View Full Version : Torpedo Magnetic Detonation Possible Fix
Lost@Sea
03-30-07, 04:28 PM
Well I just fired up the sub school to test my theory and it seems to work.
I believe the contact and contact influence on the torpedo control are backwards.
I set to contact and depth of 20 feet on the 14.4 ft draft cruiser and sank it in 2 torps. Both I followed via external view and the definately went under the hull and did not hit it.
Anyone want to try it and comfirm please.
Lost@Sea
03-30-07, 04:47 PM
Update. Just fired a couple even deeper and there was very clearly open water between them and the hull. BOOM!! Gonna try this in a patrol and not sub school. Hope it works.
I've lately been noticing my missed torps (set to contact) randomly imploding in the sea when they get near something followed by a "Torpedo Impact!" msg. very odd.
U may be on to something.
PeriscopeDepth
03-30-07, 05:27 PM
I believe the contact and contact influence on the torpedo control are backwards.
Wouldn't surprise me. Glad we have such a great community that notices these things.
PD
i always set to CONTACT because of the reports about how bad the mag setting was. Yesterday i had two "torpedo impact" explode in the water, well short of the target. I however chaulked it up to my bad aim:o but it caught my attention becasue i was thinking WTF did it "impact"?
Lost@Sea
03-30-07, 05:31 PM
i always set to CONTACT because of the reports about how bad the mag setting was. Yesterday i had two "torpedo impact" explode in the water, well short of the target. I however chaulked it up to my bad aim:o but it caught my attention becasue i was thinking WTF did it "impact"?
That is exactly what got me thinking about backward wiring on the sub!'
Has anyone tried this yet to confirm or disprove?????
hachiman
03-30-07, 05:43 PM
Thats vey interesting and i just tested it myself and seems to be correct.
Should be very easily patched then if just a case of switching them around.
Well spotted mate.
DJSatane
03-30-07, 05:45 PM
DAMN So it seems the GUI is wrong?
Contact is actually Magnetic(Contact Influence)
Contact Influence is actually just Contact?
Damn, this is a breaktrough if thas true, maybe someone can mod the 2d graphic and reverse the names!
Bl@ckVoid
03-30-07, 05:46 PM
They explode prematurely on any setting. I have a save where i tried everything, high/ slow, contact, influence. From 2 to 4 torpedoes consistently were exploding prematurely. There is some randomness to it as distance to the boat when they exploded varied.
Strange thing is that it never happened before (contact exploder worked fine). Then i got Gato, Jan 1943 and troubles started.
LOL. I just left it on Contact Influence once and when I hit I actually SAW the damage on a merchant for the first time. ;P
Jungman
03-30-07, 06:08 PM
Wow, I need to check that one:o . Backwards. I tested and watch alot of torpedos trying to figure out the fast Mark14 speed bug, and the default Magnetic setting the torpedo would never explode if it went under the ship hull. They should be exploding anywhere under keel to 5.5 feet according to the .sim file.
That would explain why they are not exploding. Others have posted this. Well, lets go take a look.
Same premature explosion thing here that's gonna make me try a saved position for a 6th time:damn: however i was thinking whether it could be due to the sea roughness? (the torpedoes are sometimes acctually seem to fly between big waves on rough seas) any ideas ?
minsc_tdp
03-30-07, 06:40 PM
Added Bug #79 (http://sh4bugs.com/show_bug.cgi?id=79) for this
May affect Bug #73 (http://sh4bugs.com/show_bug.cgi?id=73)
Lost@Sea
03-30-07, 07:09 PM
Well for me anyway, my theory is confirmed. Broke the spines of both a huge cruiseliner and a large modern composite with one torp each. Mind you I had a premature exploder and 2 very badly aimed misses. (But they don't count and I blame my WO!!:p )
Strikor
03-30-07, 07:17 PM
Interesting. That would certainly explain why my torpedoes set to contact keep exploding UNDER the keel.
Werewolf13
03-30-07, 07:20 PM
I believe the contact and contact influence on the torpedo control are backwards.They're not the only thing backwards.
When you select the PPI radar scope icon you get the SD A scope and vice versa.
Stuff like that really makes me wonder what else is in there that's totally hosed.
You need to make sure one set on contact influence will pass close under a ship and not explode before you can definatley say this to be true...
Premature explosions are a different matter too..
Though I seem to remember doing some under the keel shooting and them not exploding.... I will retest...
Tobowsi
03-30-07, 07:25 PM
I don't think it's a problem with "contact" vs "contact & influence" but a problem with depth.
As examples, for me to get a keel shot on a large old passenger carrier (draft 28.0 feet), I set the depth for 24, and on a huge European liner (draft 27.9 feet), I have to set the depth at 20!
You may just need to experiment to find some useable depths rather than using the apparently useless drafts listed in the recognition manual.
fullmetaledges
03-30-07, 07:42 PM
I believe the contact and contact influence on the torpedo control are backwards.They're not the only thing backwards.
When you select the PPI radar scope icon you get the SD A scope and vice versa.
Stuff like that really makes me wonder what else is in there that's totally hosed.
check this out it's the right way in the manual, who knows why it got changed. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nailbomb/radar.jpg
Jungman
03-30-07, 08:09 PM
I set to contact and depth of 20 feet on the 14.4 ft draft cruiser and sank it in 2 torps. Both I followed via external view and the definately went under the hull and did not hit it.
I never seen it go 'under the hull', unless you are refering to something else. It is slamming into the 'hull'. You must go below 28 feet to actual go under blue water barely missing.
I cannot confirm your observation. I shot ALOT of torpedos for the one experiment in sub school training.
The Mogami Heavy Cruiser. Draft is stated as 4.4 meter = 14.4 feet.
I shoot torpedos at 28 feet deep hit ever time contact or magnetic setting.
I shoot torpedos at 29 feet deep miss under the hull every time contact or magnetic.
I expected the magnetic to explode, but it does not, nor does contact only.
Slow Mark 14 using auto-TDC no dud setting.
I do see damage under the keel area though, at 28 feet deep with both, nice big hole underneath the hull, not in the side.
The Mogami.sim file has the submerged draught set for 28 41 hex = 10.5. This means the ship is sitting into the water this deep. But according to above, the draft is really 28 feet? the 10.5 in meters ~ 34.3 feet. If you set to zero the ship will float on water.
So do we change the draft? Draught is the actual depth the boat is sitting in. Check it out. You can shoot a torpedo that deep and have it explode every time.
edit: corect value for .sim draft. What do you consider 'under the hull'? They do explode under the hull with massive damage, both contact and magnetic. I do not see any difference between either setting. they both hit or miss.
akdavis
03-30-07, 09:28 PM
I'm not sure about this one. I just ran 3 torpedos set to contact in a row down the length of ship without a detonation. Possibly there is a separate bug that causes the magnetic detonator not to work unless the torpedo crosses perdendicular under the hull, but I would not call this one confirmed.
Lost@Sea
03-30-07, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure about this one. I just ran 3 torpedos set to contact in a row down the length of ship without a detonation. Possibly there is a separate bug that causes the magnetic detonator not to work unless the torpedo crosses perdendicular under the hull, but I would not call this one confirmed.
I agree on the not comfirmed. I have now had a few non detonators, but always on the same game load. Gee I was getting excited too esp after dumping two large ships on single shots. On a bright note I managed to torp my own boat testing this. Oh wait that's not a bright note:doh:
Edit for a thought. I believe most of my under the keel hits, were aft end. As the aft of the cruiser isn't as deep as its middle hull, could it be the hit box for impact detection in the game is a rectangle box and not the accual shape of the hull??????
Im not convinced with this.
One thing i have noticed is unlike SH3 torps you need to be within about 3ft of the keel to actually detonate. This is under half what you had with SH3
This gives less margin for error, especially in rough seas and so on.
However flicking to magnetic i can get them to detonate and using contact i get them passing by underneath without going bang. I cant replicate your problem.
The dial resetting when you go away from it to default magnetic is a pain though.
fullmetaledges
03-30-07, 10:42 PM
Ok I just ran some tests and my results were inconclusive. I made a scenario in the mission builder. I posistioned my own sub a gato 1000 yards from a mogami. The mogami was not moving and it was at a 90 degree angle to my sub and I was firing right under the smoke stack. I fired 2 fish at 27ft one with contact and one with mag/contact, then at 26ft all the way down until I got an impact at 21 ft with the contact mag setting. It was definatly and impact and not a magnetic kill. I had 0 magnetic detonations with either setting. Could be because I was using the mark 14 and until I know how to change the loadout in the mission builder I won't know. The funny thing was that the most devistating hit was from a fish at a depth at 5 ft. attatched are the screenshots.
http://images23.fotki.com/v763/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test4-vi.jpg?1175312164
http://images24.fotki.com/v764/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test4-vi.jpg?1175312155
http://images22.fotki.com/v761/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test2-vi.jpg?1175312149[/URL]
http://images22.fotki.com/v757/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test2-vi.jpg?1175312140[URL="http://images22.fotki.com/v757/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test2-vi.jpg?1175312140"] (http://images22.fotki.com/v761/photos/1/1123982/4776612/test2-vi.jpg?1175312149)
Mogami does have a 5-10ft depth weak point just under the first gun forward of the bridge - the ammo store. Can get 1 shot kills quite often with it.
My testing with magnetic has generally shown me they arent reliable enough for me to risk using.
fullmetaledges
03-30-07, 10:48 PM
that would explain the massive hole
Jungman
03-31-07, 01:49 AM
gnirtS
ot a bit, but what country are you from? Your signature is showing someone burning an upside American flag. Plus it says Proudly supporting Iran in the up and coming war !
Is that a virus, or do you know about it? I think I would leave politics out of a game forum. :o Whatever it is, quite disturbing.
http://www.whitcombe.org.uk/files/flag.burning.jpg
BigStick
03-31-07, 02:39 AM
The other night I spent about 3 hours replaying a saved game trying to get a keel shot on a large composite freighter. I would repeatedly pass under the keel, no explosion. I eventually started decreasing depth by 1 foot and retrying the shot. I was passing under the keel every time with no explosion until I finally used a setting of 5 feet LESS than the listed draft...then I finally got consisternt explosions and damage. (No one-shot kills though). This raised a question in my mind...Did American early-war torpedos have a problem with running too deep? If so, do you suppose they modeled it in the game? Another thought...a freighter would naturally have some variance in actual versus listed draft depending on its load status. Fully loaded would ride much lower...again, could that variance be modeled in the game? I'd hate to think the recognition manual is wrong...I have enough trouble getting hits as it is!
fullmetaledges
03-31-07, 02:48 AM
The Mark 14 torpedo ran about 15 feet deeper than it was set
nimitstexan
03-31-07, 02:50 AM
This raised a question in my mind...Did American early-war torpedos have a problem with running too deep? If so, do you suppose they modeled it in the game?
Yes, early war Mk 14s did run deep and suffer from "porpising." Plus, the magnetic exploders often did not work because of the shape of a ship's magnetic field (it does not extend a uniform distance from the hull all the way around the ship, but this was not known at the time). Whether this is actually modeled in the game or not, though is another question.
Jungman
03-31-07, 02:53 AM
According to the sim file, yes the code is there to simulate deep running, gyo error, whole buch of stuff. I seen alot of different 'hit' depths.
Needs to be looked into. Each install of the game generates a random seed number for you in your folder. It may be using that to simulate the terrible, variable depth running and malfunctions. Who knows? USN had alot of problem in the early years of the war 70% plus failures so to speak.
Gives the Japanese forces a chance to make up for their poor ASW.
Ok I just ran some tests and my results were inconclusive. I made a scenario in the mission builder. I posistioned my own sub a gato 1000 yards from a mogami. The mogami was not moving and it was at a 90 degree angle to my sub and I was firing right under the smoke stack. I fired 2 fish at 27ft one with contact and one with mag/contact, then at 26ft all the way down until I got an impact at 21 ft with the contact mag setting. It was definatly and impact and not a magnetic kill. I had 0 magnetic detonations with either setting. Could be because I was using the mark 14 and until I know how to change the loadout in the mission builder I won't know. The funny thing was that the most devistating hit was from a fish at a depth at 5 ft.
My findings were basically the same. I was unable to obtain a Magnetic detonation at any time. Used Porpoise vs Large Tanker.
gnirtS
ot a bit, but what country are you from? Your signature is showing someone burning an upside American flag. Plus it says Proudly supporting Iran in the up and coming war !
Is that a virus, or do you know about it? I think I would leave politics out of a game forum. :o Whatever it is, quite disturbing.
http://www.whitcombe.org.uk/files/flag.burning.jpg
Its not a virus, its 100% deliberate. Im from the UK and its no different to people with american/israeli and other flags in the signature.
Its the internet, anyone taking offence can just stop reading.
Anyone to get back on topic.
There's another thread here showing that the recognition manual draft and the actually draft used in the game for various ships differ, sometimes quite a bit. I suspect its this causing the magnetics to not detonate or bounce off. Like the torpedo speed error the actual data in the game differs from what it should be.
If it is the case though it should be easyish to mod.
Its the internet, anyone taking offence can just stop reading.
No. It's not "the internet", it's a submarine simulation forum. Anyone wanting to get into politics should go to a politics forum.
Let it be known, by the way, that I am not American, so there's nothing personal in that statement: it's just a matter of politeness and good taste, both of which your current sig lacks completely.
As for the torpedo settings...
So far I have only used the contact pistol, probably because of my SH3 experience. One thing I've noticed, though, is that 3D damage from torpedoes is rarely shown, and many deck gun shells create a visible hole in the hull when torpedoes don't. With contact detonator, and 3D damage tuned all the way up in preferences, only about half of the torpedoes I fire create a visible hole, and often a small merchant takes three or four this way without sinking (it just slows down and shows a moderate list).
I also get premature detonations regularly with the contact setting.
Does the contact-influence setting do, direct to the hull (not under it) more damage, or are the firecracker-like torpedoes I'm getting not a pistol issue but a warhead one?
nvdrifter
03-31-07, 10:17 AM
Hi guys. Check this thread regarding torpedo detonation problems:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110051
I'm sure a mod fix will be coming soon. :arrgh!:
Its the internet, anyone taking offence can just stop reading.
No. It's not "the internet", it's a submarine simulation forum. Anyone wanting to get into politics should go to a politics forum.
Fine, then i hope you also complain to all the people with american and israeli flags in the signature. Thats just as political as my signature.
ccruner13
03-31-07, 10:37 PM
i set two magnetic mk 10s at 23 feet on a taiyo? escort carrier and both went underneath (barely) without detonating. then i fired one more at 23 set to contact and it also barely passed underneath but detonated directly underneath with a hole across the enitre bottom and spreading up alitle on both sides. fired from s-18 if that matters.
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