This is probably why SH4 medals are not historical correct !

[Drebbel]

Why are the SH4 medals not historical correct ?

Most of you probably already know the answer but it just came to my attention and I thought it might be new to atleast a couple of other skippers as well.

The reason for the non-historical medals is US law:

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000701----000-.html

[CCIP]

Yea, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming :yep:

[SteamWake]

Lawyers... :damn: :damn: :damn:

[Hans Schultz]

its a really vague law, may collectors of US militaria are very worried about this law. Its quite silly IMHO. I hope a "random" modder will fix the medals.

[hyperion2206]

Why are the SH4 medals not historical correct ?

Most of you probably already know the answer but it just came to my attention and I thought it might be new to atleast a couple of other skippers as well.

The reason for the non-historical medals is US law:

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000701----000-.html


I talked to a JAG officer (not Harmon Rabb:p) and he said that you have to ask permission to use these medals but the DOD actually never prosecuted anybody who did not ask for the permission. So you could use the medals without having to fear prosecution.

[Snowman999]

The reason for the non-historical medals is US law:

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000701----000-.html


1. Is a medal a "badge"? Maybe not. The intent of the statute is to prevent impersonation of military uniforms by civilians.

2. What are the noted regulations?

Dozens of games back to the early 1980s have shown US medals in award screens. I have probably eigth or ten Microprose games alone that did so.

[AVGWarhawk]

The DOD is a little busy at the moment to concern themselves with a replica on a computer game. I don't suspect a large outcry by the DOD for using a likeness of medals.

[daft]

Just what I suspected. But where does this leave moddining and user created tools?

[AVGWarhawk]

OK, the only time I could see the DOD possibly pressing charges is for the MOH. The MOH can only be worn by the recipient of the medal. Maybe, just maybe the DOD would do something about it....and that is a big maybe. Now, I know for a fact I can pick up a replica of the Purple Heart at a local store in Maryland. No one is arresting this store clerk or the company that made the replica. Correcting the replica in game should not be a problem.

[SteamWake]

The DOD is a little busy at the moment to concern themselves with a replica on a computer game. I don't suspect a large outcry by the DOD for using a likeness of medals.

While this is quite true I would not be shocked to see pressure brought to bear by "others" forcing him to waste his time on such trivial issues.

[Drebbel]

Maybe the DOD is too busy. But if it is law then any US citizen could use this law to take UBI to court. Or am I wrong ?

[akdavis]

FYI, whether it would hold up in court or not is irrelevant. If the Ubi lawyers think there is even a possibility of the content prompting any form of legal action, then they will bar inclusion of the content. The likelihood of someone taking action or the potential outcome of a lawsuit is irrelevant.

There are other rather clear signs of this in the game...

[davejb]

Well I don't see what all the fuss is about, I've sunk a variety of Japanese ships - from Shokaku down to a trawler that looked at me funny, and I've had some truly splendiferous medals handed down to me by a grateful admiral. Let's see, I got the wound medal, the patrol medal, the golden wazooney, err, I think I got one for spelling...there was a bronze something in there as well I think .... what's not to like?

I got a real medal (well, I got two real ones, but the second was primarily for not getting caught doing bad things) and my real 'went somewhere moderately at risk' medal has a sheep on it - now, call me silly if you will, but I'd much rather have one with a submarine on it than a sheep. I've always considered in game medal ceremonies a bit lame - I mean, if you got 230 volts from the mouse when your sub got nerfed then maybe, but who cares what a bunch of pixels thinks?

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the DOD would have to press charges. But...to what end? Ubi is cautious because some airplane manufactures went after UBI because IL2 was going to put some of their WW2 planes in the game. Same people went after MS for CFS2. This was a company and not the DOD. I believe the DOD would not care one way or the other.

Like I said, I can get a Purple Heart medal, just like the real thing at a store in my neck of the woods.

[SteamWake]

Maybe the DOD is too busy. But if it is law then any US citizen could use this law to take UBI to court. Or am I wrong ?

See my post about "others" above.

[Rykaird]

OK, it's been a long, long time, but I'm pretty sure in one of the old flight sims - either Microprose's F117 Stealth Fighter or LucasArts Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (playing on the US side) - I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. So it isn't unprecedented to use the real medals.

[shad43]

OK, it's been a long, long time, but I'm pretty sure in one of the old flight sims - either Microprose's F117 Stealth Fighter or LucasArts Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (playing on the US side) - I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. So it isn't unprecedented to use the real medals.

This was well before Clinton changed the law

And really whats the diff, wounded medal/purple heart... we know what its for.

[WFGood]

Maybe the DOD is too busy. But if it is law then any US citizen could use this law to take UBI to court. Or am I wrong ?

I think you are incorrect on that. You have to have standing in order to take something to court. In this case, the US DOD would have the standing, stake or person being wronged so to speak, I would think.

[WFGood]

OK, it's been a long, long time, but I'm pretty sure in one of the old flight sims - either Microprose's F117 Stealth Fighter or LucasArts Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (playing on the US side) - I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. So it isn't unprecedented to use the real medals.

Yes, I remember being awarded one as well, but I cannot remember the game.

[Deep Six]

Janes Simulations always had the "Correct Medal"....One of the best games ever...Apache Longbow...had the real deal with medal.....OMG was that a great game...Bought my first full on "Thrustmaster & Throttle" (F16 series)..Cost an arm and a leg in them days solid metal footing...weighed a ton!!!


Deep Six

[WFGood]

Well I don't see what all the fuss is about, I've sunk a variety of Japanese ships - from Shokaku down to a trawler that looked at me funny, and I've had some truly splendiferous medals handed down to me by a grateful admiral. Let's see, I got the wound medal, the patrol medal, the golden wazooney, err, I think I got one for spelling...there was a bronze something in there as well I think .... what's not to like?

I got a real medal (well, I got two real ones, but the second was primarily for not getting caught doing bad things) and my real 'went somewhere moderately at risk' medal has a sheep on it - now, call me silly if you will, but I'd much rather have one with a submarine on it than a sheep. I've always considered in game medal ceremonies a bit lame - I mean, if you got 230 volts from the mouse when your sub got nerfed then maybe, but who cares what a bunch of pixels thinks?

I think for some people it is a matter of 'realism.' Yes, in the real world some medals seem to be given for nonsensical things. I received one for excellence in leadership as a junior officer. (Didn't have a sheep on it though.)

[tommyk]

I guess all you have to do is to ask for permission to include them in the game. I think for the positive use like in SH4 it should not realy pose a problem (send them 10 copies of the Deluxe Edition to judge the proper use).

[Sailor Steve]

SH1 awarded medals that I think were correct.

[Snowman999]

Maybe the DOD is too busy. But if it is law then any US citizen could use this law to take UBI to court. Or am I wrong ?

The citizen would have to show standing. I don't think a court would grant it. A US Attorney would need to take up the case . . . if any are working these days.

I'd settle for a game that used a Purple Heart with Jefferson's profile.

[Snowman999]

FYI, whether it would hold up in court or not is irrelevant. If the Ubi lawyers think there is even a possibility of the content prompting any form of legal action, then they will bar inclusion of the content. The likelihood of someone taking action or the potential outcome of a lawsuit is irrelevant.



Do any of the crew show rank insignia? Officers with railroad tracks, PO crows? We've already seen an obsolete USMC insignia. If the Weapons Officer has bars on his collar that's a more literal violation of this statute than any medal would be.

[Snowman999]

This was well before Clinton changed the law


Presidents can't do that.

And really whats the diff, wounded medal/purple heart...

Immersion. Just like earning dolphins and the award of the Combat Patrol insignia.

"The Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Combat_Patrol_Insignia) is a uniform breast pin worn by officers and men of the United States Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy)'s Submarine Service who have completed war patrols. Such patrols were conducted during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).
The pin shows the broadside of a Gato-class submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gato_class_submarine). A scroll beneath the submarine holds service stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_stars), one bronze star for each successful patrol after the first or a silver star for five successful patrols. Successful patrols are those so designated by fleet commanders.
The Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia is considered a "secondary insignia" and is typically worn in conjunction with a primary warfare badge, such as the Submarine Warfare Insignia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Warfare_Insignia). Personnel eligible to wear other secondary insignias, such as the SSBN Deterrent Patrol Insignia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSBN_Deterrent_Patrol_Insignia) or the Deep Submergence Insignia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Submergence_Insignia), may only wear one insignia at a time according to their personal desire."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Combat_Patrol_insignia

Things like this make the game "real" to those who've served in submarines.

[TheSatyr]

Ubisoft has been burned before,they don't want to get burned a second time...and I don't blame them.

Just the threat of a government lawsuit against them could kill the company.

[SteamWake]

Presidents can't do that.

They dident call him slick Willie for nothing.

[WFGood]

FYI, whether it would hold up in court or not is irrelevant. If the Ubi lawyers think there is even a possibility of the content prompting any form of legal action, then they will bar inclusion of the content. The likelihood of someone taking action or the potential outcome of a lawsuit is irrelevant.



Do any of the crew show rank insignia? Officers with railroad tracks, PO crows? We've already seen an obsolete USMC insignia. If the Weapons Officer has bars on his collar that's a more literal violation of this statute than any medal would be.

I think you may be on to something there. Look at Battle of Midway, I thought they perhaps had not researched military/USN rank and uniform insignia for the game, but this could explain it. It has to be pretty easy to obtain permission though, since hundreds of movies and games have used the correct wares.

[Snowman999]

I think you may be on to something there. Look at Battle of Midway, I thought they perhaps had not researched military/USN rank and uniform insignia for the game, but this could explain it. It has to be pretty easy to obtain permission though, since hundreds of movies and games have used the correct wares.


The test, at least as far back as "Top Gun" has been if the work shows the US military in a truthful, positive light. If it does DoD will bend over backwards through liason offices to aid the producers. They loan hardware, allow access to bases and ships for shooting, and provide on-set technical advisors. "Stargate SG-1" DVD commentary tracks often talk about the Air Force guy who has veto power over things in scripts. Since they want to keep using Air Force gear, ranks, and toys they change whatever is objectionable.

I can't see what in SH4 DoD could have kittens over, except perhaps that mournful opening sequence.

[Chuck B.]

The test, at least as far back as "Top Gun" has been if the work shows the US military in a truthful, positive light.
I can see Top Gun being described as "positive" when it comes to the image of the US military that it emits, but I had to smile when I read "thruthful" :)

[tommyk]

I can't see what in SH4 DoD could have kittens over, except perhaps that mournful opening sequence.

jepp, and I guess they would be happy to see it replaced with an opening like the one done by CaptainCox...

[C-4]

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.


I'm not a lawyer, but does this bar electronic versions of the medals awarded to virtual people who really doesn't exist in reality? I mean, just cause my character in a game has a medal doesn't mean I do, even if I had an imaginative mind.

Also, electronic medals in a game isn't exactly a "colorable imitation", or photograph, or print or impression, one could argue. I think there's a loophole here.

[Mylander]

Ubi doesn't want to/won't do it because of past bad experience with IL-2 etc... Can't say I blame them.

Let an anonymous modder do it - no one is going to prosecute. JAG has many far more important things to worry about. SH IV doesn't put the US military in any kind of bad light. The military would only come out looking stupid and petty if they made a stink. They don't give a rat's @$$ about this.

Mylander

[akdavis]

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.


I'm not a lawyer, but does this bar electronic versions of the medals awarded to virtual people who really doesn't exist in reality? I mean, just cause my character in a game has a medal doesn't mean I do, even if I had an imaginative mind.

Also, electronic medals in a game isn't exactly a "colorable imitation", or photograph, or print or impression, one could argue. I think there's a loophole here.

Would you think that this:

Configurations and designs of aircraft and spacecraft may also be registered trademarks or are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation, including without limitation, the configuration of certain fighter aircraft such as the configuration of the F-16 FIGHTING FALCON, JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER, F/A-22, and P-38 LIGHTNING aircraft.

would apply to a 3D model in a computer game? :arrgh!:

[GSpector]

Actually NovaLogic tried to copyright the use of the F-22 in their Sim so that they could take other developers to Court for using the F-22 in other Sims.

Lockheed had to step in and stated that due to their work belonging to the U.S. Citizens (through use of the U.S. Military), no company had the right to exclusive use of any Military Hardware so any U.S. Developer that wanted to use any hardware could do so.

Now, using the likeness of any of the U.S. Branches is a different matter. And I do believe that's why there is no reference to the U.S. Navy anywhere in SH4.

As for buying copies of the U.S. Medals, why, you can legally buy any and all real U.S. Medals in many Military Surplus stores or here : http://www.usmedals.com with the exception of the CMOH. So YES, the President can make laws (with the support of Congress). As it stand, even a CMOH that's stamped "COPY" on the back is now illegal to own or buy (thanks Clinton).

[MadMike]

OK, let's clarify something here.
First, paragraph 701 pertains to "whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof." This pertains to official badges used by the FBI, Secret Service, Department of Energy, etc. Has absolutely nothing to do with military medals. Read on.

Paragraph 704 states "Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both." Specific section on punishment for wear of MOH not entitled to it are discussed in para (b).

There is absolutely no prohibition on imagery of U.S. medals or insignia on clothing, coffee cups, or in video games... :damn:

Yours, Mike

[fullmetaledges]

You can make a graphical representation of any medal you want, just like you can make a painting of a military person with there awards on. Whomever made the call misinterpreted the laws on this.

[Tigrone]

And, I believe, Drebbel has been court martialed for this sort of scuttlebutt in the past. He is a known agent provocateur. You guys are so dumb. There is nothing that prevents the common and proper rendering of images of US decorations, so long as they do not discredit the decoration. The world is not flat. Ubisoft is selling games right now with such images in them. This is even covered in US Department of Defence (DOD) directives, which are incorporated in the regulations of all the US services. Here is the Army & Air Force extract of the DOD policy directive:

32 C.F.R. § 507.11 Reproduction of designs.
(a) The photographing, printing, or, in any manner making or executing any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any decoration, service medal, service ribbon, badge, lapel button, insignia, or other device, or the colorable imitation thereof, of a design prescribed by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force for use by members of the Army or the Air Force is authorized provided that such reproduction does not bring discredit upon the military service and is not used to defraud or to misrepresent the identification or status of an individual, organization, society, or other group of persons.

The dumb quote Drebbel tricked you with just says that you cannot forge Identification Cards and Identification Badges. It has not nothing to do with this. Dare I say it, it is Off Topic.

It's time for Drebbel to walk the plank. :arrgh!:

[Grunt]

I find the gov't lawsuit excuse laughable. Tell that story to the Call of Duty dev's. Die 20 times on one level and you get the Purple Heart award.

Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive. The awards in SH3 were well done and very dignified.

[AVGWarhawk]

I find the gov't lawsuit excuse laughable. Tell that story to the Call of Duty dev's. Die 20 times on one level and you get the Purple Heart award.

Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive. The awards in SH3 were well done and very dignified.

They need some work for sure. As far as legality issue. There is no issue.

[Drebbel]

Remember this is not the official statement from UBI. But just my 2cts from putting 2 and 2 together.

Drebbel

PS: of course I also consulted my under cover informers

[Sailor Steve]

PS: of course I also consulted my under cover informers
So, am I gonna get paid this time?

[Hans Schultz]

You can make a graphical representation of any medal you want, just like you can make a painting of a military person with there awards on. Whomever made the call misinterpreted the laws on this.

exactly, this law was intended to prevent people from wearing/claiming to have or earn medals that they did not. But the law being so vauge it has hurt the US militaria market and collectors of WWII militaria.

[Limerick]

Let me get this straight......

You can make a game in which a U.S. attack sub commander can surface a U.S. boat with an historical U.S. Navy name and hull number, machine-gun life boats to up your tonnage total but you can't pin a Bronze Star on your Chief-of-the-Boat for saving that boat from sinking?

I hardly believe that the DOD would go after Ubi for the medals.

[Snowman999]

The test, at least as far back as "Top Gun" has been if the work shows the US military in a truthful, positive light.
I can see Top Gun being described as "positive" when it comes to the image of the US military that it emits, but I had to smile when I read "thruthful" :)

I'm with you on that . . .

The one exception to truthful that DoD balked at, that I'm aware of, was "Crimson Tide" (ob submarine ref.) The script involved loss of control over nuclear weapons authority (among other howlers), so the Navy didn't lend any assistance. The resulting mis-mash (stock footage of various subs including a 688, uniform mistakes like the COB wearing an officer's cover, rotating red lights inside the hull, a dog pissing on missile tubes, etc.) still leads to real sub crews watching it in a Rocky Horror-esqe manner.

[Snowman999]

I can't see what in SH4 DoD could have kittens over, except perhaps that mournful opening sequence.

jepp, and I guess they would be happy to see it replaced with an opening like the one done by CaptainCox...

Where or what is this one?

[Snowman999]

Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive.


From what I've read here I'd have to agree. It's part of the overall not understanding US Navy culture and traditions, especially those unique to submarines, that detract from the overall immersion for some vets. Perhaps this can be modded, but it shouldn't have to be.

Earning dolphins was one of the high points of my life. It, and many other things, ought to be in a product that purports to be a sim.

[tommyk]

I can't see what in SH4 DoD could have kittens over, except perhaps that mournful opening sequence.

jepp, and I guess they would be happy to see it replaced with an opening like the one done by CaptainCox...

Where or what is this one?

I was referring to the "The Silent Service Graphic Mod 1.1" made by CaptainCox. I like it very much over the stock opening movie...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110756

[davejb]

You're all just annoyed that only us Brits got a sheep medal.

[Tigrone]

I'm annoyed that the US medals were removed without explanation. This is disrespectful and insulting. I strongly dislike the artificial substitute medals. They are not acceptable.

I am unhappy that Ubisoft has not replied to requests for assistance or information to fully implement the US medals in the game.

Lack of documentation and communication and unexplained reasoning are causing a good deal of confusion and frustration.

[Snowman999]

I was referring to the "The Silent Service Graphic Mod 1.1" made by CaptainCox. I like it very much over the stock opening movie...


Looks like something I'll be getting when I get the game (maybe post 1.2) The stock opening I watched on-line and it was horrible. Milton is fine, but the devs completely missed the spirit and attitude of the USN on 12/8/41. I don't think Euros CAN understand. We wanted revenge, not poetry about the futility of war.

I noticed SH3 didn't get a vid of Berlin in flames . . .