots your battery should last until night fall.
I was attacked about 100 miles off the coast of N. Queenland last night, by a Betty.

And the batteries don't last long enough to do a full day at PD/3kts.

Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. )
I reckon they come straight towards you becuase they have radar, perhaps?!

The planes did not have advanced-enough radar to compete with what the UK gave to the U.S. - so they were doing their flying by eye, instead of doing radar pings. Remember, this is 1941-1944.... There was no radar prior to 1943. (By then, they had developed primitive radar systems for the european theater pilots, they were never brought to the pacific theater if I recall correctly.)

[tater]

The assumption you have to make is that you only get to see planes that spotted you. Alternately, we make some fixed loadouts for them. Make a high % of them unarmed, for example. You still need to dive to be sure, but you don't get whacked as often.

Note that every zero should be armed with no bombs. The H6Ks might be armed with 2 or 4 100kg bombs (sure, they could carry more, but on a routine patrol why wopuld they since they'd likely not get the chance to attack. Instead they report the sighting, and take lighter bombs to increase their patrol range.

tater

[clayton]

Section 4
Radar

Two types of radar are at present installed in submarines. Each is valuable for navigational purposes, as well as for their primary purposes. Every advantage of training personnel in radar material, maintenance and operation should be grasped. Either one or both radars are in continuous operation when the submarine is operating on the surface.
In operating radars due consideration must be given to the possibilities of the SD radar signal being picked up by the enemy. Intermittent use of the SD for 5 seconds at irregular intervals of not more than one minute is considered to be fairly safe procedure. Radars require warming up before being put in operation.
While searching with SJ use power training. When contact is made shift to hand training and develop the contact by obtaining range and bearing. Shift to lobe switching as soon as possible. In applying radar information use both the TDC and plot. When the contact is enemy, develop the contact for attack. Take full advantage of visibility conditions, going to radar depth, when necessary, to avoid detection; and then to periscope depth to deliver the attack when the visibility permits periscope observations. In reduced visibility the attack may be carried out undetected with the submarine on the surface. This is more desirable and more effective than a submerged attack as the submarine retains the advantage of mobility and high speed.
While tracking with the SJ radar make frequent 360° sweeps for other targets. Use the P.P.I.
Success in radar tracking demands excellent interior communications. Frequent drills are required to develop the required standards of communications between the bridge, conning tower and plot. Special emphasis should be given to the instruction of talkers.I wonder if the use of SD / SJ attracts aircraft? It certainly did during the war, it seems.


I was under the impression the Japanese were totally clueless about radar till mid-late war.

So was I, but I found that here: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/sub_doctrine.htm

That was written in 44 so Japan either had it or they used some other means to detect RADAR signals. I really don't know, just attempting to get into the Dev's reasons why!

[Gino]

The doctrine was written in 1944, so the war was still on.
However, after the war the Navy sent a team to Japan to research what capabilities the japanese had, technology wise.

You can find a lot of info here:

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prima...USNTMJ_toc.htm

Section E05 and E07 might give you a clue:

The starting comment in E-05:
"The Japanese were as backward in radio and radar direction finding as in other branches of electronincs. Direction finders, as such, were confined generally to ranges below 20Mc..."

And in E07:
"The Japanese had reached approximately the stage in countermeasures development that was reached in the United States in 1942"

Introduction of the SJ radar: 1942
Operating frequency of the SJ: ~3000 Mc (or MHz if you prefer)

If I interpret the info I found correctly, then the US skippers had more to fear of a radar breakdown, than of being detected by the Japanese. And radar breakdowns happened frequently. I read somewhere, that on several occasions radar broke down, and that the radar technicians literally had all the equipment spread on the conning tower floor trying to repair the #$%% thing (excuse my using French :D ).

Now THAT should be in the game: You're watching your PPI and POOF out it goes...

groetjes,

[Ducimus]

There are a number of ways one can mod the game to address aircraft, and still keep the game from becoming too easy, and aircraft still a threat.

1.) Reduce the number of squadrons that airbases have. (you know one of them have as many as 24 squadrons?)

2.) adjust airstrike.cfg

3.) reduce aircrafts max speed by X percentage so they don't come up on you as fast, allowing a bit more time to dive.

4.) Increase subs diving time (1Min and 10 seconds is a bit too long)

5.) Some combo of all of the above.

[ATR-42]

AIRSTRIKE.CFG -FILE

Maximum Aircraft Range=1000
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.35
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.5
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.7
Elite Airbase Modifier=1
Night Modifier=0.5
Default Air Strike Probability=02
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=10
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=10
Atenuation Factor=10
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10

==================================

As promised guys. BOLD UNDERLINE are the values i modifed.

no glitches and i play the heck outa this game. I find the game way more enoyable now with only the occasional airplane coming out to bug me.

[supposedtobeworking]

Question...aircraft have been ruining my campaign since 1.3 I have gotten bombed 3 patrols in a row and cannot finish one patrol in a career. My watch sights the aircraft and I never have enough time to dive. so I was wondering...how can i modify the dive times to be shorter...and does anyone have any historic suggestion as to how fast the subs typically crash dove to avoid planes? thanks.

[tater]

There are a number of ways one can mod the game to address aircraft, and still keep the game from becoming too easy, and aircraft still a threat.

1.) Reduce the number of squadrons that airbases have. (you know one of them have as many as 24 squadrons?)

Is the number squadrons, or planes?

If it's squadrons... then the number is absurdly high, particularly for CVs (which should then be reduced to 1:1:1 for squadrons, even ignoring the fact that 99% of the time they'd have no planes airborne).

tater

[Hartmann]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.

submarines never have fun shooting down planes, it was only if they don´t have enough time to dive.

shooting down planes as seagulls is ridiculous, all submarines crash dive before the planes arrive ,for this a lot of U.S boats travel submerged during the day.

[THE_MASK]

Read this real patrol log and you will realize what a menace planes were .
http://www.aimm.museum/SS-394/1944-10-19-Report_War_Patrol_1.pdf

[supposedtobeworking]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.
submarines never have fun shooting down planes, it was only if they don´t have enough time to dive.

shooting down planes as seagulls is ridiculous, all submarines crash dive before the planes arrive ,for this a lot of U.S boats travel submerged during the day.

Most of the time I do not crash dive fast enough and kaboom im dead. I was under the impression that you could crash dive as soon as the plane is spotted and get away alive...thats the drill I thought...but everytime I crash dive, it takes my sub forever to get under and I'm toast. I could run submerged all day...though it would be annoying perhaps it would be more realistic, but does everyone else have the same mortality rate when attempting crash dive after sighting a plane? (i.e. do you always get blown up cause you cant get under?)

p.s. btw, anyone else notice the planes justing plummeting into the ocean for no reason at all and bursting into flames after dropping the ordinance?? kind of...well silly.

[EAGLE_01]

"Oh and finally... Lancasters? With stars on? The USA only wished they could have Lancs in 1941!"

WTH would we want those when we had the B-17 and the B-25,-24, and-26?:hmm:

[EAGLE_01]

It has reached a point where it isn't even fun to shoot them down with the AA gun anymore. During the day time, I am lucky if I have to dive less than 8 times because of planes flying over head. Not only is it not realistic, (The planes just fly to your position, every time. Sometimes a little above or below. ) but it bogs the game down a rediculous amount.

Is anybody else sick of them? The dynamic campaign becomes almost useless since there are so many bloody planes constantly dive bombing me.
submarines never have fun shooting down planes, it was only if they don´t have enough time to dive.

shooting down planes as seagulls is ridiculous, all submarines crash dive before the planes arrive ,for this a lot of U.S boats travel submerged during the day.

Most of the time I do not crash dive fast enough and kaboom im dead. I was under the impression that you could crash dive as soon as the plane is spotted and get away alive...thats the drill I thought...but everytime I crash dive, it takes my sub forever to get under and I'm toast. I could run submerged all day...though it would be annoying perhaps it would be more realistic, but does everyone else have the same mortality rate when attempting crash dive after sighting a plane? (i.e. do you always get blown up cause you cant get under?)

p.s. btw, anyone else notice the planes justing plummeting into the ocean for no reason at all and bursting into flames after dropping the ordinance?? kind of...well silly.

Something that always helps is to change course when you crash dive. Always try to present the smallest profile you can. I usually stay up top and fight, but I'm always turning the sturn toward the enemy aircraft. Throws their aim off pretty good:up:

[tater]

A huge problem with the japanese planes is that they are grossly overloaded with bombs. Not a little, at lest 3X, and in some cases 10X the bomb weight they could actually carry. Easier to shack you when a bomber drops 5 500kg bombs when in RL it could only carry 1 (the betty, which in RL can only carry 800kg of bombs).

tater

[Steeltrap]

Fact is aircraft are grossly over-represented.

Having read Wahoo and Clear the Bridge by Dick O'Kane, it was amazing to me how few aircraft they encountered UNLESS they were near a known airbase.

Initial doctrine was to remain submerged during daylight. People such as Morton in Wahoo and O'Kane in Tang to a great extent made this more flexible, based on location, weather, need for stealth and/or need to be going somewhere quickly.

With SD radar working, the likelihood of being jumped by planes was small.

Incidentally, regarding radar doctrine, O'Kane makes several points about how they used it on Tang, including avoiding training it near known radar sites. He also didn't run SD at night at all, and often secured SJ during the day.

For all of this, I believe aircraft are grossly exaggerated in SH4.

One other thing: I assume those people being hit are NOT carrying SD? Otherwise, why wait until you SEE a plane? Get a contact, dive. You don't need to crash dive. SD detects planes out to around 20nm (well, that's advanced SD available in '41 anyway) so I don't understand why people are getting killed. As for planes ALWAYS spotting you, it's not the case: I have watched planes go by while on surface and they've not seen me. Their detection range seems to be around 4nm. If you see they will get within this distaqnce, dive. I find them annoying, but not deadly. I'm yet to use the AA guns....

p.s. Eagle, one reason to want a Lancaster was its bomb load - far superior to comparable US Bombers. For example, a single Lancaster carried almost 3 times the load of a B-17 when the two flew to Berlin from England.

[orangenee]

I'm getting harassed by planes and I'm using SD in '41, it doesn't work at all, no warnings or anything.

[AirborneTD]

No problems at all with a/c since the last couple of patches and some great mods. When entering an area with a known base, I draw a circle radius out from the base about 550 to 600 miles. When I enter that zone, I only run on the surface at night.

With 1.3 and TM 1.4 (and awesome combo, btw) I really can run comfortably on the surface during daylight because my radar gives me plenty of warning. I dive or crashdive to around 100 ft and run submerged until dusk (or at least a half hour).

A/c have really become a non-issue for me.

[CaptainHaplo]

AC with 1.3 nd TM 1.4 are a nuisance - nothing more. I never have to crash dive - normally I just watch their approach and see if they are going to miss me or not - if they are angled off - I can stay surfaced. If they head toward me, just hit the p key, pull the plug and wait till they pass - then wait about 5 minutes for them to pass on the return leg, let em get outa sight and surface again. I often go to flank while submerged because the short run gets charged quick again when I surface. Have yet to ever shoot down a plane - although I have misjudged a couple approaching and had to dive as they attacked. On those - I have seen a couple of planes drop their ordinance and then die - one with no discernable reason - the other actually bottomed out his dive and smacked the water - bounced into the air and then stalled before diving into the sea. Too bad I didn't get credit for him....

[FAdmiral]

AIRSTRIKE.CFG -FILE

Maximum Aircraft Range=1000
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.35
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.5
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.7
Elite Airbase Modifier=1
Night Modifier=0.5
Default Air Strike Probability=02
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=10
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=10
Atenuation Factor=10
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10

==================================

As promised guys. BOLD UNDERLINE are the values i modifed.

no glitches and i play the heck outa this game. I find the game way more enoyable now with only the occasional airplane coming out to bug me.

This is almost how my file is modded too, see below:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Aircraft Range=1200 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.3 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.45 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.75 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=1 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.4 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=10 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=30 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=75 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=50 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hanging around Rabaul in my June 1943 patrol called "Sink the Yamato" I only encountered enough aircraft to make it believeable. Most of the planes came in
after detection by an escort during or after an attack. I got search planes about
2-3 times a day and nothing at night....

JIM

[PepsiCan]

what truly irks me is the fact that I get slowed to 4 compresion EVERY time I get a surface or air contact....oh! did I mention I get them on the same radar? I'm sorry, it skipped my mind.

Why do I pick up surface vessels on my AA radar?


And why can't I manually operate (let alone, turn on) either one? (I've already tried to *click* the little yellow buttion...oh wait, no I didn't BECAUSE IT WAS GREY!...although I distinctly remember installing one at port AND I get those incessant "Contact!" "Contact!" "Contact!" reports.....) UGH!

These patches can't come too soon. Oh wait, yeah they can, I said the same thing about the game, and I got what I wanted, 'cept it has uber-loads of bugs.

Poor buggers on the dev team being hounded by money-grubbing publishers. :down:

First of all, that radar station they modelled in the conning tower; that's your surface radar. The air radar is not a station at all.

Secondly, the surface radar doesn't become available until mid/end 1942. Until that time, the station can be manned but everything regarding radar is inoperative.

[fredbass]

Does the level of time compression you are travelling at effect the distance you would detect planes? If so, then lowering TC would certainly help as it did in SH3.

[Frederf]

It becomes painfully obvious playing the game that the air traffic is dice-rolled and generated while the shipping traffic is actually tracked around the map.

All aircraft generated are flung on a path near enough to your sub that they will spot you unless you make yourself quite hidden. There's no "Hey there's a plane that doesn't spot me." unless the weather's bad? The game decides a plane is attacking you and then it happens.

The aircraft are simply armed to the teeth with 3x more bombs than they should have yet despite this almost always miss and their near misses do exactly 0 damage to you. A 250 lb bomb going off less than a sub length away should at least occationally injure your deck crew and crack a few pipes, yes?

The air attacks are of couse extremely easy to avoid since 99% of people have SD radar. I get a radar contact, exactly 3:30 later I'm being dove at by a zero laden with 100 bombs. After 5 minutes or so he turns around and flys near me heading back where he came from. Hmmm, how coincidental that he happened to choose just that time to turn back (assuming I avoided detection on the first pass, which is possible). I've come down to the point I can wait 2:30 and hit crash dive and watch the homing pigeon through my obs peri as he loses the scent. Twenty to thirty minutes after the radar contact I know I'm good to surface, recharge from 99% to 100% and continue on at cruise speed unharmed.

Air assets have never spotted me while at PD, which should happen occationally when they get really close. The pacific isn't a milk bowl after all.

Overall I would like the following changes to the air attacks:

Strafing attacks by the smaller aircraft.
Reduced ordinance to reality.
Reduced aircraft density to reality.
Blind spots in the SD radar.
Occational aircraft missing me with their eyes.
Increased sorties patrolling over locations I was spotted and expected to go.
Less sorties over backwater, out of the way, locations that threats would not likely be.
Attacks out of the sun.
Multiple aircraft attacks when your position is well known.
Some non-engagement aircraft that you think missed you but instead radio'd your position back home.
Actual plotted routes with airplanes not generated but tracked in their paths like the ships.

[tater]

Some of those suggestions are already there, and others can be modded.

The air bases can easily be modded and added to. The size of the airgroups, types of planes, etc.

The range of the planes can be tweaked. I think all the ranges should be shortened heavily except the dedicated patrol aircraft (and the G4M).

Strafing attacks by the smaller aircraft.

That would be nice. My thought was to mod in a new bomb that was invisible and did no damage---once planes bomb, they will strafe.

Reduced ordinance to reality.
Reduced aircraft density to reality.

The first is pretty straightforward, I have a better bomb load mod out someplace that drops ordnance loads to what they should be, need to search.

Blind spots in the SD radar.
No idea if this can be fixed.

Occational aircraft missing me with their eyes.
Maybe duc can fill us in on this, but I thought the strike % number was the chance they would attack, not the chance you'd see planes. Alternately, it might be that the % is the chances of seeing planes, and the attack has everything to do with the visual AI rules (making you easy to spot), plus perhaps the bomb load. I have a feeling it randomly picks from the available loads, and one of the loads is empty for all planes. You could make more empty loadouts, dropping the % of those that appear that will attack.

Increased sorties patrolling over locations I was spotted and expected to go.
Less sorties over backwater, out of the way, locations that threats would not likely be.
The former happens (repeat air attacks, and the latter is a function of the position and number of air bases—easy enough to change.

Attacks out of the sun.

Doesn't happen, hard to do I bet.

Multiple aircraft attacks when your position is well known.
Some non-engagement aircraft that you think missed you but instead radio'd your position back home.

Both happen.

Actual plotted routes with airplanes not generated but tracked in their paths like the ships.
Not in stock, but totally possible to do.

tater

[Gino]

My 5 cents of info...

In the Appendix of a patrol report it is mentioned what contacts the submarine had made. Engagements I think are very rare if at all. It was more like: Contact on SD, Clear the bridge, Dive, Dive...

Example: USS Cod
First patrol: [Oct 22 1943 - Dec 16 1943] 10 ships 14 aircraft
Second patrol: [Jan 11 1944 - Mar 13 1944] 16 ships 13 aircraft
Third patrol: [Apr 6 1944 - Jun 1 1944] 24 ships 19 air
Fourth patrol: [Jul 3 1944 - August 25 1944] 55 ships 54 aircraft
Fifth patrol: [Sep 18 1944 - Nov 20 1944] 54 ships 117 aircraft
Sixth patrol: [Mar 24 1945 - May 29 1945] 4 ships >170 aircraft
Seventh patrol: [June 26 1945 - August 13 1945]:33 ships Aircraft not mentioned as number but reported as 'few in number'

So plenty of airplanes depending on the area.

groetjes,