How Modern Liberals Think

[Yahoshua]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

[Wxman]

Who Am I? (http://conservativeimage.com/who_am_i.htm)

I don’t believe in the concept of evil,

But I think the Bush administration is evil.

I care more about getting my social security and Medicare

Than I care about genocidal dictators.

I weep for whales and dying animals,

But I am unconvinced of the goodness and global necessity of freedom;

even after mass graves are discovered.

I want world peace,

But I’m not willing to export freedom.

Despite the success of the war against terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq;

Despite the success of the tax cuts and the rebounding economy,

I will continue to undermine the Bush Administration.

I still believe in moral relativism,

Even after 9/11.

I care more about what the rest of the world thinks of America

Than I do about the United States' national security.

I will say nothing, do nothing, and be nothing

In the name of tolerance

And in order to avoid serious confrontation.

I support troops

Who are following orders I do not agree with.

I think all fighting is wrong,

Even when its fighting to stop bad guys.

I care more about the mental and emotional scarring of a few Iraqi rebels

Than I do about the rape of Jessica Walker Lynch

Or the murder, burning, and sexual mutilation of four American civilians by Iraqis.

I care more about the mistreatment of a few Iraqi rebels

Than the worse atrocities John Kerry has admitted to committing.

I value all life,

Even the lives of villains.

I don't think all Islam is bad because what a few bad Muslims did on 9/11,

But I do think all of the U.S. Military is bad because of a few misbehaving reservists.

I love all humanity,

But I hate people in general.

I believe in democracy,

But I'm afraid of voters.

I want more jobs,

But I hate capitalism.

I'm for multinationalism,

But I'm against outsourcing American jobs.

I celebrate Cinco de Mayo,

But I hate Columbus Day.

I think everybody should be educated about Islam,

But whenever somebody mentions Christianity I gag.

I want to save whales and protect the environment,

But I support a woman’s right to kill her babies.

I think having a high I.Q. and an appreciation of art

Makes me morally wise.

I question authority,

And I can’t keep a job.

I question reality,

And I struggle with depression and suicide.

I am an adult,

But I have the world view of a 14 year old girl.

I am bulging with morality

In all the wrong places.

I am the liberal mind.

[cobalt]

A couple of quotes which made me laugh out loud before I shut this off, "How could you live in the least imperialist power in history and see us the ultimate in imperialism". And "the democrats are wrong on every issue"

Some people are such bigots.


I am an adult,

But I have the world view of a 14 year old girl.

I am bulging with morality

In all the wrong places.

I am the liberal mind.

Incase you don't notice, you're on a public message board and other peoples politcal views are tolerated (sometimes...actually, no they're not, Nvm)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Threads like this are old and tired, lets get on with it:yep:

[Enigma]

Snooooozzzzzee.....

[Sea Demon]

Very true, Wxman. This piece ultimately details everything liberals believe, but at the same time, everything they want you to think they believe. The biggest one for me is they believe they're patriotic, and are desperate for you to believe it as well, yet they do everything they can to undermine their own nation during a time of war.

[Enigma]

:lol: Cuckoo!

:roll:

[bookworm_020]

Next topic please!!

[Sea Demon]

:lol: Cuckoo!

:roll:

Hmmm. Just how are Liberals supporting their nation during this time of war? By supporting nutty conspiracy theories that say 9/11 was an inside job? By openly supporting the end of the war by advocating pulling of the funding? By calling the CINC of our military "Hitler"? By making false claims regarding the reasonings for the war? By repeatedly telling us how this war is "unwinnable" despite our military still fighting for victory (propaganda victory for the enemy here)? And so on...

But I'm sure most Liberals have redefined the word "patriotism" to fit their anti-military, anti-American points of view. Some of us still remember what the words loyalty, honor, and patriotism mean. Some of us still remember what treason, and traitor mean also. Just because liberals want to change the meanings of words to fit their views, doesn't mean they can. If you want to be called patriotic, you have to act the part. ;)

[Enigma]

I think this is exactly he type of thread NEal is talking about in the thread about the possible ban on political discussions here. Nothing but partisna hackery and hate mongering. "The other side disagree's, therefeore are unpatriotic." Complete drivel.

Just how are Liberals supporting their nation during this time of war? By supporting nutty conspiracy theories that say 9/11 was an inside job? By openly supporting the end of the war by advocating pulling of the funding? By calling the CINC of our military "Hitler"? By making false claims regarding the reasonings for the war? By repeatedly telling us how this war is "unwinnable" despite our military still fighting for victory (propaganda victory for the enemy here)? And so on...

If that's your idea of how the average liberal is approaching the problems we face, it just goes to show that you really are very uneducated about just who you are talking about. And, again, it's a complete snooze. I'm starting to think this is all the hard liners have left, being that their flagship administration is nothing but a collage of failure and scandal. Nothing left to do but attack the other party. Well, it's a fight you are losing, as you learned in November. You can call people who oppose your views whatever you want, but it's those very people who voted in November and sent your tough guy, uncompromising, hard line, "with us or against us" asses out of office, and will do so again in '08.

The most unpatriotic thing one can do is sit around telling those who disagree with you that they are unpatriotic. It's also nothing short of a dead dog's trick at this point, one in which, I admit, the republicans play well.

I thinj your political views are crazy. But I dont think you do not love your country, and I dont think you arent a patriot, and I dont choose to dislike you personally for it. I guess thats the difference between you and me.

[bradclark1]

Enigma about said it all. I don't even have to add anything.

[3Jane]

I hate to be a one beat drum over this, but lets dump the 'general topics' part of the forum completely.

[GlobalExplorer]

Yes, wipe the problems under the carpet and everything will be fine ..

Why are Americans so opposed to discussing the serious, controversial issues like religion, politics etc. ??

If we were only talking about nice things, would that make the rift between left and right dissappear?

Even if somebody stands on a extreme side, if he posts his extreme views and provokes it could still mean he will learn just that little bit about the other side. As long as an opinion is provocative but not insulting, what is the problem?

[TteFAboB]

Why are Americans so opposed to discussing the serious, controversial issues like religion, politics etc. ??

Because they know that they're wrong, but since it's from their illusions that they draw their identity from, shattering these illusions is considered as a personal attack, which it really is if their "person" is nothing but fantasies in a bubble. You're not denying a mistake, you're negating their existence.

[August]

Why are Americans so opposed to discussing the serious, controversial issues like religion, politics etc. ??
Because they know that they're wrong, but since it's from their illusions that they draw their identity from, shattering these illusions is considered as a personal attack, which it really is if their "person" is nothing but fantasies in a bubble. You're not denying a mistake, you're negating their existence.

Yeah that's it. Good thing we have you foreigners to tell us how we should think...

[bradclark1]

Why are Americans so opposed to discussing the serious, controversial issues like religion, politics etc. ??

Where on earth did you get that assumption from? Not from here. Politics and religion are about the top two topics on this board. Granted there are a few of us (about 4 ) that can't hang and go into auto but the other three of us will openly discuss the issues. :lol:
If it's just a USA bashing thread then...........:stare:

[cobalt]

How modern conservatists think.
























(notice the empty space?)

[ASWnut101]

How modern conservatists think.
























(notice the empty space?)



Some people are such bigots.




Real nice. Couldn't have said it better my self.:roll:

[waste gate]

How modern conservatists think.
























(notice the empty space?)

Clever. But it is that under-estimation which is liberal's greatest enemy and conservative's greatest strength.

[Enigma]

:lol: What are you, yoda? ;)

I think you'll find it's the left who have been under-estimated. Hence, again, the election? The approval ratings? The lack of a viable candiadate for '08 from the right? (if Guliani is your saviour, you need savin')

If anything, the right is learning that it cant just spend an entire 8 years rubber stamping bad policy as if the American people wont notice, and believe me, the day before the Nov elections, they thought they could. Even Bush called it a "Thumping". Again, I can only assume that the endless attacks on liberals from the right is based on nothing more than the above facts, which ultimatly make your views those of a minority in this country that has been kicked out of office, and will continue to be kicked out of office come '08. There isnt exactly a long and distinguished list of accomplishments from this administration and the Republican congress. When you lack ammunition , you resort to blanket insulting statements about the entire party that disagrees with you. But hey, it's your time to waste(gate).

[SUBMAN1]

Some people are such bigots.

Incase you don't notice, you're on a public message board and other peoples politcal views are tolerated (sometimes...actually, no they're not, Nvm)


I think what is trying to be described above is that the liberal mind seems to want to have the perfect world. That is its biggest crutch too, since the perfect world is an impossibility to achieve in an imperfect world. So the 14 year old mind sort of applies I would think since it fails to deal with the reality of an adult mind. Not trying to get you upset here, but I am typing this as I try to understand the author and understand how he/she comes to the conclusions presented.

-S

[waste gate]

:lol: What are you, yoda? ;)

I think you'll find it's the left who have been under-estimated. Hence, again, the election? The approval ratings? The lack of a viable candiadate for '08 from the right? (if Guliani is your saviour, you need savin')

If anything, the right is learning that it cant just spend an entire 8 years rubber stamping bad policy as if the American people wont notice, and believe me, the day before the Nov elections, they thought they could. Even Bush called it a "Thumping". Again, I can only assume that the endless attacks on liberals from the right is based on nothing more than the above facts, which ultimatly make your views those of a minority in this country that has been kicked out of office, and will continue to be kicked out of office come '08. There isnt exactly a long and distinguished list of accomplishments from this administration and the Republican congress. When you lack ammunition , you resort to blanket insulting statements about the entire party that disagrees with you. But hey, it's your time to waste(gate).

You are doning the same thing you are accusing me of Enigma.


(if Guliani is your saviour, you need savin')


I have only one Savior and that man is not him. Beyond that the mayor is a Republican but hardly a conservative. I made up my mind concerning the good mayor long ago.

[Enigma]

You are doning the same thing you are accusing me of Enigma.

Wheres the part where I made generalized insulting statements toward an entire political party and the entire right minded population? I stated a few facts. (election results, mood swing of the poulation, poor performance and low approval ratings.) You questioned the patriotism of every liberal American, accused all liberals of promoting 9/11 as an inside job, and calling the President Hitler.

I'm doing the same thing im accusing you of? Not even close. But I appreciate you allowing me to point that out, as it clearly solidifies my point here.

**EDIT: My apologies, it was Sea Demon who made those accusations. It toally got you two confused....

[Enigma]

(if Guliani is your saviour, you need savin')

I have only one Savior and that man is not him. Beyond that the mayor is a Republican but hardly a conservative. I made up my mind concerning the good mayor long ago.

...hence the "If". ;)

[waste gate]

You are doning the same thing you are accusing me of Enigma.

Wheres the part where I made generalized insulting statements toward an entire political party and the entire right minded population? I stated a few facts. (election results, mood swing of the poulation, poor performance and low approval ratings.) You questioned the patriotism of every liberal American, accused all liberals of promoting 9/11 as an inside job, and calling the President Hitler.

I'm doing the same thing im accusing you of? Not even close. But I appreciate you allowing me to point that out, as it clearly solidifies my point here.

**EDIT: My apologies, it was Sea Demon who made those accusations. It toally got you two confused....

Then I count you for the one of the stand up guys.

[cobalt]

Real nice. Couldn't have said it better my self.:roll:

fight fire with fire?

[Yahoshua]

Please play nice kids, I posted the video to inspire conscientous debate. Not mud-slinging.

As far as I can see, Subman seems to be the only one catching onto the point of this thread.

[Sea Demon]

I think you'll find it's the left who have been under-estimated. Hence, again, the election?

The left had to resort to more conservative candidates (ala Jim Webb) to win the small majority they now have. They had to find people who agree with guys like me regarding 2nd amendment issues and such to win. Not to mention they fired up their own leeft-wing base by promising things they cannot deliver, and will not deliver. In fact, the tiny Democrat majority is impotent (fortunately).

In regards to the other stuff, I just say let your own conscious be your guide. When you root for a party that openly seems hostile to our own military, and our own war effort, I wonder how you can do that in good faith. What.........for political opportunities? Are you that afraid of tax-cuts? Do you HATE one man (GW Bush) so much as to want failure for your own country? (Not you in general, but many liberals for sure). I am not calling you unpatriotic. But the Democratic party establishment certainly is. And I never let liberals get away with redefining terms such as "patriotism" to support their weird agendas. I'm sure you think "Abortion on demand" is pro-child and pro-family......right? :roll: I've heard that one many times before, and it's just as stupid as can be.

[Enigma]

Ehh, what can I say. I completely disagree with you. The redefining of patriotism came straight from the mouth's of this administration and those who choose to follow the party line talking points.

Regardless of the who's, why's and whats, ...The Dems now run congress. Why? Because by and large, this country thinks that the leadership and execution of the Iraq war was, at best, pathetic. They will win the white house in '08 for those very same reasons. (Katrina, in my humble opinion, also had a huge impact on the amount of defections to the apparently unpatriotic hating america side)

As far as impotence, we have a President prepared to sit on his thumbs and and band aid this disaster in Iraq for the next administration to handle it. We have a lame duck, impotent administration.

Hating Bush (Which I do not) does NOT equal wanting the country to fail.

Wanting to prevent the unneccesary deaths of American troops, and proposing alternate plans, and a way OUt of iraq, (Something the right has completely failed to do in any length or measure) Does not make the party hostile to the military.

The opposition of the current administrations plans and agendas with regard to Iraq, especially when such plans and agendas have failed miserably, does not constitute a lack of patriotism. In fact, I think it constitutes quite the opposite.

These are the simple arguments that make me hit the wall when discussing politics with someone of these opinions. for you, there is no debate. The right is right, and the left is unpatriotic and hates America. If only I could manage to illustrate how utterly absurd an argument that is, I would. But, I think we all know where the other stands, and I dont see anyone coming around on this soon.

Something I feel you fail to realize, is that because people think Bush et al era incompetent, because people feel Americans die without reason in a war that is essentially a global cluster ****, because people feel strongly about America, what it stands for, what its about and where it should be, a large sector of the population wants to get the hell out of there. Why? They love America. They are patriots, and they feel that Bush has not done us, or our military the justice they deserve, as Americans.

[Enigma]

....And I think my sig, by Mr Twain, says it all, really.

[waste gate]

Originally Posted by Enigma
As far as impotence, we have a President prepared to sit on his thumbs and and band aid this disaster in Iraq for the next administration to handle it. We have a lame duck, impotent administration.

Hating Bush (Which I do not) does NOT equal wanting the country to fail.

Wanting to prevent the unneccesary deaths of American troops, and proposing alternate plans, and a way OUt of iraq, (Something the right has completely failed to do in any length or measure) Does not make the party hostile to the military.

The opposition of the current administrations plans and agendas with regard to Iraq, especially when such plans and agendas have failed miserably, does not constitute a lack of patriotism. In fact, I think it constitutes quite the opposite.


Interesting argument, and if I were to admit the 'impotence' of the Bush administration and the 'Dems now run congress. Why? Because by and large, this country thinks that the leadership and execution of the Iraq war was, at best, pathetic'. Please show me where the Dems have made any change.

[Enigma]

The Dems still dont have the White House, and bush still has a Veto. C'mon, you knew the answer to that. Lets not waste each others time.

By the way, I m certainly not saying that the dems will roll in in '08 and fix the worlds problems. If you knew me better, you would know that my complaints about the left are almost as frequent as my complaints about the right. I just happen to think that reviewing this failued policy, adjusting, not escelating a war, and focusing on bringing home Americans who are being killed frequently, and for no good reason, is a far better policy than "lets throw some more gas on the fire and see how it goes." This administration has ignorantly, and arrogantly steadfast on their failed polict until they got a wake up call on election day. Now, the answer is sending 20k more troops. Oh, and 20k more after that. and anohter 20k to support that 40k. There is no end in sight. Having an end in sight is a better policy.

[Wxman]

How is that germane to the issue of how liberals think? Is the overarching "us" verses "them" issue quantified on a global scale of Democrats vs. Republicans? What bearing does the American political scene have with respect to the macrocosm of liberal vs.conservative ideology? Because it seems to me that somehow what is getting consfued into this issue is America vs. the rest of the world, as if America is "conservative" and the rest of the world is "liberal". There is no nationality to "liberal".

I mean c'mon here. I have no desire to get into a pissing match concerning nationality. There are no doubt conservatives in the U.K., and in Germany, and even in France. What's going on in France right now, eh? What's happening in the Netherlands, in Denmark, Sweden, and in Britain, etc. Are these issues because of the failings of Republican or Democrat policies? Get real here.

[waste gate]

The Dems still dont have the White House, and bush still has a Veto. C'mon, you knew the answer to that. Lets not waste each others time.

By the way, I m certainly not saying that the dems will roll in in '08 and fix the worlds problems. If you knew me better, you would know that my complaints about the left are almost as frequent as my complaints about the right. I just happen to think that reviewing this failued policy, adjusting, not escelating a war, and focusing on bringing home Americans who are being killed frequently, and for no good reason, is a far better policy than "lets throw some more gas on the fire and see how it goes." This administration has ignorantly, and arrogantly steadfast on their failed polict until they got a wake up call on election day. Now, the answer is sending 20k more troops. Oh, and 20k more after that. and anohter 20k to support that 40k. There is no end in sight. Having an end in sight is a better policy.

So what you are saying is that congress is as impotent as GWB.

[Enigma]

Hmm. Not sure what you mean there, WXman. My entering this conversation was more to point out what I feel our completely unhelpful, and at this point tiresome accusations from the right, who, by my bearing have no business criticizing any political party, given the rash of scandal, failure, and lack of respect these guys have in this country, and yes, the world. To me its not about Dems and Pubs, it's about competent and dangerously incompetent. It's relevent to this conversation because for the past year or more, all ive been hearing from the right is that the left hates America, is unpatriotic, etc, etc....and while the right is busy doing that, the war still exists, and Americans still die. Its counter-productive. As Americans, in my opinion, we should be hoping for solutions and expecting a higher standard from our government, regardless of political affiliation.

But, maybe I just dont get your point. Wouldnt be the first time I didnt understand someones point here. :shifty:

[Psycluded]

The Dems still dont have the White House, and bush still has a Veto. C'mon, you knew the answer to that. Lets not waste each others time.

By the way, I m certainly not saying that the dems will roll in in '08 and fix the worlds problems. If you knew me better, you would know that my complaints about the left are almost as frequent as my complaints about the right. I just happen to think that reviewing this failued policy, adjusting, not escelating a war, and focusing on bringing home Americans who are being killed frequently, and for no good reason, is a far better policy than "lets throw some more gas on the fire and see how it goes." This administration has ignorantly, and arrogantly steadfast on their failed polict until they got a wake up call on election day. Now, the answer is sending 20k more troops. Oh, and 20k more after that. and anohter 20k to support that 40k. There is no end in sight. Having an end in sight is a better policy.
So what you are saying is that congress is as impotent as GWB.

There you go bringing logic into it.

[waste gate]

The Dems still dont have the White House, and bush still has a Veto. C'mon, you knew the answer to that. Lets not waste each others time.

By the way, I m certainly not saying that the dems will roll in in '08 and fix the worlds problems. If you knew me better, you would know that my complaints about the left are almost as frequent as my complaints about the right. I just happen to think that reviewing this failued policy, adjusting, not escelating a war, and focusing on bringing home Americans who are being killed frequently, and for no good reason, is a far better policy than "lets throw some more gas on the fire and see how it goes." This administration has ignorantly, and arrogantly steadfast on their failed polict until they got a wake up call on election day. Now, the answer is sending 20k more troops. Oh, and 20k more after that. and anohter 20k to support that 40k. There is no end in sight. Having an end in sight is a better policy.
So what you are saying is that congress is as impotent as GWB.

There you go bringing logic into it.

Try to forgive me.

[Enigma]

Im saying congress is actually discussing it. Im saying they actually have alternate ideas. That is, at bare minimum, a start. At least its a debatable issue now, and not a rubber stamping from the republican congress. At least people are being held to account. The GWB admin was quite happy to "stay the course". Americans have spoken, and decided that is an unacceptable course for the country. The democrats lack in many areas, but one thing is for sure, they are well on their way to taking back the white house, and then I will expect them to back up every viable solution they offer. If or when they do not, I will be the first to call them on it.

Well, maybe the 2nd, if you are still around my friend. ;)

[Psycluded]

The democrats lack in many areas, but one thing is for sure, they are well on their way to taking back the white house, and then I will expect them to back up every viable solution they offer. If or when they do not, I will be the first to call them on it.

... The Dems have a viable candidate? Where? Oh, you mean Barack Obama. We'll see. I don't know if he has the political "guns" to get past Hillary in the primaries, but if he does, there just might be a Democrat in the white house come January '09. God help the Republicans if Joe Lieberman manages the nomination. :yep:

[waste gate]

Im saying congress is actually discussing it. Im saying they actually have alternate ideas. That is, at bare minimum, a start. At least its a debatable issue now, and not a rubber stamping from the republican congress. At least people are being held to account. The GWB admin was quite happy to "stay the course". Americans have spoken, and decided that is an unacceptable course for the country. The democrats lack in many areas, but one thing is for sure, they are well on their way to taking back the white house, and then I will expect them to back up every viable solution they offer. If or when they do not, I will be the first to call them on it.

Well, maybe the 2nd, if you are still around my friend. ;)

I'm sure the discussion has not been limited to the last three months. In 2002 congress discussed it, voted on it, and overwhelmingly supported action against Iraq. The current situation as it pertains to the stalemate between the executive and legislative branches of government is a good thing. Less government, even a lifeless, stagnent gov't is good for all citizens.

[Enigma]

I'm sure the discussion has not been limited to the last three months. In 2002 congress discussed it, voted on it, and overwhelmingly supported action against Iraq.

Sure, with a rubber stamping republican congress. They never saw anything signed by Dubya that they didnt like.

No doubt, a whole bunch of Democrats are looking pretty stupid for signing off on this thing, too. I's love to be able to see the information they saw in making this decision. Of course, I never will. So, really, I cant say why. I know that when I was told of WMD's, immediate threats, etc, etc, I supported a war too. I was duped, lied to, and abused as an American interested in protecting America. The Dems in congress at the time dont have that excuse.

It's along the smae lines as the Dems who are all of a sudden up in arms over the patriot act having a little clause in it about the DOJ being able to fire prosectors willy nilly. Had they read the damn thing before signing off on it, they would have known it was there. :damn:

[Enigma]

...And if anything, Bush has proven that discussion means zero as long as he is President. He evn set up his own little commitee of his Dads pal's to take a look at it, and he barely took any advice from them either. We could have been discussing this for 10 bloody years. As long as Bush chooses to "Stay the course" in a failed policy, well, we know how thats going.

But we are getting way off topic here. Lets get back to how liberals eat the brains of retarded children.

[Sea Demon]

Ehh, what can I say. I completely disagree with you. The redefining of patriotism came straight from the mouth's of this administration and those who choose to follow the party line talking points.

Regardless of the who's, why's and whats, ...The Dems now run congress. Why? Because by and large, this country thinks that the leadership and execution of the Iraq war was, at best, pathetic.

Something I feel you fail to realize, is that because people think Bush et al era incompetent, because people feel Americans die without reason in a war that is essentially a global cluster ****, because people feel strongly about America, what it stands for, what its about and where it should be, a large sector of the population wants to get the hell out of there. Why? They love America. They are patriots, and they feel that Bush has not done us, or our military the justice they deserve, as Americans.

Well, I'm kind of a straight shooter. I believe if you want to be considered something, you have to act like it. We may disagree, I'll give that to you. And I do agree with one thing that you say. Bush is absolutely sitting on his hands, and is not doing what is necessary to effectively win the war. He should absolutely ignore the left, ignore the UN, ignore the European socialists, and put everything we have into anihilating the enemy in Iraq. Bush seems afraid of what the disgusting lefties in the media would say about going at it like Chester Nimitz gave it to the Japanese.

And no. I don't believe that Democrats want us to win the war by and large. If they did, they wouldn't act the way they do, and say the things they do about it. While we have troops on the ground they wouldn't say that it is an "unwinnable" war. They wouldn't pound our military over Abu Ghraib, yet refuse to see the brutality of the the beheadings dished out by the enemy. They wouldn't allow their Senator Dick Durbin (D) to compare our troops to nazis. They wouldn't allow their Democratic congressmen to discuss pulling finding while our people are in harms way. They wouldn't overblow current war statistics like the amount who have died so far. 3,400 or so in the last few years is really a low casualty rate. Yet Democrats act as though our military is being slaughtered over there. BTW, did you know that we lost 1,000 US Marines at Tarawa in 3 days? With over 2,000 injured? If today's Democratic congress was in power then, I wonder if they would have considered the Pacific War a quagmire. I wonder if they would have thought that it was a needless invasion of a small, irrelevant island. Yep, I'm a straight shooter. Feel free to disagree. I actually think you are a great guy Enigma. I've traded a couple of PM's with you in the past. I don't see you as a looney lefty, like some others I've talked to here in the past. I refuse to get into a heated discussion with you. But we absolutely can agree to disagree.

[Wxman]

To Enigma:

I acknowledge what you're saying. However, any of that, while not wholly irrelevant, is immaterial to the specific topic "How Modern Liberals Think".

What seems quite palpable is a sense of outrage at the perceived aspersions promulgated by the speaker in the video, and by the author's works cited in the second post. Responses that followed varied from assertion to assertation.

The content of the first two posts stand or fall on their own merit. But they do so qualitatively. Refutation of either needs to absolutely be predicated upon either the foundational presumptions, premesis or inferences made respecting any conclusions made. One can't just watch the first two, three or even five minutes of the video and then react to cherry-picked "hot-button" phrases. The speaker in the video supports all the claims that were made at the onset explicitely in his subsequent dialogue. Although the speakers statements, and the author of the material cited in post #2 may be are assertions, they are nevertheless not assertations. If the shoe fits? Sometimes the truth hurts?

Presently I'm going to ignore the bickering about Democrat & Republican politics, issues specific to the American political system, and the pro and con's pertaining to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan as it applies specifically to the war against terror (in that they're not specifically pertainant to the issue of "How Modern Liberals Think"). I am going to, however, specifically address one of Cobalt's salient assertations concerning how modern conservatives think. Let the chips fall where they may. You can "accuse" me of all the following and I wouldn't give a rat's ass; they'd all be true (and I relish in the "accusations"). Apparently the spade is offended by being called a spade. Homer said to Cicero one day as he was debunking Aristotle and Socrates: "That GD stinky flower is still a GD rose, no matter what you call the damned thing, eh?" Gilgamesh nodded and said, "Hey, you bogarting that bong, or what?"

Conservatives believe that their God-given liberty and freedoms are not negotiable and are inalienable. Neither are they subject to interpretation nor revision. Conservatives are pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, and in America pro-Constitution and pro-Bill of Rights (in as far as the documents mean, imply and intimate specifically as written, and that the premise that they are living, fluid and open to interpretation is anathema). The conservative believes in free-speech, in as far as being a means to criticize government and not a right to spew forth every foul, obscene, and vile garbage-drivel that a reprobate mind can dream up, and that gun-rights stem from a God-given right to self-defense, as force often is necessary to back up the freedom of speech (and also as a strong moral check against the powers that be, in as much as the right of the people to overthrow tyrannical rulers should be unabridged). They aggressively defend God-given (and first amendment guaranteed) rights to free speech, free press, free religion, and freedom of association, as well as our constitutional right to control the use and content of personal private property. They are pro-limited government, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and in America above all else: pro-America. Conservatives there view it, despite its shortcomings, flaws, and at times ugliness as being the last-best-place to live; conservatives, champions of freedom, and the oppressed, repressed and recessed the world-over see view its institutions and liberty with envy.

All forms of liberalism, socialism, fascism, pacifism, totalitarianism, anarchism, government enforced atheism, abortionism, feminism, homosexualism, racism, wacko environmentalism, judicial activism, etc. are denounced and anathema. A fundamental tenet that the conservative adheres to is that of solidarity of the family. That is that families are nuclear, with a father and a mother, the children's well-being the sole consideration of both parents, that their is a clear division between the sexes, and that children are to be subserient and respectful of their elders. A division between sexes does not intimate superiority of one over the other, but that they are different; each having qualities best suited for their role in life. The provider and authority role is not better than the nuturer or homemaker's role, are not mutually exclusive and depend on each other synergistically for the benefit of one's offspring and future generations.

Neither the United Nations, nor any other world government body may attempt to impose its will or rule over any sovereign nation and sovereign people. The conservative believe in defending of national borders, and constitution and national sovereignty. Despite the wailing of liberal trolls and other doom & gloom naysayers to the contrary, no great compelling need exists for allowing them to promote their repugnant and obnoxious propaganda. The conservative has no real interest engaging in debating the pro verses con of liberal ideals, but defending the principles of conservatism. Conservatives are inherently activists dedicated to defending their rights, defending the constitution, and defending their republic and the traditional American way of life.

The conservative believes in self-determination of the self-made man, self-reliance, perserverence and tenacity in the face of adversity, commaraderie and good-will among peers. It is believed that the fruits of the sweat off of the brow of a man should be enjoyed either selfishly or as altruistically desired by those who labored. They despise all forms of legal plunder, that without governmental legislation would otherwise legally be considered theft, so as to either bestow largess, and/or finance programs diametrically oppossed to one's ideology, political philosophies, or religious tenets other than what are specifically enumerated in the Constitution. The United States of America is not a democracy. It is a democratically elected representative constitutionally limited-republic.

To this end conservatives stand upon the bedrock of truth as can be found in facts and logic, these trumping liberal emotionalism, hand-wringing feel-good, pie-in-the sky utopian idealism every single time. The tenets of such taken to their logical conclusion are either outright farcical on their face, or so contradictory with other tenets of liberalism so as to not just be the height of folly but the epitome of absurdity. The conservative absolutely understands that in rebutal to this, liberalism shrieks with hostility and ad hominem. According to liberalism, all ideas are of equal merit, except for the concept of absolutes and conservative ideals. It is on this basis that liberalism is not merely morally, but intellectually bankrupt, in that their tolerance for all ideas must embrace the exclusivity of conservatism equally (lest they be considered intellectually dishonest or disengenuous). Of course, the logical conclusion to liberal inclusion of conservative exclusivity is the exclusion of most all liberal philosophies.

I will not engage the debate of the pro's and con's of liberalism, but I'll defend conservative libertarian freedoms tooth and nail. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck and I'll unabashedly call it such. And if the duck is offended being called a duck, too bad. You can be offended at me for my thinking the way I do for all I care, you can heap derision upon me, call me names, etc. I frankly don't give a damn. However, and that notwithstanding, I'll still call you a fool for being a fool, and fight any and all policy implemenations of what I perceive to be sheer lunacy tooth and nail. That being said, I live in a world of men and woman. I believe that's a fine arrangement, that is: a world having girls in it. That being said, I live in a country that has conservatives and liberals in it. More specifically a country with both Republicans and Democrats. I believe that's just as fine of an arrangement. Frankly I don't even want to think about the alternatives, and contemplating them scares me immensely. Good cop and bad cop. Mom and Dad. Hey, everybody knows how the play goes, right? Who do you go to when you want something? Who do you appeal to when your butt is about to get spanked. Imagine a world with only Dad's in it? Imagine a world with only Mom's (or only either good or bad cops). The horror, the horror.

Succintly put, the liberal view is that government is the solution to our problems and as such more and greater government involvement in our lives is needed. What is needed is a government that acts as Mom or nanny that always is there to protect the people from harm (especially to prevent the people from harming themselves). The liberal mentality is that government is this benign and benevolant entity that can be trusted with the very fundamental issues of personal liberties, life and happiness. Because if the government tells you its for you own good, then by God it will be and you better be happy in your misery. I only have one nagging question. When in the history of man has government ever proven itself to be this warm & fuzzy thing that actually is looking out for your own interests rather than its own? Cite one occurance in all of history where that governement actually successfully lived up to the ideals proselytized.

[bradclark1]

I wouldn't waste your time on them Enigma. They say the same thing over and over again regardless of the facts shoved in their face. The people have spoken and thats all that matters. See who shoots themselves in the head first. Both sides have their finger on the trigger.

[August]

It's along the smae lines as the Dems who are all of a sudden up in arms over the patriot act having a little clause in it about the DOJ being able to fire prosectors willy nilly. Had they read the damn thing before signing off on it, they would have known it was there. :damn:

Well on that point they don't have a leg to stand on, having fired, what? 93 prosecutors at once during the Reno/Clinton administration? IIRC for blatently political reasons. That's one of the things I dislike the most about the Democrats. They love to lambaste the other side for things they themselves have done.

Unlike you however I don't think anyone was lied to regarding Saddams immediate threat or WMDs but rather I believe there was a willingness to believe the reports they all were getting, mainly due to the obvious long term risks of leaving him in power while we tried to fight the war on terror in that region.

Sadddams specific weapons capabilities aside, I don't think anyone can seriously say he wasn't going to do whatever he could to get back at us for foiling his dreams of greater Iraq. Now that we have boots on the ground there we of course know he was more bark than bite after his 1991 defanging but even so, he was trying to get the UN sanctions lifted and had he been successful it wouldn't have taken him long to buy himself a new set. As it was he was shooting at our planes on almost a daily basis. That doesn't sound, at least to me, like someone we could afford to turn our backs on.

[Enigma]

That's one of the things I dislike the most about the Democrats. They love to lambaste the other side for things they themselves have done.

interestingly enough, thats one of the things I dislike most about the Republicans. Whoda thunk it, eh? :smug: