no more "reality"...

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6519209.stm

Italy state TV bans "reality shows". Applaus! Applaus...! APPLAUS...!!! I don't care if it is a moral issue, or an economical consideration: "Hauptsache weg" .

Berlusconi being the exception.

Don't forget to kill big Brother, too, please.

Not every vulgarity needs to be delivered, not every shamelessness needs to be pleased, just because some mobs in the streets call for them. Better educate the mobs.

I wish Germany would follow.

[Bertgang]

I was very pleased hearing this news on radio.

Unfortunately, the state TV is less than an half of this sort of trash show; most of titles, including "Big Brother", "The farm" and others are Berlusconi's businness.

I had some look on this kind of shows, and the only pleasure for me was in seeing how famous adults are so less skilled than any boy scout.

Out of that, nothing is less real than a "reality" where a selected group of characters lives and groans in front of several cameras; a volounteer enprisonement, for money and fame, where just the duty for silly side games save people from utimate boredom.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Finally, Italy does something right ;)

[KevinB]

Let's hope the UK follows Italy's lead.

[bradclark1]

Lets hope the U.S. follows. I don't watch tv but the wife does. Every time I think they can't come up with another reality subject they do.

[Skybird]

Do like I do, make your own program. I just bought the latest "The Professionals" DVD box and the final season of "Twin Peaks". I always think twice before switching to current TV programs... Plan to get the old "Robin of Sherwood" series as well, at least the first two seasons before the protagonist changed (planning that since long... :-? ).

And no - no Star Trek series DVDs over here :lol: Only VHS recordings of the movies.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Do like I do, make your own program. I just bought the latest "The Professionals" DVD box and the final season of "Twin Peaks". I always think twice before switching to current TV programs... Plan to get the old "Robin of Sherwood" series as well, at least the first two seasons before the protagonist changed (planning that since long... :-? ).

And no - no Star Trek series DVDs over here :lol: Only VHS recordings of the movies.


I have season one and two of Starsky and Hutch :rock::rock:

[STEED]

Reality shows are made for the brain dead and sad acts. And there is a lot of them in the UK thats why these shows rule TV. :damn:

[Skybird]

I consider daily soaps, sit coms and reality shows to be a mental health hazard. Seriously, and talking as an ex-psychologist. If you eat bad food, you get weak and/or ill. But with mental and intellectual input, it should be different...? "Modernes Fernsehen verblödet."

[STEED]

I consider daily soaps, sit coms and reality shows to be a mental health hazard. Seriously, and talking as an ex-psychologist. If you eat bad food, you get weak and/or ill. But with mental and intellectual input, it should be different...? "Modernes Fernsehen verblödet."

No complaints here Skybird, you got my vote. :rock: :up: :rock:

[Letum]

If a university had tried to run a psycological experiment like big brother then they wouldn't have got permission on ethical grounds. Some serious regulation is needed for these TV programs!

Have they banned reality TV such as garden makeovers or house buying programs in Italy?

[August]

I consider daily soaps, sit coms and reality shows to be a mental health hazard. Seriously, and talking as an ex-psychologist. If you eat bad food, you get weak and/or ill. But with mental and intellectual input, it should be different...? "Modernes Fernsehen verblödet."

I agree totally. I have a classroom full of people who can tell you who won the last Star Search but few of them know how to do long division. :nope:

[TteFAboB]

The answer to survive and enjoy TV is: https://www.tivo.com/ (https://www.tivo.com/0.0.asp)

[SUBMAN1]

The answer to survive and enjoy TV is: https://www.tivo.com/ (https://www.tivo.com/0.0.asp)

Yeah. I don't use my Tivo anymore. I might sell it sometime soon as well. It's hacked with an ethernet cable hanging out the back end so that you can transfer shows to whatever device you want. Only problem is, it's a 10 mbps cable so it takes forever to transfer a couple GB show. I mainly use my Tivo now to record video games off my computer (which is a cool use for it) now since that is all it is good for since my computer took over the Tivo job. Using XP Media Center 2005, you have none of the restrictions on what you do with a file as found on a Tivo (Without hacking the Tivo that is), and the guide data is free so it doesn't cost you anything to use it either.

-S

[Rykaird]

For some odd reason, restricting free speech is always met with cheers when we dislike or disagree with the speech in question. Since there is fairly widespread revulsion for reality tv, it is a smart political move to ban it. It accomplishes two things to do so: first, it is a popular short term political move, and second, it affirms the power of the government to make decisions about what gets shown in the media.

The problem always comes down to who decides what gets restricted. I wonder if this thread would be as positive if they were banning tv shows that show discussions of evolution, or images of naked women, or ads for alcohol? My guess is that for these kinds of speech the reaction would be more mixed.

I would recommend caution in applauding governments for exerting power over what gets shown in the media. Today, when they ban something you despise, and you agree with their exercise of that power, you are inviting them to use that power another day around something you care about.

Never give up your rights, even if it benefits you in the short term. Rights are bloody hard to reclaim once lost.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire

[Hitman]

I have never seen a single reality show in my whole life :smug: , but I also don't think they should be forbidden. It's like prohibiting stupidity...it's useless. There are millions of idiots out there, and I'm nobody to tell them what is good for them or not. We have a say here in Spain that is: "Just because thousands of flies love the S**T, that doesn't mean S**T is good", in referring to the fact that majorities are not always right. But the fact is that S**T is good....for the flies;)

If they want it, let them have it. For those it is too late to try re-education anyway.

The only sad part of this is that they also can vote in a democracy. That's why I don't like the democracy, based in Aristotelic reasons :shifty:, but sadly we have no better system (Based in Churchilian reasons):down:

EDIT: Forgot to add: I concur mostly to what Rykaird said before. As long as every TV has a on/off switch, your freedom is preserved. If everyone would be forced to see that rubbish (A la "Clockwork Orange") that would be a different story, though.

[Mush Martin]

I have season one and two of Starsky and Hutch :rock::rock:

Give My Regards to Huggy Bear

[Skybird]

You guys oversee one thing: looking TV is no one-way road, but it feeds back on the viewer, like almost all sensual input. You may think that if the plebs in the street demands some crap format, it will just be freedom of speech and that it should be honoured by delivering them what they want. But it will lead to a constant detoriating of overall quality in TV - and that is what I see happening since roughly twenty years now. Leave the decision about quality to quotas only, and you will soon have garbage TV the sort of that we now have.

Not every vulgarity needs to be delivered, not every shamelessness needs to be pleased, just because some mobs in the streets call for them. Better educate the mobs.

By saying no, and leave them no choice than to consume better quality, or not consume at all.

Hell, we are not talking about the prohibition of political magazines, suppression of opinions on scientific opinions, and the censoring of cultural programs! Don't make this bigger than it is. We are talking about crap. C-R-A-P. Was it an attack on free press when in Germany many years ago the display of naked women on regular mainstream magazine's frontpages (not things like Penthouse or Playboy) was regulated and for the most, banned? By far it was not. Such stuff is still there. but salesmen no longer position it in the first and unhidden rows of their newspaper stands, like before.

Why is it that every piece of sh!t today gets excused and it's spreading is tolerated - always in the name of defending free speech and some undiscriminating tolerance for all and everything, no matter how bad or or stupid or dangerous or hostile it is? If that would work, why is the movie scene becoming more and more stereotypic and reduced to some cash-making schemes, and why is TV quality in free fall since so many years?

Allow open inflation of lacking quality, and you will get exactly an inflation of bad quality. See what you get so far.

Accept increasing brutalising and coarsen in medias, manners, and content in general - and you will get an increasing brutalising and coarsening of society. No wonder that more and more people are so simple-minded and show so bad manners, especially amongst the young ones.

"Eine Verrohung der Inhalte führt zu einer Verrohung der Sitten." If you read Shakespeare, you will foster the education of a certain development level of mind. If you read a primitive porn novel, you will Foster the education of a different level of mind. Which one would you choose?

Always putting things into relations until no more standards are left. Always rejecting any standards at all, and always saying that every standard, no matter what, is as valuable and must be found as worthy as any other given standard. Always being tolerant on everything, even if unlimited tolerance is only possible by completely giving up any values, any identity, and every stand of oneself. Bah. No wonder that this culture of ours is going to hell. It rots from within. :down:

[Rykaird]

The reason people defend almost anything in the name of free speech is because there is no universal standard of what constitutes "crap."

Simple example - the tv show South Park. The only episode I saw, someone hid a nuclear bomb in Hilary Clinton's private parts, and the Queen of England stuck a gun in her mouth and blew her brains out all over the wall. I found it pretty vulgar, and won't watch the show again. But should it be banned? There are millions who think it is hilarious. Who's right? Who decides? For me, I'd rather just elect to change the channel rather than cede to the government the right to decide what is "crap."

Should the Bush government decide for the American public what is "crap" and what is "educational"? Are you SURE that's the model that you want - that the government decides, as the Italian government just did on reality shows?

You can wail about declining standards (by the way, I happen to think the quality of tv programming is at an all time high right now - please revisit the 1970s and tell me that tv was so much better then) - but it still comes down to a question of power and authority.

With the exception of certain known social standards, I would rather use rating systems and market pressures to determine publishing standards. You talk about educating the public - OK, but who decides what they get educated on? There's an entire army of folks who think we should be teaching young children that homosexual relationships are a good thing. I disagree. Who decides?

One day a liberal government mandates educating children on homosexuality and four years later a conservative one eliminates discussions of evolution. Sorry, I just don't want them to have that control. You can say we aren't talking about such key issues - that this is just about crap tv - but there is no way to divide that level of authority so finely. You can't give the government the right to ban tv shows that are deemed to be not helpful to the masses, but only if they don't discussions on science, or education, or religion, etc. Sorry, the lawyers will then jump in and re-label anything the way they want it.

Your entire argument hinges on this idea that you happen to know what's best, that it is so obvious that reality tv is crap and should be banned. But you aren't the person making the call - its the government. There's no ballot measure where the majority gets to decide. Tomorrow (and they have certainly tried to do this) a liberal government bans conservative talk radio as "hate speech". If your a liberal, this is a wise and prudent move. If your a conservative, you just woke up in a totalitarian government.

What I want is less intrusive government. Period. Fix the roads and defend the shores, and stay the hell out of my personal decisions.

[Skybird]

If banning reality shows leads to philosophical basic dicussions like it is tried here, then the deconstruction of any standards altogether has already proceeded farther than I think and the situation is really hopeless, because by that it is displayed what one considers to be the niveau of philosophy - and that niveau mirrors that of reality shows and thus is not impressive. And so is the resulting philosophy.

If all is open and free (beliebig), then nothing matters any more. And that is the total collapse of any moral system, no matter what. what is yelled the loudest on the streets, will decide what "culture" than will be.

And that is the culture of a dog having fun with what it just left behind at that tree, or the crowds in the Colosseum shouting for more blood and violance, and adult persons starring in porno movies and f#ucking on stage in public where they get handed some golden statue will be called "stars", and will be blown up to idols.

Like buildings must be taken care of, and must be cleaned and maintained, cultures must be taken care of, and their basic values must be protected against deconstruction. Some standards and values and morals are more of worth than others, while some even do active damage.

Today, every fascist, every mentally retarded, every egoist a$$hole can call his private and oh so important thoughts a "culture" - and by doing so will be given total immunity and is considered to be untouchable. Even if he calls for the supression of others, violance against people, sexual provocation in public, or war. It is "culture", isn't it, so it must be considered as valuable and as worthy as the best what mankind ever have shown up with. How could one dare to talk of qualitative hierarchies? Well i do, and if others dont like it, I don't give a damn. I am tired of seeing the rich AND SUPERIOR cultural heritage of the West going down the drain - in the name of all this above.

Total degeneracy.

Hell, we are not talking about the prohibition of political magazines, suppression of opinions on scientific opinions, and the censoring of cultural programs! Don't make this bigger than it is. We are talking about crap.

Simple that. No philosopher and no rocketscientist is needed to realise that. One needs no encyclopedia to realise when something is crap.

[Rykaird]

Like buildings must be taken care for, and must be cleaned and maintained, cultures must be taken care of, and their basic values must be protected against deconstruction. Some standards and values and morals are more of worth than others, while some even do active damage.

Yup. Now please tell me what system you propose to determine precisely which "basic values" must be "protected", and which ones lead to degeneracy, and how to protect against the obvious opportunities to abuse this power by the government.

[Skybird]

Assuming (for simple probability reasons) that you come from North America or Europe, I give up when I even must tell you about your own cultural identity and history. You are a totally blank neutrum, then. If I must tell you how to define your philosophical and cultural background, you are lost, you will never know who you are, and words like humanism, freedom, ethic, responsebility, will always be empty word-shells only for you.

And sooner or later you will fall prey to those who - different to you - know all too well whom they are and what they want. But they eventually will be thankful that you paved them the way so willingly, before they destroy you. That is kind of them, isn't it.

[Rykaird]

Assuming (for simple probability reasons) that you come from North America or Europe, I give up when I even must tell you about your own cultural identity and history. You are a totally blank neutrum, then. If I must tell you how to define your philosophical and cultural background, you are lost, you will never know who you are, and words like humanism, freedom, ethic, responsebility, will always be empty word-shells only for you.

And sooner or later you will fall prey to those who - different to you - know all too well whom they are and what they want. But they eventually will be thankful that you paved them the way so willingly, before they destroy you. That is kind of them, isn't it.

Nice try to weasel out, but your argument doesn't work. Yes, I personally can define my cultural values. Who cares? I'm not empowered to push my values on the entire population. Last time I checked, I'm not King.

Forget my culture. What system do you propose for your own? Or where you live is the population so monolithic, so posessed of a single political and cultural point of view, that such determinations take no effort? That it is just so completely obvious what values are cultural imperatives?

Please enlighten me on how you propose to choose what values are basic moral standards and which ones are corrupting for your own culture. Remember, this is choosing values for everyone, not just for yourself. This is a system to choose a universal set of values for your entire culture and all its population.

Or do you actually have the overwhelming ego to believe that your personal list is "The One True Way"?

[Hitman]

Even the concept of "culture" is somehow relative. I have personally never found anything that can be qualified as "Art" in Picasso, Miró, Gris, Münch....

Had everyone been like me, they would have died like Van Gogh, without having sold a single paint :roll:

If I must tell you how to define your philosophical and cultural background, you are lost, you will never know who you are, and words like humanism, freedom, ethic, responsebility, will always be empty word-shells only for you.

I concur to the definition of crap you have Skybird, I think we all have more or less the same point of view about that. But many others don't seem to. Shall we take decisions for them (Like religions do, saying what is good and bad)? The answer is not trivial, it has very deep consequences in the politics and in many aspects. It is not about crap, or the definition of crap. The question is about if a minority shall impose its definition of crap to a majority :hmm:

[Bertgang]

Have they banned reality TV such as garden makeovers or house buying programs in Italy?

I've never seen or heard such programs here; but our full list is very long, so I could have simply missed them.

The one I know the best was about survivors in a wild isle.
I never saw this one too, but some minor facts happened during the show became matter of a trial under my duty.

Anyway, reality shows won't be banned by law in my country.
Simply, the boss of state TV said stop to this kind of programs.
No censorship, just an advised choice for better quality.

Berlusconi's TV is free to continue with them.
Good for freedom, maybe, not so good for youthness.

[Skybird]

Rykaird,

my background is the set of liberties and values that derived from the age of enlightenment, and the French revolution ideals. The idea of humanism as an attitude of mind, the equality of male and female, the ideas you can see expressed in the French, American and German constitutions, and the deriving order of a nation, the strict separation between state and religion, the message of Jesus (I could also say Buddha, for I am no Christian fundamentalism, or even Christian at all). I am aware of the importance that ancient Greek history and philosophy had on Rome and thus, on our contemporary way of thinking. The development of sciences, and arts. The liberties we enjoy, and that are no voluntary offers by someone, but can be sued for at courts on the basis of valid laws.

Never before, in no time and no part of the world, mankind enjoyed such a high level of freedoms, guarantees that the the dignity of the individual is untouchable, and blossoming philosophy. Basing on Greek philosophy for the most, we developed the principle of reason, and logic beyond anything that is to be seen anywhere else in the world. Our daily life is enriched by inventions and tools and possibilities that would not have been possible without these. If you think I am wrong tell your dentist never to give you an anaesthetic again, and don't forget that boarding an airliner is impossible because it does not really exist. Withiut our unique cultural history, there would be neither aneasthetics, nor airliners. where these are build by others today, they are basing on our development work.

Note that excesses of modern times, like the world wars, or unregulated predatory capitalism with all its misery it brings for so many people just to foster the wealth of the few, are no logical consequences fro these things I mentioned, but are happening because the values and cultural developments I outlined just were violated or perverted - this catastrophes did/do not happen because they follow our cultural heritage, but because they explicitly violate it. Capitalism claims it's right for unlimited freedom of acting by he individual, and the world Wars developed by explicit ignoring of these cultural values and developments.

Even the age of imperialism will not stop me saying that the Western culture brought human culture to a brighter blossoming than any other culture ever did (and this does not mean that I am ignorant to other cultures of the past). Despite the exploitation (resources) and mastering taking place, the presence of the colonial powers, especially the British in India and Africa, helped a lot to bring education and health care to these countries, schools, hospitals, from which they benefit until today. Most important, especially in Africa: the British prevented more violence to happen than they caused themselves. African people were better off with the British, than with themselves, when endless tribal wars and slaughtering, being committed with unbelievable cruelty an barbarism, were almost routine. When the British left, all these wars broke loose again, as was to be seen during the last century and after WWII. It is always said that colonialism has shattered Africa, but that is neither so simply, nor is it true. The continent was shattered before, and when European governing went away, the many rifts and tribal open bills became apparent again and also provoked an amount of corruption that today the hope of ever getting Africa sorted can be given up for sure.

Today, a Pax Americana - if only it would not base on the greed and profit interests of corporations, but the true ideals that were originally expressed by the American founding fathers, would be a blessing for the world.

Yes, you hear right. It will surprise people when it is Sky bird saying that, for I have my reputation of criticising the USA so unforgivingly. But I also always made it clear that I see the US of today not representative for the original idea that it once was, in the past. I always said that modern foreign politics for me are not representing the America as intended in the constitution and the Bill of Rights, but is actively, willingly ignoring these, and violating these. If the US would be like it claims to be, wants to be, and was meant to be, I would be it's convinced and willing ally. But as things are today, I must oppose it instead, at least for the most of occasions.

I also define the Western culture not only by what it is, but by what it is NOT. The heritage of our history leaves no room for excusing totalitarianism. we went beyond religious superstition and literal word-believing (at least most of us). We went beyond slavery. We do not beat our women anymore, and don't consider our children to be a possession of ours.

You are weaselling, Rykaird, not me. You must do so, for you are not able or willing to describe the cultural ground on which you stand and that would be needed as a basis in order to be able to separate between what is good and what is bad, for example concerning TV quality. Even more so, people like you I have talked to before and often concluded that for that way of arguing it even is not allowed to define any such base in values and cultural identity - that would mean to give up the illusion that all and everything must endlessly be put into relation to each other and considered to be of equal worth. It cannot be, what shall not be. What is better is being forced back into mediocrity, what is worse is being polished and blown up until it appears to be more than it is. The result is a flat terrain, wiothiut any heights, without any downs. I'm not impressed. It's what I call Flatland.

You will not find anything convincing that I say. Having no identity you defend yourself, no awareness of the cultural heritage on which your present life with all it's liberties and freedoms and possibilities is basing, and avoiding any hierarchical thinking at all cost, because "hierarchy" today is brandmarked as a bad word, you are not more than a leaf in the wind, and the one blowing the strongest will determine your fate. By that, you are of no value for the community, and do nothing to strengthen it's future chances - even when you a have a job and maybe do it well.

I never argued and will never argue that we have a right (or an obligation) to bring our culture to others, and enforce it upon them. Others need to learn their own way, and at their own speed, and if they want the tools and possibilities that we developed (our ancestors), they need to lay the needed cultural basis first, for it is not by random chance that it was the Western culture gaining these abilities. The unique European geography, and coexistence of both rivalry and geographic isolation led to the huge canon of different schools in thinking, economy, science, trade, etc. Tribes and people had to compete with the others in order to survive, but nevertheless the geographic isolation made it possible, that one was not only copying the other, but was forming one's own ways - because one did not know about a model which to copy. An incredibla diversity that in most recent times even nhas learned to peacefully coexist, was the result. More diversity than in any other place of thr world, and more peaceful coexstiance than in any other part of the world. Stammtisch-TV would not have made that possible, of this we can be sure...

We should resist all efforts and attempts from within to make us forget the roots of our present, the suffering as well as the triumph, and should also resist all people from the outside that wish to take our identity away from us, and force us to surrender to their inferior, but often more brutal ideas of "culture".

You are wrong, Rykaird. What is crap, and what not, can be defined very well, and I gave you a hint with all what I said above. If you try to make a list of paragraphs, you only will find out that your list will always, always be incomplete, and me - I am no bureaucrat, lists and counting paragraphs are not my thing. Better advise is to have standards and a background by which to judge the present issue individually, instead of just trying to find a matching category for it

And one thing is beyond doubt: in our own home, we have any right that can be imagined to say that in our home OUR standards are the rule of all, not those of others from somewhere else. We do not have the smallest obligation whatever to make us smaller in order to allow others appearing to be as great.


Hitman,

were you said that you have troubles to find the "culture" in the arts of Picasso, Miro, and others, you miss the important point. A piece of art alone does not make a culture. culture is the possibility, the freedom, that the huge treasury of many pieces of many kinds of arts can even appear. The general context in which the artist, the piece of art, and he audience is embedded - this is what culture is. not the individual painting. Of course this means that in such an environment, the audience has an obligation to make sure it is educated enough to make sense of what the artist is showing them. Damn, again this bad thing concerning qualitative hierarchies! It seems nature is filled with hierarchies. But when the general context that embraces and houses all this is unable to give the audience any standards to judge what is "good" in the meaning of fostering this culture, and what is "bad" in temrs of helping to forget or even to pervert it's identity, then this is not a sign of the amount of tolerance in "culture", but is culture that is denying itself and deconstruct itself. and last but not least, "arts" have something to do with craftsmanship of whatever a kind. A piece of arts is no random creation, it is not just throwing two dice and have this or that result that becasue of it's random, unrepeateble nature would be a piece of arts, too. It means that NOT EVERYBODY can do it in terms of compoetence, craftsmanship, knowledge, experience. Else the chaotic, noise-craving hammering of a 4-year old kid on the piano would be considered as cultural as is a Debussy-interpretation by Thiollier. This is what separates objects of arts that I like or at least tolerate, from objects that I consider to be crap (especially in "modern arts".). Throwing some paint bin at the wall - is no arts. It may result in a visual pattern that somebody likes, maybe even me, but it is no art. Everybody can put a huge piece of Butter onto a chair (the infamous "Fettstuhl"). Hammering a statue out of a stone that makes the audience standing in silence and admire the beauty in it - that is something that not everybody can do. Or in TV: everybody can make an ape out of himself in Big Brother, but not everybody is able to pick a role and play it in a way that the audience is convinced that it is no actor playing, but that the figure itself has come to life.

"the audience has an obligation to make sure it is educated enough to make sense of what the artist is showing them". If it does not do tht, cannot do that, does not want to do that, it should stay away and remain silent. So: feed the audience with crap, and it's education level will detoriate. By that, culture is destroyed. Tolerating crap is not tolerance, but is harmful and dmagaing and in the end: suicidal. This is where tolerance should end. - Classical music has become ridiculously cheap and affordable for every peter and Paul. Every supermarket offers partially high quality recordings, for just some cents. It led to this: masterpieces of classical music are being omnipresent now and are being used without any differentiations. You sell a new soap, and there is Prokofiev. You open a drupstaore, and you play Mozart. the audience does not separate between good and bad music, and even less so to differ between a good and a bad performance. every uneducated hillbilly now can be "en culture" by spending some pocket money that is left after having had his last beer. The overall quality of the classical market has suffered incredibly by this. even worse, hip hop rappers and wannabee-girlies whith screeching voices but no ability to hold a clear tone when singing pick up a classical peice and rape it to their liking. the result is crap, and the loss of quality means a detoriation of culture as well. People cannot appreciate what it is that they have. They can't estimate it's truevalue. It just like that bus driving by, that bike leaning at the wall, that dog doing it's business.

No more differing between good and bad, quality and crap, and even more: no more ability to understand why one maybe should wish that. Great.

German readers: anybody remembering Harpe Kerkelings unforgettable Verarschung of the audience when he and a pianist performed just nonsens on stage, and then managed to successfully lure the confused audience into a deep and profound discussion about how much culture there was in that performance of theirs...? One of the best and most clever comedy stunts I have seen in all my life. :rotfl: "Hurz...!"


These remarks necessarily are not complete, and cannot be without writing a whole book.

[Skybird]

I mentioned it above, and here it is. The star is not the singer, but the audience's remarkable and highly insightful comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuWRJrDsKMM

It is called: "Hurz!"

Totale Publikums-Verarsche (I excuse for the rude word of mine). the audience was all to willingly to get 2veraerscht". Stupid people.

[Hitman]

my background is the set of liberties and values that derived from the age of enlightenment, and the French revolution ideals. The idea of humanism as an attitude of mind, the equality of male and female, the ideas you can see expressed in the French, American and German constitutions, and the deriving order of a nation, the strict separation between state and religion, the message of Jesus (I could also say Buddha, for I am no Christian fundamentalism, or even Christian at all). I am aware of the importance that ancient Greek history and philosophy had on Rome and thus, on our contemporary way of thinking. The development of sciences, and arts. The liberties we enjoy, and that are no voluntary offers by someone, but can be sued for at courts on the basis of valid laws.

Me too. But it is important to add the lessons learned from fascism, comunism and WW2

Capitalism claims it's right for unlimited freedom of acting by he individual

Capitalism is not a political ideology, but an economic system. As such, it is politically neutral and as unlimited/limited as mathematics. A different matter is that a Political ideology (Liberalism) embraces it as a way of organizing a society.

Today, a Pax Americana - if only it would not base on the greed and profit interests of corporations, but the true ideals that were originally expressed by the American founding fathers, would be a blessing for the world.

Yes, you hear right. It will surprise people when it is Sky bird saying that, for I have my reputation of criticising the USA so unforgivingly. But I also always made it clear that I see the US of today not representative for the original idea that it once was, in the past.

Me too. The US have lots of defects, like any other country, but they have never been fans of "violent" imperialism, but instead of "economic" imperialism, even if being involved in many wars in this and the past two centuries (Hard to avoid when you are a super-power). Anyone can critizise their imperialism, like the imperialism of any mighty nation in history can be critizised (Spain has a long and interesting history about that), but at least it has been much more peaceful than others in the past.

But when the general context that embraces and houses all this is unable to give the audience any standards to judge what is "good" in the meaning of fostering this culture, and what is "bad" in temrs of helping to forget or even to pervert it's identity, then this is not a sign of the amount of tolerance in "culture", but is culture that is denying itself and deconstruct itself.

The problem is that in the end, those "standards" must be given not by "the general context", but instead by certain guys, with a certain name. And who are those guys? The government? The courts? The teachers?

The general context nowadays is in fact the idiots, my friend. There are millions of them:oops: All those ideals about humanism, enlightning, etc. were the result of the "Despotic Enlightmeent", when a certain group of "enlighted" guys decided what the rest of the society should consider good or bad. They convinced the millions of idiots to make a revolution (And die by thousands) in order to seize the power from the King and create the democracy, only to ensure that not the King's heir but instead the spiritual heirs of those "Despotic enlighteds" would rule. Was their standard better than the old King's standard? For sure. Is it way better than the idiot's standards? For sure. But is it still a way of telling the idiots what is better from them, instead of letting them decide? For sure too.:down:

Throwing some paint bin at the wall - is no arts. It may result in a visual pattern that somebody likes, maybe even me, but it is no art. Everybody can put a huge piece of Butter onto a chair (the infamous "Fettstuhl").

Sure. That's what Picasso or Van Gogh heard a lot at the start of their careers :hmm:

Hammering a statue out of a stone that makes the audience standing in silence and admire the beauty in it - that is something that not everybody can do. Or in TV: everybody can make an ape out of himself in Big Brother, but not everybody is able to pick a role and play it in a way that the audience is convinced that it is no actor playing, but that the figure itself has come to life.


Not everyone can eat 10 burgers in 5 minutes (Like in Guiness Records), but that doesn't make it an art. Not everyone can drive a Formula 1 under 1.55 seconds in Barcelona circuit, and that doesn't make it an art.

Is art dependant from how many can do something?

Classical music has become ridiculously cheap and affordable for every peter and Paul. Every supermarket offers partially high quality recordings, for just some cents. It led to this: masterpieces of classical music are being omnipresent now and are being used without any differentiations.

Well I thought it also helped widespreading classic music and allowing more people to access it. I personally would not like to have paid 3 times as much for my already large collection :huh:

even worse, hip hop rappers and wannabee-girlies whith screeching voices but no ability to hold a clear tone when singing pick up a classical peice and rape it to their liking. the result is crap, and the loss of quality means a detoriation of culture as well. People cannot appreciate what it is that they have. They can't estimate it's truevalue.

I guess when the first ancient man of the caverns started blowing air through an empty bone and tried to make some music out of it, his neighbours probably thought the same. As I said before, Van Gogh as many others was not much appreciated at the start of his career (I certainly still don't like his paintings and wouldn't hang one in my living room, even if it cost only 1€).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

But don't get me wrong. From all this discussion I recognize that I share completely your vision about what is crap and what isn't, what is better for everyone in our civilization, and what isn't. The only difference is that I still have a philosophical doubt about wether I have or not the right to say that my understanding of this all is the correct one, and that others are wrong. (A doubt which ironically is also a part of that cultural heritage of humanism)

You, instead, are very sure about your convictions -on a well founded basis, IMO- and therefore have the fighting spirit to demand it. To a certain extent, I envy you :up: I only can be so sure about a minimal amount of things.

Cheers

[Skybird]

Me too. But it is important to add the lessons learned from fascism, comunism and WW2

I said: "I also define the Western culture not only by what it is, but by what it is NOT. The heritage of our history leaves no room for excusing totalitarianism."

Capitalism is not a political ideology, but an economic system. As such, it is politically neutral and as unlimited/limited as mathematics. A different matter is that a Political ideology (Liberalism) embraces it as a way of organising a society.

The embracing is mutual, capitalism very well tries to influence politics in its favour. By doing that, democracy is in danger (it is a conflict of interests, the interest of the one colliding with the interests of the many). Capitalism cannot stay politically neutral in an environment that is not totally liberal and trade is totally free. the difference between economy and politics are diminishing. Another mutual embracing.

Me too. The US have lots of defects, like any other country, but they have never been fans of "violent" imperialism, but instead of "economic" imperialism, even if being involved in many wars in this and the past two centuries (Hard to avoid when you are a super-power). Anyone can criticise their imperialism, like the imperialism of any mighty nation in history can be criticised (Spain has a long and interesting history about that), but at least it has been much more peaceful than others in the past.

Disagree. the British where not much more militaristic in their imperialism than the Us are today. Both were/are economical imperialists, projecting and securing their influence by controlling the central knots of global trade, and monopoles, as well as cultural influence, and streamlining the administrational structures. The British controlled the coastlines and harbours, and the traffic between them, the Americans focus more and more oversea military bases, and supply lines of resources as well as resource reservoirs. The British established trade monopoles, the US tailors institutions like the WTO and ICF to their needs and make sure that rules and personnel get dominant influence that are powerful enough to push through American agenda, if they are officially sold under different labels. By that they can also control the rules by which weaker rivals can be kept at arms length and inferior position, which is especially true of the ICF. The British had their elitary self-understanding by which they thought they would convince others to voluntarily submit to their authority. he Americans export the American consumer way of life: blue jeans, rock'n roll Coca Cola which proved to be so very irresistible even to people that are openly hostile towards them. Coca cola is not sold much in the Arab world because it is an American drink, but because the ME is is delivered Coca Cola that was filled in Israel. Pepsi is highly popular.


The problem is that in the end, those "standards" must be given not by "the general context", but instead by certain guys, with a certain name. And who are those guys? The government? The courts? The teachers?
No, I am talking about what in science is called self-emerging systems. The ability to form and developer itself and doing so not in an unstructured but a structured way is inherent. You completely miss the point that I try to make. Culture, as I understand it, is not defined by one individual, a judge, a superior being. It defines it's own identity all by itself, by the dynamic interaction of all of it's components. Like your body does not replace tissues and cells unstructured, but in a structured way (else it would be called cancer!)

The general context nowadays is in fact the idiots, my friend. There are millions of them:oops: All those ideals about humanism, enlightening, etc. were the result of the "Despotic Enlightmeent", when a certain group of "enlighted" guys decided what the rest of the society should consider good or bad. They convinced the millions of idiots to make a revolution (And die by thousands) in order to seize the power from the King and create the democracy, only to ensure that not the King's heir but instead the spiritual heirs of those "Despotic enlighteds" would rule. Was their standard better than the old King's standard? For sure. Is it way better than the idiot's standards? For sure. But is it still a way of telling the idiots what is better from them, instead of letting them decide? For sure too.:down:
I completely disagree with your view of history here. the declining quality of our standards for me is caused by trying to expand tolerance for other, even hostile standards, beyond all limits, by that providing a cultural environment that no longer gives sufficient educational feedback to the audience/individual which then would serve as orientation and a growing pool of experience by which to judge the quality of elements of culture in the future. If you read dumb books, you will not only stay dumb, but will even degenerate from a state of intellectual activity to being dumb. If you read intelligent books, it is the other way around. So it is of primary importance to check what kind of stuff a cultural environment encourages to be consumed by people.

Sure. That's what Picasso or Van Gogh heard a lot at the start of their careers :hmm:

I am unable to paint like they did. I do lack the needed skill and experience. However, picking up a glass of paint and throw it against the wall is no problem for me. So: pay me a million dollars, or are you culturally ignorant?

Not everyone can eat 10 burgers in 5 minutes (Like in Guiness Records), but that doesn't make it an art. Not everyone can drive a Formula 1 under 1.55 seconds in Barcelona circuit, and that doesn't make it an art.

Is art dependant from how many can do something?

And a man who has only five fingers on both hands cannot play piano. you comparison is not matching, I think. I talked about skill. experience. craftsmanship. A burger-eater :) does not qualify in these categories. Sports, usually also are not art, although being done by specialists with physical skills not many others do share. But winning a spring on ski would nobody call an art, or "culturally valuable". However, there are some rare expect ions from the rules, were I sometimes perceive some sport event to make the border between sports and art go away.


Well I thought it also helped wide spreading classic music and allowing more people to access it. I personally would not like to have paid 3 times as much for my already large collection :huh:
that widespreading is especially the evil here. Because the more widespread it became, the more inflationary it was used, killing the value in it, and the more people who do not have leaned the skill to differ between good and bad quality recordings are consuming it, the less worth is to be seen in that cultural good, because it becomes trivilazed, and fiuture productions reflect the call for mediocre quality to which the masses are used. and exactly this is what happens. My father has been classical musuican in the DSO in Berlin until recently, he can sing you a song about this. He, like many musicians of his generation, hates the audience especially in Berlin. Because they are too stupid to differ a good concert from a bad one. But when Peter and Paul are going to a concert, they consider themselves to be pleasing to all mankind and being the navel of the earth, when Peter goes to a concert, it MUST be a very special evening and of course a superior performance, and so he starts clapping hands and applauders and yells and "Hurrah" and "Bravo!" - even when both orchestra and conductor know that the evening was bad and the performance went totally into the toilet.You can play good, and the crowds will cheer you. you can perform bad, and the crowds will cheer you. It does not matter anymore how you perform, so, why spending any effort into training your skills at all? It's all the same flatland lacking any niveau.

I guess when the first ancient man of the caverns started blowing air through an empty bone and tried to make some music out of it, his neighbours probably thought the same. As I said before, Van Gogh as many others was not much appreciated at the start of his career (I certainly still don't like his paintings and wouldn't hang one in my living room, even if it cost only 1€).

C'mon you don't try to tell me that Eminem or Briteny Spears or Mariah Carey (will she ever sing a single tone without any trallafitti?) can be compared to a Mozart concerto, or Bach, eh?

Music includes mathematics. The criterion to decide on musical harmonies, is made by sets of mathematical relations, for example. The complexity of a given music, can be described in mathematical expressions. Violate the mathematical relations of the first, and you get disharmonic music, or better: noise. Vary the complexity, and you get more or less demanding music, for example. Britney Spears for example scores somewhere around zero, while guy like Back scores extremely high. that's why People still talk about Bach, but Britney Spears already is almost forgotten.

It is not just a question of arbitrary taste what kind of music is more or less "worthy". And it surely isn't true that all types of music are of equal worth. i intentionally combine a factual criterion with a statement on judging quality when using the term "worth" in this context.

In the seventies, if I remember correctly, there was an interesting experiment with plants. Fast-growing flowers were put into the centre of a glass-box with one wall including a loudspeaker. In the one box, the plants were exposed to heavy metal and hard rock. In the other, they played let's say Bach and Mozart. The plants in the first box then were seen to try to grow away from the loudspeaker. The plants in the second grew towards the loudspeaker. This story just for fun.




----------------------------------------------------------------------

But don't get me wrong. From all this discussion I recognise that I share completely your vision about what is crap and what isn't, what is better for everyone in our civilisation, and what isn't. The only difference is that I still have a philosophical doubt about wether I have or not the right to say that my understanding of this all is the correct one, and that others are wrong.

You better stop being tolerant where you deal with stuff that does not answer your tolerance on equal terms. And you better stop having doubts for all duration of your life, else you will never know who you are, where you come from, and what you can be, and want to be. You will always fell being pushed around, like a rubber ball. People need structure, and a reality they perceive to be stable, and being defined by rules. Even if, according to radical constructivism, people create their reality themselves. If you want to tolerate all and everything, you cannot say what not to tolerate. You deny your own identity. You are defenceless against everything alien that does not share your view of tolerance. You will deconstruct your culture, morals, values. you help to destroy the civilisation that brought you up.


(A doubt which ironically is also a part of that cultural heritage of humanism)

You, instead, are very sure about your convictions -on a well founded basis, IMO- and therefore have the fighting spirit to demand it. To a certain extent, I envy you :up: I only can be so sure about a minimal amount of things.
Note that in the context of this debate I do not so much argue IN FAVOUR of something (a given set of rules, a certain definition of culture), but that I argue AGAINST something. I do not necessarily wish others to pick up my ideas. But I certainly wish some people to stop with their ideas.

[Rykaird]

@ Skybird - massive walls of text and a lot of spirited hat and cane work, but the core question remains unanswered.

Who gets to decide what is crap?

The majority? It obviously can't be the majority, because they are already deciding, and they clearly like their crap, thank you very much. It is the majority that brings you Britney Spears and Mariah Carey and reality shows and McDonald's and all the other cultural sins you despise. In your world view, the majority can't be trusted to choose wisely, so their choices should be limited (oh, for their own good, of course).

So if it isn't the majority that decides, it must by definition be some minority. No doubt better educated, wiser, more culturally attuned than the great unwashed majority.

The idea of a minority elite making decisions for the majority against their will is not a form of government that I want. I would rather live in a world of Britney Spears - which I don't have to listen to - than in a world where some Minister of High Culture tells me I can't watch The Three Stooges, which I like, because it doesn't meet his snooty definition of adding cultural value.

This reminds me very much of the situation unfolding in Thailand. The majority - largely the underclass of uneducated farmers - overwhelmingly elected a prime minister and his party in a fully free election. The minority - mostly the upper middle class, urbanites, and the cultural elite - hated him. Some of their hatred is clearly legitimate, but the guy was elected and his popularity was very high. After getting repeatedly trounced in free elections, the elites, now partnered with the army, rolled the tanks through Bangkok and kicked the democratically elected prime minister out in a coup.

Unsurprisingly, the media - composed of course not of farmers but of the cultural elite - applauded the move. It seems they preferred having their political and cultural point of view being the dominant one - even if it meant the destruction of democracy. They constantly defend the coup - and the destruction of the constitution - by claiming that the majority is simply not educated enough to vote "correctly."

Not me. Freedom first. I'd rather have Britney Spears than someone telling me I can't have Britney Spears - even if I agree that Britney is crap.

[Hitman]

the difference between economy and politics are diminishing

:huh: IMO in the theory, no. A different matter is that politicians want to make politic embracing one or the other theory. It is obvious that capitalism can't be practiced in a system where private property is not recognized, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a economic proposal. Wether it later meets or not the bases it needs to be applied in a political context, is something different.

Disagree. the British where not much more militaristic in their imperialism than the Us are today. Both were/are economical imperialists, projecting and securing their influence by controlling the central knots of global trade, and monopoles, as well as cultural influence, and streamlining the administrational structures. The British controlled the coastlines and harbours, and the traffic between them, the Americans focus more and more oversea military bases, and supply lines of resources as well as resource reservoirs. The British established trade monopoles, the US tailors institutions like the WTO and ICF to their needs and make sure that rules and personnel get dominant influence that are powerful enough to push through American agenda, if they are officially sold under different labels. By that they can also control the rules by which weaker rivals can be kept at arms length and inferior position, which is especially true of the ICF. The British had their elitary self-understanding by which they thought they would convince others to voluntarily submit to their authority. he Americans export the American consumer way of life: blue jeans, rock'n roll Coca Cola which proved to be so very irresistible even to people that are openly hostile towards them. Coca cola is not sold much in the Arab world because it is an American drink, but because the ME is is delivered Coca Cola that was filled in Israel. Pepsi is highly popular.


I don't remember a country the USA invaded military and beligerantly directly for exploiting its resources (Except Irak, but this is still a bit confusing and unclear) like the UK invaded the India, or Spain invaded South/Central America, or Rome invaded most of the known world. True, they took control of Philippines and Cuba from Spain, but that was a very different matter than agressive colonialism. USA could have invaded Arabia for the same reasons the UK invaded India, but they limited their action to secure economical ties and influence. May be it's only we are living in a different era, but still....

No, I am talking about what in science is called self-emerging systems. The ability to form and developer itself and doing so not in an unstructured but a structured way is inherent. You completely miss the point that I try to make. Culture, as I understand it, is not defined by one individual, a judge, a superior being. It defines it's own identity all by itself, by the dynamic interaction of all of it's components. Like your body does not replace tissues and cells unstructured, but in a structured way (else it would be called cancer!)


No matter how it is defined, in any system where the power is directly placed in some individuals, it's them who in the end will decide what is worth of protection and what isn't. And about the self-emerging systems....well, as soon as they are a system, certain points are designated to hold the power. So we end up in the same thing.


I completely disagree with your view of history here. the declining quality of our standards for me is caused by trying to expand tolerance for other, even hostile standards, beyond all limits, by that providing a cultural environment that no longer gives sufficient educational feedback to the audience/individual which then would serve as orientation and a growing pool of experience by which to judge the quality of elements of culture in the future.

Nope. The roman imperators organized games and shows for the population to stay idiotic and distracted from the important things, and that tradition has continued until today. It is in the interest of the powers that the individual stays near-lobotomized and under control, be it through games (circensis), soccer, or consumism. The era of the enlightment was something organized by an intelectual elite that gathered to organize a new system based in apparently humanistic and noble principles, but whose purpose was to swap the former domination by a royal dinasty for another system they could control. Can you name a time in german history where a critic education was the official policy in schools, and when people were not distracted/controlled by circensis or in focusing in apparent enemies? Hmmm...the Kaiser's era certainly wasn't. The Weimar Republic...ahem. 3rd Reich :roll: . Post War? Under american control, taught officially to be brave and refuse as well as be ashamed of your past of violence. Good boys, you have understood it now. Now you can have Coca Cola, and go to see Hollywood movies. No further comments.

I am unable to paint like they did. I do lack the needed skill and experience.

Come on! Copying most of Picasso's paints is a child's game. We did it here at school when I was 12 years old :doh:

you comparison is not matching, I think. I talked about skill. experience. craftsmanship.

Sports have all of that. Even some plastics in their movements. And still
they are sports. Why is ballet an art, and olympic gymanstics a sport? Can you really tell the difference in terms of skill, experience, craftsmanship and aesthetics?

that widespreading is especially the evil here. Because the more widespread it became, the more inflationary it was used, killing the value in it, and the more people who do not have leaned the skill to differ between good and bad quality recordings are consuming it, the less worth is to be seen in that cultural good, because it becomes trivilazed, and fiuture productions reflect the call for mediocre quality to which the masses are used. and exactly this is what happens. My father has been classical musuican in the DSO in Berlin until recently, he can sing you a song about this. He, like many musicians of his generation, hates the audience especially in Berlin. Because they are too stupid to differ a good concert from a bad one. But when Peter and Paul are going to a concert, they consider themselves to be pleasing to all mankind and being the navel of the earth, when Peter goes to a concert, it MUST be a very special evening and of course a superior performance, and so he starts clapping hands and applauders and yells and "Hurrah" and "Bravo!" - even when both orchestra and conductor know that the evening was bad and the performance went totally into the toilet.You can play good, and the crowds will cheer you. you can perform bad, and the crowds will cheer you. It does not matter anymore how you perform, so, why spending any effort into training your skills at all? It's all the same flatland lacking any niveau.


That concept is a bit elitist. Not everyone has the musical aptitude to recognize that, but even so he can find a pleasure in musics. My grand-grandfather was a famous painter here, and I have herited a shy part of that skill. I have always been very good at painting, I even won some contests while at school. Yet I have no aptitudes for music. I like classical music, and I can tell when I like a concert or not, depending on who plays it. But that doesn't mean I will match what an "expert" would say. Am I not worthy of buying a CD of classical music then?

C'mon you don't try to tell me that Eminem or Briteny Spears or Mariah Carey (will she ever sing a single tone without any trallafitti?) can be compared to a Mozart concerto, or Bach, eh?


I know I like Mozart and Bach way more than Eminem or Britney Spears. But would Mozart or Bach have been able to sing like Britney does, even if she is not very good at it? Each one has its qualities, and in the end Mozart is a genius and Britney...well....but anyway I doubt much that Mozart had a voice fitted for singing.

You better stop being tolerant where you deal with stuff that does not answer your tolerance on equal terms. And you better stop having doubts for all duration of your life, else you will never know who you are, where you come from, and what you can be, and want to be. You will always fell being pushed around, like a rubber ball. People need structure, and a reality they perceive to be stable, and being defined by rules. Even if, according to radical constructivism, people create their reality themselves. If you want to tolerate all and everything, you cannot say what not to tolerate. You deny your own identity. You are defenceless against everything alien that does not share your view of tolerance. You will deconstruct your culture, morals, values. you help to destroy the civilisation that brought you up.


Errrr... the discussion was about culture, but anyway I know no "Big Brother" fans that want to seize my house to force me to follow it. As I said, as long as my TV has an on/off knob, my freedom is preserved.

As for general cultural degradation, well I choose the school I will bring my childs to, and I will of course guide their education both in sports and philosopy and arts, so I will do my 2 cents for their formation. My tolerance means just that if others are not interested in doing that with their sons, that's not my business. As long as I can educate mines freely, that's OK with me.

Note that in the context of this debate I do not so much argue IN FAVOUR of something (a given set of rules, a certain definition of culture), but that I argue AGAINST something.

That's not very constructive and helpful for something new and organized to self-emerge, isn't it?. Though it might well be helpful to prevent something already existing to sink :hmm:

[Skybird]

I don't remember a country the USA invaded military and beligerantly directly for exploiting its resources (Except Irak, but this is still a bit confusing and unclear) like the UK invaded the India, or Spain invaded South/Central America, or Rome invaded most of the known world. True, they took control of Philippines and Cuba from Spain, but that was a very different matter than agressive colonialism. USA could have invaded Arabia for the same reasons the UK invaded India, but they limited their action to secure economical ties and influence. May be it's only we are living in a different era, but still....

If one intervenes militarily to keep tyrants in poiwerr, prevent rulers hostile to US interests, or gain or reestablish influence over regions where one has economical interests, and maybe strategical interests as well, than this qualifies for "economical interventions" in my book. And then you get quite a list of countries together where the US intervened directly or indirectly for classical imperialistic motives: San Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua, Argentine, Vietnam being the most obvious. the massive base-building around the globe since the end of the cold war also cannot be exclusively explained by support operations for wars in Afghanistan and Iraq alone.


No matter how it is defined, in any system where the power is directly placed in some individuals, it's them who in the end will decide what is worth of protection and what isn't. And about the self-emerging systems....well, as soon as they are a system, certain points are designated to hold the power. So we end up in the same thing.

Disagree again, but don't want to write another novel :) Language also hinders me to be more precise on what I mean.

Nope. The roman imperators organised games and shows for the population to stay idiotic and distracted from the important things, and that tradition has continued until today. It is in the interest of the powers that the individual stays near-lobotomised and under control, be it through games (circensis), soccer, or consumism. The era of the enlightment was something organized by an intelectual elite that gathered to organize a new system based in apparently humanistic and noble principles, but whose purpose was to swap the former domination by a royal dinasty for another system they could control. Can you name a time in german history where a critic education was the official policy in schools, and when people were not distracted/controlled by circensis or in focusing in apparent enemies? Hmmm...the Kaiser's era certainly wasn't. The Weimar Republic...ahem. 3rd Reich :roll: . Post War? Under american control, taught officially to be brave and refuse as well as be ashamed of your past of violence. Good boys, you have understood it now. Now you can have Coca Cola, and go to see Hollywood movies. No further comments.

Don't see what part of my previous posting you think you are attacking her. I don't feel hit.


Come on! Copying most of Picasso's paints is a child's game. We did it here at school when I was 12 years old :doh:

[quote] Sports have all of that. Even some plastics in their movements. And still they are sports. Why is ballet an art, and olympic gymanstics a sport? Can you really tell the difference in terms of skill, experience, craftsmanship and aesthetics?

Not when allowing to be reduced to that limited explanation range of yours that I accepted in my previous reply to follow, l which maybe was a mistake. My explanation may not be complete, but your attempt to reject the existence of culture in general I find to be depending on extreme hair-splitting. Let's see if 5 year old kids at kindergarten can also so easily copy a painting by Caspar David Friedrich. Or can dance a pas-de-deux on stage in perfection and let it appear as if it is the easiest thing in the world. Or compose a partition for great orchestra.

Let's see if even adults can do that.

That concept is a bit elitist.

Yes, I hope it is.

Not everyone has the musical aptitude to recognize that, but even so he can find a pleasure in musics.

I was about pointing at it that if something looses value by becoming the norm and is being used as if it is not any special anymore, people loose the ability or even do not develope the ability to appreciate the value of it, or see the difference between high and low value. something is special only as long as it is rare. But not all that is rare necessarily is automatically a worthy item for that reason alone.

My grand-grandfather was a famous painter here, and I have he rited a shy part of that skill. I have always been very good at painting, I even won some contests while at school. Yet I have no aptitudes for music. I like classical music, and I can tell when I like a concert or not, depending on who plays it. But that doesn't mean I will match what an "expert" would say. Am I not worthy of buying a CD of classical music then?

Pointless. I don't see the relevance of that answer.

I know I like Mozart and Bach way more than Ermine or Britney Spears. But would Mozart or Bach have been able to sing like Britney does, even if she is not very good at it?

Why should one even want to sing like that terrible girlie? I think the motivation and intention plays a role here, and wanting to perform something sounding that bad hardly can be a criterion to define a piece of arts -e even if one cannot sing that bad although trying hard :lol:

Each one has its qualities, and in the end Mozart is a genius and Britney...well....but anyway I doubt much that Mozart had a voice fitted for singing.

I assume that is why maybe he did not sing, but compose. Britney can't do neither the one, nor the other.

Errrr... the discussion was about culture, but anyway I know no "Big Brother" fans that want to seize my house to force me to follow it. As I said, as long as my TV has an on/off knob, my freedom is preserved.

In that part of my reply to you I talked about the need for structures, and culture is a structure, too, a self-organising structure that developes independent from a single controller (although you see that different than I do).

As for general cultural degradation, well I choose the school I will bring my childs to, and I will of course guide their education both in sports and philosopy and arts, so I will do my 2 cents for their formation. My tolerance means just that if others are not interested in doing that with their sons, that's not my business. As long as I can educate mines freely, that's OK with me.

The other nevertheless do their share of forming the environment in which your kids later will have to live in. And maybe they will help to form an environment (no matter if intentionally or by acts of unawareness) that you do not hope to see you kids to live in later.

Note that in the context of this debate I do not so much argue IN FAVOUR of something (a given set of rules, a certain definition of culture), but that I argue AGAINST something.

That's not very constructive and helpful for something new and organized to self-emerge, isn't it?. Though it might well be helpful to prevent something already existing to sink :hmm:
Oh, your answers does not match my statement, we are not meeting in the same categorical order here, to lend a bit from Kant.

However, nice talking this was, but I leave for this night now.

[Skybird]

@ Skybird - massive walls of text and a lot of spirited hat and cane work, but the core question remains unanswered.

Who gets to decide what is crap?

The majority? It obviously can't be the majority, because they are already deciding, and they clearly like their crap, thank you very much. It is the majority that brings you Britney Spears and Mariah Carey and reality shows and McDonald's and all the other cultural sins you despise. In your world view, the majority can't be trusted to choose wisely, so their choices should be limited (oh, for their own good, of course).

So if it isn't the majority that decides, it must by definition be some minority. No doubt better educated, wiser, more culturally attuned than the great unwashed majority.

The idea of a minority elite making decisions for the majority against their will is not a form of government that I want. I would rather live in a world of Britney Spears - which I don't have to listen to - than in a world where some Minister of High Culture tells me I can't watch The Three Stooges, which I like, because it doesn't meet his snooty definition of adding cultural value.

This reminds me very much of the situation unfolding in Thailand. The majority - largely the underclass of uneducated farmers - overwhelmingly elected a prime minister and his party in a fully free election. The minority - mostly the upper middle class, urbanites, and the cultural elite - hated him. Some of their hatred is clearly legitimate, but the guy was elected and his popularity was very high. After getting repeatedly trounced in free elections, the elites, now partnered with the army, rolled the tanks through Bangkok and kicked the democratically elected prime minister out in a coup.

Unsurprisingly, the media - composed of course not of farmers but of the cultural elite - applauded the move. It seems they preferred having their political and cultural point of view being the dominant one - even if it meant the destruction of democracy. They constantly defend the coup - and the destruction of the constitution - by claiming that the majority is simply not educated enough to vote "correctly."

Not me. Freedom first. I'd rather have Britney Spears than someone telling me I can't have Britney Spears - even if I agree that Britney is crap.

You have not understood what I said in my talking with Hitman, obviously. Sorry, I can't express it any better. Most of your questions again - I already adressed. The rest is trying to trick me, and beat my understanding of what culture is by luring me into a debate on wether the dot above the i is really round like a circle. Not interested! ;)

[Hitman]

My explanation may not be complete, but your attempt to reject the existence of culture in general I find to be depending on extreme hair-splitting

:o And you said I didn't understand you?

Not when allowing to be reduced to that limited explanation range of yours that I accepted in my previous reply to follow, l which maybe was a mistake.

Generic expressions that have no other message than "I'm way above you and do not see it worth to discuss at your childish level anymore" have no force in themselves. However your attitude has helped me forming a more accurate image of you, as some pieces of the puzzle were still missing, and now I can understand much better many of your comments and reasonings.

You have not understood what I said in my talking with Hitman, obviously. Sorry, I can't express it any better. Most of your questions again - I already adressed. The rest is trying to trick me, and beat my understanding of what culture is by luring me into a debate on wether the dot above the i is really round like a circle. Not interested!

Anyway, when a debate enters a point when someone starts forgiving the rest for being so inferior in their intelligence and limited in their points of view and knowledge, it is about time to abandon it, as it has become pointless. :hmm:

[Skybird]

My explanation may not be complete, but your attempt to reject the existence of culture in general I find to be depending on extreme hair-splitting

:o And you said I didn't understand you?

Not when allowing to be reduced to that limited explanation range of yours that I accepted in my previous reply to follow, l which maybe was a mistake.

Generic expressions that have no other message than "I'm way above you and do not see it worth to discuss at your childish level anymore" have no force in themselves. However your attitude has helped me forming a more accurate image of you, as some pieces of the puzzle were still missing, and now I can understand much better many of your comments and reasonings.

You have not understood what I said in my talking with Hitman, obviously. Sorry, I can't express it any better. Most of your questions again - I already adressed. The rest is trying to trick me, and beat my understanding of what culture is by luring me into a debate on wether the dot above the i is really round like a circle. Not interested!

Anyway, when a debate enters a point when someone starts forgiving the rest for being so inferior in their intelligence and limited in their points of view and knowledge, it is about time to abandon it, as it has become pointless. :hmm:
I apologize for having put something into words that were so easy to be misunderstood, I did not mean it the way you understood it. I wanted to say that i was wondering if you really have understood the concept of culture that I have, since oyu repatedly came back to that sports-arts comparison, and brought this or a similair comparison more than once, while I in the talk before allowed myself to try to focus on this only - and then necessarily found myself described in your reply in a way that I consider to be an uncomplete set of categoeies and qualities by which to judge wether something is a culture or not. so again, I put it into too unprecise words and therefore caused you to misunderstand me. Sorry. My English abilities come to their limits in this discussion, and I fear bI lack the verbal competence to cover my issue good enough, that's why I wanted to stop it here, as said in my last posting.

[Hitman]

OK no harm done, english is not the native tongue for most of us here (BTW we forgot to say about US/UK heritage that thanks to them we can communicate here:up: ) and we have settled anything else per PM. We are not again but still friends :up:

I was going to post this to explain where in my opinion a good part of our lack of good communication lies, but Skybird already saw it well in a PM he sent me. I'll post my appreciations anyway, as they were done in a jockingly and humorous spirit and it seems I was to a certain extent correct.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Admittingly, it has taken me much longer than usual to understand why discussing with you leads to such confusion, but you gave me the clue when you said that "we are not in the same categorical order". Rightfully, but mainly because you are continuously shifting on each reply to the next superior "categorical" order when answering the previous question, which makes it impossible to follow a logical discussion.

Let me illustrate this with an example, even at the risk of it being simplistic:

Skybird: The RAI will no longer make reality-shows, good decision for the mental health of people (Social level)

Hitman: The RAi is a public media, shouldn't it do what people want? (Social Level)

Skybird: It is imperative to defend our culture, our legacy, and it is legitimate to ignore the opinion of the majority if it leads to nonsense (Answers, but also shifts to Political level. Now it goes about steering the society)

Hitman: Is it legitimate for a few to make decissions for the rest? I don't think that is always so (Shifts now also to political level, to keep up, and questions who and why can steer such decissions).

Skybird: Those who are not enough educated can't understand it and shall be ignored .... our culture has a tradition based on .... it has been formed by .... modern life puts that richness into danger by such and such behaviours ... (Answers, but now shifts to cultural level. We have already superceded 1) basical society level -me and my inmediate environment- , 2) political lead of that society level -who makes decissions and his legitimation-, and are now in 3) cultural level, which extends to several societies and refers to a different perspective, not vertical but inter-social or trasversal)

Hitman: But isn't there a part of a culture, -aside from a undisputable core-, that is always somehow diffuse and a kind of "grey area" before it consolidates? (Jumps now also into cultural level)

Skybird: Look, you and me are not in the same categorical level. In my replies all the above was implicit or explicit. I'm loosing time here. (Skyrockets into the infinitum)

Hitman: ****gggggggghh***** (Can't follow Skybird there without using drugs or other artificial aids)

[Bertgang]

I'm usually interested in what Skybird says, but I also have to admit that I often miss the point.

No problem in following someone at any possible level in my language, or in french; very difficult when using english, as I become soon confused and easy to misunderstandings.

[Skybird]

Hitman,

let me quote myself with one passage from an older "essay of mine", and note the criticism after the introduction, when I refer to Ken Wilber. The same problem that is pointed at in that text, I have with many people's demand here when they want me to stay with a given detail and not going beyond it - while I cannot reasonably define and understand that detail without referring to the context in which it is embedded (which necessarily represent one level up in the hierarchical order), and that context itself being a single item itself again at the same time, and being embedded in higher contexts. I understand what you are pointing at when giving the dialogue you just posted, but I do not feel myself correctly understood by you.

The following text presupposes a basic knowledge about what "radical constructivism" is.
I find the German wikipedia entry
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radikaler_Konstruktivismus
better than the English wikipedia entry from which this short note is taken:

Radical constructivism
Ernst von Glasersfeld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_von_Glasersfeld) is a prominent proponent of radical constructivism, which claims that knowledge is the self-organized cognitive process of the human brain. That is, the process of constructing knowledge regulates itself, and since knowledge is a construct rather than a compilation of empirical data, it is impossible to know the extent to which knowledge reflects an ontological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological) reality.
See also: Francisco Varela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Varela), Humberto Maturana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humberto_Maturana), and Heinz von Foerster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_von_Foerster)


But paradoxically, radical constructivism suffers a bit from that it cannot be constructivistic enough, and necessarily so. Because every single perception and experience is embedded in the situational context of other experiences and perceptions, the interplay of the five skandhas results in infinite, constant new-combining of situational elements. The single experience, the object of perception, gets forced into the con-struction of meaning that we subjectively attach to it on the basis of previous perceptions. That is what is the part of constructing in radical constructivism.

But, as Ken Wilber precisely and critically analyzes, the elements by which we define meaning, the standard by which we judge it, themselves are results of constructing processes; they originate from previous perceptions that got transformed into cultural, social preconditions in our thinking, so that the past determines what we understand to be meaningful in the present. But this, so says Wilber, means that the confrontation of “experience itself” and the “constructing phase” that processes it afterwards indicates a serious error in reasoning. Because there is no isolated “experience itself” that is not already a greater context that feeds back onto it, and into which - by theory - it yet should be turned by constructing processes, and there are no standards of constructing that are not already processes of experiencing and perception. Something is not “experience”, or “constructing” (or both in succession), but it always is both, simultaneously and at the same time. The previous experience as a starting point for constructing already is embedded into contexts, and thus it is everything else than “original”. “Admittedly”, so Wilber, “the ‘final’ mental processing again creates new contexts."

Maybe you find this even more confusing as a reply, but it describes perfectly why I find it difficult to see sense and meaning in something if taking that "something" all for itself, isolated from contexts in which it is embedded, while the given detail at the same time is representing a higher order of context of subordinate "details". You want me to stay static where I see it as having to deal with a continuum of dynamically self-organising items and contexts.

This is a bit abstract, since the quote i gave originally was written in a text that dealt with complete different themes, but the principal of "radical constructivism", and Wilber's criticism of it, nevertheless is matching here.

Great. I just managed to hijack my own thread. :rotfl:

[Hitman]

No, quite the contrary. I think I understand well how you think. In fact, each of the steps you do is also answering the previous with a more ample justification, and I can perfectly understand how the reasoning evolves into a final very wide spectrum. It certainly flows there naturally, and I perceive it like that. I always thought that this style of your thinking had a lot to do with your formation in oriental mediatation and philosophy, but now I can confirm it well.

The problem is that your method is essentially a sort of Kantian method, (Kant appeared not coincidentally in your and my previous assesments) with which it shares a good part of its basis. And in turn, I'm completely Cartesian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_Method instead (I'm per definition a huge fan of Descartes, especially rules nº1 and 4, as you will have already noticed). And it is certainly difficult to have a conversation going on that is based both in Descartes and Kant's methods; while I must discuss and finish tightly each level of discussion per itself before jumping to the next one, you are used to find the answer in the next one and can't find a correct answer in an isolated context.:doh:

Anyway, I really like to discuss with you, even if I'm only an aficionado compared with you when it comes to philosophical background. Cheers :up:

[Wim Libaers]

...

Total degeneracy.

Hell, we are not talking about the prohibition of political magazines, suppression of opinions on scientific opinions, and the censoring of cultural programs! Don't make this bigger than it is. We are talking about crap.

Simple that. No philosopher and no rocketscientist is needed to realise that. One needs no encyclopedia to realise when something is crap.


Sure, and now that we've decided that politicians have the authority to decide what is and isn't crap, and what must be banned...

What if their next step is to ban criticism of Islam? Because, surely, any denial that it is a religion of peace is "crap". Any suggestion that more muslims in Europe is not a cultural enrichment is "crap". Right?

Sure, reality shows are crap. Sure, it's better if they're gone. But allowing reality shows to exist is, in my opinion, a lesser evil than giving our politicians full authority to decide which things are "crap" and must be hidden from the people.

[Skybird]

Again, don't make this bigger than it is, Wim. I tried to describe that (especially young) people's mind reflect what they put into it, so when you allow endless consumking of "crap", don't be surprised to finally find yourself with a population that simply is too dumb to care for critizising Islam (to stay in your example). Freedom is no right for me, it is an ability that must be learned and then trained. If people misunderstand it and take the "freedom" to endlessly dmaage themselves, then this is not what I see as the vital interdynamic relationship between individal and society. It is the freedom by which a baby would consume sugar water and candies all day long - and by doing so, kill itself.

I understand very well what you are concerned about. Nevertheless I recommend not to start splitting hairs when a case is so very obvious like it is with the issue in this thread. Who demands unlimited freedoms, also accepts the possebility of unlimzted damage being done by the one, or the many. Were man is not alone in his own private little universe, there cannot be something like unlimited freedom - sooner or later he limits the freedom of others by demanding his unlimited freedom for himself. If you want to have a voice in a democratic society, imo you have the obligation to make sure that your voice is educated enought that it is worth to be heared. Else it is no argument he can make when adding his voite to the general discussion, but it is mindless babbling only. One or two generations ago not few people were still convinced that trying to acchieve a good level of education is not a choice, but an obligation for the citizen. Many families of the so-called "Bildungsbürgertum" saw it like this: an obligation that was owed to the community in order to be able to add something good to the overall culture of the community. That was about manners. Arts. Knowledge. Professional abilities. - Today, young people grow up with idols like Britney Spears (special friend of mine :arrgh!: ) Big Brother and - reality shows. We do not teach them about manners and ethics anymore.

And then we wonder why the young get more and more uncontrolled and violant in their manners, become selfish, fixated on their own wellbeing and entertainment, and become more and more íncompetent in even basic skills like reading, writing and maths?

I have a sharp eye myself on politicians deconstructing democracy, the dstruction is in full speed. but the risks you refer to I cannot see here.

It is said that children are our future. If we fail to improve their education and standard of being civilised dramatically, then our future will look like what we see in desinterest, violence, lacking responsibility, lacking skills and knowledge, and sillyness today when looking at general schools.

And then tyrants and ursupators will have easy play to reign.

[Tchocky]

Skybird, it's amazing that you started that post with "don't make this bigger than it is"

[Skybird]

:lol: Some hidden humour in your reply, eh? :lol:

[TteFAboB]

It's a state TV of some sort. Ban it. The entire channel, that is. Privatize it. I'll buy. I'll get Saudi or Dubai money and buy it. I'll have to feed you with 10 hours of Islamic preaching, 10 hours of Saudi/Dubai ass-licking, 1 hour of commercials in Arabic and finally the remanining 4 hours a day will be dedicated to the declamation of Skybird's essays.