Damage control explained heavy pics

[AVGWarhawk]

Before I left port I recruited some of the swabs hanging around. I put them in the damage control compartments on the crew screen and this is all they did.....damage control.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/sh42007-03-2921-09-19-48.jpg

On the way to port I was lollygaggin and got whacked by some planes. As you can see, stern is down and flooding is critical. Not a good situation.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/sh42007-03-2921-09-30-93.jpg


As you can see my bulkhead in the stern is toast. The dark red line indicates heavy damage. I set the boys on this because they have already repaired the pump. I made this priority one on the pumps. Note the darker red on bulkhead in the priority page. The dark red means the boys are working on it. Please note the blue over the badly damaged bulkhead. This indicates flooding. Critical at that. Although the pumps are working the stern is too far gone. The party is over.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/sh42007-03-2921-21-24-81.jpg


As you can see I have made all repairs but stern still down and the I suspect the hull damage is very bad after seeing this. I'm currently now making 15kts after repairing the diesels. Before I was making 11kts. I left the decoy for last. No decoys in US subs anyway. My stern is still blue in color indicating still filling with water. Again, my party is over.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/sh42007-03-2921-09-46-98.jpg

Please note the swabs I have in the repair business. Again, I got them aboard for this only or if needed elsewhere.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/sh42007-03-2921-24-17-93.jpg

Now, I could have continued on to port like this. Provided I was not attacked again and getting hit. But I was in testing mode at this point and decided to go to periscope depth. As noted before the bulk head was just about dead even though it was patched up as best possible. It was too far gone and started to crush as I submerged. There was no hope. I pressed on for blowing ballast. I came up some but it was not enough. Down I went. Please note the time it took to repair. Just about all morning.


Before you leave port recruite some grunts to do the damage control. With time maybe they will get more proficient. Damage control works if you handle it properly. The dark red is the damaged parts and the very dark red vertical lines mean very bad depending on how high they go. Repair priority is set in the box in the middle. Click it and it will turn a darker red. Repairs will begin. Always fix pumps to get the water out first and then the bulkheads. Repair times are longer in SH4 than SH3. Not all repairs will last as you can see. I could have motored home on the surface but just periscope depth sent me to the bottom. Your the captain so make you best guess after a beating like this.

I hope this helps.

[tater]

Nice post.

I think that many people complaining about the DC think that once fixed by a DC party, it's good as new. I'd be surprised if that was the case. It's like Il-2: if you get hit by enemy fire enough to leak or at all compromise the aerodynamics of the plane---GO HOME. RTB. Run. The same is true of subs. If a distant DC bangs you up a little, by all means continue the patrol. OTOH, if you take the kind of damage you clearly took, even if repaired discretion would say to RTB. Anyone who thinks at sea DC is any kind of definitive repair deserves the sinking they will likely get IMO.

[Jungman]

If repairing the bulkhead has no effect then why even allow it to be repaired?

Would it not be better to just let it display the damage so you know how bad that compartment is?

I read that you cannot pump out at room unless the bulkhead is repaired first. Is this true? This would compound the problem.

[Tobowsi]

Nice post with screenies. I ended up doing what you've done and got a DC crew in port as well.

The problem I have with DC is that in my experience/testing, it seems that once any bulkhead is damaged, submerging even to periscope death results in loss of the sub, even after you're told the bulkhead is repaired and "pressure hull intact". You also get the impression everything is no longer damaged.

When something is destroyed, it stays full red and doesn't show up in the repair box below, because you can't do anything to fix it. (They did that correctly.) You know you don't have it anymore. However, when any bulkhead is repaired, even if there are others still needing to be worked on, you get a message saying "pressure hull intact". Then the bulkhead icon becomes the normal color with no red damage bar. It's natural to assume at that point that the item is repaired.

If they can't fix something "good as new", maybe they should tell you that. Have the icon become yellow to indicate the item is repaired as well as possible underway but still damaged and needs to be repaired in port.

It's also plain stupid to tell you textually and verbally "pressure hull intact" and as soon as you submerge even to PD, you hear "we have flooding" and you sink like a rock.

If you've taken on damage, maybe a crewman should tell you a maximum recommended depth, or suggest you don't dive at all, but don't tell us everything is repaired and that the pressure hull is intact if they're not.

I like how things aren't instantly fixed like before and you can prioritize the repairs, but it'd be nice if they'd tell you they can't do any more repair to an item (lack of tools, parts, etc). If you put your mouse over the damage bar for an item, you see a decimal value, but it'd be nice if the repair crew could give you an estimate on repair times to help you prioritize.

I can certainly understand items only being repaired to a point and agree with that in theory, but I think that should be indicated on the damage screen. I just don't think a glance at the damage screen should tell you the sub is structurally sound and as soon as you expose it to around 3 atm of pressure at PD, you take on flooding and end up losing the sub.

[Rip]

If repairing the bulkhead has no effect then why even allow it to be repaired?

Would it not be better to just let it display the damage so you know how bad that compartment is?

I read that you cannot pump out at room unless the bulkhead is repaired first. Is this true? This would compound the problem.

I would guess the repairs are only temp emergency repairs to stop the water coming in. That doesn't mean it will hold up under pressure. I kind of like this. maybe they will be able to implement some realism settings for it. It would be nice to have some variety as to how much pressure it takes to cause the emergency repairs to fail. It would even be cool to me for any system that has been seriously damaged and repaired might have an increaded cjance of failing again or being destroyed if stricken again.

[tater]

Almost no field repair would be "good as new." It would still be useful to let you know in case you saved a campaign, and forgot about it for a while I guess.In the meantime, If I have a tough scrape I'm gonna not be greedy and RTB. Worst case you "refit" (assuming that resets all damage to "good as new").

tater

[DeePsix501]

I played some multiplayer with Devilthorn earlier and he took some Depth charges across the bow causing some serious flooding. He managed to repair it and surface but as soon as he dived again he lost control and down she went. Very real and very cool. Gives you the feeling of limping home in a bomber with one engine.

Does the dmg control sleep when not on duty or are they always getting fatigued. Usualy I take the watch crew and put them on dmg control because under water they arent doing anything.

[Tobowsi]

Does the dmg control sleep when not on duty or are they always getting fatigued.

I've seen them sleep when they're not on duty. They also seem to gain experience even when they're not on duty as well. I guess they tinker and do basic maintenance when you're not telling them to help save the boat.

[DeePsix501]

Alrighty then, I guess i'll fill up the Damage Control team! I thought they would not sleep and get fatigued but I was wrong

[ccruner13]

but the emergency repairs dont just fail its the entire sub. ive taken bulkhead damage and submerged before actually multiple had damage. but then other times only one will take damage and i cant go under atall. it would make sense that perhaps your aft torpedo room would flood again but why would the whole sub?
in my last career go i shot myself with a torpedo :damn: while i was in enemy harbor...so where i was at in depth i stayed but my front end tilted down to the ground. i blew balast and my tail surfaced then a blew a few more and i went all the way up. deckguned what i could see then took off for home. it was stormy as hell so the two destroyers nearby couldnt see me...somehow i was being pinged the whole time too? heh but...my damage was so severe i could only go 11 kts and only made it about halfway from japan to midway and 63% fuel. i tried to go at 1 kt but it only gave me estimate of 400nm

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o49/borschwanger/SH4Img29-3-2007_22.jpg

how i was floating ill never know. i actually got jumped by a bomber and shot him down before he got to me lol. then i couldnt make it home so i tried to submerge my hundreds place looked like a 1/10 second place on a digital timer and hit the seafloor at 1623 ft somehow :rotfl:

[bookworm_020]

That picture is kinda creepy:huh:, Looking into a sub from the outside is not a pleasent experience. Unless the sub happens to be an enemy!!

[tater]

Is a fuel leak not modeled? Not that it would matter for players since the batteries recharge without engines on, right?

[ccruner13]

aye. too bad i blew up my battery with that torpedo...couldnt submerge anyway but yea. fuel leaks in several seconds when you are get destroyed and all your crap is blowing up. one time i sat around for a little bit outside midway not using any engines and my fuel went down from 99-97 too? if only i could have radioed in for a tow or some gojuice

[Jungman]

The DC model has something in common from SH3. In SH3 if one compartment became 100% flooded, it was considered destroyed and all inside die in tha compartment and the whole sub is destroyed.

In SH4, I took an air bomb in the Aft Torpedo Room. My Aft Torpedo Room Bulkhead was destoyed 100% and flooded 100% while I was on the surface the whole time.

To my amazement, the crew in the aft were only wounded, but they would not fix anything. The DC team was able to fix a ASFAIK 100% red destroyed bulkhead completely. Then they pumped out the 100% full water. I was even able to transfer men in and out of that Room even though it was 100% flooded!

Anyway, after all my repairs indicated I was completely back to new shape. I order periscope depth and the rear end sunk like a rock with my front end sticking way up in the air as if the aft torpedo room was really still 100% flooded and weight down instantly.

This occurs immediately at soon as I started a slow dive at zero speed a few feet down into the water.
-------------
Does this also happen with just a small amount of damage to any BulKhead damage? I could see it would reduce overall hull integrity and ability to go deep; but one scratch and the whole submarine sinks like a rock as soon as you dive a few feet??

Edit:

AVGWarhawk: In your picture above with the Bulkhead completely repaired, your Aft Torpedo Room is still displaying 100% flooded (blue color). So that would tell you that if you dive like that, your rear end is going to pull you down to the bottom from the water weight?

[Tat2demon]

I had almost the exact same situation yesterday as the OP.

I got absolutly hosed after losing my patience wating for destroyers to leave after I crippled a couple merchants. I tried to stay submerged but two of my targets were slowly getting away and the destroyers just wouldnt give up.

As soon as one of them passed over me I ordered flank speed and an emergency blow. As soon as I surfaced I manned the deck gun and started firing explosive rounds near the stern areas. Its funny how fast they go down when you hit their DCs. :P

Anyway, I was able to take down 3 destroyers and 5 assorted merchants with a mix of torpedoes and my trusty deck gun. Needless to say I was prety messed up at the end.

My Damage Control team did a wonderfull job, but my aft torpedo room was flooded. As soon as I would start a dive the stern would start sinking very fast. The only way to stay afloat was to run flank speed.

Over the coarse of about 3 days the aft torpedo room slowly got pumped out. It wasnt until it was about 70% dry that I was able to dive again.

It was quite a fun 3 days constantly shooting down Jap aircraft while the pumps did their work.

Moral of the story, Dont dive with water in your aft!

Oh, and learn to love your Damage Control Team. I always have it full with as many repair skilled men as I can get.

[fullmetaledges]

I noticed the same thing. i waited until the room was pumped dry and I ordered p-scope depth, I sank to 120ft and then came back up to p-scope depth I was amazed.

[ccruner13]

repair skill? i didnt see a repair skill. i guessed mechanical types would be the best DC team qualified but i cant get my green bar very full

[Tat2demon]

Yeh mechanical is what I meant. The guys with the two crossed hammers. I dont know if it makes much difference but it makes me feel better. :P

[perisher]

What to fix first? Pumps or bulkhead?
Speaking as someone who was trained (by the RN) in damage control; if the flooding is relatively minor, and within the scope of the pumps to counteract, then get the pumps going, but once the capability of the pump is exceeded, fixing the bulkhead becomes the priority. Of course, in real life you would assign men to both tasks simultaneously.
As for who to use in DC, Royal Navy practice is for EVERYONE to have basic DC training and for engine room ratings to have advanced DC training. I was not a submariner but I am sure all submariners get extra DC training.

[walsh2509]

I moved all my DC crew out as I was told they don't sleep and there fitness level "were" always low when I checked.

Now you say it took all moring to fix the repairs? well I had my DC filled with officer and guys with high renown, the level green bar was about half way up. I had the damaged sections in the box and like you I had the one I wanted fixed first clicked and it was like the pic a darker red than the others.

I was on the surface all that was wrong was there was some damage to 2 torpdepo tube, I ran CT forward for 2 days nothing still the same damage and percent of damage did not do down. I then rested them all, and only TC forward for 8hrs at a time, after 8 hrs I looked and it was still the same. So I changed the crew that were really tired with fresh crew, still nothing after 16hrs.

Yes I had the green DC on in the toolbar.

I went back to MW, was soon as I was close enough I got the Refit Dock option, I hit refit. Tubes repaired Sir! as soon as I left the zone that triggers the option popup, about 10/20km from the docks at MW, I get the shout that 2 Torp tubes are danaged. I got to PH to see if it will be fixed there, same as MW and soon as I get close enough I hit the Refit, as with MW I get the call that the tubes are fixed. As soon as I level the popup refit menu zone I get the call that the tubes are damaged again.

I dock at PH ending my mission and the tubes get fixed.


Now as for the DC sleeping , when I move the crew back to there own areas, the zzzzz fell asleep, I was moving them one by one, it wasn't until I took no7 and put him back into his own section were he fell asleep, did the remaining 3 left in the DC team bar fall asleep, I didn't need to move them back.

[fullmetaledges]

I decided not to go out with a dedicated DC and gun crew as I feel that it isn't realistic

[Floyd]

I decided not to go out with a dedicated DC and gun crew as I feel that it isn't realistic

I think it's ok to have crew members specialized to guns, but they should do
other work (in other compartments) as well.

Theoretically one can fill all slots with crew members.
The problem with this strategy is that you have no "room" left to shuffle
crew members around if a compartment gets flooded. Assuming
one will have some time - depends on the damage - to move the guys to
the DC, you can save their lives. What i would like to know is if the number
of crew members makes a difference to the CO2 level - more members,
no air to breath in a shorter time.

[AVGWarhawk]

I decided not to go out with a dedicated DC and gun crew as I feel that it isn't realistic
We can not "feel" what we think is correct, we must take a look at the books on it. The DVD that came with the game displayed that a sub was crewed by 70 men. Currently, my screenshot of the crew I'm 5 men over 70. I should remove 5 men. This will still leave my smaller crew of repairs only. Perhaps this is more realistic:hmm: Move some of the other men into repairs when needed.

There was dedicated gun crews as well.

[AVGWarhawk]

If repairing the bulkhead has no effect then why even allow it to be repaired?

Would it not be better to just let it display the damage so you know how bad that compartment is?

I read that you cannot pump out at room unless the bulkhead is repaired first. Is this true? This would compound the problem.
If a bulkhead is damaged, flooding can be stopped through repairs. In no way shape or form is the bulkhead a strong as when first fabricated. Therefore, taking a dive is at your own risk, but flooding is stopped and you can get underway. At this point the party is over and time to return to port.

[AVGWarhawk]

Does the dmg control sleep when not on duty or are they always getting fatigued.
I've seen them sleep when they're not on duty. They also seem to gain experience even when they're not on duty as well. I guess they tinker and do basic maintenance when you're not telling them to help save the boat.

Yes, they do basic maintenance. If you are in the control room you will see them tinkering. If we are not at battle stations and no repairs needed I shut off the repair button. They go to rest then.

[AVGWarhawk]

The DC model has something in common from SH3. In SH3 if one compartment became 100% flooded, it was considered destroyed and all inside die in tha compartment and the whole sub is destroyed.

In SH4, I took an air bomb in the Aft Torpedo Room. My Aft Torpedo Room Bulkhead was destoyed 100% and flooded 100% while I was on the surface the whole time.

To my amazement, the crew in the aft were only wounded, but they would not fix anything. The DC team was able to fix a ASFAIK 100% red destroyed bulkhead completely. Then they pumped out the 100% full water. I was even able to transfer men in and out of that Room even though it was 100% flooded!

Anyway, after all my repairs indicated I was completely back to new shape. I order periscope depth and the rear end sunk like a rock with my front end sticking way up in the air as if the aft torpedo room was really still 100% flooded and weight down instantly.

This occurs immediately at soon as I started a slow dive at zero speed a few feet down into the water.
-------------
Does this also happen with just a small amount of damage to any BulKhead damage? I could see it would reduce overall hull integrity and ability to go deep; but one scratch and the whole submarine sinks like a rock as soon as you dive a few feet??

Edit:

AVGWarhawk: In your picture above with the Bulkhead completely repaired, your Aft Torpedo Room is still displaying 100% flooded (blue color). So that would tell you that if you dive like that, your rear end is going to pull you down to the bottom from the water weight?


Awww man, I totally missed that blue color! Great spot! I did not realize or see the blue at all. Great find dude:up::up::up:

[fullmetaledges]

I decided not to go out with a dedicated DC and gun crew as I feel that it isn't realistic
We can not "feel" what we think is correct, we must take a look at the books on it. The DVD that came with the game displayed that a sub was crewed by 70 men. Currently, my screenshot of the crew I'm 5 men over 70. I should remove 5 men. This will still leave my smaller crew of repairs only. Perhaps this is more realistic:hmm: Move some of the other men into repairs when needed.

There was dedicated gun crews as well.
I realize that there were DC teams and gun crews but what I meant was that they wern't always on the guns or doing damage control so thats why i decided to leave those areas blank, plus if you take damage to your gun from dc's your crew gets injusred if they are in the gun slot

[AVGWarhawk]

I decided not to go out with a dedicated DC and gun crew as I feel that it isn't realistic
We can not "feel" what we think is correct, we must take a look at the books on it. The DVD that came with the game displayed that a sub was crewed by 70 men. Currently, my screenshot of the crew I'm 5 men over 70. I should remove 5 men. This will still leave my smaller crew of repairs only. Perhaps this is more realistic:hmm: Move some of the other men into repairs when needed.

There was dedicated gun crews as well.
I realize that there were DC teams and gun crews but what I meant was that they wern't always on the guns or doing damage control so thats why i decided to leave those areas blank, plus if you take damage to your gun from dc's your crew gets injusred if they are in the gun slot
Gotcha! I kept my men on the guns as I was surfaced and fair game for the planes.

You know, I did not think of this. A PBY (with British marking) flew over. I was not sure if friend or foe at the time so I fired. It fired back naturally and flew off. It came back again, now mind you I send a report on my condition, perhaps he was returning to rescue me and the crew??????????? Hmmmmmmmmmm.............

[letterboy1]

I moved all my DC crew out as I was told they don't sleep and there fitness level "were" always low when I checked.

Now you say it took all moring to fix the repairs? well I had my DC filled with officer and guys with high renown, the level green bar was about half way up. I had the damaged sections in the box and like you I had the one I wanted fixed first clicked and it was like the pic a darker red than the others.

I was on the surface all that was wrong was there was some damage to 2 torpdepo tube, I ran CT forward for 2 days nothing still the same damage and percent of damage did not do down. I then rested them all, and only TC forward for 8hrs at a time, after 8 hrs I looked and it was still the same. So I changed the crew that were really tired with fresh crew, still nothing after 16hrs.

Yes I had the green DC on in the toolbar.

I went back to MW, was soon as I was close enough I got the Refit Dock option, I hit refit. Tubes repaired Sir! as soon as I left the zone that triggers the option popup, about 10/20km from the docks at MW, I get the shout that 2 Torp tubes are danaged. I got to PH to see if it will be fixed there, same as MW and soon as I get close enough I hit the Refit, as with MW I get the call that the tubes are fixed. As soon as I level the popup refit menu zone I get the call that the tubes are damaged again.

I dock at PH ending my mission and the tubes get fixed.


Now as for the DC sleeping , when I move the crew back to there own areas, the zzzzz fell asleep, I was moving them one by one, it wasn't until I took no7 and put him back into his own section were he fell asleep, did the remaining 3 left in the DC team bar fall asleep, I didn't need to move them back.

Same here! The only difference is that it was both my scopes, deck gun and AA that were repaired during refit at Midway. Those exact same damages recurred suddenly while heading off. I tried the refit again with the same results. I'd hate to go to Pearl because I want to go to my secondary objective first. Sigh.

[quadraspleen]

So, is it possible to *remove* something from the DC queue to enable faster fixing of other stuff?

I notice many things at once will have the little bars on depicting it being fixed, but there are some things that you may not want fixed until that large hole in the aft bulkhead is repaired FAST. :doh:

Can you stop things from being repaired until such time as you want to release the manpower from other tasks, or am I being a bit too wishful...?

[AVGWarhawk]

So, is it possible to *remove* something from the DC queue to enable faster fixing of other stuff?

I notice many things at once will have the little bars on depicting it being fixed, but there are some things that you may not want fixed until that large hole in the aft bulkhead is repaired FAST. :doh:

Can you stop things from being repaired until such time as you want to release the manpower from other tasks, or am I being a bit too wishful...?

Yes, set up your men in the repair boxes. Look to the left and you will see the list of damaged items. On top it says priority repairs. Click the one you want done first and it will turn a darker red. I have the pumps done first if damaged then the bulkheads after that.

[Stryker412]

I hope they implement some sort of realism setting for DC. As a casual gamer I really liked SH3 where I would click the DC button and a team was auto assigned to the task. However, I do like the added flexibility of being able to fix individual damaged equipment.

[quadraspleen]

Yes, set up your men in the repair boxes. Look to the left and you will see the list of damaged items. On top it says priority repairs. Click the one you want done first and it will turn a darker red. I have the pumps done first if damaged then the bulkheads after that.

You mean the repair priority list? I have got my head round that, but is it possible to actually remove something from that list?

I'm guessing that, despite priority, everything is being fixed at the same time, with more men taking the higher priority?

I want to actually stop something from being in that list. Like the bloody decoys! They shouldn't even be there, from what I can gather...

[U-Bones]

Yes, set up your men in the repair boxes. Look to the left and you will see the list of damaged items. On top it says priority repairs. Click the one you want done first and it will turn a darker red. I have the pumps done first if damaged then the bulkheads after that.
You mean the repair priority list? I have got my head round that, but is it possible to actually remove something from that list?

I'm guessing that, despite priority, everything is being fixed at the same time, with more men taking the higher priority?

I want to actually stop something from being in that list. Like the bloody decoys! They shouldn't even be there, from what I can gather...


Agree, I would like to remove diesels if submerged (till later).

I would actually like the queue to become a list of 1-3 items you want the crew to work on. If the whole crew is on one item, fast repairs, x2 or x3 if the crew is split to two or three tasks.

But simply removing items would be my 2nd choice :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, set up your men in the repair boxes. Look to the left and you will see the list of damaged items. On top it says priority repairs. Click the one you want done first and it will turn a darker red. I have the pumps done first if damaged then the bulkheads after that.
You mean the repair priority list? I have got my head round that, but is it possible to actually remove something from that list?

I'm guessing that, despite priority, everything is being fixed at the same time, with more men taking the higher priority?

I want to actually stop something from being in that list. Like the bloody decoys! They shouldn't even be there, from what I can gather...
Yes, repair priority list. You can not remove any of them because they still need repair. To make a repair priority, left click the one you want and it will turn a darker red indicating the repairs are started on the particular system you clicked on. After that, the repairs will continue down the list in order if you do let it go on it's own.

As U-bone stated, submerged, why fix the diesels if the electric motors are damaged? Slide down you priority list and find electric motors, left click, turns a darker red and repairs begin. Soon that will disappear off the list and then move on to the next important system needed to sustain control and life. Remember, it take some time to repair. My repairs last night started at 0930 and ended at 1230. Much longer than SH3.

[walsh2509]

what about the repair time it shows you, as I have said in my post, I got a repair time of 45mins. I moved all my best men into the DC crew and the green bar was near half way up. I had the torpedo tube clicked "darker red" for priority and I had the DC working Green light in toolbar, but after 6hrs it was still showing 45min repair time.


I don't think I was going anything wrong and had it set up, in fact when I was in the Control Room even though there was nothing wrong on any of the CR sections all were Green, I seen a couple of guys working away with spanners turing or tightening bolts.

unless just clicking the DC crews icon to green does that, I take it the crew were working on the Tube damage, but after 6hrs for a 45min job, on the surface the damage and repair time were still the exact same as it was 6hrs before, I replaced some of the really tired DC crew with fresher men and gave it another 6hrs. 12hrs in total for a 45mins job and no change.

??

Was I doing something wrong ?

[AVGWarhawk]

what about the repair time it shows you, as I have said in my post, I got a repair time of 45mins. I moved all my best men into the DC crew and the green bar was near half way up. I had the torpedo tube clicked "darker red" for priority and I had the DC working Green light in toolbar, but after 6hrs it was still showing 45min repair time.


I don't think I was going anything wrong and had it set up, in fact when I was in the Control Room even though there was nothing wrong on any of the CR sections all were Green, I seen a couple of guys working away with spanners turing or tightening bolts.

unless just clicking the DC crews icon to green does that, I take it the crew were working on the Tube damage, but after 6hrs for a 45min job, on the surface the damage and repair time were still the exact same as it was 6hrs before, I replaced some of the really tired DC crew with fresher men and gave it another 6hrs. 12hrs in total for a 45mins job and no change.

??

Was I doing something wrong ?
I believe the time for repairs is buggy at best. My last night repairs took three hours. I never did see any of the time to repair pop ups actually pop up so to me that is another buggy deal. At best, I believe is a system shows heavy damage expect at least an hour. Just speculation on my part here. Sometimes I guess things can not be repair or do not show as repaired but work. My cannon does this. It might be the same for your forward tubes. I was, however, able to repair and that is the main thing. It was nice I got whacked by a plane so I could start to play with the damage control screen. I like it despite it's shortcomings on some things.

I would have attempted to see if the tubes would open. Perhaps they were repaired but the bug again, shows otherwise.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice post:up:

[walsh2509]

I never did see any of the time to repair pop ups actually pop up so to me that is another buggy deal.


....

That seems to be a problem, in page 2 when you run your cursor over the tubes on the left of the screen you get no repair time or damage, same with the item in the prioruty box, the only thing you see there against the red bar on the right of damaged items is a number. The one I posted was for my Deck Gun and that read 0.051 what ever that was supposed to be?

Where I got the repair time and damage report was on Page 1 "crew" the word Deck Gun marks the boxes where you place your gun crew, that was red. When I put my cursor over it , that gave me a repair time and damage report as in % of damage to the gun. But I didn't notice the headings for Aft Torp Room top left of the crew page turning red, so as far as I can see for now, the only place where you get a report of damage and repair time is for the guns is on page 1 the crew page.

That should be also on page 2 , when you place your cursor over the damaged items in the priority box. Another thing they should add or if it is there already they need to get working is a reoprt when DC team can't fix whatever is damage and it needs a return to port.

At the moment as I am sure you know , when you go in for a REFIT you get the call from the crew that damage is repaired. Only thing is, when you move out X.amount of Km from the base you get a call from the crew that the damage is back again.

[AVGWarhawk]

@Walsh

Yes the damage control is buggy for sure but functionality is there. Hopefully the next patch will sort some of it out.

[letterboy1]

@Walsh

Yes the damage control is buggy for sure but functionality is there. Hopefully the next patch will sort some of it out.

Except when damage is controlled in a refit and it magically reappears. It has me unable to play because both my periscopes and guns are destroyed. Oh well, I might have to forego my secondary objective and head back to Pearl.

[AVGWarhawk]

@Walsh

Yes the damage control is buggy for sure but functionality is there. Hopefully the next patch will sort some of it out.

Except when damage is controlled in a refit and it magically reappears. It has me unable to play because both my periscopes and guns are destroyed. Oh well, I might have to forego my secondary objective and head back to Pearl.


I made a refit at Manila. I added a two barrel AA gun. Drops off extra crew that did not belong. I started up again without issue but I notice my 3D wake gone. Then it said flak gun damaged but then again it always says this. This time I experienced my first CTD with the stadimeter. I reloaded the game and it auto saves at port so I restarted. This time my 3D wave back and no CTD with stadimeter. I recommend after this first encounter shutting down the game and restart at your port you just refitted and the game autosaved on. That is my take on it anyway with what I experienced concerning refit.

[letterboy1]

@Walsh

Yes the damage control is buggy for sure but functionality is there. Hopefully the next patch will sort some of it out.

Except when damage is controlled in a refit and it magically reappears. It has me unable to play because both my periscopes and guns are destroyed. Oh well, I might have to forego my secondary objective and head back to Pearl.


I made a refit at Manila. I added a two barrel AA gun. Drops off extra crew that did not belong. I started up again without issue but I notice my 3D wake gone. Then it said flak gun damaged but then again it always says this. This time I experienced my first CTD with the stadimeter. I reloaded the game and it auto saves at port so I restarted. This time my 3D wave back and no CTD with stadimeter. I recommend after this first encounter shutting down the game and restart at your port you just refitted and the game autosaved on. That is my take on it anyway with what I experienced concerning refit.

Thanks. Will try the auto save option.

[horrgakx]

Your crew in shades of red - what does that mean?

The issue I had with damage was that the crew didn't seem to be doing anything. I had the repair stations crewed, wasn't on silent running, the button for repairs was in, but I ran from Japan back to Pearl Harbour on the surface and they'd still not fixed my guns etc. by the time I got back.


Dave

[Camaero]

Great post AVG!

horrgakx:
The crew in shades of red mean that they are injured or dead, depending on how red the icon is. To check their health, click on the crew member and look for the read out in the information box. If it says Health 0/100 then that guy has bought the farm.:dead:

[Capt.LoneRanger]

It is important to have a good DC-team. With the few pixels of green bar on the original posters screenies, it simply takes too long to repair. Officers with their better experience and skills have a great impact on the DC-crews, even if they have no specialities in this area and they and the crew in the section keep repairing the damage, if they are skilled enough, even if the section is allready flooded 100%.

If you're so badly damaged you start to sink, try to use the engines to either push or pull you to surface as long as possible.

I once took several hits in the bow section from a Battleship during a surface engagement. It ran full of water, before I could repair it, but the crew still kept fixing it, even when it went below the surface. The sinking of the bow lifted my screws above the water, so I was a sitting duck - but I had the BB gunned (!) down so badly, it was sinking to the other side, so he couldn't hit me.
After an hour the leak was fixed and my brave fish-crew started repairs on the torpedo-tubes. It took another 3-4 hours, then the bow-section was dry again. :88)

[Camaero]

It is important to have a good DC-team. With the few pixels of green bar on the original posters screenies, it simply takes too long to repair. Officers with their better experience and skills have a great impact on the DC-crews, even if they have no specialities in this area and they and the crew in the section keep repairing the damage, if they are skilled enough, even if the section is allready flooded 100%.

If you're so badly damaged you start to sink, try to use the engines to either push or pull you to surface as long as possible.

I once took several hits in the bow section from a Battleship during a surface engagement. It ran full of water, before I could repair it, but the crew still kept fixing it, even when it went below the surface. The sinking of the bow lifted my screws above the water, so I was a sitting duck - but I had the BB gunned (!) down so badly, it was sinking to the other side, so he couldn't hit me.
After an hour the leak was fixed and my brave fish-crew started repairs on the torpedo-tubes. It took another 3-4 hours, then the bow-section was dry again. :88)

Sounds exciting! I think 95% of the complaints everyone has is just them not knowing how certain fuctions work. Granted the games manual does little to explain a lot of this stuff, but still some people have freaked out way too quick just because the game is not exactly like SHIII. I include myself in that list.

[Snowman999]

Except when damage is controlled in a refit and it magically reappears. It has me unable to play because both my periscopes and guns are destroyed. Oh well, I might have to forego my secondary objective and head back to Pearl.


I only have experience with Midway, but a refit isn't a refit in real-world terms--it's just fuel.

Left Midway two days after the battle in June 1942. Japanese carriers all sunk two days ago, so of course I got bombed by Zeros while in TC, twenty miles from the island. Small damage to multiple components, bulhead damage on after TR, flooding about 25%. Got it stopped, repaired everything, went to PD, started to sink stern first. Three blows and got back to surface, turned around, headed for Midway.

Took "Refit" choice, turned for Japan again. (Note: after refit whole crew on watch but not at Battlestations. Did not set a watch until I went to BS, and came off. Also, occassionally, SH4 seems to repeat SH3's habit of setting the whole watch section except for the OOD. Have had to drag him away and manually put him back in his slot to get him onto the bridge.)

Running for Japan on surface, no damage showing, post-refit. Went to PD. Sank stern first. Went to flank, no engines. Confirmed with outside look that props not turning. Did not blow this time. Was at 1448 feet whn all died.

I agree with others that DC is semi-porked. A DC-repaired bulkhead ought to allow PD pressures. It amounts to a strong kick; not a lot of external force. Regardless, PD should not allow a repaired bulkhead to fail so catostrophically that fatal flooding occurs in ten seconds.

[SteamWake]

I had a similar situation except it was the bow torpedo room that was damaged.

I took a bit different tack and repaired the bulkhead first (firguring Id stop the flooding), and then the pumps... to hopefully remove the water that came in from the damaged bulkhead.

Problem is the pumps dont seem to do anything (yes I was surfaced). The water remained and she eventualy slipped beneath the surface in an uncontrollable dive.

Has anyone see the pumps do anything ?

[U-Bones]

I had a similar situation except it was the bow torpedo room that was damaged.

I took a bit different tack and repaired the bulkhead first (firguring Id stop the flooding), and then the pumps... to hopefully remove the water that came in from the damaged bulkhead.

Problem is the pumps dont seem to do anything (yes I was surfaced). The water remained and she eventualy slipped beneath the surface in an uncontrollable dive.

Has anyone see the pumps do anything ?

If you can repair the compartment and stop the leaks, yes the pumps will dry out a flooded compartment - even if your batteries are at 0%.

[AVGWarhawk]

I had a similar situation except it was the bow torpedo room that was damaged.

I took a bit different tack and repaired the bulkhead first (firguring Id stop the flooding), and then the pumps... to hopefully remove the water that came in from the damaged bulkhead.

Problem is the pumps dont seem to do anything (yes I was surfaced). The water remained and she eventualy slipped beneath the surface in an uncontrollable dive.

Has anyone see the pumps do anything ?
If you can repair the compartment and stop the leaks, yes the pumps will dry out a flooded compartment - even if your batteries are at 0%.
Ok then....this brings us to the next question. If the pumps are working and the water is not being pumped out, is the damage to the compartment so bad(even though is shows repaired) that water will never be pumped out and submerging is instant death????? In other words, shows repaired yet water is not getting bumped out, therefore you are screwed and should head home?

I'm guessing it is:hmm:

[SteamWake]

I cant help but notice a whole lot of ambiguity going on here.

[AVGWarhawk]

I cant help but notice a whole lot of ambiguity going on here.

Not really, just trying to get into the developers heads and see what they believe is damage and how the system works in their minds. It certainly did not translate very well in the manual.

[fullmetaledges]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.

[AVGWarhawk]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.

Not seeing it as a complaint, I see your post as another piece of the puzzle we are attempting to put together here. Just one question, what was the crew status? Also, look at the brightside, at least you could submerge. Did you try it again or just stayed on the surface?

[Snowman999]

I cant help but notice a whole lot of ambiguity going on here.

Not really, just trying to get into the developers heads and see what they believe is damage and how the system works in their minds. It certainly did not translate very well in the manual.

I vote for ambiguity. <g>

A bulkhead is internal; it's welded to the pressure hull, but there can be a leak fore&aft through one that does not admit seawater. What we're seeing is a seawater leak after reported bulkhead damage--that must mean the pressure hull is open to the sea. IOW, the boat is NOT rigged for dive. That status is next to holy in the service, and the CO would be told instantly if the boat could no longer rig.

I'm all for damage that DC crews can't fix. That's realistic. But you must give me information so I can make proper tactical decisions. If I'm not watertight, tell me. I'll turn around. If my readouts show no damage I expect to be able to go to PD at least. That's around 50 PSI on the pressure hull at the keel. Nothing.

If repairs are going to only fix a percentage of the damage I think for game purposes you have to do the SH3 thing with hull % damage and let me make the call. Because right now there's damage after repairs sufficient enough to be leaking massive amounts of seawater, my crew doesn't seem to know, and neither do I.

As for the manual, I'm reminded of that joke about the two old women at the deli:

Woman 1: "The food here is TERRIBLE!"
Woman 2: "Yes, and such small portions!"

[fullmetaledges]

i saved it and went to sleep, so I can try it again. My crew was on a normal watch status with normal amounts of fatigue, as soon as I submerged I went to GQ

[Snowman999]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.

Same thing happened to me. Both electric motors (I refuse to call them engines) were damaged, one about 40% the other about 60%. Fixed them both completely. Also had Aft-TR flooding to 25% after bulkhead damage; fixed and dewatered. Went to PD, immediately, like in five seconds, began to sink stern first. Went to flank and would not answer bells on electric motors. External view showed neither prop turning. Sank to implosion.

[U-Bones]

When you get repaired, and are still on the surface, do a save and note the time. Later on, look at the upc files in the save and check out your true damage situation. It will be informative.

[AVGWarhawk]

[quote=SteamWake]I cant help but notice a whole lot of ambiguity going on here.

Not really, just trying to get into the developers heads and see what they believe is damage and how the system works in their minds. It certainly did not translate very well in the manual.


I vote for ambiguity. <g>

A bulkhead is internal; it's welded to the pressure hull, but there can be a leak fore&aft through one that does not admit seawater. What we're seeing is a seawater leak after reported bulkhead damage--that must mean the pressure hull is open to the sea. IOW, the boat is NOT rigged for dive. That status is next to holy in the service, and the CO would be told instantly if the boat could no longer rig.



Yes, the bulkhead is internal and makes up the structual integrity of the submarine. Once that integrity is compromised, the strength it once had is now gone. We see that the developers did not include hull damage, only bulkhead. Therefore, we have to assume this bulkhead damage encompesses the hull as well. We can only assume this. Yes, the Chief Engineer would report to the Skipper his feelings on diving is possible but again this is his professional estimation. Not really knowing for sure. With that said, we do not get the Chief Engineer. We only get ourselves. We have to make the best guess on it. If you look back at my screenshots my stern is completely filled with water. Does not seem to pumping out either. I can make by best guess that the sub is already out of trim and a dive is doom...and it was.

IMHO, if the bulkhead is severly damaged as see in my screenshot, chance are diving will not be a smart idea. Once it shows patched up, structually my sub is still toast. My trip home is on the surface.

[AVGWarhawk]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.

Same thing happened to me. Both electric motors (I refuse to call them engines) were damaged, one about 40% the other about 60%. Fixed them both completely. Also had Aft-TR flooding to 25% after bulkhead damage; fixed and dewatered. Went to PD, immediately, like in five seconds, began to sink stern first. Went to flank and would not answer bells on electric motors. External view showed neither prop turning. Sank to implosion.

We have to remember that the sub has hit points like the merchants. The sub hit points are diminished with damage. I'm not saying it is the best system to demonstrate damage and effects but it is all we have at the moment.

You are correct, the electric motors are just that, motors.:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

We have to look at damage like this: A direct hit on a submarine and it is pretty much finished. We can not believe the sub is as good as new after repairs. Hence refit if you can make port.

[fullmetaledges]

the problem isn't that the motors are damaged the problem is that the damage screen does not tell me this.

[-Pv-]

"I moved all my best men into the DC crew and the green bar was near half way up. I had the torpedo tube clicked "darker red" for priority and I had the DC working Green light in toolbar, but after 6hrs it was still showing 45min repair time."

I'm seeing some indication the assigned DC crew boosts repair, but dedicated ACTIVE compartment crew need to be in the damaged compartment for repairs to happen there. Compartments and the equipment located there emptied of crew don't appear to get repaired. This has a bearing on injured crew in a compartment also. I suspect a heavily damaged compartment is most efficiently repaired when healthy crew are ACTIVE in the compartment and DC has priority there. I'm wanting to test this theory more. As a part of this test, I also want to see if having battle stations engaged (so all the crew are activated) helps.
-Pv-

[AVGWarhawk]

"I moved all my best men into the DC crew and the green bar was near half way up. I had the torpedo tube clicked "darker red" for priority and I had the DC working Green light in toolbar, but after 6hrs it was still showing 45min repair time."

I'm seeing some indication the assigned DC crew boosts repair, but dedicated ACTIVE compartment crew need to be in the damaged compartment for repairs to happen there. Compartments and the equipment located there emptied of crew don't appear to get repaired. This has a bearing on injured crew in a compartment also. I suspect a heavily damaged compartment is most efficiently repaired when healthy crew are ACTIVE in the compartment and DC has priority there. I'm wanting to test this theory more. As a part of this test, I also want to see if having battle stations engaged (so all the crew are activated) helps.
-Pv-


:up: That is all we can do is test theories at this point because the manual has not have theories at all:nope:

Tonight I sunk a carrier at 16000 tons and a destroyer. I got an ash can on my head...bye bye sub :oops: No repairing a 600lb ash can directly on my deck:dead:

[fullmetaledges]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.

Same thing happened to me. Both electric motors (I refuse to call them engines) were damaged, one about 40% the other about 60%. Fixed them both completely. Also had Aft-TR flooding to 25% after bulkhead damage; fixed and dewatered. Went to PD, immediately, like in five seconds, began to sink stern first. Went to flank and would not answer bells on electric motors. External view showed neither prop turning. Sank to implosion.

We have to remember that the sub has hit points like the merchants. The sub hit points are diminished with damage. I'm not saying it is the best system to demonstrate damage and effects but it is all we have at the moment.

You are correct, the electric motors are just that, motors.:up:
when you repair does it increse the hitpoints again? I understand not to 100% but does it go up at all? That wouldn't explain things that were repaired not working still, if it's destroyed thats fine but tell me, don't display a blank damage screen if there are things that are destroyed

[Tarl]

Interesting thread, a good read. I had a similiar situation. was enrt back to Pearl (on the surface) half way to Midway from the Japanese coast.....two (2) bombers found me, took major damage to the front of the sub, forward torpedo room flooded....put the repair crew to work....my bow was awash and the stern was practically sticking out of the water....the props were almost not touching the water....still moving at about 10kts.

As time went on and repairs were completed (and I was notified in the message window) things started to settle down, the bow started to come back to a more normal attitude and the stern sank back into the water...however, the bow was still low.

Speed now up to 14kts, another aircraft spotted me, things looked repaired...decided to try to dive to periscope depth, mistake......the sub started to sink beneath the waves, and started to nose dive straight down....emergency surface....no GO. I'm headed to the bottom.

:( a sobering experience.

[SteamWake]

Heres a new one.

Got bombed again and flooded the foward torpedo room.

Again repaired the bulkhead and pumps but again the water would not leave the boat.

The flooding was so bad it lifted the stern out of the water to the point where the screws were out of the water. Rear up in the air at about a 30 degree angle.

Curiously enough we could still make some headway a couple of knots but another bomber came and finished the job. We had no guns and dident dare dive. They payed no attention to our waving a surrender flag.

[Snowman999]

Yes, the bulkhead is internal and makes up the structual integrity of the submarine.

Adds to it, yes. The pressure hull is far stronger; it's a cylinder for a reason.

Once that integrity is compromised, the strength it once had is now gone.

It's hard to imagine how a bulkhead could be compromised to the point that the pressure hull fails without the PH being breeched. That is an easy visual check by th ecrew, either internally or externally. The amount of water needed to flood the after-TR in five seconds is tons per second . . .

We see that the developers did not include hull damage, only bulkhead. Therefore, we have to assume this bulkhead damage encompesses the hull as well.

OK, fine. All I'm saying is TELL me what it is, even an estimate. Submarine officers all usually had Academy engineering degrees. They can asses damage.

We can only assume this. Yes, the Chief Engineer would report to the Skipper his feelings on diving is possible but again this is his professional estimation.

No, he'd report that the TR was leaking like a seive, which it would be after pressure hull penetration and emergency DC. Subs don't carry welding rigs, staging, etc. Patches were of the canvas-and-sh0oring variety. A breeched pressure hull would make the boat un-divable short of drydocking. But we aren't told that. We're given "repairs completed" and no further clues.


Not really knowing for sure. With that said, we do not get the Chief Engineer. We only get ourselves. We have to make the best guess on it. If you look back at my screenshots my stern is completely filled with water. Does not seem to pumping out either. I can make by best guess that the sub is already out of trim and a dive is doom...and it was.


In my case there was no external damage showing. My TR flooded (by the blue bar) to a max of 25%. It was dry (no blue) when I dived. I had been told repairs were completed. Yet I flooded and sank in five seconds. This isn't possible to defend IMO as a design decision. I don't think it's a design decision.

That also doesn't explain why my electric motors, also damaged and reported repaired, failed on the dive and would not run at any speed.

[AVGWarhawk]

last night I had bulkhead damage and yes I know how to use the DC team, I stayed on the surface until everything was repaired and set a course for home. Just for kicks I decided to submerge and when I did so, as soon as my diesels cut off my screws stopped, I blew the ballast and at around 150ft the boat started to rise again and go to the surface. When I got to the surface the diesels started and I began moving again. My point here is once you take damage and repair it, not just the crush depth and bulkheads are changed but the whole damage system seems to take a crap. I had a clear damage screen but my electric engines wern't working? That is not a case of my stupididty and I'm not just complaning to complain, it's something that needs to be fixed.
Same thing happened to me. Both electric motors (I refuse to call them engines) were damaged, one about 40% the other about 60%. Fixed them both completely. Also had Aft-TR flooding to 25% after bulkhead damage; fixed and dewatered. Went to PD, immediately, like in five seconds, began to sink stern first. Went to flank and would not answer bells on electric motors. External view showed neither prop turning. Sank to implosion.
We have to remember that the sub has hit points like the merchants. The sub hit points are diminished with damage. I'm not saying it is the best system to demonstrate damage and effects but it is all we have at the moment.

You are correct, the electric motors are just that, motors.:up: when you repair does it increse the hitpoints again? I understand not to 100% but does it go up at all? That wouldn't explain things that were repaired not working still, if it's destroyed thats fine but tell me, don't display a blank damage screen if there are things that are destroyed

No I do not believe you get the hit points back for repairs. This is something the modders have to look into. I'm no good at that.

[Snowman999]

the problem isn't that the motors are damaged the problem is that the damage screen does not tell me this.


Bingo.

And that a "refit" isn't a refit--it's fuel and wepaons. A refit ends when the boat can dive to test depth. There's a test dive at the sea trial phase of any refit. I sank becuase my "refit" at Midway fixed nothing.

[AVGWarhawk]

We can only assume this. Yes, the Chief Engineer would report to the Skipper his feelings on diving is possible but again this is his professional estimation.
No, he'd report that the TR was leaking like a seive, which it would be after pressure hull penetration and emergency DC. Subs don't carry welding rigs, staging, etc. Patches were of the canvas-and-sh0oring variety. A breeched pressure hull would make the boat un-divable short of drydocking. But we aren't told that. We're given "repairs completed" and no further clues.

You answered everyone misunderstanding of damage, repairing damage and how good the repair is. No welding rigs, yes, they could arch weld with the batteries as the energy source but only limitedly. Yes a breeched hull spells doom for a dive. What do you mean you are not told that????? If there is flooding.....then you have been told. Come on, if your "bulkhead/hull" is almost completely red and hours to repair.....your screwed! No need to tell you this. Ok, the red bar is clear, they said repairs complete....did not say it is 100% head on down to 250 feet and see how see goes. You should no how it is going to go.....not well I can assure you.

Sorry fellas, I see it as a best guess....same as the engineer would tell you. If I see massive damage and hours to repair.....diving is not going to be my first choice.....run or fight it out. A percent meter in my view is bad. The reason I say this because it was a guess after damage was repaired how it would perform or last.....never a number involved.

[BlackSpot]

Good reply Hawk! The subs must have had very limited tools and spares to repair damage. I see repaired damage as a patch until you can get into port, especially when refering to hull integrity as it would be impossible to repair this externally.

[AVGWarhawk]

Good reply Hawk! The subs must have had very limited tools and spares to repair damage. I see repaired damage as a patch until you can get into port, especially when refering to hull integrity.

Exactly! But the argument is we are not told how bad.:o Hmmm....big red line, hours to repair.....this looks like I'm being told the game is over.:yep: You don't have to hit me over the head.

As far as the electric motors damaged and repaired but not working, I have to get into this situation before I can comment on it.

Anyway, the best way to repair your sub???????? Don't get damaged!!!!! Dive from planes, go deep to avoid DC!!!;)

[Snowman999]

Exactly! But the argument is we are not told how bad.:o Hmmm....big red line, hours to repair.....this looks like I'm being told the game is over.:yep: You don't have to hit me over the head.


We probably need to agree to disagree on this one. I think the game is evasive if it's designed as you say, especialy if it's aimed at the prototypical "casual gamer". That guy is gonna be pissed if he's told it's repaired yet he can't even go to PD for five seconds. Given the color-bar system in the DC screen it would be trivial to have a "repaired" component show a red bar or similar to give the player risk feedback. You simply shouldn't have to guess at game-ending damage based on visualk damage that may or may not show depending on your graphics selections. As I said, there was no flooding reported after repairs on the DC screen.


As far as the electric motors damaged and repaired but not working, I have to get into this situation before I can comment on it.


This is the issue that makes me think the bulkhead/PH damage issue is not coded to design either. A "repaired" motor that will not answer bells is not guesswork. No Engineer is going to report to the CO that main propulsion is repaired without testing it. Yet the DC scren again offers no feedback except an abscense of any red in the component box.

Aside--did you work at Mare Island? They built my boat in the early 60s.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exactly! But the argument is we are not told how bad.:o Hmmm....big red line, hours to repair.....this looks like I'm being told the game is over.:yep: You don't have to hit me over the head.

We probably need to agree to disagree on this one. I think the game is evasive if it's designed as you say, especialy if it's aimed at the prototypical "casual gamer". That guy is gonna be pissed if he's told it's repaired yet he can't even go to PD for five seconds. Given the color-bar system in the DC screen it would be trivial to have a "repaired" component show a red bar or similar to give the player risk feedback. You simply shouldn't have to guess at game-ending damage based on visualk damage that may or may not show depending on your graphics selections. As I said, there was no flooding reported after repairs on the DC screen.


As far as the electric motors damaged and repaired but not working, I have to get into this situation before I can comment on it.

This is the issue that makes me think the bulkhead/PH damage issue is not coded to design either. A "repaired" motor that will not answer bells is not guesswork. No Engineer is going to report to the CO that main propulsion is repaired without testing it. Yet the DC scren again offers no feedback except an abscense of any red in the component box.

Aside--did you work at Mare Island? They built my boat in the early 60s.

Fear not Snowman....I went through the same argument with SH3;). I was not a big fan of the meter there either. Each likes his own way to deal with the damage issue. Do I think the damage system is dead on? No way, but one has to use his imagination because real word and variables are just to numerous for a virtual world of submarines. Yes, damage needs a tweek. Maybe not a meter but perhaps a compartment or machinery shows repaired but still has a some red color in the column indicating it is not 100%. I can see your side of the argument for sure:yep:. Maybe a modder can make a change or two?

Mare Island? I never worked there. I have it as a sig in the spirit of SH4, US Submarines and Mare Island as a refit/building yard for the submarines. Kind of fitting for a damage thread:D

[horrgakx]

Is there an "Abandon Ship" option? There should be, it was always an option in real life (and is still practiced by sumbariners).

[AVGWarhawk]

Is there an "Abandon Ship" option? There should be, it was always an option in real life (and is still practiced by sumbariners).

No abandon ship:down:. But they did give us a little scenerio of the demise of the sub. It is better than the black screen that SH3 used.

[Torpex752]

I think after reading most of this thread that the concept of damage control vs repairs has to be understood.

Submarine Damage control is not intended to repair anything, its intended to stabilize whatever the casualty is. If its flooding, stop it by whatever means. Water in the boat, pump it out, or lighten the sub by whatever means. These stabilizing actions MUST occur in a few minutes. Taking 20 minutes to stick a Damage control wooden plug in a fractured pipe is beyond retarted. If I was there I'd throw the moron out of the way and jam it in is seconds! Remember this is damage control, its intended to STABILIZE, not REPAIR. So when you see the wooden shoring in place those were put there to hold a plug of some sort in place. Coming shallow is also a form of damage control as you reduce the water pressure to only 12psi! Now tell me that a 2" hole couldnt have a plug installed with only 12psi back pressure against it!

Submarine "At-Sea" repairs were not always perfect, however crews took EXCEPTIONAL pride and efforts in making repairs that were usualy capable of rivaling the tender repairs. I can tell you that any hull repair below the waterline is not going to be fixed next to a tender, but in a drydock. before the floating drydocks showed up in the pacific they had to head for Pearl or California. So repairs were conducted once you were safely away from the action and could take hours to repair.

The problem here is the mixture of the two and a misunderstanding of how a submarine works. UBI did not take the time or efforts to budget a technical consultant on the team. I would have done it for free, anything to help the realism and the feel for the sim.

Frank
:cool:

[AVGWarhawk]

@Torpex,

I like the post. It is damage control...not repair...stablize the sub for survival. Not good as new when crew show it repaired. Some just are requesting a % meter like SH3 had. IMHO, no meter is needed. If the damage is bad and hours to repair....time to go home. If you had considerable flooding, do not attempt to dive. You are patched up to make it home, not continue patrol.

[Snowman999]

@Torpex,

I like the post. It is damage control...not repair...stablize the sub for survival. Not good as new when crew show it repaired. Some just are requesting a % meter like SH3 had. IMHO, no meter is needed. If the damage is bad and hours to repair....time to go home. If you had considerable flooding, do not attempt to dive. You are patched up to make it home, not continue patrol.

I think you missed Torpex's point (he can jump in if I'm wrong.) Lots of examples of "hours to repair damage" where the patrol continued, with diving possible. That metric alone should not make you turn around and go to Pearl for drydocking. Flooding does not have to involve pressure hull cracks or tears--shorn off seawater fittings provide a very tasty flooding experience but can be fixed to 90% pressure resistance standards with gaggings and blank flanges contained in DC kits. Any recent graduate of USN sub school has been through the DC "wet trainer" and has hands on experience with pipe-and-fitting DC. WWII had similar.

Crews could not fix major pressure hull breeches, no. But the game isn't always modeling that, or if it is we aren't being told info about major hull damage that the CO would have in seconds.

The main point is, damage that results in flooding was not always a patrol-ender and if it was the CO would know why and what his risks were if he went to PD. (The drain pump can keep up with moderate flooding at PD as long as the battery lasts.) What the game has been showing is damage sufficient to flood major compartments in seconds, yet the CO has no info that this is possible. This simply COULD NOT HAPPEN.

[AVGWarhawk]

@Snow,

There is simply to much gray area for patrol ending damage or not enough damage to not end the patrol. I do not see how a better system could be made to handle all the if, ands and but's.

[Snowman999]

@Snow,

There is simply to much gray area for patrol ending damage or not enough damage to not end the patrol. I do not see how a better system could be made to handle all the if, ands and but's.

If nothing better presents itself I'd argue that SH3's system was far superior as a collation of reported damage. Major components OOC and 78% hull integrity? My call to continue. I'd make a different call at 40%. Every player could adjust his behavior to his own personal risk tolerance. But at least there were analogs for the reports the CO would get from his officers and men.

And for the "purist" (really not historic, but whatever) SH3commander allowed the hull damage meter to be turned off.

[AVGWarhawk]

@Snow,

There is simply to much gray area for patrol ending damage or not enough damage to not end the patrol. I do not see how a better system could be made to handle all the if, ands and but's.
If nothing better presents itself I'd argue that SH3's system was far superior as a collation of reported damage. Major components OOC and 78% hull integrity? My call to continue. I'd make a different call at 40%. Every player could adjust his behavior to his own personal risk tolerance. But at least there were analogs for the reports the CO would get from his officers and men.

And for the "purist" (really not historic, but whatever) SH3commander allowed the hull damage meter to be turned off.

True on all accounts but I always argue against the meter. I did in SH3 and do in SH4. I do not think a % is the way to show how good the sub is. It affects your decision to much to continue on or go home. It is a definitive answer to damage extent where you never really have a definitive answer on a repair, whether it will hold or not. It is a best guess or professional guess, nothing as concrete at a number shown.

[Torpex752]

I didnt like the hull% meter myself until I looked at it differently and accepted it as the best answer for a comprimise between computer programming knowledge of submarining and my desire for a better damage control system aboard a subsim. I simply decided that that % indication was the % of hull integrity systems remaining that had not been damaged. Anything below 50% was risky and worth a lil extra caution. 10% was all I needed to get home in a warship.

Snowman was right on the money with what I meant about the difference between damage control and repairs. The DC MUST happen fast, as a simple 1" hole at 400 ft could easily overcome a subs ability to come shallow and survive. The repairs are basically what take place after the DC. The sim incorrectly models the 2 together and gives no indication of whats taking place. The current DC model in SH4 takes way to long and does not give good representation for whats happened, whats getting fixed, how long its going to take, and wether its repairable or only stabilized. Included in my own 20 years aboard the boats, I've read literally a ton of books, reports, repair documents from WWII, and I can tell you that those boats took a beating and kept on ticking. The crews themselves did alot of repairs at sea to keep the boat fighting! Lets not forget these were warships and their crews wanted to fight! There were not that many subs that came off patrol due to battle damage, and it wasnt because they didnt fight, get DC'd or shot at!
So if I had a choice between what we have here and SH3 style, I'll take the SH3 version with a few simple tweaks.

My real life experience has taught me that Damage control is over 30% of a sub sim. If you give it any less you water down the quality of the sim. :(

Frank
:cool:

[Snowman999]

True on all accounts but I always argue against the meter. I did in SH3 and do in SH4. I do not think a % is the way to show how good the sub is. It affects your decision to much to continue on or go home. It is a definitive answer to damage extent where you never really have a definitive answer on a repair, whether it will hold or not. It is a best guess or professional guess, nothing as concrete at a number shown.


Also true, but there would be professional assesments made to the CO about possible diving limits after hull damage. You're right that the number is a "hard" number, but SH3 didn't give you info on what actions were then possible. Perhaps some players did spreadsheets on depth restrictions with X hull damage, but I never did. The number I took to be a relative assessment of risk--40% was significantly worse than 80%, but I still didn't know how deep I could get away with at 40%. I just knew it wasn't much.

The other thing the SH3 model did for me was increase CO immersion factors. Damage was a function of era, torpedos remaining, and geographic location. I had a semi-inflexible rule that I headed in at less than 70% hull remaining. But I'd also head in if I lost both my scopes, regardless. Or, if I was in the North Sea I might go 10% more damaged than I would near the Azores. I might go that 10% if I had 80% of my weapons left versus three fish remaining when I got hammered. And if I was in 1944 I'd head in at almost any damage level since an encounter while damaged was much more likely to lead to sinking.

Right now in SH4 (1.2 promises to adjust the damage model so we'll see) I don't get to play CO in that way. Everything is guesswork; my experience as the senior officer aboard isn't useful because I have no data to work from.

[AVGWarhawk]

True on all accounts but I always argue against the meter. I did in SH3 and do in SH4. I do not think a % is the way to show how good the sub is. It affects your decision to much to continue on or go home. It is a definitive answer to damage extent where you never really have a definitive answer on a repair, whether it will hold or not. It is a best guess or professional guess, nothing as concrete at a number shown.

Also true, but there would be professional assesments made to the CO about possible diving limits after hull damage. You're right that the number is a "hard" number, but SH3 didn't give you info on what actions were then possible. Perhaps some players did spreadsheets on depth restrictions with X hull damage, but I never did. The number I took to be a relative assessment of risk--40% was significantly worse than 80%, but I still didn't know how deep I could get away with at 40%. I just knew it wasn't much.

This might be a way, have a hull percentage shown but have it set up that it is either 10% higher or lower then what is shown. Make this random. You will have number and it will be some what accurate but not dead on. :hmm: Wonder if that can be worked in...

[Snowman999]

This might be a way, have a hull percentage shown but have it set up that it is either 10% higher or lower then what is shown. Make this random. You will have number and it will be some what accurate but not dead on. :hmm: Wonder if that can be worked in...


I'd go for that.

[-Pv-]

Let's see what happens in the 1.2 patch where the sub damage model has been adjusted. Debate it more then.
-Pv-

[Torpex752]

This might be a way, have a hull percentage shown but have it set up that it is either 10% higher or lower then what is shown. Make this random. You will have number and it will be some what accurate but not dead on. :hmm: Wonder if that can be worked in...


I'd go for that.

Me too! Lets resume the discussion after 1.2! :up:

Frank
:cool:

[Bane]

Well, 1.2 is here. What do you guys think now?

I took some light damage on the gun deck and went about trying to get it fixed. The manual is totally and utterly useless with it's whole four sentences on DC - that explain absolutely nothing.

So I tried just figuring it out on my own. Moving crew to the repair team, moving items up and down the repair queue, left-clicking here, right-clicking there. I never reached the point where I was told something was fixed so I can't comment on whether it was 'repaired' or 'stabilized'. I don't care which one, pick one. I just want to know for a fact which one was picked.

I had no idea how extensive the damage was, how long it was going to take to repair or even if it was being repaired at all. This is important DC information that should be jumping out of the DC screen at us, snarling and growling and flinging spittle about the room. It should not be hiding on the crew screen in a tooltip or in any other equally ridiculous place.

My opinion: essentially broken. :nope: DC is entirely too important for a submarine to have this much ambiguity about how the system works.

[panthercules]

Well, 1.2 is here. What do you guys think now?

My opinion: essentially broken. :nope: DC is entirely too important for a submarine to have this much ambiguity about how the system works.

Yeah - I'd have to say it's definitely still broken badly - as you can tell from my experience below (pasted from another thread on this topic) with 1.2, the whole damage control experience is just whacked (not the fact that my sub was lost, but the way in which the whole sequence of events unfolded was just totally screwed up):
I decided to try a quick mission to test a few things, so picked the Battle of MIdway mission. Was kinda funny watching the Japanese fleet being attacked by a bunch of dive-bombing Lancasters, so I almost missed my firing solution on the fleet carriers. I managed to hit and sink one Hiryu class carrier - none of the many destroyers paid any attention to me, despite the fact that my scope was up way too long (watching the air attacks) - but that might not be too weird since they all had their hands full fending off the air attacks.

Anyway, I saw some smoke off in the distance and decided to surface to go see what was going on (and to test to see if the escorts would notice me - they were about 4,000 yards or so away heading away from me). Well, the battleships certainly noticed me, and everybody started shooting at me. I suffered a number of hits, and should have been dead right there, but decided to take her down to see what would happen and to try to learn how to do damage control.

Everything went pretty well - wasn't too hard to figure out how to assign men to the damage repair team and assign the priority for repairs - they seemed to go to work and in relatively short order the various items were all repaired (except for the guns and stuff up top, reasonably enough). So far, so good. Eventually (all too soon, actually) everything was showing repaired so I put the repair team back in their normal slots, sounded stand down from GQ, went to silent running and let my third watch get to sleep.

Then, just for the heck of it, I started to descend - slowly - 10 feet at a time. Got all the way down to 150 feet with no problem. Stayed there for a while - no indication of any damage or problems. Then decided to come back to periscope depth to see what was going on. At about 100 feet or so, all of a sudden everything started getting damaged and I blew tanks and headed for the surface - just as I got there, the mission ended with my sub destroyed.

[Mudrik]

Re Damage control.

I started out by filling damage control with free seamen and gradually worked up to a point where they had good rank and exp and now they are very efficient.

Had a major problem with damage control recently though where I had taken damage and repaired it so that everything looked normal but my sub insisted on slowly descending to 20 feet. Once at 20 feet it would plummet to the bottom of the ocean at an alarming rate.

This was happening to me after a very successful mission and very far from home and so it was essential to make it back to Pearl. The only way I managed to get home was by frantic track and field style button bashing of the "s" key. (if you don't know what track and field is or was all about then I suggest you ask your mummy or daddy!).

When I finally made it home I had a message saying that the repair crew were standing on the dock scratching their heads and that the Admiral wasn't too pleased that I'd trashed one of his subs. I also had RSI. Has anyone else managed to make it home in a similar way?

[CaptainHaplo]

Ok, maybe I can shed some light on this. Its been an ongoing discussion in the mod forum as well, and recent testing and some overseas confirmation has led to an understanding of sorts. I will share the basics here - and then hope for feedback as to what mods you all may want to see given what we know. There are 2 damage models in place - an internal and external one.

Internal is compartmentalized - in essence - when you see bulkhead - think of the room leaking at that point. In reallity - the bulkhead is the equal of the room in sh3 - if you dont fix it - you'll continue to flood. In the new model - you have equipment in the room which also must be repaired - but thats seperate. In sh3 - fixing the "room" fixed all its equipment as well.

Each compartment has a certain amount of "hit points" - when you take damage - its applied to the room - with the majority going to the bulkhead. The rest goes to "other equipment". It is possible to fully repair the bulkhead - up to its full strength. Remember - this is INTERNAL.

External damage is your pressure hull. Damage here cannot be repaired without returning to home base. Refits at other ports seem wonky still - so dont use em for repair. This damage isn't "per compartment" - its a global value across the whole of your sub.

Now - the key is understanding how the 2 models work together. With a later class sub (stronger hull)- its possible to take repeated minor damage to a compartment and still be able to dive - some. But since each damage is not fixed on the hull - its cumulative - resulting in 2 effects. The first is a reduced crush depth, which we are familiar with from SH3 - but the second result is reduced bouyancy. This models damage to Main and Trim Ballast tanks (as best as we can figure at least). This is why people get everything repaired - dive and go into a death spiral - while showing no damage. Earlier - aka weaker hulled subs - could easily lose almost all their hull point if a compartment was hammered hard. Thats why you see what you see with the S class boats and such.

When your attacked - damage is applied to both the internal and external models. Internal damaging equipment - external damaging your overall hull strength.

The death spiral occurs whenever you dive and your hull is below 50% strength. The game simulates at that point massive ballast tank damage that negates your ability to control a dive. It is also possible to have your hull so damaged that ANY dive can crush you - which is what those going to PD and crushing are experiencing.

One other really interesting facet of the game is how it models crushing. It checks at an interval to see if your below test. If so - the farther away you are the faster bad things happen. Crush effects are very rapid anyway as modeled - but it would be possible (actually already done by a few) to slow the crush symptoms down. This would make it possible for you to go below test depth, risking damage - that accumulates - until you crush. If the crush is slowed - you would be able to react - but the key is damage slows - but doesnt stop entirely - until you SURFACE! It would make going under test depth possible - but only - as in real life - an option of last resort. Add in how hull damage makes you lose bouyancy - and you see the makings of a possible excellent mod.....

Now - changes are possible - but to what extent - and what direction do you want them made? Some things - like getting rid of one of the models - isnt really possible although numbers could be changed to make it have less impact.

If you have a mod suggestion - make sure you post it in the proper forum! If you have further questions as to how this model works - feel free to ask and I will do what I can to answer. Remember - this is a working understanding - its not guaranteed to be 100% accurate - but its a safe 90% bet.

On the note of some things not repairing - there are some Damage Control borks that are there - and there are some ideas on workarounds - but there is little so far that can be done on them. Hopefully another patch will fix those issues.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[fullmetaledges]

great post

[WWSandMan]

Ok, maybe I can shed some light on this.

....

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo
That is a very informative post, Capt. Haplo, thanks. After reading through this entire thread (sitting here nodding at 'this', shaking my head at 'that', laughing at 'the other'), you've managed to sum up much of what's gone before as well as "shed some light" on the whole damage control process as it applies to SH4.

Your ideas on the crush depth modeling and graduated damage increase are spot on, certainly a good point to be mod'ed (or patched).

Early on in the thread someone mentioned having the damage indicator bars go from red to yellow when the damaged item is fixed at sea, but in a weaker than new condition. Also, having the captain informed (somehow) that "Primary damage to <damaged item> is repaired but the boat is weakened and diving beyond approximately < xx > feet depth is not recommended" would be great.

... ooops, that stuff should be in the mod requests area. But still somewhat pertinent here I suppose.

[Torpex752]

Well I could go on all day with quotes from the guys who served on real boats during the war like these....

"Then he directed my attention to the dished-in hull just forward of the deformed hatch. "Were lucky the hull didnt fracture from the force of that depth charge". The inner side of the hull at the top of the torpedo room looked as though a giant sledge hammer had caused a 2 yard dent in the hull of about 10" in depth" The depth charge that went off tore off all decking forward of the deck gun, tore off the 20mm gun mount and sliced off the deck gun barrel 10"! It was estimated that it was a 500lb depth charge that went off 2-3 feet from the hull."

The severe depth chargings and bombings that the "Crevalle" experienced demonstrated how tough a fleet boat is..." "The extensive damage sustained by the "Crevalle", while continuing to be functional, spoke well of how survivability is built into the submarine by means of its tough hull, its simple repairable gear, and the ease with which damage control measures can be quickly and effectively carried out"

"The "Crevalle" was taken to 500ft, 80 ft below her 412ft test depth (they all knew that there was a 150% margin of safety)"

During this depth charging the forward torpedo rooms hatch had its dogs sheared off by a depth charge and momentarily opened allowing a considerable amount of water to flood the boat. The water was waist deep in the room yet was able to maintain depth with 2/3rds bell and pumping water out of the fwd trip tank and bow bouyancy tank."




I would say that the first thing we need from the dev team are some indications of whats happening before we could accurately say what needs adjusting. The damage model may be allot easier to deal with, need less modding if we knew what was happening. That being said, however, I would say that based off everything that was ever described about the boats, from the men who were there, that the hull definately is too fragile.

Regarding bouyancy it sounds like thats the item thats really been mis understood by the dev team. First, internal trim tanks, damaged or not can be dewatered given some extra minutes. (Follow closely here) Therefore lets say damage control efforts get the flooding & leaks stopped, if all the water is pumped out of the boat (trim water and all) AND the main ballast tanks are damaged, the boat loses its reserve bouyancy and will sit lower in the water, closer to neutral bouyancy BUT not a goner even if you submerge AND it will be capable of surfacing. This is assuming that there are no big holes that havent been plugged by some damage control device. PD to 100 feet is a fair depth for serious damage like that. A submarine does not change weight to submerge/surface, it changes DISPLACEMENT. Therefore holes in ballast tanks will not affect bouyancy UNLESS the boat has extra weight and cannot dewater.

I wont even try to suggest what to mod, I'll just keep explaining until you all understand sufficiently so you can decide if its fixable with a mod. ;)

Frank
:cool:

[U-Bones]

I would say that the first thing we need from the dev team are some indications of whats happening before we could accurately say what needs adjusting. The damage model may be allot easier to deal with, need less modding if we knew what was happening. ...
...I wont even try to suggest what to mod, I'll just keep explaining until you all understand sufficiently so you can decide if its fixable with a mod. ;)

Frank
:cool:

Bingo. There are a ton of things that are not showing in either the damage board or the save files. I decided to not make a career of guessing. They fix it, open it up so we can fix it, or neither. It's pretty broken for now, so I'm just waiting on 1.3.

[CaptainHaplo]

Torpex, your right as far as the weight/displacement issue. But what the game is modelling is the tanks inability to be "dewatered". Yes - trim tanks were "internal" compared to the MBT saddle tanks. Nothing is perfect - so look at it as a decreasing ability to control (during submerged operation) the MBT's as you normally would. Yes - trim tanks can compensate - and that is modelled somewhat as LIGHT damage doesnt cause an issue. But as damage increases - the ability of the Trim tanks to compensate diminish - and disappear somewhere about the 15% mark. This is accurate - as trim tanks are much smaller than the MBT's.

I do agree that the hulls seem a bit understrength. However - I am more inclined to the thought that the DC's may be overpowered as compared to the hulls being the issue. After all - if your a sub and you get hit with a 3" shell from a merchie - you should still be hurting! The only known times of submarines getting hit with shellfire - it was always catastrophic for the sub. The unknown ones = well they are unknown for a reason. IRL - a sub on the surface - is an eggshell......

The quote you made is exactly the kind of feedback I meant - and confirmed my thoughts on the subject as well.

Ubones - As for how things work - I tried to explain that as best as possible. No - I am not a dev, but this is based of the results of many, many modders testing for ALOT of hours. *Feel free to read in the mod forum and see the level of testing that gets done!* If your unsure of how it works at a given point - why certain things happen or whatever, please - post the question.

There are a slew of folks that look at the damage model and scream "its BORKED!" - and in a few places it is - but its actually alot more indepth and "accurate" than anything ever seen before in a subsim. Thats why understanding it is important. Once its understood - and I hope for some it is a little better now - then we can start to decide what - if any - changes the community wants.

Ideas like color changes for "damaged" areas, etc - are great. I cant speak to how feasible it is - my own modding skills are limited to the number crunching and changes in that realm. Throw them into the Mod forum and lets see where we can go to make SH4 the best.

And yes - I hope there is a 1.3 - because there are alot of issues still out there - but until we get it......
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[Torpex752]

MBT's have only 2 states....Full of water or full of air...this is what gives the difference between submerged and surfaced dispacement and gives you the reserve bouyancy which makes a submarine actually quite resiliant in the flooding catagory.

If the Sub model diminishes the subs ability to dewater trim tanks or bilges then thats flat out wrong. My knowledge of how a submarine works is from having been on the boats for many years and having a hobby of WWII subs sort of made me have a slight problem..too much knowledge. LOL So trim tanks are smaller than, but the floodable area inside the pressure hull isnt. So if the boat floods one compartment 1/2 full and they manage to stop the flooding, the sub could dewater and get home. If they are basing the subs ability to dewater soley off the trim tanks then they are wrong.

The other thing here that is scewed a bit is how rapidly the boats reserve bouyancy is gone. I assure you that if the crew manages to stop the flooding and then somehow their DC repairs fail that it wont sink faster then it did initially....This DC model closely resembles the one in SH2 in how fast you die.

Any shell hit, except for glancing blows would cause critical damage, however they do not turn the sub into an instant rock either....that reserve bouyancy is there for a reason and will buy some time in conjunction with pumping the water out.

So I cant pretend to understand the way they programed the sub model, I can only tell you that its not reacting like a damaged submarine.

Frank
:cool:

[Radtgaeb]

Is a fuel leak not modeled? Not that it would matter for players since the batteries recharge without engines on, right?

Oh no, fuel leaks are definately modeled...they suck.

[Rick Martin]

Don't know about subs but on the surface ships we used to joke that DC was just to keep the water out long enough to launch the boats and rafts. Seriously, its mostly a band-aid to keep the ship functional enough to get to safety. If the damage is serious enough you want to try to get home ASAP. By the way your DC info was very helpful. The manual really doesn't cover damage control enough to be useful.:D

[Zero Niner]

Sorry to have to resurrect this thread, but damage control is so little understood and so important to the sim. Now that 1.4 is out, has there been any new knowledge/insights in this area of SH4?
Sorry if there's a new thread out there about DC, I got this from the tech help sticky.

[AVGWarhawk]

Damage control is pretty much unchanged. We did receive a hull % of damage with patch 1.4. This is the only thing that has really been added. You can find the hull % in the upper left hand corning of the damage control screen. It does help in deciding to stay on patrol or head on home for repairs.

[Snuffy]

Damage is still handled the same way.

Make sure all your structural stuff (bulkheads) makes the top of the repair list. Usually the lightest damge goes first (for me) then the heavier. Next after bulkheads usually are pumps. (needed for evacuating the flooding)
Then the engines, batteries, generators, shafting

Make sure you put your repair team on alert at the first sign of damage.

[THE_MASK]

I try not to get damaged in the first place . Keep away from destroyers etc .

[Travis Reed]

For the DC teams you will want a mixture of those skilled in Mechanical and Electrical, with one having high Leadership being in charge (ideally this guy also has a decent mech/elect skill as well). Not everything on subs is mechanical...remember, someone has to know how to fix the electronics...

Probably about 2/3 need mech, 1/3 need elect, and one guy needs the leadership (and to be in charge).