TDC speed

[Pratt&Whitney]

I tried to use the method to estimate speed like the manual says: When everything else is ready, I select speed mode, and then clock and start it. After 2 minutes I stop it. The manual says, I should now get a speed estimate on the dial, but it remains on zero. What is wrong? Is this a bug?

Other issue: Manual says, that you can ask crew to calculate solution, like in SH3, but I haven't found a way to do it so far. Is this a feature, that has been dropped?
I really miss the crew management of SH3. Commanding officers is fun and feels realistic.

[ryuzu]

I tried to use the method to estimate speed like the manual says: When everything else is ready, I select speed mode, and then clock and start it. After 2 minutes I stop it. The manual says, I should now get a speed estimate on the dial, but it remains on zero. What is wrong? Is this a bug?

Other issue: Manual says, that you can ask crew to calculate solution, like in SH3, but I haven't found a way to do it so far. Is this a feature, that has been dropped?
I really miss the crew management of SH3. Commanding officers is fun and feels realistic.

Yes to 1.

Don't know to 2nd.

r.

[Pratt&Whitney]

Also one thing, the manual says that once you have lock on target, you can move the periscope to the section of the ship you want the torpedo to hit, but I haven't got this working.

[Banquet]

There are plenty of things that don't work like the manual says they should unfortunately.

For the TDC speed calculation bug I would urge the devs to release a hotfix patch asap. They may have already fixed this and be working on other patch issues. If that is the case please just release the speed fix now.

Yesterday I fired all 12 torps in my S-18 and they all missed despite taking my time to get into a great firing position. Now I'm know I am not very good at manual TDC at the best of times but trying to estimate the speed without the stopwatch feature is made more frustrating by the highly inaccurate range measurement tool.

[Pratt&Whitney]

While I think SH3 being just perfect, I am little dissapointed to SH4. A working concept has been redone and not nearly as well as it was. I am seriously considerint to keep up with SH3

[joea]

While I think SH3 being just perfect, I am little dissapointed to SH4. A working concept has been redone and not nearly as well as it was. I am seriously considerint to keep up with SH3

SH3 is very good (not perfect) now, it was not perfect when it came out!!

[joea]

I really miss the crew management of SH3. Commanding officers is fun and feels realistic.

BTW crew management is more realistic in SH4. Captains did not tell their men to go to bed.

[ryuzu]

There are plenty of things that don't work like the manual says they should unfortunately.

For the TDC speed calculation bug I would urge the devs to release a hotfix patch asap. They may have already fixed this and be working on other patch issues. If that is the case please just release the speed fix now.

Yesterday I fired all 12 torps in my S-18 and they all missed despite taking my time to get into a great firing position. Now I'm know I am not very good at manual TDC at the best of times but trying to estimate the speed without the stopwatch feature is made more frustrating by the highly inaccurate range measurement tool.

In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.

So I'd suggest you use the auto TDC. If you don't want to manually determine speed, then there's no reason to have manual TDC on, since speed determination is the only tricky part.

r.

[rulle34]

In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.r.

How do you mean "works well enough when used correctly"??
Is there a way to use this "correctly" that you know about in the manual mode or do you mean it works well enough when you have auto TDC?

[Banquet]

There are plenty of things that don't work like the manual says they should unfortunately.

For the TDC speed calculation bug I would urge the devs to release a hotfix patch asap. They may have already fixed this and be working on other patch issues. If that is the case please just release the speed fix now.

Yesterday I fired all 12 torps in my S-18 and they all missed despite taking my time to get into a great firing position. Now I'm know I am not very good at manual TDC at the best of times but trying to estimate the speed without the stopwatch feature is made more frustrating by the highly inaccurate range measurement tool.
In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.

So I'd suggest you use the auto TDC. If you don't want to manually determine speed, then there's no reason to have manual TDC on, since speed determination is the only tricky part.

r.
Well, firstly I'm not talking about the Stadimeter, I'm talking about the stopwatch.

Secondly, I'm sure actual submarine crew had the use of an accurate 'ruler' to calculate the speed/movement over time with, which we don't appear to have available in SH4 (the range tool is highly inaccurate)

Thirdly, you may consider it not worth using manual TDC if you don't work out the speed manually.. I consider it to add a great deal of challenge over auto TDC even if the stopwatch worked. There are some functions that would be performed by other crew members!

[gnirtS]

Ive found using 2-3 minute intervals on the nav map can give me the speed despite the ruler only having 1 decimal place. Certainly near enough.

You can semi-cheat and tweak it later by comparing the position keeper white X with the target on a solution to see if it keep space with it.

Agree though the nav ruler needs 1 more decimal place than it has. Thats one thing the metric version has at least - more accuracy for distance.

[Banquet]

In this screenshot I used the range tool and clicked it just as it reached 0.1nm and then drew a second plot and clicked as soon as it reached 0.2nm.

You'd think the 0.2nm line would be twice and long as the 0.1nm line, but it's almost 3 times as long. I don't know if it is rounding up (so at 0.06nm it shows 0.1nm?) but either way it makes speed measurement a headache.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8104/sh4img31320071338296wr3.jpg

[ryuzu]

In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.r.

How do you mean "works well enough when used correctly"??
Is there a way to use this "correctly" that you know about in the manual mode or do you mean it works well enough when you have auto TDC?

I mean that I play with manual mode, and the ranges I observe using the stadimeter are working out OK.

Another thread talked about bad stadimeter ranges so for a while I put the map updates on and the ranges I got with the stadimeter were within reasonable accuracy of where the target was....

Bear in mind, the range hasn't got to be exact to determine a solution that will hit.

r.

[ryuzu]

There are plenty of things that don't work like the manual says they should unfortunately.

For the TDC speed calculation bug I would urge the devs to release a hotfix patch asap. They may have already fixed this and be working on other patch issues. If that is the case please just release the speed fix now.

Yesterday I fired all 12 torps in my S-18 and they all missed despite taking my time to get into a great firing position. Now I'm know I am not very good at manual TDC at the best of times but trying to estimate the speed without the stopwatch feature is made more frustrating by the highly inaccurate range measurement tool.
In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.

So I'd suggest you use the auto TDC. If you don't want to manually determine speed, then there's no reason to have manual TDC on, since speed determination is the only tricky part.

r.
Well, firstly I'm not talking about the Stadimeter, I'm talking about the stopwatch.

Secondly, I'm sure actual submarine crew had the use of an accurate 'ruler' to calculate the speed/movement over time with, which we don't appear to have available in SH4 (the range tool is highly inaccurate)

Thirdly, you may consider it not worth using manual TDC if you don't work out the speed manually.. I consider it to add a great deal of challenge over auto TDC even if the stopwatch worked. There are some functions that would be performed by other crew members!

Well you said "made more frustrating by the highly inaccurate range measurement tool." - I'm simply saying I don't think the stadimeter has a problem.

As for an accurate ruler - yes that is irritating. However, there are probably 5 ways to determine the speed of the target - only one of them requires requires a ruler with accuracy greater than 0.1Nm and only then if you're trying to shorten the time required to get the speed.

While I agree there are functions that the crew should do, the reality is that this is not a simulation in that regard at all - Ubi have degraded the crew assistance further over SH3 unfortunately, when I was hoping for a much greater "living crew" element. However, SH4 is what it is and we're stuck with it.


Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the range and AoB determination are such basic tasks as they stand, that they're barely worth doing. If you're trying to simulate the presence of a crew plotting bearings and working things out and making TDC settings, the Auto-TDC is probably closer to reality than the manual one.

But if you're using manual because of the extra challenge, then the speed calculation is the only significantly challenging part.

r.

[elanaiba]

I'm not sure I follow you: would you rather have the range determination part - which is done with the split image stadimeter - more difficult or different than it was done in real life?

[Banquet]

ryuzu, I should have been clearer about the 'range measurement tool' apologies for that.

I agree that manually calculating the speed is the most time consuming part of setting a solution on the TDC and that doing it manually is more realistic than clicking a stopwatch.. but I don't agree that unless you do it this way you may as well use auto TDC. On a pitching sea it can be time consuming to even ID a ship, and then to get a range with the stadimeter. Waves often block the periscope view leaving only fleeting glances at the target. The AOB setting is also, at some angles, quite hard to get right. This needs to be done before the situation changes significantly, requiring a re-positioning of the sub. Certainly very different in my opinion to pressing 'L' to lock the periscope and then press 'fire'!

Infact, although more time consuming, getting a speed measurement in my opinion would be the easiest of the 3 if you had an accurate way of measuring it on the attack map.

[ryuzu]

I'm not sure I follow you: would you rather have the range determination part - which is done with the split image stadimeter - more difficult or different than it was done in real life?

No not at all :)

I'm just saying that using the stadimeter is a straightforward task. There seem to be a lot of people complaining about the lack of an automatic method for speed determination.

All I'm trying to point out is that historically, there was no automatic means for determining speed - if you relegate the speed determination to a couple of left clicks, then you've removed the most difficult part of using the manual TDC.

So, if you're trying to go for realism in TDC operations, the speed determination is where the main work for the player lies - this is the step that will differentiate a hit from a miss. Removing that work by using the clock aid means that the manual targetting is greatly reduced in difficulty and the process is not much more difficult than auto-TDC targetting.

Ideally, I'd like to see the auto-speed tool removed altogether and in it's place an option to ask the navigator to provide a target solution based on observations to that point - that would be more historically accurate. Particularly if the navigator's accuracy was improved as more (and correct!) observation data was provided. Then you can make it an option to make the navigator always 100% accurate or not as a realism setting.

r.

[ryuzu]

ryuzu, I should have been clearer about the 'range measurement tool' apologies for that.

I agree that manually calculating the speed is the most time consuming part of setting a solution on the TDC and that doing it manually is more realistic than clicking a stopwatch.. but I don't agree that unless you do it this way you may as well use auto TDC. On a pitching sea it can be time consuming to even ID a ship, and then to get a range with the stadimeter. Waves often block the periscope view leaving only fleeting glances at the target. The AOB setting is also, at some angles, quite hard to get right. This needs to be done before the situation changes significantly, requiring a re-positioning of the sub. Certainly very different in my opinion to pressing 'L' to lock the periscope and then press 'fire'!

Infact, although more time consuming, getting a speed measurement in my opinion would be the easiest of the 3 if you had an accurate way of measuring it on the attack map.


Yes in bad weather the whole process is tricky and this is a reflection of history where commanders would either miss more often or hold their attack until the weather cleared or scrub the attack altogether.

If you're struggling with the stadimeter in bad weather (or good for that matter) there is the option of using sonar (either active or passive) to get a range.

The AoB can be tricky it's true, but then again, I try and manoeuver to a postion perpendicular to the predicted target course and then I set the AoB to what I expect it to be be - I don't usually set the AoB to an observation I make - then I wait for the target to get to that Aob (nearing 90 degrees generally).

r.

[elanaiba]

Oh, I see now!

Even in SH3, the accuracy of the speed observation was depending on the accuracy of the range measurement you took earlier.

[ryuzu]

In this screenshot I used the range tool and clicked it just as it reached 0.1nm and then drew a second plot and clicked as soon as it reached 0.2nm.

You'd think the 0.2nm line would be twice and long as the 0.1nm line, but it's almost 3 times as long. I don't know if it is rounding up (so at 0.06nm it shows 0.1nm?) but either way it makes speed measurement a headache.


Agreed - the ruler would be excellent if it would show Nms and Yards rather than Nm and 1/10ths of Nm - but it doesn't.

However, if you're trying to use the 3 minute rule, the distances covered over that period of time make the difference of a 10th of a Nm relatively small - perhaps the difference of 0.5kt which should still result in a hit.

As for the different lengths - I haven't looked at that in detail, I don't normally measure 0.1Nm vs 0.2Nm but there could be a bug with it I suppose. However, one other possible cause is your monitor and resolution settings - are you using a widescreen monitor or resolution at all?

r.

[Banquet]

The AoB can be tricky it's true, but then again, I try and manoeuver to a postion perpendicular to the predicted target course and then I set the AoB to what I expect it to be be - I don't usually set the AoB to an observation I make - then I wait for the target to get to that Aob (nearing 90 degrees generally).

r.
I've started doing this lately. Position myself so the ships will pass at 90 degrees port or starboard and set the AOB at that in advance.

So far I've only played subs that don't have radar.. but that's ok, I like the difficulties getting range, etc in bad weather. It's just the speed estimate that's giving me the problems.

edit - I'm using 15*9 widescreen res.. So far I've used 1 minute for the speed calcs.. I'll try lengthening this to 3 mins

Thanks for the advice :)

[Chrall]

In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The mast length is clearly wrong for various ships in SH4. I had huge problem using the stadimeter on the Nagara Maru "Large Modern Composite Freighter", it was impossible to get the right range, no wonder when the Recognition Manual says 30m when it really is 36.5m. It wasn't until Krupp fixed this (link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109953)) I could use the stadimeter fully. Sure this might not matter at close range but at 1000m and up you'll run into problem.

[Mav87th]

ryuzu, I should have been clearer about the 'range measurement tool' apologies for that.

I agree that manually calculating the speed is the most time consuming part of setting a solution on the TDC and that doing it manually is more realistic than clicking a stopwatch.. but I don't agree that unless you do it this way you may as well use auto TDC. On a pitching sea it can be time consuming to even ID a ship, and then to get a range with the stadimeter. Waves often block the periscope view leaving only fleeting glances at the target. The AOB setting is also, at some angles, quite hard to get right. This needs to be done before the situation changes significantly, requiring a re-positioning of the sub. Certainly very different in my opinion to pressing 'L' to lock the periscope and then press 'fire'!

Infact, although more time consuming, getting a speed measurement in my opinion would be the easiest of the 3 if you had an accurate way of measuring it on the attack map.

So this might be part of the problem that the boats had in the Real Pacific Theater. Many boats came home having shot 6, 8, 9 or more torpedos and not hit anything..I guess SH4 is just realistic in that part as well..:|\\

Real boat was buggy as hell - SH4 is buggy as hell.

Real skippers did not bitch to much, they just tried and tried and tried. And for them it DID take 20 days to even get to the patrol area, to me it takes mere 30 min's or something:arrgh!:


Not even going to mention the hardship the S-boats had around the Aleutians.

[ryuzu]

In my experience, the Stadimeter works well enough when used correctly.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The mast length is clearly wrong for various ships in SH4. I had huge problem using the stadimeter on the Nagara Maru "Large Modern Composite Freighter", it was impossible to get the right range, no wonder when the Recognition Manual says 30m when it really is 36.5m. It wasn't until Krupp fixed this (link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109953)) I could use the stadimeter fully. Sure this might not matter at close range but at 1000m and up you'll run into problem.

Well, I don't bother with shots much above 1000m - in the pacific theater it's not worth it. May as well get in close and give yourself the best chance of scoring a hit.

As for the mast height issue - at 1000m the difference between a 30m mast and a 36m mast is ~ 0.3 degrees in the scope. A significant difference true, but not so wildly out that you would completely miss with a spread. At longer ranges, the difference becomes smaller to the point where it would be well within the limits of accuracy of the stadimeter itself.

As you point out though, there is a mod/fix for that particular issue now.

r.

[ryuzu]

The AoB can be tricky it's true, but then again, I try and manoeuver to a postion perpendicular to the predicted target course and then I set the AoB to what I expect it to be be - I don't usually set the AoB to an observation I make - then I wait for the target to get to that Aob (nearing 90 degrees generally).

r.
I've started doing this lately. Position myself so the ships will pass at 90 degrees port or starboard and set the AOB at that in advance.

So far I've only played subs that don't have radar.. but that's ok, I like the difficulties getting range, etc in bad weather. It's just the speed estimate that's giving me the problems.

edit - I'm using 15*9 widescreen res.. So far I've used 1 minute for the speed calcs.. I'll try lengthening this to 3 mins

Thanks for the advice :)

Yes the 3 min approach will minimise the errors further. In principle you could reduce 3 mins to 18 seconds, but the short distances invovlved make it very tricky to get an accurate speed.

There is a mod though that adds yards to the bearing plotter on the Nav Map so you could use that for a more accurate distance measurement....

However, the most consistent approach I've found is to use the length of the target ship (this is listed in the printed Rec Manual and poster that come with the game - in metres though so take that into account) and time how long it takes for the bow to stern to pass the periscope cross hair. This works best at or near to 90 degrees AoB, but is quick, doesn't require any plotting and gives a pretty accurate mathematical solution for speed at good torpedo ranges (~ 1000yds). I use this for my final speed entry into the TDC once I've set up the attack.

r.

[Banquet]

I've tried that mod (mast height) and gone from missing with 16 torps in a row (oh the shame!) to hitting with 5 out of 6. It may be a coincidence because prior to my 16 misses I was hitting with a few at least.. but it does seem to be having a beneficial effect.

edit:alas I don't have the rec manual version of the game - sounds like a nice way of doing though

[ryuzu]

I've tried that mod (mast height) and gone from missing with 16 torps in a row (oh the shame!) to hitting with 5 out of 6. It may be a coincidence because prior to my 16 misses I was hitting with a few at least.. but it does seem to be having a beneficial effect.

edit:alas I don't have the rec manual version of the game - sounds like a nice way of doing though

I think someone in the mod forum made a html version of the data if you can get it.

r.