whats your favorite way to calculate speed?

[duelen]

topic says it...also where and how do you reset the tdc so i can put new numbers in, when i need a new range i cant do it cause the device to line up the pictures does not pop up.

very hard to use manual tdc with no detailed guide and the only way to calculate speed as said in the game manual is bugged.

[davest]

The only and real guide was kindly put together by Neal Stevens,

Thanks Neal! :rock:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108689

Otherwise I don't think I Would of ever tried the manual TDC myself, looking forward to the implementation of the speed chronometer one day. Until then doing ok with my guessmates at close range and having a blast. :D

[duelen]

that stinks

[duelen]

oh yea, if u read in the manual they said they purposely made the ruler inaccurate to simulate how hard it was to calculate speed using the map... doing that, using the chart someone posted, and just starting at half are the only ways i know how to calculate speed and all are very inaccurate :shifty:

[AVGWarhawk]

This is how I do it. I get distance and AOB. I then guess on the speed. I click the PK. If the PK shows AOB changing to fast as to what my scope is showing, I know my speed is off....either fast or slow depending how the AOB has changed since first input. I adjust the speed until the PK shows AOB not changing as I progress towards the target. In other words, if my PK AOB does not change I know I have the speed down to actual speed.


Another way to explain. If I show the AOB at 90 degrees. speed 8kts and feed this to the PK I watch actual scope and PK movements. If the AOB starts to move higher than 90 degrees yet my scope still shows me at 90 degrees then I know I have judged the speed to fast. I drop it a kt or two and watch it again. Once that AOB stays consistent with what I see I know my speed is correct.

That is how I do it anyway. I use the time piece to determine when dinner will be ready:smug:

[PeriscopeDepth]

that stinks

That there's no working magical auto speed stop watch? I don't recall there being one in WWII either. If you're going for the challenge/realism in manual TDC I don't understand why people use the speed chrono.

PD

[Snowman999]

that stinks

That there's no working magical auto speed stop watch? I don't recall there being one in WWII either. If you're going for the challenge/realism in manual TDC I don't understand why people use the speed chrono.

PD

If you're going for realism the primary way speed was input was from sonar turn-counts. On-line sonar manuals give precise methodologies, down to determining three- or four-bladed screws. It was a fire-control PARTY--a team effort.

Since I read here that the game doesn't allow sonar to be used at PD (!!!) there is no "realistic" way to determine speed.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I wish there was blade counts too... But there's not. Distance = Speed X Time is realistic enough for me. It's not tough to get a good range/AOB with practice. You can then use error in the position keeper to adjust for speed.

PD

[AVGWarhawk]

You can then use error in the position keeper to adjust for speed.


Gosh, I just said that but you said it in fewer words:yep::up:

[Captain_Jack]

that stinks

That there's no working magical auto speed stop watch? I don't recall there being one in WWII either. If you're going for the challenge/realism in manual TDC I don't understand why people use the speed chrono.

PD

If you're going for realism the primary way speed was input was from sonar turn-counts. On-line sonar manuals give precise methodologies, down to determining three- or four-bladed screws. It was a fire-control PARTY--a team effort.

Since I read here that the game doesn't allow sonar to be used at PD (!!!) there is no "realistic" way to determine speed.

Exactly! A Fire Control Team Effort.. So the so called "magical" stop watch simulates this team effort....Plus the fact there is no way in the game to count propeller revolutions.

But the Fire Control Party could also determine speed by how long it takes the target to get from one point to another based on its range. Is that not what the stopwatch also simulates? Timing the target as it travels?

But, back to the original topic, I also use AVGWARHAWK's method. If the TDC position keeper bearing is wrong then i know I screwed up. In fact I was watching the Silent Hunter Series last night and the actual skippers also said that they knew their data was wrong if the TDC Bearing solution was off, so they would input new data....So AVGWARHAWK wins the Realism Award!

[Snowman999]

I wish there was blade counts too... But there's not. Distance = Speed X Time is realistic enough for me. It's not tough to get a good range/AOB with practice. You can then use error in the position keeper to adjust for speed.

PD

I understand that works in the game; I was merely commenting on the belief here that, after two weeks, "TDC cowboys" are thick on the ground.

The game is the game. In reality, real-world, sonar speed data is far more accurate than AOB calls and is what the solution tracks around, not course. The game presents nice, clear, hull-up pictures. In real approaches initial contact was by smoke, and initial AOB calls were often from masts alone. I've tried surfaced periscope AOB calls using two VERY tiny sticks above the horizon (try maybe three pixels) and been off by sixty degrees. And forget port or starboard on the first call using masts. You don't have an ID.

The order of accuracy in an observation is always 1) bearing (duh) 2) speed (sonar) 3) range 4) AOB. Error-tracking on the PK is most often to refine the track, not the speed. Given that target course can change quickly (zigs) while speed changes slowly (inertia), error-tracking against bearing is usually an AOB check.

Game graphics are amazing compared to 1982 Silent Service, but in some ways they're too good. At sea you get glare, mist, whacky paint jobs, environmental lighting on the target, waves and spray, etc. that makes AOB calls hellish. Even very, very experienced COs wouldn't claim to be within ten degrees on a consistent basis at 10,000 yards. On an initial look of 5-7 seconds being within 30 degrees is pretty good. In the real world.

[DeePsix501]

Most the time I just halve the speed for merchants and fire a spread, been getting good at it. If I want to be precise, I use a bearing change over time chart. Since I usualy attack from about 90 degrees off bow, It is pretty accurate. Longer Observation = More Accurate Speed Guess.

[mookiemookie]

http://www.topshotgta.com/images/sports_radar_gun.gif

Cost me a heck of a lot of renown, but it works for me. :cool:

(Seriously, I'll have to try AVG's method...)

[ParaB]

I plot the contacts on the map and use the 3-minute(15s)-rule to calculate speed. Works like a charm. Since I rarely fire from beyond 1000 yards a knot or two doesn't make a difference when firing a three-spread salvo.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.topshotgta.com/images/sports_radar_gun.gif

Cost me a heck of a lot of renown, but it works for me. :cool:

(Seriously, I'll have to try AVG's method...)


:rotfl:

It works pretty well mookiemookie. If that AOB does not change then you should be dead on for speed.

[duelen]

sorry for being a noob but where does it say the AOB on the PK?

also, isnt there a bug where the PK does not show the AOB on port

[Ducimus]

Dofus type question:

Does the 3:15 rule work for imperial measurments? Works great in metric, but I honestly havent tried yet in imperial, so im just asking.

[NefariousKoel]

Dofus type question:

Does the 3:15 rule work for imperial measurments? Works great in metric, but I honestly havent tried yet in imperial, so im just asking.
3:15 for Metric... 3:00 for Imperial. :up:

It works wonders with my Imperial. At 3 minutes.. I check to see if the distance just barely made it to the next 1/10th of a NM. For instance, I've had a lot just barely hit 0.5nm but not quite in the middle of 0.5nm. They were doing 9 knots (instead of 10). On the occasions I had a full 6 minutes to double check it came out exactly as predicted.

Of course, I have map contacts showing since my Stadimeter is quite screwy.

[Ducimus]

Thanks. I really need to write that down. :D

[RedHammer]

I`ve tried many different methods, IMO: none of which suits me. Almost had some success on that AOB-Time method of which was earlier made a tabell of, but mostly the enemy is somewhat un-routined in his movements, which keeps getting me loads of misses and minutes of speculating and frustration as I dive away from a furious and angry destroyer of which captain seems to have a fetish at ramming antique subs..

Still, the distance measure thingy in the map is totally weird, you kno, the scale thingy. First step forexample, is 310 meters, second step can be forexample 567 meters.. so I am still left to guess how much distance he travelled at those 3:15.. Plus, 3:15 is a huge waste of time, I can barely get close enough, let alone get accurate readings. Sure I`d like to guesstimate speed and do fancy map drawing.. As soon as I can have just as many hundred hours like the other TDC hardcore`s here has?? My Tactic`s are all based on quick but thought off actions and a quick escape, not a vacation in the enemys backyard..

I got no idea how many misses I have had with torps just because half a knot more or less on the speed.. Let alone, sometimes the TDC is simply just not working, it does not put in the correct speed even if correctly measured and put in, I have to manually raise the speed in the attack map and simply shoot valueable torps based on my gut feeling.. Same problem occurs in SH3, and it seems it all happens just because the enemy ship passes 0 degrees in my periscope?? :S
Donno about realism, but I don`t wanna leave it anyone to decide for me if its fun to use 2 hours clicking on speed comp button like a mad man, dodge planes as if they were bugs on the highway. Only to miss with every single torp on a fat merchant/tanker. Sorry, but that simply just does not cut it for me. May sound like double morale.
So, IMHO: manual tdc? Yes! But to a certain extent! I dont want to sit there and do math`s all day long while a Carrier goes right past my intercept course and get my ass fired just because of something of which should have been corrected a while ago..


S! To all

RH

[duelen]

tell me what im doing wrong...
Im testing in the torbedo tutorial in game and the PK always says wrong stuff

1 i identify as mogami or w/e
2 i get range
3 speed as 9
4 AOB around 90

so I check the bearing on the PK to the periscope and its always off by around 10-15. whats up with that?

[NefariousKoel]

RedHammer...

If you're using the 3 minute (3:15 for metric) rule, use the map tools. As I said before, I keep "show on map" difficulty since the Stadimeter is screwed for me.

Anyway, in this case - take the pencil. Zoom in on the ship you're targeting until you can see it's shap instead of a symbol. Bring up the stop watch, which is accessible by left-clicking once on the periscope tab, then L-cliking on the stopwatch symbol. Now take your pencil and make a mark right in the center of the target ship and smartly right click to get rid of the pencil and click the stopwatch to get it started.

A bit before 3 minutes have passed (I prefer Imperial), zoom in on the map around your target, take the pencil again, and make another mark right in the middle of it when the timer hits 3. Leave the stopwatch going in case you can get a 6 minute in for double-checking.

Now, click on the Ruler. With the ruler tool ready, click on your first pencil mark, then aim for your second one (the 3 minute mark). Multiply that amount by 2 and drop any decimal points. That is it's speed in knots. Ex. - 0.6 nm = 12 knots.

Note: I generally check exactly how far the bar is (in this example) from 0.5 to 0.6nm. If I see that my second mark just barely makes it to 0.6nm but not in the middle of that range on the ruler (ex.), I subtract 1 knot off the end result.

If you manage a 6 minute test, it will run true every time. Just drop the decimal point on range and that's the speed in knots after 6 minutes.

[AVGWarhawk]

tell me what im doing wrong...
Im testing in the torbedo tutorial in game and the PK always says wrong stuff

1 i identify as mogami or w/e
2 i get range
3 speed as 9
4 AOB around 90

so I check the bearing on the PK to the periscope and its always off by around 10-15. whats up with that?

Sounds like a slight miscalculation on speed. Depending which way your PK is off by 10-15, readjust your AOB until PK looks and stays to what you see out of the scope. Once that is completed, your solution for a hit should be pretty good.

[RedHammer]

here its lots of maths again.. sorry, not my turf. I didnt quite get your explanation.
And as I said before, I am terrible at maths, got the worst possible rating/character at school, and the only math I can do without calculator is adding and degrees stuff (Intercept course of 90 degree.).. Sorry, but I dont wish to alt+tab the game to open the calculator, just to get a simple shooting solution, as well as getting that sound card problem when I do alt+tab+ risking the game hanging up or perhaps even ctd :S

It`s that simple.. I dont want to do heaps of maths just to sink a AI ship in a computer game.. I am willing to use TDC because it adds to the pleasure of sinking ships. But not when it requires 6 minutes (And I thought 3 minutes and 15 seconds was bad.. While i am trying to add numbers and substract, etc etc, Jap destroyers will be over me in a second!) Just to get a somewhat fair shooting solution on a pathetic merchant..

Sorry again for taking your time and not understanding your explanations quite.
But my maths are really really terrible atm, and if the game cant deliver gameplay as promised (it`s for 7+ kids.. Why is it that hard for a 19 year old??) You shouldn`t bother trying to explain math`s to me, You`ll loose me after 5 sentences.

By all means, I am not critizizing the dev team for making a ****ty game, when they had such a short time to complete it. But uhm.. Making atleast TDC work could have been one of the top priorities? :P Why add a I-400 and A Dutch Ghostship while totally leaving Narwhal out of the question... Exactly, We don`t know.


S! To all


RH

[raduz]

I wish there was blade counts too... But there's not. Distance = Speed X Time is realistic enough for me. It's not tough to get a good range/AOB with practice. You can then use error in the position keeper to adjust for speed.

PD

why the turn count is not possible in SH4? not even under the periscope depth?

[Viceman]

I made a small instructions to friend:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4828/targettingcv7.jpg

kohteen kulkureitti = target's course
havainto = observation
suunta = bearing
etäisyys = distance

hope thats enough information, and im sure you get the point. You should wait 60secs between observations, and fire torpedo when target is front of you (bearing 000). You can find all tools from game, i just made that with autocad at work because i was bored. :D

You need to do little preparation with your position versus target before you can use this, and you must stay still with your sub.

[NefariousKoel]

RedHammer..
The only math involved in the 3 minute rule is multiplying by 2.;)

[duelen]

yea, you should witch to auto tdc or w/e its called. just look in periscope and wait for the green.

Or, I have been getting great shots using the attack map. It shows where your torps will go, so if it shows it leading, i reduce speed and adjust AOB.:up:

[LukeFF]

This is how I do it. I get distance and AOB. I then guess on the speed. I click the PK. If the PK shows AOB changing to fast as to what my scope is showing, I know my speed is off....either fast or slow depending how the AOB has changed since first input. I adjust the speed until the PK shows AOB not changing as I progress towards the target. In other words, if my PK AOB does not change I know I have the speed down to actual speed.


Another way to explain. If I show the AOB at 90 degrees. speed 8kts and feed this to the PK I watch actual scope and PK movements. If the AOB starts to move higher than 90 degrees yet my scope still shows me at 90 degrees then I know I have judged the speed to fast. I drop it a kt or two and watch it again. Once that AOB stays consistent with what I see I know my speed is correct.

Excellent method, thank you! I just tried this out and it worked perfectly.

[Banquet]

This is how I do it. I get distance and AOB. I then guess on the speed. I click the PK. If the PK shows AOB changing to fast as to what my scope is showing, I know my speed is off....either fast or slow depending how the AOB has changed since first input. I adjust the speed until the PK shows AOB not changing as I progress towards the target. In other words, if my PK AOB does not change I know I have the speed down to actual speed.


Another way to explain. If I show the AOB at 90 degrees. speed 8kts and feed this to the PK I watch actual scope and PK movements. If the AOB starts to move higher than 90 degrees yet my scope still shows me at 90 degrees then I know I have judged the speed to fast. I drop it a kt or two and watch it again. Once that AOB stays consistent with what I see I know my speed is correct.

That is how I do it anyway. I use the time piece to determine when dinner will be ready:smug:


This sounds pretty good, especially if playing without map updates (which I'm going to try *shudder*)

[AVGWarhawk]

@Luke/Banquet


Good deal. I'm glad it helps in you solutions. :up:

[Banquet]

Should the TDC be 'remembering' data for separate ships? I'm sure I read somewhere it would do this but all it remembers for me is the ship type.

I.e I have to input range, AOB, and speed for each ship and then if I point the periscope at another ship I had previously input this on - the data stays the same as the previous ship.. I was under the impression the TDC would remember AOB, speed and range for each ship I had input it for.. or did I get the wrong idea on this?

[AVGWarhawk]

Should the TDC be 'remembering' data for separate ships? I'm sure I read somewhere it would do this but all it remembers for me is the ship type.

I.e I have to input range, AOB, and speed for each ship and then if I point the periscope at another ship I had previously input this on - the data stays the same as the previous ship.. I was under the impression the TDC would remember AOB, speed and range for each ship I had input it for.. or did I get the wrong idea on this?
In all reality it should not remember as this was a mechanical type computer. Not much should change from ship to ship as they all kept same speed and heading in a convoy. Change AOB and distance is about it.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think it just remembers ID. IRL, without multiple TDCs I don't see how a simple mechanical computer would remember multiple target speeds, AOB, and range.

Edit: You beat me to it once again Warhawk! :)

PD

[wahoo]

http://www.topshotgta.com/images/sports_radar_gun.gif

Cost me a heck of a lot of renown, but it works for me. :cool:

(Seriously, I'll have to try AVG's method...)




Hey Mookie,

Are you the same 'Mookie' as on DU????

Up Periscope!!!

Wahoo

Parche (DU)

[nattydread]

The magical stop-watch actually simulates the team work involved in taking distance and range bearings over time. Its the most efficient way of modeling that team interaction considering there is no way to do all that work silmultaneously as it was in real life. I'd love it if I could take a bearing and range reading and relay it to the crew and then start the watch, then after some time take another bearing and range reading and add it all together with the tim elapsed to get a good speed estimate.

What sucks is that they wont even allow you to pause and go to the map to plug all the info in. It just makes everything even more inaccurate...perhaps its a bit more frustrating because I use a S-boat so I lack the luxuary of speed to always set up for shots well in advance, I tend to always arrive with minimal time to spare.

[Banquet]

Thanks AVGWarhawk and PD.. I must have been mistaken.. what you say makes sense.

[Quillan]

What sucks is that they wont even allow you to pause and go to the map to plug all the info in. It just makes everything even more inaccurate...perhaps its a bit more frustrating because I use a S-boat so I lack the luxuary of speed to always set up for shots well in advance, I tend to always arrive with minimal time to spare.

Do some modification to the controls.cfg file and you can. One of the entries for each command is context; if you add 2 to the context entry you can do the command when the game is paused. Making the nav map context "1,2" will let you use the nav map while paused, so you can draw lines and circles, measure ranges, and so forth.

As for me, assuming I have the time, I prefer to plot the exact ship position, plot it again 3 minutes and 15 seconds later, then measure the distance between the two points. The distance in hundreds of meters is the speed in knots.

[Powerthighs]

While I understand all these ideas and how to use the TDC, what I have found challenging is being able to implement any of these methods and still have time for a shot. I can't imagine having a ship close enough to id, then having a full three minutes to calculate the speed (or having enough time to verify the accuracy of the PK settings), then finalizing the firing solution and getting off a few torpedos while the ship is still in optimal range.

It might be possible if you position yourself perfectly long before the convoy gets there, but I find that when I detect convoys visually, the DDs see me before I get close enough to be able get any kind of heading info on the convoy itself. If I'm submerged they don't see me but I don't have a chance at moving fast enough to get into position.

[Banquet]

While I understand all these ideas and how to use the TDC, what I have found challenging is being able to implement any of these methods and still have time for a shot. I can't imagine having a ship close enough to id, then having a full three minutes to calculate the speed (or having enough time to verify the accuracy of the PK settings), then finalizing the firing solution and getting off a few torpedos while the ship is still in optimal range.

It might be possible if you position yourself perfectly long before the convoy gets there, but I find that when I detect convoys visually, the DDs see me before I get close enough to be able get any kind of heading info on the convoy itself. If I'm submerged they don't see me but I don't have a chance at moving fast enough to get into position.

It is difficult.. I'm struggling too for the same reasons.. but one way around it is to make pass a periscope depth.. take a look at the general layout of the convoy, ship types, escorts and most importantly heading and speed of the convoy. Then increase distance.. come back to the surface and steam ahead of where you calculate (based on their heading and speed) they will be. You can then settle into a nice submerged position as they roll by. You should already have their speed, a good idea of AOB (set it for 90 degrees and hold fire till they hit that position) All you need to do is ID them again and get range.. Unless they change course.. in which case you're buggered! (been there, bought the T-shirt!) :D

[BlackSpot]

What sucks is that they wont even allow you to pause and go to the map to plug all the info in. It just makes everything even more inaccurate...perhaps its a bit more frustrating because I use a S-boat so I lack the luxuary of speed to always set up for shots well in advance, I tend to always arrive with minimal time to spare.

Ahh, but I think you can. Looking through the scope paused, unpause, press F3 to go to the charts, then pause again. I'm pretty sure you can now use the tools on the map whilst paused.

[duelen]

This is how I do it. I get distance and AOB. I then guess on the speed. I click the PK. If the PK shows AOB changing to fast as to what my scope is showing, I know my speed is off....either fast or slow depending how the AOB has changed since first input. I adjust the speed until the PK shows AOB not changing as I progress towards the target. In other words, if my PK AOB does not change I know I have the speed down to actual speed.


Another way to explain. If I show the AOB at 90 degrees. speed 8kts and feed this to the PK I watch actual scope and PK movements. If the AOB starts to move higher than 90 degrees yet my scope still shows me at 90 degrees then I know I have judged the speed to fast. I drop it a kt or two and watch it again. Once that AOB stays consistent with what I see I know my speed is correct.

That is how I do it anyway. I use the time piece to determine when dinner will be ready:smug:


are you looking at the top or bottom dial on the PK? not sure what they represent as I dont know how to check my calculations like osme of you are saying. I mostly look at the attack map

[AVGWarhawk]

This is how I do it. I get distance and AOB. I then guess on the speed. I click the PK. If the PK shows AOB changing to fast as to what my scope is showing, I know my speed is off....either fast or slow depending how the AOB has changed since first input. I adjust the speed until the PK shows AOB not changing as I progress towards the target. In other words, if my PK AOB does not change I know I have the speed down to actual speed.


Another way to explain. If I show the AOB at 90 degrees. speed 8kts and feed this to the PK I watch actual scope and PK movements. If the AOB starts to move higher than 90 degrees yet my scope still shows me at 90 degrees then I know I have judged the speed to fast. I drop it a kt or two and watch it again. Once that AOB stays consistent with what I see I know my speed is correct.

That is how I do it anyway. I use the time piece to determine when dinner will be ready:smug:


are you looking at the top or bottom dial on the PK? not sure what they represent as I dont know how to check my calculations like osme of you are saying. I mostly look at the attack map

I only use the attack map to get the track of the target and range. After that it is all scope or TBT. What you look at is the top dial. The top dial represents the AOB that you set. If the top picture starts to change compared to what you see in the scope/TBT then your speed calculation is off. If the AOB starts to change, adjust your input on the speed of target until that top picture representing AOB on the target does not change relative to what you see in the scope/TBT. This is the hardest to find but the most critical piece of the puzzle...IMHO. Do not fire until you are 1000-1500 yards away.

I just used this method and my two torpedos hit in the exact same spot. I started my target at 8kts(rough seas slow the targets). May AOB set started to move ahead of what it should have been. I adjusted speed on the TDC to 7kts. My AOB on the TDC looked and stayed just like I see from my scope. These observations took over 5 minutes. Constant change and updating until the PK is dead on to what is happening in my scope view. Once your are dead on, then sit back and wait for the moment. These calculations are slow and methodical. The race is not won by the swift in submarines. I was dead on at 7kts. The rest was just lessening the distance to 1000 yards and I let them fly. Two hit and one prematured. 7100 tons sunk:yep: Not the most scientific but it works.


When you are in the attack mode....slow yourself down and plan your work and work your plan. I get excited and want it all to happen fast but I have to slow myself down and take as many observations that I can without being spotted.

[AVGWarhawk]

While I understand all these ideas and how to use the TDC, what I have found challenging is being able to implement any of these methods and still have time for a shot. I can't imagine having a ship close enough to id, then having a full three minutes to calculate the speed (or having enough time to verify the accuracy of the PK settings), then finalizing the firing solution and getting off a few torpedos while the ship is still in optimal range.

It might be possible if you position yourself perfectly long before the convoy gets there, but I find that when I detect convoys visually, the DDs see me before I get close enough to be able get any kind of heading info on the convoy itself. If I'm submerged they don't see me but I don't have a chance at moving fast enough to get into position.


Sometimes you are just in a bad postion. As Banquet said, do an end round. Race ahead on the suface in the projected track and submerge. You are an ambush machine so let the convoy come at you. You will have plenty of time to pick your targets. Attempt to enter the convoy at the convoys 2 or 10 o'clock postion to avoid the DD. Once he has past you...your in and the convoy is yours to hit:yep: . As far as doing it all in three minutes...start you calculations as early as you can. The more time you have the more your mind draws what is occurring and making a big picture of it. It takes some practice but once you get that first hit and it was done all by your calculations, it is a wonderful feeling.

[duelen]

im sorry for so many questions

when you say you look in your periscope to compare to the top picture in the pk, are you talking about the bearing numbers or the picture of the boat? ITs probly simple but my mind is not graspinng it:cry:

[nattydread]

While I understand all these ideas and how to use the TDC, what I have found challenging is being able to implement any of these methods and still have time for a shot. I can't imagine having a ship close enough to id, then having a full three minutes to calculate the speed (or having enough time to verify the accuracy of the PK settings), then finalizing the firing solution and getting off a few torpedos while the ship is still in optimal range.

It might be possible if you position yourself perfectly long before the convoy gets there, but I find that when I detect convoys visually, the DDs see me before I get close enough to be able get any kind of heading info on the convoy itself. If I'm submerged they don't see me but I don't have a chance at moving fast enough to get into position.

It is difficult.. I'm struggling too for the same reasons.. but one way around it is to make pass a periscope depth.. take a look at the general layout of the convoy, ship types, escorts and most importantly heading and speed of the convoy. Then increase distance.. come back to the surface and steam ahead of where you calculate (based on their heading and speed) they will be. You can then settle into a nice submerged position as they roll by. You should already have their speed, a good idea of AOB (set it for 90 degrees and hold fire till they hit that position) All you need to do is ID them again and get range.. Unless they change course.. in which case you're buggered! (been there, bought the T-shirt!) :D


Its hard to do execute end-arounds in a S-boat.

[Dustyboats]

Providing you are dived, your passive sonar gives you a bearing. Use the "marker" to place an "X" at the extreme end of that bearing and note "time".. As the bearing rate alters, place another and so on until you have about 6 or 7 "X's". They may seem to be scattered but you can take a mean line through them, using the "ruler". This should give you a fairly accurate course of the target until you close to your "prior to aiming point". Having those "X's" timed you can now work out speed by taking the "compass" tool and get "distance travelled by target" measuring from your first "X" marker to your last......in so much time, (which you have noted), target has travelled so many nm or meters(or parts of)...you have your speed to within + or - 1Knt.

[skullman86]

Not really a favorite per se but it's currently the only way I know how to get speeds and it works.Yes...........I guess the speeds :dead:, only because I cant figure out the tdc (I got used to SH3, I could sink 'em while submerged then they go and change it :damn: ), I just use the periscope.....From my experience, merchant vessels go about 3-4 knts on average (when they are unaware of my presence) and cruisers/destroyers go about 8-10.5 knts on average (again.....only if unaware of my presence).I hit my targets quite often actually, not always kills *cough* duds *cough* but I do at least hit the target :rotfl:.

[LukeFF]

Its hard to do execute end-arounds in a S-boat.

It's essentially a WWI-era boat. Go figure... ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

im sorry for so many questions

when you say you look in your periscope to compare to the top picture in the pk, are you talking about the bearing numbers or the picture of the boat? ITs probly simple but my mind is not graspinng it:cry:

Ok, simpler terms. Say the target is at 90 degress to your bow. You set the AOB on the PK at 90 degrees. Now imagine if you will your sub travelling north and your target is travelling west. The PK outline of the target will have pointed bow pointing to the left. Your PK for your sub will have the bow pointing up and at a 90 degree to it. Set what you believe to be the target speed. Wait about a minute and check AOB again. If you see the targets AOB has increased visually from the scope as compared to your first 90 degree AOB input to say 100 degrees then you know you have dialed in a lesser speed then what is seen in your scope. The PK AOB dial will still show 90 degrees because this is the value you inputed to for he PK to keep. But hey, I look in my scope and now the target is at 100 degrees AOB and my AOB on the TDC said it should still be at 90 degrees. My target is moving faster than I predicted. Slow the speed down in the TDC of the target and get another look in about a minute. Look of the target shows 90 degrees to my eye and my PK outline of target is showing 90 degrees. My target speed is dead on. Keep making checks every minute or so. As long as the top dials AOB is not changing in relation to your observation in the scope then you know you speed calculation is good.

[Hitman]

The PK AOB dial will still show 90 degrees because this is the value you inputed to for he PK to keep

Are you sure? The PK does a simulation or prediction about the target movement, based on your first inputs. The AOB will only stay the same if you are approaching your target from 90º at the SAME speed the target travels (Both sides of that triangle turn shorter at the same proportion). But if you or he are going faster, the AOB will change even if the solution is still correct.

I think it is the target bearing in the own ship dial what will tell you if speed is good or bad, not the AOB. The AOb in 99% of the situations is dynamic, i.e. changes constantly as the ships approach. Only exception is the one described above.:doh:

I think :stare:

[Banquet]

Its hard to do execute end-arounds in a S-boat.

It goes faster than most merchants.. it will take longer but it's do-able

[AVGWarhawk]

The PK AOB dial will still show 90 degrees because this is the value you inputed to for he PK to keep
Are you sure? The PK does a simulation or prediction about the target movement, based on your first inputs. The AOB will only stay the same if you are approaching your target from 90º at the SAME speed the target travels (Both sides of that triangle turn shorter at the same proportion). But if you or he are going faster, the AOB will change even if the solution is still correct.

I think it is the target bearing in the own ship dial what will tell you if speed is good or bad, not the AOB. The AOb in 99% of the situations is dynamic, i.e. changes constantly as the ships approach. Only exception is the one described above.:doh:

I think :stare:
Good point and it might possibly be but I use the AOB indicator on the TDC. If she start changing to what I see in the scope, I know my speed is off. From what I see, your positions should not change at all on the PK once the values are inputed. My sub is the constant. I have my rudder amidships. I have not made an navigational changes. Therefore, the lower dial that is my sub should not change at all. Now, the target is unpredictable but in most cases just sails at a steady speed at a steady bearing. Therefore, the top AOB dial should stay the same as well. Once the PK is in motion the values inputed should remain a constant unless one of the values is screwed. More often than not the speed is screwed. Distance is pretty easy to get, setting the AOB is pretty easy...now guessing the speed is the hard part. At any rate, once your dials stay constant you have a good solution. What I have found is my AOB dial starts to move and looks nothing like I see in the scope, my speed is off. Make the adjustment until both dials (you and the target) stay constant. Get to under 1500 yards, dials look like what you see in the scope and you bag your merchant. Remember though, all three values are important because as you get closer the target is passing or getting ready to pass the bow of your submarine your dials should start to move as the PK is predicting mechanically were the target is. At a great distance your dials will move very little or not at all. As you get closer the dials will start moving. I mean 1500 yards and closing the dials will really be moving quite a bit. They should at this point be doing that. They are keeping the position based on your three inputs. No need to adjust again because the gyros are updated as to what angle and speed. Quite a simple machine the TDC, but a wonderful device once you play with it and learn how it works.

In fact, if you are dead on with you PK. Lower the scope. Watch your distance to target slowly diminish. Once you are under 1500 yards, fire! No need to look in the scope when you do this because the PK has keep the constant provided your last calculations were very accurate and the target did not change speed or course. Watch the clock until you hear "TREFFER" oops "Torpedo hit".

[Onkel Neal]

Its hard to do execute end-arounds in a S-boat.

And it should be! :) Guess that makes the pressure and suspense even greater.

[Schlageter-JG26]

Personally, I lick my finger and point it in the air to guesstimate. :D

In this game, unless you are firing A) beyond range of 3000, B) at a target as it zig-zags or C) at a ship which is bearing straight in on you.... the solutions aren't terribly difficult. Generally, 2 clicks left or right will hit. For me, it only gets tough when the ranges are under 800... say when a DD is hunting you at full speed. Then its a tough call, no matter if they are doing 5kn, 9kn, 21kn or 34kn. Getting the solution right at that range is a pain. Less so if you open the tube first.

Caveat: I try to take all my shots with a 90* angle on the target, thus my generality of 1-2 clicks works well... its rare that I slip one past the target.

[sea enemy]

From the book Wahoo by R.H. O'Kane:
"Two more fish were on their way to hit amidships and under her bow, all in an elapsed of 15 seconds.
Buckley reported, "All hot, straight and normal," but I could see the faint, blue smoke of our last torpedo
heading towards, not leading the enemy. They would all miss astern. We fired another torpedo with the destroyer's
speed on the TDC increased to 18 knots, but now alerted, she turned away just in time..."

They had the same problems in the real thing, too....Missing a DD at point blank range because of a 5 knot speed TDC entry error.

[Simets]

This is my favourite way :know:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110583

[AVGWarhawk]

Personally, I lick my finger and point it in the air to guesstimate. :D

In this game, unless you are firing A) beyond range of 3000, B) at a target as it zig-zags or C) at a ship which is bearing straight in on you.... the solutions aren't terribly difficult. Generally, 2 clicks left or right will hit. For me, it only gets tough when the ranges are under 800... say when a DD is hunting you at full speed. Then its a tough call, no matter if they are doing 5kn, 9kn, 21kn or 34kn. Getting the solution right at that range is a pain. Less so if you open the tube first.

Caveat: I try to take all my shots with a 90* angle on the target, thus my generality of 1-2 clicks works well... its rare that I slip one past the target.

I do not tangle with DD unless I will win for sure or I'm cornered. I would rather fight another day.;)