The Lost USS Wahoo / SS-238

[woofiedog]

An article about the discovery of the wreck of the USS Wahoo...

PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii (Oct 31, 2006) – For more than six decades her whereabouts have remained a mystery; her story one of submarine legend – her crew on “Eternal Patrol.”
Yet, after an extensive review of evidence, the last chapters are being written as the Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet declared today that the sunken submarine recently discovered by divers in the Western Pacific is, indeed, the World War II submarine USS Wahoo (SS 238).

Link: http://www.warfish.com/scrap-EP.html

http://www.warfish.com/wahoo-deck-gun-aft.jpg
July 28-29, 2006 - Slightly lower shot showing marine growth on the deck surrounding the gun. Courtesy of Vladimir Kartashev.


Also...
http://www.warfish.com/PWA_103106-navy.html
http://www.warfish.com/gazette.html

[Drebbel]

Please be aware that many people can not read your white text. The Lazyblue theme of this forum has a light back ground.

[woofiedog]

Thank's for the info... Changed!

[Canonicus]

That is way too cool...What a great find! :yep:

[dean_acheson]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.

[Nightmare]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.

My very first career after picking up the the game was in the USS Drum. I then pulled the USS Wahoo on my current career in 1943. Several other people on the forum also have done the same. I think you are just assigned a random boat from the class you've selected so I see no reason as to not get the Bowfin and or the Tang as well.

[Platapus]

If you do get one of the "famous" boats, it would be nice if they gave you a comparative score between your boat and the real boat after every patrol.

[SteamWake]

If you do get one of the "famous" boats, it would be nice if they gave you a comparative score between your boat and the real boat after every patrol.

Meh... you wold beat them easily. Its a game after all.

BTW the black text is not a great choice either for those of us with the old grey backgrounds.

[Camaero]

I just got done reading all about this boat. Cool!

[Mush Martin]

Many years familiar and Yeah I would absolutely loose my coffee
and my monitor if I got awarded wahoo.

I have seen photos (Japanes) of the hunt for wahoo
I Think they may have gotten posted up on SH3
research links I cant remember the site though
Ill have a look.
MM

[Hanzo]

If you could find those Martin, that would be :rock:

- Captain Hanzo

[nattydread]

Man, it almost hurts to see the Wahoo like that. It always stings me a bit to think of that great ship going down.

Its almost like losing someone for years and knowing they are no longer with us, then someone shows you evidence of their demise, and then later on they show you remains. Sometimes I wonder if its easier not knowing.

I havent even been able to check out the links yet...it would seem like seeing a loved on the cold steel slab at the morgue.

[dean_acheson]

Just wiki it fellows, all the info is there.

http://www.warfish.com/scrap7.html

there are some photos of the final attack, there is still some debate on what the heck Mush was doing trying to get out during the day on the surface.

hard to say, but it hurt the boat to lose O'Kane, at least in my book.

then again, I love that man.... Dick O'Kane that is...

[dean_acheson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_%28SS-238%29

[woofiedog]

dean_acheson... Very interesting article and photos... Thank's the link.

Notice the war time edit of the photo... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h42000/h42274.jpg

Some other photo's of the USS Wahoo...

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-w/ss238.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-w/ss238-k.htm

[nattydread]

It wasnt just the lose of O'kane. He seemed to be good trigger man on the periscope, but I think the heart and soul of the Wahoo was Mush. O'Kane himself thinks it was the heavy lose of skilled crew before they left out that patrol...or maybe the patrol before. The Wahoo had about 25% of its crewed removed, with a larger number of them being skilled/specialized crew and officers.

Mush was basically commanding a "greenish" crew when he was likly war fatigued, used to the crew running smoother with less over-sight and IJN ASW improving.

[Packerton]

Really kicks you back into reality...

We may be able to restart when we screw up and stuff....but in real life imagine haveing to die in a steal coffin as it pretty much crushes around you...

[nattydread]

Actually they say the sub doesnt crush in on you. It crushes only until the hull breaches and then you have an almost instaneous, explosive rush of water fill the whole sub. Thats why the subs are always found intact and still shaped roughly as they should.

But yeah, its sobering.

[TheSatyr]

Morton was worn out,had combat fatigue and had lost at least 25% of his veteran crew...including the ones he counted on the most. It's not really THAT big a surprise that she finally got caught on that patrol.

Why he tried to get through La Perouse in daylight is something we will never know...I'm guessing it was just a bad judgement call by a very tired and worn out man. One thing I do know,had O'Kane still have been on that boat at the time he wouldn't have let Morton do it.

As an aside,according to Forrest Sterling ("Wake of the Wahoo") O'Kane wasn't very well liked when he was XO of the Wahoo...the crew considered him to be a bit of a martinet. He seemed to change ALOT between the time he left the Wahoo and the time he took command of the Tang. (Of course,it couldn't have been easy being an exec to a free spirit like Morton was. He spent as much time with the enlisted men as he did with the officers...including wrestling matches in the forward torpedo room...which Morton almost always won. I think he may have been the wrestling champion when he was at Annapolis...I could be wrong though.).

It was a crime to send Morton back out there when so many people knew he wasn't quite right...including Lockwood who did have second thoughts about it...which proved to be correct.

At least one good thing came out of it. After losing Morton,Lockwood made the decision to limit the number of patrols of his sub skippers so what happened to Morton wouldn't happen to any one else.

[Mylander]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.

I am in command of USS Wahoo. Started a new career in '43. Yes, I spit my coffee all over the screen :up: .

Mylander

[secur3x]

maybe someone should email al lthis info to http://www.shipwreckcentral.com/ and try and get the sea hunters to do a dive on it along with james delgato the man who found the bismarck and documented her damage. Maybe they can shed some light on what happened to wahoo and what damage she has incurred. Would be a nice documentry to watch seen as how there documentry on U-251 was quite interesting.

[Mush Martin]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.
I am in command of USS Wahoo. Started a new career in '43. Yes, I spit my coffee all over the screen :up: .

Mylander

Lucky SOB now that should be considered an easter egg.

[Mylander]

And just in time for easter! (Or the vernal equinox, as I prefer to call it) :up:

Mylander

[daft]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.
I am in command of USS Wahoo. Started a new career in '43. Yes, I spit my coffee all over the screen :up: .

Mylander
Lucky SOB now that should be considered an easter egg.

I also got the Wahoo in my previous career. No coffee on my screen, but it was nice knowing the history of such a fine boat. :)

[woofiedog]

Judging by the enemy reports and the battle photo's taken at the scene that day ... the USS Wahoo was traveling on the surface with clear skies and full visiblity range... also with a shallow sea bed under her keel.

A good question is why? At lest wait for darkness of night?

Caught by Coastal Battery guns on the surface... she was damaged in her fuel tanks area and leaving a visible trail of fuel oil on the surface.
When she did dive the shallow sea bed gave her no protection either. The Japanese could still see the Wahoo's hull silhouetted below.

A No Win situation when trying to evade the surface and air units that were there for the final kill.

Sad lose indeed.

Japanese records now reveal that the following ships were sunk in the Sea of Japan shortly before Wahoo's loss; Taiko Maru (2,958 tons) 25 September; Konron Maru (7,903 tons) 1 October; Kanko Maru (1,288 tons) 6 October; and, Kanko Maru (2,995 tons) 9 October. Wahoo was the only submarine which could have sunk these ships.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SubLosses/img/SS_losses-p66.1.jpg
Wahoo's Battle Flag..."Just sight, track, shoot and Sink!" -- D.W. Morton

[woofiedog]

The Battle Report of the USS Sawfish...

Two days prior to the Wahoo’s fatal attempt to exit the Sea of Japan, the USS Sawfish (SS 276) successfully exited through the same route Wahoo attempted.

. On entering LA PEROUSE STRAIT we were fortunate in having terrible weather and passed through undetected. On leaving the Japan Sea, we contacted a small boat, believed to have been a patrol boat, about 15 miles west of the Strait. He trailed us but his speed was insufficient to keep up. The signal station on NISHI NOTORO MISAKI challenged us and kept repeating his challenge for about a half hour. After he challenged us for five minutes, we slowed to five knots and he lost us. When we speeded up to 20 knots, he swung his beam back on us, indicating he was detecting us by sound. The distance to NISHI NOTORU MISAKI at this time was 12 miles.
Two Radar contacts were made in the Strait on what may have been patrols, but nothing was sighted.
Immediately after surfacing on 9 October, with NIJO GAN bearing 290oT, 27 miles, we sighted a plane in what direction at range of 10 miles and dove. Sea was flat. Plane did not drop bombs. Three hours later, about 0930, a patrol boat of PC type arrived on the scene and stopped 3000 yards on our starboard beam and began echo range. We went to 300-372 feet and evaded; the patrol boat did not contact us. He stopped pinging, and commenced listening, after about a half hour. He would stop while listening. At 1140 four explosions were heard and felt, which may have been depth charges or bombs. Having heard nothing since 1200, came to periscope depth at 1430 – nothing in sight. Retired to southeast on first sighting patrol boat until surfacing. Since the patrol boat had our dead reckoning position figured so accurately, it is probable that the plane dropped a float to mark our diving point.

Link: http://www.mackinnon.org/sawfish-4th-patrol-report.html

[nattydread]

It was common to run the strait on the surface. It was usually done at nigh and at pr near flank speed. It was shallow anyway, so a slow submerged transit wasnt considered desirable because it was frequently patrolled.

Also, the strait was mined and mined for submerged targets. You best bet we was to stay surfaced and skirt all the hazards at high speed and in one night under the cover of darkness.

It wasnt so questionable that Mush made the dash surfaced, just that he did it during the day with good visibilty. Some suggests he was desperate and already damaged. He needed to get out of the Sea of Japan and quick.

Now this is speculation, but the oil slick may not have come from a land artillery hit, because I'd reckon a sub would be difficult to pick off. I'd doubt the first hit would hit and if he was transitting at high speed like he should have, he would likly been able to dive faster and get out of sight.

So if he was transiting slow, he was already damaged. If he was already damaged he may have been leaking fuel/oil already, if he was leaking he may not want to stay submerged where he could get jumped while blind and slow. So he knows he is trouble, he runs surfaced, at his fastest speed posssible and trailing fuel/oil which he knows will eventually lead bad guys to him...so he might as well get to deep water ASAP and out of teh heavily patrolled Sea of Japan.

Also, the land artillery likly had surface search radar, so the Wahoo would have known he was being targeted through use of the radar detector once the radar beam fixated on them(I believe he had one, and if not his own radar would have picked up interfernece static from the shore most likly). Now if he could dive and knew he was spotted, we would have...and he could dive, but he didnt. But if he couldnt tell, it may have been due to his equipment being damaged with the rest of the sub. I also think an artillery strike would have rendered the sub unsubmergiable.

[dean_acheson]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.

I am in command of USS Wahoo. Started a new career in '43. Yes, I spit my coffee all over the screen :up: .

Mylander

Exactly when and where did you start your career, I've started and restarted about 25 time now, late 42 early 43 at Pearl and haven't got the Wahoo yet.....

[TheSatyr]

There are two different versions of the Wahoo's last fight. One is the article in the link. The other one is that a Japanese patrol plane sighted a sub running on the surface,attacked out of the sun,dropped a bomb which the pilot believed hit behind the conning tower. The sub then dived and the pilot radioed the incident in after which the IJN sent some pcs and more planes to prosecute the contact.

The only difference between the two is that in one version the shore batteries spotted the Wahoo first,in the other version an aircraft spotted her first and struck her with a bomb. (Which might explain the oil slick if the bomb had hit a fuel tank.).

What I find myself wondering about is why no one used a momsen lung to try to make it to the surface. The water was certainly shallow enough to do it. They could have gone out either the forward or aft torpedo room hatches. Unless both torpedo rooms were flooded in which case they could have used the conning tower hatch as a last resort. The failure of anyone to get out does lead me to believe that there was sudden and catastrophic flooding on the boat before she touched bottom.

As for the possibility that the Wahoo was damaged before entering La Perouse,seems to me that that would have been even more of a reason to try going through at night instead of during the day,unless Morton panicked...and Morton wasn't the type to panic under any circumstances. What if...Morton was already dead and whoever took command panicked and decided to make the run during the day just to get the hell out of there. Which is a thought I've never considered before. If Wahoo had been damaged,lost the radio antenna and the radar antenna...with Morton dead or incapacitated and with inexperienced officers left to run the boat then I can definitely see panic quickly setting in,and poor decisions being made because of it. Course this is all speculation...but it fits the facts known (Which are very few) as well as anything else.

It does look like the passage of the Sawfish put the Japanese on high alert in La Perouse. Wahoo might not have been able to make it out even if the ship and crew were fine and even if they had tried going through at night.

[joshuaj]

Funny,
I have command of the Wahoo and my career name is Richard O'Kane.

[Mush Martin]

all pilots think they hit just behind the conning tower dead center

My moneys on the shore battery

[TheSatyr]

A shore battery would have to be lucky as hell to hit a submarine. There isn't much to shoot at let alone hit when a sub is cruising along on the surface...unless they are at short range. As for shore batteries having radar controlled gunfire in 1943...I kinda doubt that. That kind of thing didn't come into use till 44'...at least in the Navy...and the Army was always a bit behind technology wise....except when it came to aircraft. (On the other hand the Army WAS working on chemical warfare projects and had almost completed the bombs and the aircraft to carry them all the way to the west coast when the war ended. Least that's the claim on the "Secret Weapons of WW2 History Channel series).

Unless somebody builds a time machine and goes back and watches the entire chain of events unfold,we will never truly know what happened out there. All we do know for sure is that the Japanese attacked her...and she sunk.

But,I will say this. O'Kane's theory of the Wahoo being damaged by a circular running torpedo doesn't hold any water with me. I have NEVER heard of a sub surviving a hit from a circular run. O'Kane should have known better than anyone what a hit from a circular running torpedo could do to a sub. The only way that theory would work is if the Wahoo had been hit by a circular running dud torpedo...which might have still penetrated the hull anyway...and once again leave us with a sub with a big honking hole in it. A 21" circular hole in a sub would be enough to ruin anyone's day.

[woofiedog]

USS Herring...

http://goatlocker.org/pics/ss-233.jpg

Japanese information indicates that HERRING was sunk on June 1, 1944, two kilometers south of Point Tagan on Matsuwa Island in the Kurlies. The report sates that two merchant ships, HIBURI MARU and IWAKI MARU, were sunk by American torpedoes while at anchor at Matsuwa. In a counterattack, a shore battery scored two direct hits on the conning tower, and “bubbles covered an area about 5 meters wide, and heavy oil covered an area of approximately 15 miles.” The position of this attack was around 150 miles from the position where HERRING met BARB: the attack occurred on the day after the BARB picked up her prisoner. BARB and HERRING were the only U.S. submarines in the area at the time and BARB did not make attacks reported by BARB and by the Japanese, HERRING has been credited with four ships and 13,202 tons sunk for her last patrol.

Also a story of the USS Boyd DD554 fight against Japanese shore batteries on 12-8-43...

Link: http://pages.cthome.net/Boyd544/Diary03.htm

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/wapa/hrs/images/fig52.jpg
Japanese 150mm Coastal Gun

[TheSatyr]

Ok...you got me there. :D But 2-3 km is what I would consider real short range for a shore battery and any sub captain who gets that close to one on the surface is playing with fire.

[nattydread]

Didnt say it was impossible for a shore battery to hit a sub :) Just damn hard and I'd think unlikly.

There can be injuries to the sub or its systems that would require an exit from the area ASAP. The batteries, the uncontrolled lose of fuel/oil, flooding, etc. One may figure it better to get out sooner than later...or it just could have been a gutsy gamble that failed. I tend to think it was damage or injury requiring they get out in the Pacific before radioing for help or something and getting a pick up.

[TheSatyr]

Maybe it's just me...but if my boat was damaged I'd be even more cautious than normal. Now if Morton wasn't in command of the boat at that time,(Nervous breakdown...injury...death),than I could see the officers of the boat making a bonehead move like that.

Incidentally,does anyone know if there has ever been a rogue wave recorded in the Inland Sea?

[Mylander]

I don't suppose anyone has been awarded command of the USS Wahoo ingame yet? That would have to be the biggest easter egg ever.

'you have been given command of the USS Wahoo'

I'd spit my coffee all over the screen!

Only slightly less cool would the the Tang, Bowfin, and Drum.

I am in command of USS Wahoo. Started a new career in '43. Yes, I spit my coffee all over the screen :up: .

Mylander

Exactly when and where did you start your career, I've started and restarted about 25 time now, late 42 early 43 at Pearl and haven't got the Wahoo yet.....


I started at Pearl in '43

Good Luck,
Mylander

[Mush Martin]

Thanks boys for the info anyway rebooted my career at the
appropriate place and time and came away with wahoo
under dudleys name for my career on attempt#2

thanks lads 238 is a fine ship too I might add.
MM:up:

[mrbassbone]

Many years familiar and Yeah I would absolutely loose my coffee
and my monitor if I got awarded wahoo.

I have seen photos (Japanes) of the hunt for wahoo
I Think they may have gotten posted up on SH3
research links I cant remember the site though
Ill have a look.
MM

You will find them on www.warfish.com (http://www.warfish.com) and included with WAHOO's 7th war patrol report.

[mrbassbone]

IF you go to the following site http://www.usswahoo.org/ which is run by Bryan MacKinnan, who is the Grand Nephew of Mush Morton you will find out a lot more information. He has interviewed participants in WAHOO's last battle.

In a "nutshell"...the Japanese were on the lookout for a submarine to exit La Perouse because of the "trail of sinkings" leading to it. When USS SAWFISH departed on the 9thand was VISIBLY challenged by the lighthouse on Cape Soya, WAHOO was sinking its last ship <Hankow Maru> south of the Straits. They KNEW there were two subs and were preparing for it.

The morning of the 11th of OCtober...the water was super clear and the water temps were in the mid 20's < one reason why no one escaped using Mompson Lungs...too cold>. The Japanese had the following assets in the area Minesweepr #18 and Subchasers # 15 +. In the air were two Seiran Attack Float Planes.

At 0930 Suguru Ichida <radioman in float plane #32> heard an alarm from another float plane <#319>. They had spotted a small lubricating oil slick approx 10 meters by 5 meters. This would have been caused by an amount no larger than the volume of a small water glass. The lubrication oil came from the propeller shafts of submarines and recognised as such.

Float Plane #319 saw the shadow of a conning tower and attacked. She dropped one bomb which may have gone off below WAHOO forcing her closer to the surface
causing her to momentarilly broach so the Japanese could see "the body and wake of a propeller". Another bomb was dropped possibly causing the fatal damage <more on that in a bit>.

When seen...WAHOO had passed out of the Straits but once she was damaged she turned to the west on a course of 315 possibly hoping to head back into the Sea of Japan and perhaps to Russian territory to scuttle or hopefully intern themselves. <this last bit is speculation>.

Float Plane 32 then took its turn dropping more bombs and the oil slick was getting larger. The two planes then kept shuttling back and forth between the attack area and their base at Wakkanai while the ships monitored the area. The slick became much larger and air bubbles were seen as well as larger volumes of oil. Occasionally...they sighted the sub below the surface. WAHOO slowed down and eventually alighted upright on the bottom. Hours later...a huge volume of oil burst to the suface. Since this was after the attacks had ceased...it is speculated that the surviving crew tried to lighten the ship by blowing all ballast and remaining oil to lighten the ship to allow it to surface so the remaining crew could escape. This failed and the remaining personnel most likely ended up dying slowly until the air exhausted itself.

Now for the damage to the sub. Video taken by the Russian divers shows the WAHOO INTACT and upright on the bottom heading westward. Originally it was thought that some of the first bombs had damaged her propeller blades but photgraphs show both props intact although covered with marine growth. The only VISIBLE MAJOR DAMAGE was a bomb hit that penetrated the sub on the cigarette deck aft of the bridge superstructure. The bomb hit was angled downward from port to starboard and blew out portions of the superstructure and hull in the vacinity of the Crews Mess aft of the control room watertight door. This damage was fatal killing all in the area flooding the crews mess and sleeping quarters. Not sure IF the bomb blew out the w/t door leading to the control room. Photopgraphic evidence does not show IF the initial bomb blast damaged the Conning Tower. This is important as the WAHOO's scopes were found to be RAISED leading to the theory that Morton had brought the boat too close to the surface for a "fatal look-see".

The WAHOO remained in some form of control as it fought for its life changing depth and speed to try to evade the asw attacks. How many and where they were is impossible to tell. No one is planning on entering the boat to check nor are there plans to raise her. She is an official war grave.

As for the speculation of her being shelled by a shore artty bettery...even Japanese participants in her sinking are not accepting the Army's report that they saw her. She was on the Russian side of the 12 mile wide strait and out of range of the shore batteries.

Adm O'Kane <whom I had met and corresponded with regularly until his death> wrote of his ideas of what happened to her. He speculated <and wrote in his book WAHOO> that she was damaged by a circular run <while submerged> and was struck in her forward torpedo room. While his own ship was sunk by its last torpedo <he was one of 9 survivors>...his idea was that WAHOO was only damaged forcing her to leave early. I and others disputed that notion and it was not until the Russian video came out that dispelled his theory. Unfortunately it came 13 years after his death so he never saw the pictures of WAHOO.

Hope this helps clear up some of the controversy over her sinking...

Shell
USN RET

There are two different versions of the Wahoo's last fight. One is the article in the link. The other one is that a Japanese patrol plane sighted a sub running on the surface,attacked out of the sun,dropped a bomb which the pilot believed hit behind the conning tower. The sub then dived and the pilot radioed the incident in after which the IJN sent some pcs and more planes to prosecute the contact.

The only difference between the two is that in one version the shore batteries spotted the Wahoo first,in the other version an aircraft spotted her first and struck her with a bomb. (Which might explain the oil slick if the bomb had hit a fuel tank.).

What I find myself wondering about is why no one used a momsen lung to try to make it to the surface. The water was certainly shallow enough to do it. They could have gone out either the forward or aft torpedo room hatches. Unless both torpedo rooms were flooded in which case they could have used the conning tower hatch as a last resort. The failure of anyone to get out does lead me to believe that there was sudden and catastrophic flooding on the boat before she touched bottom.

As for the possibility that the Wahoo was damaged before entering La Perouse,seems to me that that would have been even more of a reason to try going through at night instead of during the day,unless Morton panicked...and Morton wasn't the type to panic under any circumstances. What if...Morton was already dead and whoever took command panicked and decided to make the run during the day just to get the hell out of there. Which is a thought I've never considered before. If Wahoo had been damaged,lost the radio antenna and the radar antenna...with Morton dead or incapacitated and with inexperienced officers left to run the boat then I can definitely see panic quickly setting in,and poor decisions being made because of it. Course this is all speculation...but it fits the facts known (Which are very few) as well as anything else.

It does look like the passage of the Sawfish put the Japanese on high alert in La Perouse. Wahoo might not have been able to make it out even if the ship and crew were fine and even if they had tried going through at night.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I wonder if they would ever consider recovering her after all the surviving relatives are dead? I accept that its a war grave, but the Hunley and the Monitor were war graves too, but their historic importance ensured their eventual recovery. If nothing else, Wahoo is perhaps the most historic US submarine out there, perhaps barring Tang.

surprising how good her external condition is though. Looks like shes almost read to blow ballast and crank up the engines again.:cry:

[mrbassbone]

I wonder if they would ever consider recovering her after all the surviving relatives are dead? I accept that its a war grave, but the Hunley and the Monitor were war graves too, but their historic importance ensured their eventual recovery. If nothing else, Wahoo is perhaps the most historic US submarine out there, perhaps barring Tang.

surprising how good her external condition is though. Looks like shes almost read to blow ballast and crank up the engines again.:cry:

There is presidence for the raising and interrnemt of the HUNLEY. The first TWO times she sank...she was raised and her crew <including her builder and namesake Horace Hunley> were buried in Magnolia Cemetery in Charleston, SC.

With respects to WAHOO and TANG...although WAHOO's site IS known it is in Russian waters...and her condition probably could not handle being raised. TANG's exact position is not known...but it is guessed to be off of the Chinese mainland in 180 feet of water < a known fact from her survivors> between Oksu Island and Turnabout Island...perhaps 4 to 6 miles off the coast.

[AVGWarhawk]

Morton was worn out,had combat fatigue and had lost at least 25% of his veteran crew...including the ones he counted on the most. It's not really THAT big a surprise that she finally got caught on that patrol.

Why he tried to get through La Perouse in daylight is something we will never know...I'm guessing it was just a bad judgement call by a very tired and worn out man. One thing I do know,had O'Kane still have been on that boat at the time he wouldn't have let Morton do it.

As an aside,according to Forrest Sterling ("Wake of the Wahoo") O'Kane wasn't very well liked when he was XO of the Wahoo...the crew considered him to be a bit of a martinet. He seemed to change ALOT between the time he left the Wahoo and the time he took command of the Tang. (Of course,it couldn't have been easy being an exec to a free spirit like Morton was. He spent as much time with the enlisted men as he did with the officers...including wrestling matches in the forward torpedo room...which Morton almost always won. I think he may have been the wrestling champion when he was at Annapolis...I could be wrong though.).

It was a crime to send Morton back out there when so many people knew he wasn't quite right...including Lockwood who did have second thoughts about it...which proved to be correct.

At least one good thing came out of it. After losing Morton,Lockwood made the decision to limit the number of patrols of his sub skippers so what happened to Morton wouldn't happen to any one else.

Well thought out answer and perspective. Morton did demand to return to the Sea of Japan because his first trip proved nothing but dud torps. Lockwood was hesitant but let Morton go. Morton as adamant on going. Morton was also attempting to prove a point on using 1 torp for the kill instead of 3 torps thus bringing down more merchants. Morton was definitly an aggressive commander possibly taking more chances then his lucky stars would allow on his second patrol in the Sea of Japan. Perhaps to prove his point on dud torpedoes. Whatever the case and the reason he was surfaced will never be know with any certainty, but we can say it was men like Morton who inspired others to win the war and be aggressive.

[JackChen]

I guess dud torpedoes really sucks when you went for weeks on a sub. :damn:

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess dud torpedoes really sucks when you went for weeks on a sub. :damn:

No, it sucked when you and 69 other men are depending on them to survive and nothing but duds. Might as well throw tin cans at them. He was slighty PO'd because he was putting a lot of lives on the line for no good reason at that point.

[mrbassbone]

Morton was worn out,had combat fatigue and had lost at least 25% of his veteran crew...including the ones he counted on the most. It's not really THAT big a surprise that she finally got caught on that patrol.

Why he tried to get through La Perouse in daylight is something we will never know...I'm guessing it was just a bad judgement call by a very tired and worn out man. One thing I do know,had O'Kane still have been on that boat at the time he wouldn't have let Morton do it.

As an aside,according to Forrest Sterling ("Wake of the Wahoo") O'Kane wasn't very well liked when he was XO of the Wahoo...the crew considered him to be a bit of a martinet. He seemed to change ALOT between the time he left the Wahoo and the time he took command of the Tang. (Of course,it couldn't have been easy being an exec to a free spirit like Morton was. He spent as much time with the enlisted men as he did with the officers...including wrestling matches in the forward torpedo room...which Morton almost always won. I think he may have been the wrestling champion when he was at Annapolis...I could be wrong though.).

It was a crime to send Morton back out there when so many people knew he wasn't quite right...including Lockwood who did have second thoughts about it...which proved to be correct.

At least one good thing came out of it. After losing Morton,Lockwood made the decision to limit the number of patrols of his sub skippers so what happened to Morton wouldn't happen to any one else.

Well thought out answer and perspective. Morton did demand to return to the Sea of Japan because his first trip proved nothing but dud torps. Lockwood was hesitant but let Morton go. Morton as adamant on going. Morton was also attempting to prove a point on using 1 torp for the kill instead of 3 torps thus bringing down more merchants. Morton was definitly an aggressive commander possibly taking more chances then his lucky stars would allow on his second patrol in the Sea of Japan. Perhaps to prove his point on dud torpedoes. Whatever the case and the reason he was surfaced will never be know with any certainty, but we can say it was men like Morton who inspired others to win the war and be aggressive.

AVG...WAHOO was NOT on the surface. Interviews with surviving members of the Japanese Naval Air and surface units which sank WAHOO told Bryan MacKinnan <Morton's Grand Nephew>...the sub was SUBMERGED nearing the surface. She was caught coming up to periscope depth to take a quick peek which sadly turned out to be fatal.

No one will ever know WHY Morton took WAHOO out in daylight or why she left her patrol area early. It IS possible that she was out of torpedoes and was leaving. It was not only Morton who was tired. It is possible the entire crew was exhausted after a demanding patrol deep inside the Sea of Japan. Again...the oil slick that was spotted by th Seiran Attack Plane was lube oil from the propeller shafts and the amount on the surface would come from a small water glass. Not much but enough to prove fatal to the boat with an alert enemy watching for ANY sign of the expected boat.

Also...you are misquoting Sterling. At FIRST <and under Cdr Kennedy> Dick O'Kane WAS a martinet plus he was under a lot of strain because the skipper was not delegating ANY responsibilities to the exec or other officers. They ALL were frustrated with Kennedy. Under Morton...O'Kane's stature and role was expanded because Morton instisted that everything be run through O'Kane <which was proper>. After the first attack <conducted by O'Kane on the scope> which sank <at the time> a destroyer in Wewak Harbor...the others noticed a change in O'Kane. He was cool and calm under fire...in total control and command. He may have run "hot and cold" in his emotions with the crew...but he WAS the consummate proffesional when it came to fighting his boat...both WAHOO and TANG. His passion, zeal, drive...call it what you will forced his crew to accept and sustain his passion. He and Morton taught all the others HOW to do it and sadly in both cases...they suffered for it. Morton by his death on 11 OCtober 1943 and O'Kane with the punishment the Japanese captors inflicted upon him in prison.

Shell
USN RET

[TheSatyr]

Don't know what source you are getting your info from,but EVERY source I've read says the Wahoo was on the surface when the Japanese first spotted her.

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't know what source you are getting your info from,but EVERY source I've read says the Wahoo was on the surface when the Japanese first spotted her.
Same here. But as history would have it, we will never really know for sure. I suspect we are going on several different accounts and these accounts gotten from the Japanese. From what I read, not all Japanese records were steller.

Maybe at first found submerged and attacked. Evaded and surface later for the final blow? Thus far I can only acertain she is on the bottom. How she got there and the scenerio that played out we can not be 100% sure on.

[mrbassbone]

Don't know what source you are getting your info from,but EVERY source I've read says the Wahoo was on the surface when the Japanese first spotted her.

You have not been listening. My source is Bryan MacKinnan who is the Grand Nephew of Cdr Morton. He has personally interviewed participants of WAHOO's attackers and it is THEY who told him and SHOWED HIM with diagrams and other materials. That plus the evidence from WAHOO herself. She was submerged with her periscopes raised coming up for a quick look. She never made it to the surface except for the momentary breaching caused by an aerial bomb that exploded beneath her.

I met with Bryan in Tokyo where he lives and works when I was there in October 2001.


Shell
USN RET

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't know what source you are getting your info from,but EVERY source I've read says the Wahoo was on the surface when the Japanese first spotted her.
You have not been listening. My source is Bryan MacKinnan who is the Grand Nephew of Cdr Morton. He has personally interviewed participants of WAHOO's attackers and it is THEY who told him and SHOWED HIM with diagrams and other materials. That plus the evidence from WAHOO herself. She was submerged with her periscopes raised coming up for a quick look. She never made it to the surface except for the momentary breaching caused by an aerial bomb that exploded beneath her.

I met with Bryan in Tokyo where he lives and works when I was there in October 2001.


Shell
USN RET

That locks it up for me:yep:. When you are interviewing participants in the attack...rock solid evidence.:up: History books change and usually for the better.

[mrbassbone]

Don't know what source you are getting your info from,but EVERY source I've read says the Wahoo was on the surface when the Japanese first spotted her.
You have not been listening. My source is Bryan MacKinnan who is the Grand Nephew of Cdr Morton. He has personally interviewed participants of WAHOO's attackers and it is THEY who told him and SHOWED HIM with diagrams and other materials. That plus the evidence from WAHOO herself. She was submerged with her periscopes raised coming up for a quick look. She never made it to the surface except for the momentary breaching caused by an aerial bomb that exploded beneath her.

I met with Bryan in Tokyo where he lives and works when I was there in October 2001.


Shell
USN RET

That locks it up for me:yep:. When you are interviewing participants in the attack...rock solid evidence.:up: History books change and usually for the better.

Another link is the one Bryan runs: www.usswahoo.org (http://www.usswahoo.org) and once there scroll down to THE WAHOO: HER LIFE AND TIMES. There you will find the information you seek...time line, photos, maps and interviews.

Shell
USN RET

[dean_acheson]

I hate to pound a dead horse, but can anybody who has the Wahoo tell me where and when they got it?

I'm still trying to get it w/o success.

Trying mid-late 42 out of Pearl...

[Mush Martin]

Excellant report and thanks my cynicism of the flyboys is withdrawn
that from the description sounds like a Textbook perfect drop on
a sub at Peridepth.

[wahoo]

Hey Shell,

I am going to Pearl Harbor 11Oct 2007 for the solemn 64th anniversary
to be held on the USS Bowfin.
Are you going also?

It should be quite a tear jerker, as the USS Wahoo has a special place in
history and with me.

[mrbassbone]

Hey Shell,

I am going to Pearl Harbor 11Oct 2007 for the solemn 64th anniversary
to be held on the USS Bowfin.
Are you going also?

It should be quite a tear jerker, as the USS Wahoo has a special place in
history and with me.

I have been invited as a guest of Bryan MacKinnon as well as from the BOWFIN Staff <my wife and I are Charter Life Members>. It all depends on my schedule both at work and the planning of my upcoming tour with the Mantovani Orchestra.

When we were stationed at Pearl, my wife and I both reenlisted onboard the Bowfin in the Control Room. I worked on the boat for two years in my off duty times.

Shell

[wahoo]

[quote=mrbassbone][quote=wahoo]Hey Shell,

Thats a good question, I forgot to ask, do they need to get you an 'invite'
to be at this ceremony?

[wahoo]

I just got back from Hawaii and Pearl Harbor, attended the Official
Wahoo ceremony.
It was a week to remember
We all went on the tours Arizona, Uss Missouri, and the new air museum.
Then Thursday 11Oct we went to the Bowfin sub museum, where they unveiled a model of the USS Wahoo, I was then lucky to get a first hand
guided tour from Jim Allen, a sailor on the Wahoo's first 3patrols. We then
boarded the USS Bowfin sub and he showed me what he did on the Wahoo.
We then attended the ceremony in front of the Bowfin, The Admiral spoke first, then they had the 'wreath' ceremony, the ringing of the bell was next,
they named the sailors in alphabetical order, and if a family member was there, they got to ring the bell, if not the chief rang it for the lost sailor,
we then had a prayer, and the 21gun salute , and then taps.
There was not a dry eye there, and mine were like a faucet.
The most moving ceremony I have ever been to.
I got to meet everyone there, including Doug and Edwina Morton, the son and daughter of the famous Mush Morton.
Jim Okane, the son of the famous Dick Okane.
Jim Allen and his wife, one of the remaining sailors who actually was on board the Wahoo for the first 3patrols.
A week to remember:sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[kikn79]

I just got back from Hawaii and Pearl Harbor, attended the Official
Wahoo ceremony.
It was a week to remember
We all went on the tours Arizona, Uss Missouri, and the new air museum.
Then Thursday 11Oct we went to the Bowfin sub museum, where they unveiled a model of the USS Wahoo, I was then lucky to get a first hand
guided tour from Jim Allen, a sailor on the Wahoo's first 3patrols. We then
boarded the USS Bowfin sub and he showed me what he did on the Wahoo.
We then attended the ceremony in front of the Bowfin, The Admiral spoke first, then they had the 'wreath' ceremony, the ringing of the bell was next,
they named the sailors in alphabetical order, and if a family member was there, they got to ring the bell, if not the chief rang it for the lost sailor,
we then had a prayer, and the 21gun salute , and then taps.
There was not a dry eye there, and mine were like a faucet.
The most moving ceremony I have ever been to.
I got to meet everyone there, including Doug and Edwina Morton, the son and daughter of the famous Mush Morton.
Jim Okane, the son of the famous Dick Okane.
Jim Allen and his wife, one of the remaining sailors who actually was on board the Wahoo for the first 3patrols.
A week to remember:sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

I am jealous. Work/family did not permit me to attend, but I would have loved to. I kept up to date via the blog of the Warfish.com admin and just reading the text of the Admiral's speech caused me to tear up. It sounds like it was a fitting memorial for such a heroic crew.

Thank you for the report from there.

Chuck

[klh]

Interesting story. Thanks for posting. It makes me appreciate even more what that generation did for us.


Please be aware that many people can not read your white text. The Lazyblue theme of this forum has a light back ground.

And the black text you're using now doesn't show up too well on the default theme which has a dark grey background. :rotfl:

[wahoo]

I just found that the Honolulu Advertiser was there taking pictures, and I am
in one of them!!! In back of Doug Morton and Edwina Morton, son and daughter
of the famous Mush Morton.......
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Oct/12/ln/wahoo.html


:up: :up:

My 15 minutes of fame!!!!!

[Hartmann]

The truth could be in the log book of the boat.

Could be possible raise a war grave ?? in the kursk accident the boat was raised, but it not was a war lost. :hmm:

[odjig292]

I'm grateful that this thread got bumped back to the top of the list. I just finished reading Unrestricted Warfare - How A New Breed Of Officers Led The Submarine Service in World War II that is one of the best books on Morton and O'Kane that I have ever read. It an old book (2000) but O'Kane and numerous other veterans have contributed to it so it appears to be first class. I recommend it highly if you play SH4 because it talks about the agressiveness of the US skippers in wiping out the Japanese merchant fleet, as well as the boredom of waiting for targets.The book says that the Japanese were plotting the sinkings of the Wahoo's ship victims and it was obvious that the Wahoo was heading for the Strait. They set up a special watch for the sub. Plane #319 spotted the Wahoo as it was exiting the strait underwater and dropped the bomb as described by Dean Acheson, The Satyr, AVGwarhawk and especially Mr. Bassbone. The pictures were great. I wiah I could have been with Wahoo going back the USS Bowfin. I've been there but not in such illustrious company. What a treat. This thread has been most interesting and I thank all of the people who contributed. It rerally makes histroy and the game more interesting.

[TheSatyr]

After some recent reading I believe I now understand why Morton went through La Perouse Straight during the day instead of at night. The first time he went to the Inland sea he went through the Strait at night both ways and ran into very few contacts.

My guess is that Morton went through during the day simply due to the fact that from past experience he wasn't expecting to run into much in the way of ASW patrols,Plus he would have better visibility during the day than at night.

It was just a lousy break that an aircraft spotted the Wahoo while Morton was bringing her up for a periscope scan. It was even a lousier break that that aircraft actually hit her with a bomb.

From looking at what happened from various angles,it now looks like Wahoo's luck just ran out. Morton made the kind of decision you would expect from a man like him and it might have payed off if it wasn't for a VERY lucky Japanese pilot.

I still believe that Morton was worn out and never should have been sent out again,but now I believe he made his choice based on the best information he had at the time. It WAS a gutsy move,but gutsy moves are what Morton is famous for.

[mrbassbone]

The pictures and the video of the dives that I have <courtesy of Bryan McKinnon> show that both periscopes WERE up and that WAHOO was approaching periscope depth for a "look-see" when she was first spotted by the Japanese planes.

I do not believe that the first bombs actually hit her but exploded beneath the boat forcing it up closer to the surface. WAHOO lies in approx 210 feet of water so had she NOT come to the surface but remained deep, she might have made the transit safely.

Like some of the Japanese NAVAL personnel...I do not believe WAHOO was on the surface and forced under by shore artty. The strait is pretty wide and for a shore battery to see...let alone fire on her sounds like "someone wanting a piece of the glory".

IF you have seen the photo of WAHOO's return to Pearl Harbor after her 3rd patrol which shows Dick O'Kane stand aft of the RT Antenna you will be able to follow the next bit.

The bomb that FATALLY holed WAHOO hit where O'Kane's foot rests and angled down from Port to Starboard. It blew out most of the cigarette deck just aft of the RT Antenna and took out the bulkhead between the galley and control room and exiting out the starboard side. The conning tower appears to be undamaged according to the Russian divers but there is no way WAHOO could survive such a hit.

It is possible that crew forward and aft of those two major areas survived the explosion but there would be no way to escape from the boat. The waters were freezing cold and any possible attempt to surface the boat would be "next to impossible" <IMO> as the control room controls were destroyed in the blast and flooding of the compartment.

I am not sure that any attempt to escape via Momsen Lungs would have been tried to to the depth <they actually could have survived an ascent from 200 feet> as the fear of the depth plus the cold water would have been enough to kill them before they reached the surface.

I was supposed to be at Pearl for the ceremonies but was unable to get the time off from work. All the places talked about on the www.warfish.com (http://www.warfish.com) blog I had been to in my 4 years stationed at Pearl Harbor from 1977-1981. I am a "Plank Owner" of USS BOWFIN's restoration crew as well as a Charter Life Member of the Pacific Fleet Submarine Memorial Association which runs her. I also had the pleasure to meet with Bryan McKinnon <Mush Morton's Grand Nephew> while I was in Tokyo in October of 2001.

All the best.....

Shell aka MrBassBone

[TheSatyr]

The question I have is that from what I've read,the Wahoo was still manuevering and trying to avoid the D/Cs at least for a while after the bomb hit.

From what your sources tell you did the Wahoo bottom out after being struck by the bomb or was she still mobile,at least for a short time?

(You seem to have a hell of alot better and more factual information than anything I've read about it over the years).

[AVGWarhawk]

Hello Mrbassbone! First time I dropped in on this thread since it was brought up again. I was wondering if you were here. I remember the last time this thread was up you were in it and brought all your paperwork with you concerning the Wahoo. Glad to see you again! All my best to you!

[mrbassbone]

Actually they say the sub doesnt crush in on you. It crushes only until the hull breaches and then you have an almost instaneous, explosive rush of water fill the whole sub. Thats why the subs are always found intact and still shaped roughly as they should.

But yeah, its sobering.

That is not true. The reason a sub or any vessel that is crushed in the depths is because of the air trapped in the compartments. IF the vessel is flooded near the surface, it will retain it's shape. HOWEVER...if a vessel is not flooded throughout...once it reaches "crush depth"...it will implode upon itself. Look at the Titanic for one. The bow section is fairly intact as it was flooded at the surface when it sank. The stern section is crushed in on itself as it was NOT through flooded and when the pressure became too great...it imploded.

Two ships to look at. USS YORKTOWN sunk at Midway appears to be intact on the bottom. I believe it lies deeper than Titanic and yet it is still recognizeable. USS GRUNION lost in Alaska off of Kiska island is crushed and lies in "only" 1000 feet of water. The pictures show some "normal" features and others show jumbles of crushed metal.

Another reason...some of the recently located subs <including WAHOO> lie in somewhat shallow water. USS LAGARTO located in the Gulf of Siam is mostly intact even though she sustained fatal damage to her forward torpedo room. She lies somewhere between 110 and 175 feet of water. WAHOO lies in 210 feet of water and retains her shape as she was not totally destroyed by the bombs and depth charges.

USS PERCH was located as well...but there have not been many pictures released of her condition. We know she was scuttled after being heavily shelled on the surface.

[mrbassbone]

The question I have is that from what I've read,the Wahoo was still manuevering and trying to avoid the D/Cs at least for a while after the bomb hit.

From what your sources tell you did the Wahoo bottom out after being struck by the bomb or was she still mobile,at least for a short time?

(You seem to have a hell of alot better and more factual information than anything I've read about it over the years).

I do not believe WAHOO's fatal bomb damage occurred early in the attack. She was being conned and under control for several hours. However...she WAS damaged as the narratives state that "more bubbles and oil" became noticeable after several attack runs.

She was located as she was heading EAST to exit Soya Strait but ended up turning WEST and lies in a westerly heading now. She was most likely "bottomed" because she became too heavy from water entering the boat. It is "believed" by some of her former officers that the big gush of oil was from a last ditch attempt to lighten the boat to bring her to the surface in the hopes of being able to abandon the boat and then scuttle her. It was not to be. From the damage sustained...some <but not all> died quickly. The rest probably died when the air ran out.

[mrbassbone]

After some recent reading I believe I now understand why Morton went through La Perouse Straight during the day instead of at night. The first time he went to the Inland sea he went through the Strait at night both ways and ran into very few contacts.

My guess is that Morton went through during the day simply due to the fact that from past experience he wasn't expecting to run into much in the way of ASW patrols,Plus he would have better visibility during the day than at night.

It was just a lousy break that an aircraft spotted the Wahoo while Morton was bringing her up for a periscope scan. It was even a lousier break that that aircraft actually hit her with a bomb.

From looking at what happened from various angles,it now looks like Wahoo's luck just ran out. Morton made the kind of decision you would expect from a man like him and it might have payed off if it wasn't for a VERY lucky Japanese pilot.

I still believe that Morton was worn out and never should have been sent out again,but now I believe he made his choice based on the best information he had at the time. It WAS a gutsy move,but gutsy moves are what Morton is famous for.

I am not sure I agree with you on why she tried to leave during the day. WAHOO was first "discovered" by a trail of lubricating oil which left a slick on the surface. The Seiran aircraft noticed the slick before they noticed the shadow of the boat as it was climbing up to periscope depth.

Morton would have expected asw craft to be in the area as he practically advertised his approach with the two attacks prior to his attempting to leave. They were like "bread crumbs" leading up to La Perouse Stait.

Why he did not wait for sunset and night to make either a surface dash or submerged exit will never be learned. I do NOT believe any report that would have said they were on the surface and then submerged. That was insanity. The waters were cold and clear and the skies were clear as well. HAD THEY STAYED DEEP...I beleive they would have made it out.

[sunvalleyslim]

thanks for the info mrbassbone, it sounds like a correct assumption................:up:

[wahoo]

Everyone that was there for the ceremony received a CD copy of the
USS Wahoo video that the Russian divers took. It shows where the bomb
hit, the damage, and the final resting spot of this great sub.
I think there are still copies available, they are available at the USS Bowfin
museum, there are also Wahoo T-Shirts that are on sale, the donations
benefit the museum.

[-Pv-]

Aircraft started dropping bombs on an already damaged Wahoo starting 9:20 and dropped 40 bombs by the time they stopped at 16:25. The pilot(s) observe the sub is still moving slowly until it stopped producing a wake around 13:30. During this time it was also attacked by up to three ships with depth charges. What caused the initial slick is still debated whether it was shore battery or hitting mine. Condiitons were good for gunnery and they were also near the mine field when the boat changed direction possibly trying to make for Russian waters. By this account this boat was fighting for their lives for over four grueling hours. Could the shore battery have forced the Wahoo to blunder into a mine? Mines are very powerful and I boubt it would have survived one, but what do I know?
-Pv-

[mrbassbone]

Aircraft started dropping bombs on an already damaged Wahoo starting 9:20 and dropped 40 bombs by the time they stopped at 16:25. The pilot(s) observe the sub is still moving slowly until it stopped producing a wake around 13:30. During this time it was also attacked by up to three ships with depth charges. What caused the initial slick is still debated whether it was shore battery or hitting mine. Condiitons were good for gunnery and they were also near the mine field when the boat changed direction possibly trying to make for Russian waters. By this account this boat was fighting for their lives for over four grueling hours. Could the shore battery have forced the Wahoo to blunder into a mine? Mines are very powerful and I boubt it would have survived one, but what do I know?
-Pv-

Your first sentence is not entirely correct. Radm O'Kane "surmised" in his book WAHOO that she was damaged from a circular run somewhat akin to the loss of his USS TANG...but there is no actual proof that she was damaged when she was sighted. Subs LEAK....and the lubricating oil slick that proved to be her undoing could have been from one such leak or from her bilges. The amount to cause the slick would have been no more than the contents of a standard 12 ounce glass.

Japanese Naval Veterans who were there dispute the "claims" of a hit from one of the shore batteries let alone even being fired upon by them. They felt it "smacked" of "hey...lets take some credit as well" instead of being a reality.

As for striking a mine...I doubt that...based on reports from survivors from other subs who were struck by mines on the surface and sunk. They were fortunate to be on the surface and survive. No one ever survived from a mine explosion while submerged. Even O'Kane's speculation of WAHOO "surviving a torpedo explosion hitting the forward room while submerged brought a lot of raised eyebrows to those who read it. His own ship TANG sank by the stern immediately as her aft engine room, manouvering room and aft torpedo room flooded from the explosion. The only thing that prevented the sub from TOTALLY SUBMERGING at that time was the depth. Her stern was on the bottom in 180 feet of water leaving her bow "bobbing like a buoy". If the waters had been deeper, she would have completely been gone from the get-go. She only submerged when MM2 Clayton O. Decker manually flooded the forward banks allowing her to submerge to the bottom on an even keel.

When first sighted WAHOO was heading EAST. After some of the initial attacks, she turned WEST in a probable attempt to clear the straits for deeper waters and perhaps to try for Vladivostok. Who knows. She rests in a westerly heading to this day.

The fatal Bomb blast most likely came late in the battle. Based on where it hit and the angle it took...it took out the bulkhead between the crews mess and the control room. As I speculated in earlier posts....those men died very quickly. Others in the conning tower, forward rooms and perhaps stern rooms most likely died from loss of oxygen. We will never know and truly...I do not want to find out. She is a grave and let her crew rest peacefully.

Shell
USN RET

[mrbassbone]

THE FOLLOWING IS SOMETHING I PUT TOGETHER FOR THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE LOSS OF USS TANG ON 25 OCTOBER 1944. Some of it is taken from CLEAR THE BRIDGE by O'Kane...some from my talks with Jesse DaSilva and Clayton O. Decker:

Like a Lioness stalking her prey, she approached silently gliding along the surface of the water. Heading directly at her target at a speed which prevented ripples from forming at her bow and stern. 1,500 yards...1,400 and the range slowly decreased to less than 1,000 yards when the command "Stand by below!" was given. "Ready below" came the cry. "Fire!" was shouted from the bridge and the torpedo was sent out straight as an arrow to its target now 900 yards away. "Stand by below!" was again called bring the prompt "Ready below!"....

The time is 0240 on the morning of 25 October 1944 and the location is somewhere off the coast of China between Oksu and Turnabout islands. The ship is USS TANG SS-306 and on her bridge CDR Richard H. O'Kane has given the order to fire 23 times previously on this 5th patrol in the Formosa Straits with results that were spectacular to say the least. What happens next is again spectacular but not in the way he expected....

"FIRE!".....the torpedo just yards out from the sub suddenly breaks to the surface and and turns sharply to the left porpoising off the bow of the sub.

"ALL AHEAD EMERGENCY!....RIGHT FULL RUDDER!" is shouted in the hopes to create a fishtail maneuver to move the sub out of the torpedo's turning circle. In 10 seconds from it firing it reached it's maximum distance from the sub of 20 yards and started back towards TANG. There was only seconds to get out of the way.

"LEFT FULL RUDDER!' was ordered in order to move the stern out of the way. Dark black smoke belched from the exhausts of the 4 overloaded diesels and the screws churned up the water as the crew fought to crawl out of the path of the lethal fish. The problem was moving a ship the length of a football field at harbor speed away from a "suddenly careening speedboat".

A devastating detonation obliterated any hopes of that as the 24th and final fish USS TANG would ever fire came back to hit her near the bulkhead between the after torpedo room and the manouvering room. TANG immediately started to sink by the stern as her after 3 compartments and ballast tanks 6 & 7 flooded.

"CLOSE THE HATCH!" was shouted but there was no time to do so as the men topside were washed off the bridge as it sank beneath the waves leaving only the bow bobbing on the surface like a buoy.

The lookouts strapped in to their shears went down with no chance to escape as the others floated out into the swift waters.

Below decks men no one would survive from the last three compartments as the died in the explosion or were swiftly drowned. Men were able to make their way into the crews mess from the forward engine room and were able to close the hatches between both the engine room and the control room keeping them from drowning but not sure IF they would be able to make it out of the boat.

In the flooded conning tower which was approximately 90 feet below the surface, LT Larry Savadkin was able to find breathing room and was able to get out of the flooded compartment and took refuge under the bridge superstructure. There he found another sailer whom he tried to help to the surface. LT Savadkin made it up but RM-1 Ed Bergman did not.

In the control room, MM-2 Clayton O. Decker manually was able to open the ballast tanks still filled with air and was able to bring the bow down to the bottom and TANG settled on an even keel 180 feet below the surface.


Back in the crews mess, the men noticed that the water level was above the eye port in the hatch but not to the level of the bulkhead flappers. Taking a chance that the water was not deep enough to drown them, they first opened up the storage room hatch in the mess room floor and then opened the hatch. When the waters smoothed out, they were able to make their way to the forward torpedo room. Once there they joined perhaps 40 men who might be able to escape from the sub using momsen lungs.

On the surface, CDR O'Kane, and 3 others struggled to maintain themselves. O'Kane was by himself as was LT. Savadkin. Chief Boatswain Liebold and RM-1 Caverly kept each other awake and afloat.

Below in the forward torpedo room, appempts were made to escape using the lungs. The first attempt failed with one officer drowning and the rest returning to the boat. A second attempt was made and in this one Clay Decker made his way to the ladder. His best friend who would not try as he could not swim noticed a wire on the exhaust valve of Decker's Lung. He removed the wire and Clay ultimately became the first man to escape from a US sub using that equipment. The others in his party did not as their exhaust valves most likely still had that wire attached and as they ascended towards the surface air embulisms would have developed.

In the end....five men made the escape from the sub to join O'Kane and the others in captivity for the duration of the war. O'Kane was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions and the other surviving men each were awarded Silver Stars and other awards.

We honor the memory of USS TANG and her crew lost "tonight" 63 years ago.

[-Pv-]

I was referencing the Japanese narrative of the battle in my comments. If you look at the air photos taken of the Wahoo and ships attacking it, you'll realise this wasn't a slick caused by a cup of oil or normal loss. Any sub trailing a slip as large as this could not expect to come home when in the immediate area of hostile and attacking forces. If all our subs belched oil like this as a normal leak, none of them would have come home.
http://www.emackinnon.com/wahoo-final-battle-photos-1.jpg
http://www.emackinnon.com/wahoo-final-battle-photos-2.jpg
Narrative with above pics:
http://www.emackinnon.com/Wahoo-Final-Battle-Report.html

What caused this unusual leak? We'll probably never know.
What weapon actually sunk the Yahoo? Shore battery, air bomb, depth charge, mine?
I personally would rule out the mine simply from reasonableness. Other than that, speculation. All we know for sure is air bombs and depth charges were both used on the boat.
I would further speculate rather than surrender to the Japanese, there was a period during which the boat was still manouverable to some extent and the crew attempted other options, but the circumstances of their tell-tail trail and over-whelming enemy forces brought to bear ended all options.
-Pv-

[GerritJ9]

The oil slick could, in theory, have come from the bilges........ but then somebody would have to actively pump the contents overboard- foolish, to say the least, in daytime, especially when close to a hostile shore. The prop shaft seals are a possibility, but to produce a slick like that they would have to be leaking far, far more than a glass of oil. Most likely source for such a trail would be a leak of diesel fuel- a leaking bunker is the most likely explanation.

[mrbassbone]

By the time the ships in the picture arrived...the damage to WAHOO was done. The PILOT who first noticed her saw a small oil slick NOT the larger one as shown in the photographs.

The charts that accompany the account from the pilots indicated this. What the photos show IS most likely bunker oil which is heavier. I still maintain that the amount of oil which led to her DISCOVERY was an amount no larger than that in a drinking glass. And that is what the surviving attack members told Bryan. I will go with their details anytime.

[TheSatyr]

By the time those photos were taken,the Wahoo had been taking a pounding from the ASW units. I have no doubt that the oil slick in those photos was caused by damage from those ASW units in the photos.

What I can't tell is whether the Wahoo is still moving in those pics or if the "trailing" effect of the oil slick was caused by water currents.

[mrbassbone]

By the time those photos were taken,the Wahoo had been taking a pounding from the ASW units. I have no doubt that the oil slick in those photos was caused by damage from those ASW units in the photos.

What I can't tell is whether the Wahoo is still moving in those pics or if the "trailing" effect of the oil slick was caused by water currents.

If I recall correctly....the two pictures are taken at different times. In one WAHOO is travelling EAST and in the other...WEST. I have not checked them in a while so I might be wrong on this.

I AM incorrect on this. Both pictures were taken about the same time.

[TheSatyr]

That had to be one of the worst possible places to get caught in daylight.

[nikimcbee]

Coolness bump:ahoy: