Angle Of Bow.......Quick Question

[aso544]

What is AOB based on? The bow /heading of my sub to the target or the bearing from my TDT/Periscope to the target?

What is the best way to plot my sub and my target to determine the AOB? Can i use my attack map?

Sorry, slightly struggling on the manual TDT although the video really helped minus this one areas.

[LargeSlowTarget]

AoB is the bearing of your sub as seen from the target, i.e. you must take the position of the target's skipper who is looking at your sub. If the target is heading straight at you, the AoB is 0, if it is showing his entire broadside to you the AoB is 90.

AoB can be estimated by sight or plotted on the map (draw course of the target and measure the bearing to your sub)

[aso544]

If he is heading straight toward me that AOB is "0", but what if he is heading to my starbord side (90 degrees)? Is the AOB still zero or does my bow heading factor into this equation as well?

[mookiemookie]

No, your bow heading doesn't matter. As LST said, all angle on bow means is where you are in relation to his bow. Think of it this way, if the other ship's watch crew spotted your submarine, they would call out "Submarine spotted, bearing ___" That number would be the AOB.

[jesterofsanity]

I think mainly why people get confused about AOB is because most people write it out as "Angle of Bow" or "Angle on Bow." It's actually "Angle Off Bow" which, if you think about it in relation to the target, makes a whole lot more sense (at least to me).

[Snowman999]

No, your bow heading doesn't matter. As LST said, all angle on bow means is where you are in relation to his bow. Think of it this way, if the other ship's watch crew spotted your submarine, they would call out "Submarine spotted, bearing ___" That number would be the AOB.


Not quite. AOB (Angle on the Bow) has to include Port or Starboard--the target's port or starboard side as seen by the sub. AOB can therefore never be numerically greater than 180 degrees. In your example it would be possible for the submarine to be bearing 270 relative, and thus give an AOB of 270 (without port or starboard, which renders it incorrect too.) An AOB of 270 isn't possible.

AOB is taught in USN Sub School (the real one, not the one in the game <g>) using vectors. The Line-of-Sight (LOS) is an imaginary line extending from the center of the observer's vessel (sub) through the center of the target. The vector is the target's course (AOB results) and speed (length of vector.) If the target's bow is to the right of the LOS it's a starboard AOB; left it's a port. Broadside is a 90 AOB, either port or starboard, etc. The AOB is the angle between the LOS and the TARGET'S bow.

[mookiemookie]

No, your bow heading doesn't matter. As LST said, all angle on bow means is where you are in relation to his bow. Think of it this way, if the other ship's watch crew spotted your submarine, they would call out "Submarine spotted, bearing ___" That number would be the AOB.
Not quite. AOB (Angle on the Bow) has to include Port or Starboard--the target's port or starboard side as seen by the sub. AOB can therefore never be numerically greater than 180 degrees. In your example it would be possible for the submarine to be bearing 270 relative, and thus give an AOB of 270 (without port or starboard, which renders it incorrect too.) An AOB of 270 isn't possible.

AOB is taught in USN Sub School (the real one, not the one in the game <g>) using vectors. The Line-of-Sight (LOS) is an imaginary line extending from the center of the observer's vessel (sub) through the center of the target. The vector is the target's course (AOB results) and speed (length of vector.) If the target's bow is to the right of the LOS it's a starboard AOB; left it's a port. Broadside is a 90 AOB, either port or starboard, etc. The AOB is the angle between the LOS and the TARGET'S bow.

:damn: D'oh! Forgot to mention that part about it being relative to port or starboard. Ah well, I knew someone would come along and explain it better than me.

[Tieg]

Concur with snowman999. As a current instructor at Naval Submarine school I can backup snowman's claim. Also, as for the term angle off the bow...that is incorrect...we here at subscol have an impressive array of references...and believe it or not one of our more important ones I am going to share with you right now...we would appreciate it if you didn't share this with any Navies foreign.

www.google.com (http://www.google.com) ;)

Don't get me wrong...we have bowditch and notice to mariners as well as some other instructions and what not...but before we crack open a book...most of the time I google it due to the fact some nice soul out there has taken the info and put it on the internet. Hope I didn't bust anyone's bubble by letting the reference out.

Anyhow, with a little bit of ingenuity I googled angle on the bow and came out with the following:

Angle on the bow -- Relative bearing of submarine from the target ship measured to starboard or port from the target ship's head from 0° to 180°. (ref: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/ss-doc-4.htm )

Also looked through this link only because of all the different fleet boat terminology which was cool: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/chap2.htm

This one is a good link that some guy converted over into SH3 terminology and images and posted on the subsim forum: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/oct_preview_pics/previe27.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/preview_sh3_oct04_tdc.htm&h=372&w=601&sz=35&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=5oOIdOJo7BVjiM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dangle%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bbow%26svnum%3D10%2 6um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

This one has a great illustration...treat the arrows as your sub and all you have to determine is whether your seeing the port side or the starboard side of the ship so for the example given those are all starboard angle on the bows except for the 0 and 180 degrees: http://www.sailingusa.info/current_deviation.htm

You could go on and on looking for stuff if you like.

I hope this helps you and good hunting and remember...if you got a 90 degree angle on the bow at 1000yards or less...let them fish fly and send them japs to the bottom. :arrgh!:

[mookiemookie]

This one is a good link that some guy converted over into SH3 terminology and images and posted on the subsim forum: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/oct_preview_pics/previe27.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/preview_sh3_oct04_tdc.htm&h=372&w=601&sz=35&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=5oOIdOJo7BVjiM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dangle%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bbow%26svnum%3D10%2 6um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


That "some guy" is "Onkel" Neal Stevens, webmaster of Subsim. :rotfl: :up:

[Tieg]

Webmaster??? as in God???

Only 2 things come from Texas....

Webmasters and ..... well lets just leave it at webmaster...don't want to get excused from the website ;)

[aso544]

This one is a good link that some guy converted over into SH3 terminology and images and posted on the subsim forum: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/oct_preview_pics/previe27.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh3_1104/preview_sh3_oct04_tdc.htm&h=372&w=601&sz=35&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=5oOIdOJo7BVjiM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dangle%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bbow%26svnum%3D10%2 6um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


That "some guy" is "Onkel" Neal Stevens, webmaster of Subsim. :rotfl: :up:

Dang, I wish SH4 had the same tools for computing / plotting the AOB. The post in this thread did help me in figuring out AOB though.....hopefully!

Thanks guys!!!

[valpospe]

Not an expert here by any measure....but this is what I usually do.

If you have a plot line for the target's course just use the angle tool on the map. It takes three clicks. The first one is just out in front of your target along its course, the second click is at the bow of the target ship. The third click is back on your sub. The angle displayed should be the AOB value, then you just need to notice whether his port or starboard is presenting to you and Yahtzee. Pretty quick and painless if you have a good idea of the target's course and has been working well for me.

-happy hunting

[Snowman999]

Concur with snowman999. As a current instructor at Naval Submarine school I can backup snowman's claim.

Thanks. I graduated SOBC in 1981; it's been a while.

[Snowman999]

If you have a plot line for the target's course just use the angle tool on the map. It takes three clicks. The first one is just out in front of your target along its course, the second click is at the bow of the target ship. The third click is back on your sub. The angle displayed should be the AOB value, then you just need to notice whether his port or starboard is presenting to you and Yahtzee. Pretty quick and painless if you have a good idea of the target's course and has been working well for me.


I don't have the game, so I don't know how the plots work yet, but the problem with this idea is that the AOB is HOW you determine target course. And it has to be assessed by the Approach Officer from a couple of grainy, watery looks. You can't take three bearings, connect them, and call it a course because bearings are the result of relative motion--you're on a moving observation platform. You also don't know the target's speed (yet) and bearing presentation is affected by speed. A close, fast contact will have little bearing change if it has a narrow AOB; a distant, slow, broad contact will show the same bearing change. One is a collision, the other a pretty picture.

The AOB is critical. It establishes the target course--the "track"--which gives the distance-to-the-track, which gives the optimal approach course and speed, and ultimately, gyro angle. Unlike speed (sonar) and range (stadimeter), AOB depends on the skill of the Approach Officer and years of practice.

[valpospe]

I don't have the game, so I don't know how the plots work yet, but the problem with this idea is that the AOB is HOW you determine target course. And it has to be assessed by the Approach Officer from a couple of grainy, watery looks. You can't take three bearings, connect them, and call it a course because bearings are the result of relative motion--you're on a moving observation platform. You also don't know the target's speed (yet) and bearing presentation is affected by speed. A close, fast contact will have little bearing change if it has a narrow AOB; a distant, slow, broad contact will show the same bearing change. One is a collision, the other a pretty picture.

The AOB is critical. It establishes the target course--the "track"--which gives the distance-to-the-track, which gives the optimal approach course and speed, and ultimately, gyro angle. Unlike speed (sonar) and range (stadimeter), AOB depends on the skill of the Approach Officer and years of practice.

In real life, perhaps, and for the manual purist who wants to do it like they did it. I'm not pretending to be an expert as I indicated in my first post, but I have found that I can get a pretty good solution using the method I described.

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).

For example, make visual contact with target, mark location on map. Make another mark in 3 minutes. You can use this to get a rough idea of speed and if you a draw a line through those two marks you get a pretty good estimate of course. You can then use the angle tool to grab a AOB measurement. Go to Scope and take bearing and distance and enter speed and AOB and you should have a decent solution that usually requires a tweak here or there. I'm not claiming that this is the offical way to do it, but the original poster asked for ways to calculate AOB and I offered one way that works for me in the game.

-happy hunting

[Snowman999]

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).


What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free?

[Tieg]

There is a way to do it 100% manually which some purist like to do to immerse themselves into the game....

Personally...I did it so much on the Hampton and on the Parche that I would rather spend my time sinking ships and utilizing some other dude to figure out the solutions. I did it enough myself for some guy ;)

[Snowman999]

There is a way to do it 100% manually which some purist like to do to immerse themselves into the game....

Personally...I did it so much on the Hampton and on the Parche that I would rather spend my time sinking ships and utilizing some other dude to figure out the solutions. I did it enough myself for some guy ;)

VBG. I feel the same way. I don't understand the mania for fire-control in sub sims at the expense of so much else that's fun about driving boats and playing CO. Attack after attack. But no movie night, half-way night, or harassing dinks.

I was so dangerous they made me Time-Range plotter. Gave me lots of time to look over the Geo plot's shoulder and offer "helpful" comments. Once, in the trainer, I noticed that the Eng's PK range solution was great, except for the huge island sonar would have to be getting bearings through. When the chart was applied to the geo plot the range walked in to "Oh, Crap" levels and we snap-shot at a Charlie II that had already fired at us five minutes before. I hope Mama got a nice telegram.

[Tieg]

I will admit...the majority of my time was CEP....what a drag that thing was except at battle stations.. :)

[valpospe]

What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free?

The Course isn't "auto-plotted" I plot it after making observations of the target over a period of time. While it may be true that in real life someone charting the course of a target might have already had to figure out what the AoB is. For the purposes of this game, at least how I've gone at it, just because I have manually put down a best guess plot of what I think the target's course is doesn't mean that I "know" the AoB (once you have the course the AoB becomes a known value, but you still need to get the actual number to input to the TDC) and more importatnly the TDC doesn't know it. Just because it's known doesn't mean you know it (didn't Yogi Berra say that :))

In other words, while in real life AoB may be used to figure out course, I've found that by marking a target's position over time I can estimate course and then get a reasonable value for AoB for the purposes of a firing solution. So no, the game does not send the AoB to the TDC automatically (in manual targeting mode) and it doesn't really give you a course for free (although with map updates on it more or less does).

[Snowman999]

The Course isn't "auto-plotted" I plot it after making observations of the target over a period of time. While it may be true that in real life someone charting the course of a target might have already had to figure out what the AoB is. For the purposes of this game, at least how I've gone at it, just because I have manually put down a best guess plot of what I think the target's course is doesn't mean that I know the AoB and more importatnly the TDC doesn't know it.


OK. Sounds like you're doing a crude maneuvering board solution without the benefit of a polar display. That will work, IF you have enough time to take multiple observations with enough time between to generate bearing rate. In real life this usually wasn't feasible due to zigging and the need to run like hell for the firing point as soon as a crude solutoin (from AOB) was available.

[_Seth_]

If anyone is still wondering; Here is a crude drawing that explains how to find the AOB:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1489/aobdw8.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).


What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free? @seth: it won't make much difference in your accuracy, but the angle's vertex should be in the middle of the target and the angle extend to the middle of your sub to be technically correct. It's easy to demonstrate that doesn't make any difference in shooting accuracy though, so I'll only fight you if the I have an unfair advantage.:up:

Here I am replying before I have read the entire thread. Generally I am getting fixes on the target with radar, connecting two fixes six minutes apart to estimate average course and speed. I use the average course to set my AoB and my solution will remain correct so long as I have taken a true average zig pattern. Plotting the course line and points that predict where he will be at six minute intervals along the average course let me determine changes in course or speed that I need to compensate for. By the time he comes into sight I have a good idea what he is going to do and how I will react to it. I try to wait at a right angle course to the track about 700 yards off the track, at periscope depth and ½ kt running silent.

Lately I have been coupling the above with what we are calling the Dick O'Kane attack method. Although O'Kane was a TDC/PK wizard, he preferred not to use the contraption for its intended purpose! What's the saying that no device is so perfectly designed that it cannot be perverted into doing something useful?:arrgh!:

I'm curious. Could you two real sub guys check out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67 and let me know if you ever did anything similar? Also, this will give you some feel for how the game mechanics work. You might be interested in MoBo, the Electronic Maneuvering Board and Dead Reckoning Tracker at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=563679&postcount=1

[XLjedi]

AOB is taught in USN Sub School using vectors.

You mean something like this?
http://xl-logic.com/mobo/tutorial_pics/AoB_20070827_01.PNG
This was a fairly simple example I drew up previously to show folks how to easily calculate AoB with the formula if you put your sub on a 90° beam of the target's expected course.

And from the other side...
http://xl-logic.com/mobo/tutorial_pics/AoB_20070827_02.PNG

[mookiemookie]

Another way to simply think about it is to imagine you're holding two flashlights on the bridge of the target ship. Straight ahead is 0, directly behind you is 180. Aim one directly ahead of you, and the other at the submarine. Whatever the angle between the two flashlight beams, that's your AOB. In other words, if the sub is directly aside you on the starboard side, it'd be a 90 degree starboard AOB. If it's directly aside you on the port side, it's a 90 degree port AOB.

[denny927]

No, your bow heading doesn't matter. As LST said, all angle on bow means is where you are in relation to his bow. Think of it this way, if the other ship's watch crew spotted your submarine, they would call out "Submarine spotted, bearing ___" That number would be the AOB.

great, very very good example:up:

[denny927]

and when my submarine is in standby in periscopedepth, targeting a destroyer with the stern?is the same thing i suppose?

[denny927]

In real life, perhaps, and for the manual purist who wants to do it like they did it. I'm not pretending to be an expert as I indicated in my first post, but I have found that I can get a pretty good solution using the method I described.

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).

For example, make visual contact with target, mark location on map. Make another mark in 3 minutes. You can use this to get a rough idea of speed and if you a draw a line through those two marks you get a pretty good estimate of course. You can then use the angle tool to grab a AOB measurement. Go to Scope and take bearing and distance and enter speed and AOB and you should have a decent solution that usually requires a tweak here or there. I'm not claiming that this is the offical way to do it, but the original poster asked for ways to calculate AOB and I offered one way that works for me in the game.

-happy hunting

true, in fact i used the same method too, only one thing, when i estimate the aob, i waste precious seconds putting values on tdc, the target is constantly moving, specially if the target is a destroyer patrolling a certain zone, like tokio(sound a little dangerous, but i want see what is there:hmmm:), at 18,20 knots....any tricks?and sorry for the previous post about the "very very very good example", was not quite good:P

[magic452]

The heading of your boat has nothing to do with the AoB so the AoB is the same if you're using bow or stern tubes.

If the time it takes to enter AoB is causing you problems than you don't have a very good set up and if you're attacking a DD in shallow water than you better have a very good set up or I predict a very short career for you.

With map contacts on the very best way to get AoB is to use the three minute rule and the target course and speed. I do it three times if I have the time, this gives you very good course and speed. Draw a line through all the Xs and than take the ruler tool with tool helper on. This gives you a compass rose. Put the rose on the target course ahead of the target and read the number closest to the target, this is the target's true course. Remember this number, it will give you AoB later.

Go the the periscope and start inputting you data. Turn on the Position Keeper. First input Speed, from the three minute rule, Second the AoB.

"Wait a minute I don't have an AoB" you say . "Yes you do" I say. You have the target course. Go to the AoB input dial and turn it Port or Starboard depending on which side of the target you'll be shooting at, and turn it a few degrees, just take a guess. You will see the target ship symbol on the top left dial of the TDC turn when you send AoB to the TDC. The bow of the symbol will point to a number on the outer ring of the dial, this number is the heading of the target. A target moving from left to right straight across the screen will be heading 90° or due west. Turn the Aob dial till the bow points to the number 9 on the outer ring when you send to TDC. Do this for whatever course you got for your target and your AoB is set into the TDC and with the PK on it will update as the ship gets closer. As long as the dial points to the correct course you have a near perfect AoB. Next you need range and bearing, get this from the steadimeter. Check your firing solution on the attack map and make adjustments as necessary.

"Wait a minute I don't have time to do all this" you say.
"You better have the time" I say "Else you'll never live to see the inside of Tokyo Bay". Those DDs patrol in a more or less circular pattern, wait till he comes around again and make the time. Angry DD + shallow water = short career. Hope you are doing this at night or bad weather, even less chance of seeing Tokyo if you're not.

If I was in your shoes I'd use a vector analysis shot for this DD.
All you need is course and speed and your all set.
"Wait a minute I don't know what a vector analysis shot is" you say.
"See Rockin Robbins bag of tricks sticky thread for full details" I say.

Good luck and good hunting

Magic

[timmyg00]

I will admit...the majority of my time was CEP....what a drag that thing was except at battle stations.. :)
CEP was better than bearing recorder...!

TG

[Daniel Prates]

Another way to simply think about it is to imagine you're holding two flashlights on the bridge of the target ship. Straight ahead is 0, directly behind you is 180. Aim one directly ahead of you, and the other at the submarine. Whatever the angle between the two flashlight beams, that's your AOB. In other words, if the sub is directly aside you on the starboard side, it'd be a 90 degree starboard AOB. If it's directly aside you on the port side, it's a 90 degree port AOB.

I think that's "bearing", not "AOB".

EDIT: relative bearing, anyways. The course to a target, considering a north/south line, is "true bearing", whereas the course to a target, considering your own axis ov advance, is "relative bearing". What you are describing is relative bearing, not AOB.

'AOB' is the direction towards which the target is pointing, as you look at it directly.

[Sailor Steve]

I think that's "bearing", not "AOB".
He mentioned "on the bridge of the target ship". The bearing he sees you at is the AOB.

[19Herr_Rapp86]

For those who use gadgets, this thing helps

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=556&pictureid=5000

[Sailor Steve]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2902

[LordCucumber]

I generally try to eyeball the AOB. Interesting to read people have developed a tool for it. I take it eyeballing was the practiced method back in the day?

[razark]

Step 1: Get range and bearing. Mark on map.
Step 2: Wait a bit. (Note the time between fixes.)
Step 3: Get range and bearing. Mark on map.
Step 4: Draw line between two position fixes.
Step 5: Get target course from line.
Step 6: Get target speed from line.
Step 7: Enter target course, speed, and bearing into the 3D TDC mod.
Step 8: Maneuver into position, refining your data.
Step 9: Fire!
Step 10: Reply to four year old posts on Subsim.


I take it eyeballing was the practiced method back in the day?
Eyeballing it was often the only method available during the war. Some, like O'Kane, got very good at it.

Using it in game is not always easy, due to limitations of the graphics, but you're also not under the same sort of pressure the real skippers were.

[denny927]

I generally try to eyeball the AOB. Interesting to read people have developed a tool for it. I take it eyeballing was the practiced method back in the day?

hey, but you are that lordcucumber who upload a let's play silent hunter 4 on youtube?

[Rockin Robbins]

On a submarine in pre-radar days, the most accurate piece of information you had on the target was your Mark I Eyeball estimate of its Angle on the Bow. Therefore, using anything else to figure it just didn't make sense, because it was all MUCH less accurate than the AoB estimate! Therefore, eyeball estimated AoB became the standard for WWII.

Actually, if you had radar you could use the two position method of deriving target course and speed, and be more accurate than we are able to be in the game. But, submariners being a traditional lot, most captains had their crew still using the eyeballed AoB for their plotting.

Now if you study it, you can directly set target course into the TDC in the place of AoB, and this is exactly what they began transitioning to when radar became the targeting method, replacing all the black magic that came before.

Just that word, radar, spells the absolute superiority of the American submarine over the U-Boats in WWII. With radar their productivity doubled because they were no longer shooting on a guess.

[I'm goin' down]

you're also not under the same sort of pressure the real skippers were.

:up: Getting knocked off by one of Ducimus' dds in TMO may cause you to be late for dinner, but it won't (or shouldn't) kill you.

[razark]

...cause you to be late for dinner, but it won't (or shouldn't) kill you.
You don't eat dinner with my wife.
:dead:

[Arlo]

:up: Getting knocked off by one of Ducimus' dds in TMO may cause you to be late for dinner, but it won't (or shouldn't) kill you.

Well, as my dear sweet better half occasionally reminds me - the game has a pause button but dinner (and the rest of the family) doesn't. :03:

[Arlo]

On a slightly related note, my wife has quite a rack on her so when she's headed straight for me the 'angle of boobies' is 000'.

[CapnScurvy]

Man-O-man, bringing back a post from 2007!

As Mookiemookie pointed out with his "flash light" analogy, Angle on bow is the point of reference taken "from" the target ship. Putting yourself on the target ship is a good way to think about it. The angle of the subs position compared to the target ships "relative bearing" is AoB.

Relative bearing is the "relationship" (see the connection, relative/relationship?), of a specific bearing that surrounds you (or to be specific, the ship that you're on). In the case of either the sub or target ship, the relative bearing of zero is at the bow, 180 degrees is directly over the stern, 90 degrees is directly perpendicular to the ships right (starboard), 270 is directly to the left (port). Relative bearing does not change, no matter which direction the target or sub is traveling, relative bearing of the stern is always 180 degrees.

AoB is the amount of angle of an "object" (like the subs position to the target ship) compared to the targets ship's relative bearing (or the zero degree reference point, the Bow of the target ship). For instance, the sub is sitting on the targets port side, directly perpendicular; the AoB is "90 degrees, port".

A tutorial that might be helpful is found HERE (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=907). Not only are AoB, relative bearing, or true North bearing explained, but how to get accurate AoB by plotting a targets position on the Navigation Map (with "No Contacts Updated" enabled in the options menu).

As Rockin Robbins mentioned, AoB was most accurately obtained by eyesight. Nothing beats the human binocular vision for determining distance, or judging angles. Surface scouting, and target determination's were much easier with the use of the bridge as a vantage point. But lets face it, the game is played on a 2 dimensional screen, you're looking at one right now. Get up for a minute and look out a window. Judging distance to an object, or making a guess of it's measurements is fairly easy using both eyes. Now cover one of your eyes and make the same estimate of distance or size. It's much harder. That's what we are doing with the 2 dimensional game, trying to make a simulation of real life to work in a game environment that can't duplicate real life.

So we're left with making determinations of range, or AoB with the tools available. Not a very closely followed simulation of the real thing, but it's all we got.

[I'm goin' down]

Another way to simply think about it is to imagine you're holding two flashlights on the bridge of the target ship. Straight ahead is 0, directly behind you is 180. Aim one directly ahead of you, and the other at the submarine. Whatever the angle between the two flashlight beams, that's your AOB. In other words, if the sub is directly aside you on the starboard side, it'd be a 90 degree starboard AOB. If it's directly aside you on the port side, it's a 90 degree port AOB.

That did not work. I could not get to the bridge. My boat was submerged.

[Rockin Robbins]

As Rockin Robbins mentioned, AoB was most accurately obtained by eyesight. Nothing beats the human binocular vision for determining distance, or judging angles.

Well, that IS half right. With lots of practice, judging AoB by eyeball gets pretty accurate. Without practice, just using horse sense you'll get it wrong every time. It is definitely a learned skill, but the skillful can be within 5º and that's good enough.

However, I fly radio control airplanes and I can tell you that binocular vision is not good, it is not fair, it is not poor, it is worse than terrible for judging distance. It's worse than terrible because it flat out lies to you...... Try to fly the airplane behind the telephone pole 150' away......CRASH!!!! Let's try in front of the telephone pole. Surely that wil......CRASH!!!! I have determined that our binocular vision is way out of warranty and that a separation of 6 feet between pupils would be a good fix. The manufacturer says he can't retrofit all humans with the fix and won't fix just me.

However I have discovered a workaround that works well if you do not wish to impact with an object. If you see blue sky above the object and the same blue sky underneath your airplane it is likely you will not hit it. After lots of practice that's the best I can do.

I noticed the same thing when I moved from Michigan to Daytona Beach back in the 1960s. I was used to judging distance by how hazy things were in the distance. In this high humidity atmosphere right on the ocean, I lost my ability to determine distance. What I thought was half a mile away turned out to be three times that far.

I think our binocular vision, at best, gives us distance determination inside of 20' or so, and a false impression of distance determination further away than that. Our pupils are just too close together.:har:

[mookiemookie]

That did not work. I could not get to the bridge. My boat was submerged.

Then the sub captain had his AOB data on your ship just right. :rotfl2::arrgh!:

[Arlo]

... but the skillful can be within 5º and that's good enough.


If ya get the speed right, as well. I've had my TDC tell me that the ship I've carefully ranged and skillfully messtimated within 5' or so is traveling at 75 knots. (chuckle) But then, I don't pause to diddle my triangles on the charts like I should. You'd think I'd know better with the couple of reserve years I had playing OS. :o Perhaps I should play at the easy level and scrooge the higher percentage of game reward for full realism if I want to pretend I'm shouting 'mark' to others who are diddling the dials, pencils and protractors for me. But to be honest, I've managed to sink a few now ... even if they were behind, in front of or in back of the ship I was really shooting at. Third patrol - looking forwad to radar being designed for my boat or getting a new one with it. :ping:

[denny927]

The heading of your boat has nothing to do with the AoB so the AoB is the same if you're using bow or stern tubes.

If the time it takes to enter AoB is causing you problems than you don't have a very good set up and if you're attacking a DD in shallow water than you better have a very good set up or I predict a very short career for you.

well, i'll try this in a few moments,your rank dont lie, for now seems the best tricks i can get, for my knowledge of course:O:, thanks for the effort, and yes,running silent, the moon is high, destroyers are angry and im in a very shallow waters, i can feel the rocks taking care of my hull....I'll tell you how it will:D

[commandosolo2009]

What is AOB based on? The bow /heading of my sub to the target or the bearing from my TDT/Periscope to the target?

What is the best way to plot my sub and my target to determine the AOB? Can i use my attack map?

Sorry, slightly struggling on the manual TDT although the video really helped minus this one areas.

Angle on Bow: it's the angle formed from the course of the coming ship and your sub position.

As such, it has nothing to do with your sub heading or periscope bearing. But the periscope bearing will give an estimate of the target angle on bow, provided that the sightings and numbers collected over the time of target tracking are valid - initial angle on bow, initial speed, initial range then angle on bow 2 mins, speed 2 mins, range 2 mins. This is the thing about old subs. Only the trained eye, and experience IRL of the skipper that helped scoring ships, but that came in essence from previous experience.

To be straight, at first you'll have a hard time finding target ship speed, because the sea is not constant, and as soon as you pop scope, he'll do minor rudder inputs as in real life. then the angle on bow becomes difficult because the aspect: angle correlation which always changes with time and is never constant. Finally, the distance with a bugged stadimeter, a discrepancy which is reduced by sounding (which gives away your position).

Nowadays, subs have onboard computers and advanced optics to even see the brand of cigarettes the skipper is smoking. Tech has relieved the human factor.

[Daniel Prates]

I always gave much more effort in estimating a proper target speed, then a proper target AOB. Missing the correct AOB within 15 degrees to either side wont make much of a difference, whereas incorrectly inputing one extra knot will sure account for a miss.

So if you are in a tight spot and do not have much time to be guessing every single info on the target's vector, just do a rough AOB and waste your valuable seconds on distance and speed.

Sure, if you have lots of time, you can have fun with any of the various perfect-aob-guessing methods. But then, if you do, probably you also have time to camly plot an attack. If it is the case, you can manage to squeeze in into an ahead position, there the target "crosses your T". Beingin a 90 degrees lateral angle is the single most perfect firing position you can get - and in this position, a slightly-wrong AOB wont make much of a difference.

At least this is how I do it 99% of times.

[CapnScurvy]

.......... if you are in a tight spot and do not have much time to be guessing every single info on the target's vector, just do a rough AOB and waste your valuable seconds on distance and speed.

Sure, if you have lots of time, you can have fun with any of the various perfect-aob-guessing methods. But then, if you do, probably you also have time to camly plot an attack.

Something I think you guys miss is the ability to use the Backspace (Pause) key to stop the game.


I know...........


Some will say "pausing the action is unrealistic".


So, what do you call using time compression?! :hmmm:


In real life the firing party was made up of anywhere between 12 and 15 men. Each with specific duties relating to the task of getting a firing solution. The ability of stopping the game and yet still working with some of the tools shows the dev's had this in mind. After going to the Navigation Map and pausing the game, you can still work with the ruler, protractor, compass to plot a position, course heading, AoB estimation. Anything you want to do on the Nav Map is available with the game paused. You can pull up the Stop Watch and set the top plunger "down" to have the time start when you unpause the game. With the Stop Watch keeping time, using the pause button will stop the time, without erasing it (like what will happen if you click the top plunger to stop time).


The point is, don't let the idea of "pausing the game is unrealistic" stop you from enjoying the many ways of playing the game. After all, how is realism figured in when we're sitting at a desk, starring at a video screen, and thinking this is real war?

[Arlo]

Something I think you guys miss is the ability to use the Backspace (Pause) key to stop the game.


I know...........


Some will say "pausing the action is unrealistic".


So, what do you call using time compression?! :hmmm:


In real life the firing party was made up of anywhere between 12 and 15 men. Each with specific duties relating to the task of getting a firing solution. The ability of stopping the game and yet still working with some of the tools shows the dev's had this in mind. After going to the Navigation Map and pausing the game, you can still work with the ruler, protractor, compass to plot a position, course heading, AoB estimation. Anything you want to do on the Nav Map is available with the game paused. You can pull up the Stop Watch and set the top plunger "down" to have the time start when you unpause the game. With the Stop Watch keeping time, using the pause button will stop the time, without erasing it (like what will happen if you click the top plunger to stop time).


The point is, don't let the idea of "pausing the game is unrealistic" stop you from enjoying the many ways of playing the game. After all, how is realism figured in when we're sitting at a desk, starring at a video screen, and thinking this is real war?

I'm sold. I can rationalize the pause as simulating multiple individuals working on separate tasks. I just need to *remember* to pause in all the excitement. Save game is also my friend. Not necessarily for 'do overs' (though I do that, too, from time to time) but for 'honey-do' (spouse depthcharges). She loves me. I keep telling myself. :03:

[Rockin Robbins]

In real life the firing party was made up of anywhere between 12 and 15 men. Each with specific duties relating to the task of getting a firing solution.

Not only that, but a quick read of The Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual (http://hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm) will show that there were a hat load of tools they had that we don't have in-game, bearing difference plots, stadimeter plots, different slide rules, heck I'm going by memory and missing most of them. There is no realistic way to use even half of them during an approach in game. Yet the real submarine used all of them on every approach.

So we have choices on what exactly we wish to simulate. Do we want to simulate the real situation of having so many minutes to shoot and having to adapt our solution methods to fit the time pressure? Or do we want to simulate the use of all available tools to collect and reduce the data. Sometimes you can't have both. And you are left with unrealistic choice A opposed to unrealistic choice B. I would phrase it imperfect choice A vs imperfect choice B. Both choices feature a mix of desirable realism and undesirable unrealism.

Simulation: it isn't for sissies!~

[Arlo]

Simulation: it isn't for sissies!~

Silent Hunter 4
It's not your grandfather's simulation
(He had no access to this technology)

Silent Hunter 4
It's not just for breakfast anymore
(If you play it real time there's a month and a half of three meals a day)

Silent Hunter 4
For those who are never quite satisfied
(But satisfied enough to enjoy someone else's mod)

Silent Hunter 4
Sinking pixels for the Red, White and Blue, your country and momma
(Hey, there's a song in that)

[Rockin Robbins]

I could just as well have said "Modding--it isn't for sissies!" You are always open to legitimate griping, no matter what you choose to do because different parts of reality are often mutually exclusive in the game. You just get to choose who doesn't like you!:D You'll never make everybody happy. The unhappy ones will make lots of noise. The happy ones will not come to your defense.:har:

[Arlo]

The unhappy ones will make lots of noise. The happy ones will not come to your defense.:har:

Alas, true. But I think the Subsim guys (and gals, I reckon) aren't as bad as other communities (or I've missed it, if so). I appreciate every modder out there, even the ones who mod elements I'm not interested in or are struggling to perfect their craft. Hell, it's not like I've gotten brave or skillful enough to try it.

[Daniel Prates]

Having tea in queerish pottery is also not for sissies. It takes a butch, limey-speaking captian (though he's french) to do it manly.

http://saengerporcelain.com/i/trek/picard-design2.jpg