The political divide on this forum...

[fatty]

...is getting pretty annoying. I have trolled on this forum for a few years before I started posting and it seems to me that things have not been this bad in my time.

Yes, we all have our opinions about Islam, terrorism, Israel, left, right, liberals, conservatives, etc. etc. I enjoy friendly debate as much as any of you but some posts here have ranged from carrying subtle unfriendly undertones to being outright insulting. I am not posting this to present examples or point fingers; members from all sides have been tense lately, including myself.

So please, let's all step back, take a deep breath, and repeat after me: "there no place like submarines." What? You've forgotten the common thread that brings us here to mingle like civilized, friendly adults? Here are some pictures to bring you back to Earth/THE OCEAN:

http://gotymedia.gamespy.com/2005/images/screens/pc/silenthunter3_pc.jpghttp://www.gamerdad.com/images/DangerousWatersPC021.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/40/Akula_class_submarine.JPG/300px-Akula_class_submarine.JPGhttp://www.cnrc.navy.mil/nucfield/media/ship%20gifs/ssn688.gifhttp://www.brazosport.cc.tx.us/~nstevens/blenny1.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/USN_MK-46_Mod_5_lightweight_torpedo.jpg/300px-USN_MK-46_Mod_5_lightweight_torpedo.jpg

:rock: SUBSIM.

[cobalt]

you're right

[Onkel Neal]

I agree. Seems like we have slowly gathered a collection of people of all political stripes who want to be provacative and stir stuff up. The General Topics forum is intended for Subsim folks to discuss general topics, not mainly politics. And to discuss these topics as friends, not rivals.

The understanding, a gentleman's agreement, has been it is ok to discuss political issues and world events, as long as everyone shows restraint and these topics do not dominate the forum. But over the last year, we've gotten more and more away from that. The more this goes on, the closer I am to making this a non-politics forum.

[Enigma]

Easy fix? Make a "Politics" forum. :o

[PeriscopeDepth]

Easy fix? Make a "Politics" forum. :o

I wouldn't have a problem with that "fix" if people just intelligently discussed politics. But don't think for a second that's going to happen on the interweb. A more aptly named poltical forum for here (or any simulation internet forum that has had a Current Events board) would be the, "Baiting, **** stirring/slinging, pinko lefties vs. fascist righties fight to the death corner". I for the life of me can't figure out why Neal pays the bandwith for people to smear this kind of stuff across his general forum as is. He's a far kinder man than I. I completely agree that SubSim should be a place for SubSim fans to unite, not facilitate divisions within those that play submarine simulations.

PD

[Mush Martin]

Well Hit :up:

[joea]

I agree 100%, I enjoy debating politics...not fighting the verbal equivalent of [insert bloodiest historical battle you can think of here]...but could live without it. The problem is larger than just politics, it's people not listening (or reading) to others. I have had that heppen to me a lot lately with posts and points of mine ignored or misunderstood, on purpose or not.

I still love this site however and think it usually is fantastic.

[1mPHUNit0]

And to discuss these topics as friends, not rivals. I disagree....nazi are nazi
fascist are fascist
criminals are criminals
Who make war for profit
and who support they
Who support criminals states
and who support resistance against them
and so on.
Divided...no respect
But yes, i enjoy debating politics
The problem is larger than
just politics, it's people not listening (or reading) to others I totally agree

[Onkel Neal]

Easy fix? Make a "Politics" forum. :o
I wouldn't have a problem with that "fix" if people just intelligently discussed politics. But don't think for a second that's going to happen on the interweb. A more aptly named poltical forum for here (or any simulation internet forum that has had a Current Events board) would be the, "Baiting, **** stirring/slinging, pinko lefties vs. fascist righties fight to the death corner". I for the life of me can't figure out why Neal pays the bandwith for people to smear this kind of stuff across his general forum as is. He's a far kinder man than I. I completely agree that SubSim should be a place for SubSim fans to unite, not facilitate divisions within those that play submarine simulations.

PD

That sums up my thoughts exactly. I could make a "political" forum, even make it a "sub-forum" and bury it, so to speak, so only those determined to antagonize each other will dwell there. Problem is, after a period of time, we would have the same problem all over again. I would be getting PMs from Joe saying Bill is flaming, or Gus is calling people nazis, etc. and like to said, that's not the reason we pay $600 each month for servers and hosting. I prefer to re-use the feeble solution we've always used, which is when things get out of hand, we collectively agree to chill. Historically, most people in the Subsim forums agree, no kind of forum changes or enforcement is needed. We have people of all kinds here and the few who cannot get along will be asked to take their agendas elsewhere. Let them call Air America or Rush Limbaugh, or post on any of a thousand forums where people daily try to dismember each other. We don't want that atmosphere here.

[ReallyDedPoet]

When you have people from all over the world coming together with different backgrounds, beliefs you are bound to have disagreements, conflict.

There are many times I have seen posts where you say " wtf " , but you have to see the big-picture before judging ( where the person is from, read some earlier posts, context, etc. ) or making a comment. Plus if you don't like it or agree, you can go to another thread or ignore it.

When things have gotten out of hand the Moderators and Neal have done a great job of reeling people back in:yep:

Long live Subsim:up::up:

RDP

[jumpy]

The understanding, a gentleman's agreement, has been it is ok to discuss political issues and world events, as long as everyone shows restraint and these topics do not dominate the forum. But over the last year, we've gotten more and more away from that. The more this goes on, the closer I am to making this a non-politics forum.

Though this is one of a select few fora in which I seem to have taken up permanent residence, I have to say, Neal, it's the only forum where I exercise my prerogative to use the ignore list for those persons who I just cannot be doing with.

Moderating aside, I reckon members here ought to have enough wherewithal to judge for themselves where to draw the line (though this is not always the case) and if they cannot help but get annoyed by an individuals attitude or repeated comments... well, the mighty Ignore List awaits you!
In this manner, General Topics can become a quiet and tranquil place if you let it :yep:

It'd be kind of fun for admins to post who is on who's ignore list and tally up who has the most consistent 'ignorance' heheheh. Then again, perhaps not :smug:

[Skybird]

Here are some pictures to bring you back to Earth:


All I see on those pics is not earth, but water!?

:-?

[waste gate]

Originally Posted by jumpy
the only forum where I exercise my prerogative to use the ignore list for those persons who I just cannot be doing with.

I've always thought this a bad idea. Ignoring or blocking the opinion of others diminishes your understanding of, not only the thread but also the mindset of those with whom you may disagree.

My modus operandi is to not block any view or member of the forum. This does not mean I have to attend every argument to which I am invited.

[fatty]

Here are some pictures to bring you back to Earth:


All I see on those pics is not earth, but water!?

:-?

Tsk, tsk. Please forgive me. :D

[robbo180265]

I totaly agree with every thing that's been said already in this thread(for what it's worth)
I got reeled in to some political threads a while back and found that it wasn't other peoples politics that annoyed me, it was the mud-slinging.

I made a decision there and then to stay away from it all, and just join in the genral - non political threads. I've since found the genral forum to be much more fun.

[SUBMAN1]

Easy fix? Make a "Politics" forum. :o
I wouldn't have a problem with that "fix" if people just intelligently discussed politics. But don't think for a second that's going to happen on the interweb. A more aptly named poltical forum for here (or any simulation internet forum that has had a Current Events board) would be the, "Baiting, **** stirring/slinging, pinko lefties vs. fascist righties fight to the death corner". I for the life of me can't figure out why Neal pays the bandwith for people to smear this kind of stuff across his general forum as is. He's a far kinder man than I. I completely agree that SubSim should be a place for SubSim fans to unite, not facilitate divisions within those that play submarine simulations.

PD
That sums up my thoughts exactly. I could make a "political" forum, even make it a "sub-forum" and bury it, so to speak, so only those determined to antagonize each other will dwell there. Problem is, after a period of time, we would have the same problem all over again. I would be getting PMs from Joe saying Bill is flaming, or Gus is calling people nazis, etc. and like to said, that's not the reason we pay $600 each month for servers and hosting. I prefer to re-use the feeble solution we've always used, which is when things get out of hand, we collectively agree to chill. Historically, most people in the Subsim forums agree, no kind of forum changes or enforcement is needed. We have people of all kinds here and the few who cannot get along will be asked to take their agendas elsewhere. Let them call Air America or Rush Limbaugh, or post on any of a thousand forums where people daily try to dismember each other. We don't want that atmosphere here.

Just make a discalimer - enter at your own risk! :D And state that these kinds of things will generally be ignored!

-S

[STEED]

I think we should take a step back and know when to back off and stop.

May be the moderator's need a colour code system?

For example -

Green - Moderator's are watching this thread closely
Yellow - Moderator's issue first warning but let the thread continual
Orange - Moderator's issue second and final warning
Red - Moderator's close the thread and give there reason why

This is a course just an idea and it's up to Neal and the Moderators at the end of the day.

[Ishmael]

I personally try to never engage in personal attacks against my conservative friends here as I don't hate them. I just consider them misguided. I read most of the links they offer and compare it to what I've read or seen other places as it helps my own personal analysis of the subject. I also try to back up my arguments here with links to the relevant facts as I know them to assist them in their own analyses.

This board is really unique for the convergence of people from all over the world interested in defense technology and political issues from a variety of international perspectives, something I think Uncle Neal can take great pride in.

So I offer the following lyrics as testament that, in a similar situation with my conservative friends, I would do what the singer does. Written by Nick Gravenites,it's an old song called,"I'll Change Your Flat Tire, Merle."

Oh, I'll change your flat tire, Merle.

I wouldn't want your guitar-pickin' fingers covered with oil

You're a redneck I know,

But Merle, you got soul.

So I'll change your flat tire Merle.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm divided politically...

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by jumpy
the only forum where I exercise my prerogative to use the ignore list for those persons who I just cannot be doing with.

I've always thought this a bad idea. Ignoring or blocking the opinion of others diminishes your understanding of, not only the thread but also the mindset of those with whom you may disagree.

My modus operandi is to not block any view or member of the forum. This does not mean I have to attend every argument to which I am invited.
There is some merit in what you say about listening to the other opinion, but at the risk of trotting out a tired old cliché:

I'd rather suffer fools than bigot's, any day.

With that in mind I am forced to conclude that (sometimes) there are fewer fools than bigots here at times. That might sound a bit harsh, but in some topics it is spot on.
Sadly there's only so many times I can listen to the same old twaddle before I make a more permanent judgement regarding an individual or member. It's the same for me in real life (as it were) you get three strikes and then I have no more time for you; Life is too short to spend eking it out over time wasters and the older I get the more I seem to loose patience with loud-mouths and anyone with too heavy a chip on their shoulder. They won't thank you for your time, so why bother?

Don't get me wrong, I don't add people willy-nilly to my ignore list just because they have a different opinion to me, there's more to it than that, especially when the discourse turns to the inevitable personal slight, which round here is pretty much unforgivable if no direct or public apology is forthcoming.
In all my time here I have never felt the need to publically insult or deride another member for their beliefs or understanding, regardless of how the conversation goes. But if others are not prepared to extend the same courtesy from behind the safety of their monitor...

Poking a sly jibe in the spirit of humour is altogether different when a thread diverges in humerous lines, in which case the context should be obvious to all who read it.

On the whole I like it here, but again I must reiterate; the ignore list can make this a peaceful place to be when so desired. :)

[Wxman]

Originally Posted by jumpy
the only forum where I exercise my prerogative to use the ignore list for those persons who I just cannot be doing with.

I've always thought this a bad idea. Ignoring or blocking the opinion of others diminishes your understanding of, not only the thread but also the mindset of those with whom you may disagree.

My modus operandi is to not block any view or member of the forum. This does not mean I have to attend every argument to which I am invited.

What's wrong with sticking one's fingers in their ears, and saying "La la la la la la la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la la la la"?

That sounds like mature adult behavior and somebody with razor sharp debating skills to me. Above all else it is eminently a sign of somebody that reasons with their intellect instead of their emotions; out of sight out of mind. Such a person knows all that they need to, they need not be bothered with trivialities such as details; their mind is made up.

Furthermore, it allows them to coolly and calmly formulate a rational response predicated on facts and logic, rather than firing off rash responses in haste. Not only that, but after the other person has finished talking, the listener can take the fingers out of their ears and continue the debate unfettered without any emotional baggage respecting whatever was said.

Ever talk to somebody that you know isn't listening to and trying to comprehend what is being said, but instead are thinking about what they're going to say next? Usually, but not very often, these people will capitulate to truth, facts and logic only after trying to stymie the argument with fallacies, shouting one down (so as to prevent debte), ad hominem and when that fails they stick their fingers in their ears and say "La la la la la la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la la la". That's when you know you won; 'cause they're pissed and you're not.

[Skybird]

Using the ignore button to block opinions is ignorrant. :nope:

Using the ignore button to block repeated bad manners and repeated personally offending behavior is... good for my blood pressure. :D

I use to block bad manners, not opinions. With just two names at the moment, the list is pretty short.

[baggygreen]

wait... we got an ignore option??? :o





learn somethin new every day
:know: :roll:

[Skybird]

Choose User CP in the menu (left top corner).

In the menu left, the last option.

Listed people will be displayed in your thread list by name and placeholder only. Their text will be supressed.

I would like to see the placeholder and name being supressed altogether.

Don't enter the same name in the ignore and buddy lists the same time. It will crash the server completely and give Neal a hard time to clean the mess on weekends.

[Bertgang]

Fine, now I kow that we have an ignore button, and how to use it.

I'd like to have this function in the professional forum where I spend most of my time, but I doubt that I'm going to use it here.

Each of us has a different feeling with other forum members, and with their favourite topics, but I often had nice surprises reading posts from people I (virtually) like less.

Despite some excess, flames and so on, our general topics is the best place I know for great opinion sharing.

[Jimbuna]

Fine, now I kow that we have an ignore button, and how to use it.

I'd like to have this function in the professional forum where I spend most of my time, but I doubt that I'm going to use it here.

Each of us has a different feeling with other forum members, and with their favourite topics, but I often had nice surprises reading posts from people I (virtually) like less.

Despite some excess, flames and so on, our general topics is the best place I know for great opinion sharing.

Agreed...just so long as it isn't offensive :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

Using the ignore button to block opinions is ignorrant. :nope:

Using the ignore button to block repeated bad manners and repeated personally offending behavior is... good for my blood pressure. :D

I use to block bad manners, not opinions. With just two names at the moment, the list is pretty short.
You mean that you can't see what I write about you? :D :p I knew the sword/gun conversation would get to you eventually! No contest there!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

By the way, who cares about the political divide. So what? Why is everyone harping on it? This is why some people live in some countries, and other people in other countries. If you don't like your political system (You can't please everyone), leave! Simple. The only time it will be a problem is when we have one world government. Then things will get bad. Until then, there is no way to get over the political conversations on this forum. They will always be there, because people have different views than the next guy. So get used to it.

To end this thread - The simple solution is if you don't want to get involed or don't like a topic of a particular conversation, don't click on it and read it. No one is forcing you to read every political thread on this forum! If it upsets you, don't read it. I personally don't read half the threads in the general forum myself.

-S

[August]

Using the ignore button to block opinions is ignorrant. :nope:

Using the ignore button to block repeated bad manners and repeated personally offending behavior is... good for my blood pressure. :D

I use to block bad manners, not opinions. With just two names at the moment, the list is pretty short.
You mean that you can't see what I write about you? :D :p I knew the sword/gun conversation would get to you eventually! No contest there!

-S

No no, it's not you it's me that he has on ignore. Betcha he won't even see this post unless someone quotes it.

[SUBMAN1]

Using the ignore button to block opinions is ignorrant. :nope:

Using the ignore button to block repeated bad manners and repeated personally offending behavior is... good for my blood pressure. :D

I use to block bad manners, not opinions. With just two names at the moment, the list is pretty short.
You mean that you can't see what I write about you? :D :p I knew the sword/gun conversation would get to you eventually! No contest there!

-S
No no, it's not you it's me that he has on ignore. Betcha he won't even see this post unless someone quotes it.
THere I quoted it. Anyway, he can't see mine though since he can't stand the idea that his sword can't hold a candle to a .45. So I am safe! :p So he can't probably see this one either!

[Sailor Steve]

Using the ignore button to block opinions is ignorrant. :nope:

Using the ignore button to block repeated bad manners and repeated personally offending behavior is... good for my blood pressure. :D

I use to block bad manners, not opinions. With just two names at the moment, the list is pretty short.
I'm going to ignore that ignorant comment regarding ignorance.:rotfl:

[waste gate]

I know I'm on his list. He told me as much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
Waste Gate, I have my doubts that you even read some of the postings you feel fit to respond to. that does not hinder you to become offending whenever you feel rethorics would compensate your lack of arguments.

And since this is for the repeated time now, and since I saw you doing this towards others as well, you have the honour to be put on my to-be-ignored list from now on, so better don't waste your time with me anymore.



OK. :D

[Skybird]

You mean that you can't see what I write about you? :D :p I knew the sword/gun conversation would get to you eventually! No contest there!

-S
Is that the grip of my sword that I see sticking out of your back...? :lol:


I'm going to ignore that ignorant comment regarding ignorance.:rotfl:

???? What was that? Did I hear somebody saying something? :)

[Skybird]

No no, it's not you it's me that he has on ignore. Betcha he won't even see this post unless someone quotes it.
You are just unforgiving that I did not stereotype you in that thread back then!

[Camaero]

I like being able to read a vast amount of opinions here. Sure, sometimes I can't help but shake my head in unbelieving disgust at what some of you say:lol: , but I am sure some have done the same for what I have said. Who cares, if everyone thought exactly the same then life would be quite boring.:sunny:

[Takeda Shingen]

This is not about politics. This is about the internet's peculiar effect of making people who are normally mature, responsible adults into ranting, squabbling children. The problem is not the subject matter. Rather, it is the candor of the writer. Moderators do not lock threads due to viewpoints, with software piracy being the only exception. They are locked because of forum conduct.

Regarding a politicl subforum: This does not remove the problems related to any topical speech. It only moves the topic and forces moderators, namely me, to watch multiple forums, rather than having it all in one location. As such, I am strongly opposed to such a division of topic.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm going to ignore that ignorant comment regarding ignorance.:rotfl:

???? What was that? Did I hear somebody saying something? :)
I can't read anything you write because I've got my eyes closed.


Makes it a little hard to know what else is going on...

[Skybird]

I'm going to ignore that ignorant comment regarding ignorance.:rotfl:

???? What was that? Did I hear somebody saying something? :)
I can't read anything you write because I've got my eyes closed.


Makes it a little hard to know what else is going on...
This counter-counter-reply is loosing me... :lol: Youre sure we even talked about the same thing? :rotfl:

[P_Funk]

I don't have a problem really with the political divide here. I've noticed that in the outside world I mostly meet people who think much like I do (generally speaking), those that disagree with me (again generally), and then there are the apathetic majority that don't seem to care what we all type for hours about. Here there are frequent clashes of ideology that are just inherent with all human expression.

However my real complaint is that there are certain members here that occupy rather extreme positions or at least outspoken ones that rather than make honest and polite conversation, instead snipe at those who's views they disagree with. Often the answer to a lengthy reply is a brief quip that seeks to belittle the man's ideas without even considering the substance of them. That is why I don't often post here. I really don't have the energy to pursue a discussion where I have to put up with people who argue against my ideas and the ideas of others with dismissive arrogant quips.

It isn't ideology or belief that I struggle with. I have some very rewarding discussions with friends who have polar opposite views. Its the amazing immaturity however that I see in some very aged and allegedly learned individuals that can't spare the courtesie that they would show any man in real life. It is regreatable, since I don't see how you can really change that. It is the disdain between sides that is really acidic; the substitution of rational logical thought for venom that makes me mostly leave this place be.

EDIT. Oh and for a brilliant satire of the differences between the interet and reality check out this Red vs Blue "Public Service Announcement". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv9NUPbvnTk
The bit about political discussion is most a propos.

[GlobalExplorer]

.. Until then, there is no way to get over the political conversations on this forum. They will always be there, because people have different views than the next guy. So get used to it.

To end this thread - The simple solution is if you don't want to get involed or don't like a topic of a particular conversation, don't click on it and read it. No one is forcing you to read every political thread on this forum! If it upsets you, don't read it. I personally don't read half the threads in the general forum myself.
-S

Hey, I know I don't agree with some of your (political) views, but I agree with you on that.

I have yet to read any argument in this thread that will make the rift dissappear, so I prefer people discuss it out. Of course it is upsetting sometimes, and sometimes it's really hard to listen to zealots, but on the other hand I sometimes learn things I didn't know before.

That is important because people tend to change their mind about a topic the more they are in touch with it. Like everytime I go to a new country there comes a time when I think "Ah, now I understand what all the fuzz is about ..". Which is to say that, like travelling, contact with opposing views has the potential to broaden the mind.

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, still the hard thing is to find where the middle is.

[The Avon Lady]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor.

That'll teach 'em!

Um.....

No......

Wait!!!!

Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!

:damn:

[1mPHUNit0]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor.
Very happy of this

[Drebbel]

Easy fix? Make a "Politics" forum. :o

That was also proposed about a year ago. But majority said NO, probably because nobody would visit that forum :p IIRC the proposal was to make a general forum, and a general navy forum.

[joea]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor. Very happy of this

Calm down you two. :nope:

[The Avon Lady]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor. Very happy of this
Calm down you two. :nope:
I was just having fun, like others saying they close their eyes and plug their ears. Cool as a cucumber here and my monitor's actually spottless! :yep:

[joea]

I was just having fun, like others saying they close their eyes and plug their ears. Cool as a cucumber here and my monitor's actually spottless! :yep:

Ok that's cool I am sure your whole computer desk is spotless and organised as well, unlike others. *ahem* :oops:

[Dowly]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor. Very happy of this

So, you are doing it on purpose?

[Jimbuna]

@Dowly
Don't feed the trolls matey :arrgh!:

[Dowly]

@Dowly
Don't feed the trolls matey :arrgh!:

They must be hungry by now...

[Jimbuna]

@Dowly
Don't feed the trolls matey :arrgh!:

They must be hungry by now...

Bloody starvin if you ask me ;)

[1mPHUNit0]

So, you are doing it on purpose? I have burned that sionist flag doing it on purpose.
The only purpose,when you burn flags
And i'm very happy of this

Dear Jmbruna
what you don't understand it's troll
and i think there are lot of thing that you call troll

[The Munster]

I looked at some of the comments on this thread and I was so disgusted that I spat at them on my monitor. Very happy of this
Calm down you two. :nope:
I was just having fun, like others saying they close their eyes and plug their ears. Cool as a cucumber here and my monitor's actually spottless! :yep:

I think you mean 'spittleless' :rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

Do not feed the trolls.

Topic closed.