America Less of a Democracy Every Day...

[ASWnut101]

First, let me get this straight.

Here is the definition of Democracy:


1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2.a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit. 5.the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.


In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government. Everything the government does is from what the people want. According to the Declaration of Independence:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.


...we can abolish an abusive form of government at any time if our personal security, liberty, and freedom rights were neglected in any form. Throughout the years (and I'm talking over the past 15 or so), our government has insated laws and regulations that restrict our freedoms, has very recently stopped listening to the voters (you and me, fellow Americans) in an attempt to expose a subjected theory that the 43rd president (GWB) had illegally fired members of the supreme court, which was never the voter's intentions or of their knowledge. We have a supreme-court that has pushed unconstatutional laws that directly affect the lives of the voters (again, you and me). We have had our government let an overpower (the United Nations) who attempts to push many unconstatutional laws, such as the Kyoto Protocol, which the people of the United States have absolutaly no control over. We have had lawyers who pushed laws and amendments that favor one group of people and disregard the rest.


As such, things THIS (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-usattys13mar13,0,5174207.story) article show that senators and congressmen/women have overstepped their voter's wishes and opinions to pursue a theory pushed into the legal system by a congress that is not even half a year old.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Agreement) and This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban). The first, is a measure that will levee the economic freedom of buisnesses nationwide, breaking our rights yet again. The second was an unconstatutional attempt to limit the freedom of purchase, ownership, and usage of a weapon (something clearly defined in the Bill of Rights).

THIS (http://www.saf.org/viewpr.asp?id=161). A total breach of personal rights defined by the government, specifically Amendment's II, IV, and IX. 100% Unlawful, with no imput from the people.


Recently, as I have shown, the Senators and Congress have gone on a political joy ride. Let me ask you this: Have any of you ever gone to a voting station to vote on these?

[elite_hunter_sh3]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.

[August]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.

Please stay out of my country.

[Onkel Neal]

I blame it all on fast food.

[Enigma]

Nope, never voted on any of that. And that just scratches the surface, as im sure you know....

Rubberstamping: It's not just for politicians anymore. It's also for voters.

[fatty]

...we can abolish an abusive form of government at any time if our personal security, liberty, and freedom rights were neglected in any form. Throughout the years (and I'm talking over the past 15 or so), our government has insated laws and regulations that restrict our freedoms, has very recently stopped listening to the voters (you and me, fellow Americans) in an attempt to expose a subjected theory that the 43rd president (GWB) had illegally fired members of the supreme court, which was never the voter's intentions or of their knowledge. We have a supreme-court that has pushed unconstatutional laws that directly affect the lives of the voters (again, you and me). We have had our government let an overpower (the United Nations) who attempts to push many unconstatutional laws, such as the Kyoto Protocol, which the people of the United States have absolutaly no control over. We have had lawyers who pushed laws and amendments that favor one group of people and disregard the rest.


Of course, in theory, politicians are to be held accountable for their actions in office at polling time. Sadly that's not how things work out. Federal voter turnout is pretty low in the US. Vote-buying patronage seems to be commonplace. And as Hitler said, "what luck for rulers that men don't think" - IMHO not many voters really seem to understand the gravity of these kinds of issues. I recently read Democracy in America which had other interesting critiques about the American system which you can look up if you want.

But what can be done? Should America do away with representative/liberal democracy and just have a referendum on every issue? That worked in the Greek polis, but America is 300 million strong.

I chuckled when Neal blamed the problem on "fast food" but I think there's a point there. Pardon me if this seems offensive in anyway, but look at the direction of American culture; on a given Tuesday night, about 30 million people (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/arts/television/20idol.html?ei=5090&en=6a21cd6f4f1a4dde&ex=1329627600) are tuning into American Idol. That's one tenth of the population in one single hour parked in front of their TVs. A huge number. Nevermind all of the other trashy shows on that week, or those substituting scarfing down a Big Mac in the place of insightful dinner table discussion. There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.

And this disillusionment with politics seems to perpetuate itself. As more people tune in to Maury instead of CNN/MSNBC/whatever, the more things officials can get away with, and the more reason to become ignorant of what seems to be an essentially futile and helpless situation.

I'm no expert but I would prescribe serious education to children about the importance of political involvement. Not just "blah blah blah we're the free-est country and democracy is great" but really hammer into their heads that if you don't use it, you will lose it.

EDIT: The news outlets themselves have some blame in this too. Every night I have got into bed to wind down and watch the news there has always, without fail, been some form of coverage of Anna Nicole Smith. No real news, just interviews with coroners etc. Kind of depressing.

[fatty]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.

??? :doh:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

pretty simple america would be in a huge surplus in money flow if bush and clinton never went into power, and with a surplus comes better education and health care for the class that cant afford it, even thou ur university system is 1. in the world , only reason why im so anti american is because of bush and clinton, i want them out of power and either in jail or worse. i admit i dont live in te states, but all that i know if the public dont do something soon america will not be as influential and persuasive as they have been for te last 65-75 yrs, if america does change its path and fixes the problems created by bush and clinton then, id probably live there, im heading into space engineering as a career so im either looking into canadian space agency, nasa or whatever agency relates to space and space travel.

[Tchocky]

In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government. Everything the government does is from what the people want. ...we can abolish an abusive form of government at any time if our personal security, liberty, and freedom rights were neglected in any form. Throughout the years (and I'm talking over the past 15 or so), our government has insated laws and regulations that restrict our freedoms The government is perfectly right to restrict your freedoms, examples including your freedom to drink and drive, your freedom to steal, and many others. What freedoms are restricted, and how, is where politics and government happen.... has very recently stopped listening to the voters (you and me, fellow Americans) in an attempt to expose a subjected theory that the 43rd president (GWB) had illegally fired members of the supreme court, which was never the voter's intentions or of their knowledge. Who's being fired from the Supreme Court? This is news to me. If you mean the current mess involving the fired US attorneys, get your facts right.
What does the "voters intentions or knowledge" mean in this context? From past experience, voter knowledge counts for f*ck-all, as fatty pointed out.
The ordinary voter is not nearly knowledgeable enough about big issues to make informed decisions. The United States is a republic before a democracy; you don't make the decisions, you decide who makes them for you.
Do you know enough about macroeconomics to make informed decisions on the national budget? I sure don't. Let's leave it to someone who does. What about stem cell research? Running the Heath Service? Armed forces? The same thing goes for the Supreme Court. The voters can show their preference in selecting the man who selects, the President. After that, after the vote, they're just lobbyists.
The intentions of the voters don't matter either, one of the wonderful things about democracy is that only the vote counts, not the reasons for it.

We have a supreme-court that has pushed unconstatutional laws that directly affect the lives of the voters (again, you and me). We have had our government let an overpower (the United Nations) who attempts to push many unconstatutional laws, such as the Kyoto Protocol, which the people of the United States have absolutaly no control over. We have had lawyers who pushed laws and amendments that favor one group of people and disregard the rest. Lawyers are supposed to opush for the best interests of their clients, it's the essence of an adversarial justice system. Lobbyists are also obliged to do all they can for their bankrollers. Sadly, most policy-makers are too susceptible to intensive lobbying, for less than noble reasons.

As such, things THIS (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-usattys13mar13,0,5174207.story) article show that senators and congressmen/women have overstepped their voter's wishes and opinions to pursue a theory pushed into the legal system by a congress that is not even half a year old. What do mean with these wishes/opinions? What do they count for? One man, one vote. Everything after that is undue influence. I doubt the voters would prefer to see baseless politically-motivated dismissals, and lies about such dismissals, to a hard-working group of attorneys doing their job. Now, not all of that previous sentence has been proven, but whats the harm in questioning?
If wrongdoing is suspected to have been committed in law enforcement, isnt it the duty of the Congress to investigate it, no matter how old the current congress is?
If the voters find their wishes/opinions not in line with the goings-on in Washington, then rejoice, because reoresentative democracy is working.
Recently, as I have shown, the Senators and Congress have gone on a political joy ride. Let me ask you this: Have any of you ever gone to a voting station to vote on these? Again, you don't vote on the issues, you vote on who votes on the issues. Thats the difference between democracy and representative democracy. The United States is not a pure democracy, it's a constitutional republic.

Political joy-ride? They're politicians! Thats not a loaded word here, it's their job description. Elected by the people to assist running the country in the best way they see fit. That's the theory

[The Avon Lady]

I chuckled when Neal blamed the problem on "fast food" but I think there's a point there. Pardon me if this seems offensive in anyway, but look at the direction of American culture; on a given Tuesday night, about 30 million people (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/arts/television/20idol.html?ei=5090&en=6a21cd6f4f1a4dde&ex=1329627600) are tuning into American Idol. That's one tenth of the population in one single hour parked in front of their TVs. A huge number. Nevermind all of the other trashy shows on that week, or those substituting scarfing down a Big Mac in the place of insightful dinner table discussion. There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.
I fully agree. America has dumbed down tremendously. That's not to say that other countries haven't just as well but America in a leadership position cannot afford to more than many others.

And freedom's enemies are laughing.

[joea]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.


Please stay out of my country.

I think he forgets Canada is indeed a capitalist economy, and we are very linked and dependent on the US for our prosperity (goes the other way too) and let's face it, Hummers are capitalist militarist products. :arrgh!: :rotfl:

[joea]

pretty simple america would be in a huge surplus in money flow if bush and clinton never went into power, and with a surplus comes better education and health care for the class that cant afford it, even thou ur university system is 1. in the world , only reason why im so anti american is because of bush and clinton, i want them out of power and either in jail or worse. i admit i dont live in te states, but all that i know if the public dont do something soon america will not be as influential and persuasive as they have been for te last 65-75 yrs, if america does change its path and fixes the problems created by bush and clinton then, id probably live there, im heading into space engineering as a career so im either looking into canadian space agency, nasa or whatever agency relates to space and space travel.

I agree that things went downhill with Clinton, and Bush made some big mistakes too...I think you have a cool dream working for the space program! It might give us some hope.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

who knows, by the looks of it if university goes well i might be down at nasa making the mars rover for the mars landing crew:up:, and since canada is so dependent on the US, why do u think theres soaring gas prices even worse here, inflation, everything is more expensive, i say we should cut off our precvios softwood lumber, and our freshwater from the us if they keep screweing canada over with their nafta, and their beef bans...:nope::nope::nope: stupid farmers:down:

and yes i LIKE my DADs hummer, but I like my 1991 Honda CBR 250rr , 250cc import from japan, 3.5 liters of gas for every 100km, 65hp top speed of 220kmh, and i redlines from 18,000-20,000 rpm, formula one sounded motorcycle anyone??:arrgh!:

[bradclark1]

pretty simple america would be in a huge surplus in money flow if bush and clinton never went into power
Clinton had a 230 billion dollar surplus. Don't you ever attempt to check your information or do you just spout what you think sounds good?

[waste gate]

Since its upto the Congress to raise and allocate money neither Clinton nor Bush, nor any other president is responsible for any surplus or deficet.

I point you to Article One, Sections seven and eight of the US Constitution.

[bradclark1]

Can't argue with you on that and not going into research mode I remember Clinton always going on about cuts and even Bush said his plan will cut the deficet by so much by such and such a date so the president has got to be an influence.

[waste gate]

Perhaps he has some 'political' influence since most talk about tax cuts/increases happen early in a president's tenur, when his 'political' strength is the greatest. Also one must take into account the ease of listening to and reporting on one person's ideas than it is to listening to and understanding the ideas of 465 people.

Constitutionally the president has but one influence over money and that comes in the form of his veto power. Which of course can be reversed with an overide by congress (which depends upon their political strength). I think we will be seeing this scenrio played out rather soon.

[STEED]

I blame it all on fast food.

Good one Neal. :rotfl:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

and why is your national debt $8,845,440,821,567.38???

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

if u live in the states you personnally owe $29,358.17 .... have fun paying that off

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.88 billion per day since September 29, 2006" wow...

[waste gate]

and why is your national debt $8,845,440,821,567.38???

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

if u live in the states you personnally owe $29,358.17 .... have fun paying that off

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.88 billion per day since September 29, 2006" wow...

Because the US Congress spends money like drunken sailors and blames it on the president. And the dumbed down, circus and bread people believe the lie.

Then there is this:
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/images/federal_budget/ffbudgetExpenditures.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.


Wow, that got me thinking how much I would like to send a text message to some enormous cleavage! :o

[letterboy1]

The United States of America is a Democratic Republic, not a Democracy. It's a shame that an online dictionary uses the terms interchangable. That's liberalism at work in the USA.

Sources:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388

http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

[Enigma]

That's liberalism at work in the USA.

:lol:

[fatty]

There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.


Wow, that got me thinking how much I would like to send a text message to some enormous cleavage! :o

Har har, crudely stated perhaps but I think my point got across. I agree with AL that the problem is also definitely not limited to America.

[Tchocky]

The United States of America is a Democratic Republic, not a Democracy. It's a shame that an online dictionary uses the terms interchangable. That's liberalism at work in the USA.

Sources:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388

http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

Already stated, ignored :)

[MothBalls]

I blame fake Australian beer.

[August]

pretty simple america would be in a huge surplus in money flow if bush and clinton never went into power Clinton had a 230 billion dollar surplus. Don't you ever attempt to check your information or do you just spout what you think sounds good?

Not to detract from your chastizing but the Clinton "surplus" was mainly smoke and mirrors based on 10 year projections that had little to do with reality.

[August]

if u live in the states you personnally owe $29,358.17 .... have fun paying that off

Have fun trying to collect...

[Rockstar]

The United States of America is a Democratic Republic, not a Democracy. It's a shame that an online dictionary uses the terms interchangable. That's liberalism at work in the USA.

Sources:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388

http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

Already stated, ignored :)

We've been down this road before I tried looking for one of my earlier posts regarding this but to no avail. So to sum it up the United States of America is a Constitutional Republic.

[Tchocky]

Yup, 9th post, very end of :up:

[Ark]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.

Please stay out of my country.

lmao

[letterboy1]

The United States of America is a Democratic Republic, not a Democracy. It's a shame that an online dictionary uses the terms interchangable. That's liberalism at work in the USA.

Sources:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388

http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

Already stated, ignored :)

If you responded, you didn't ignore.

[letterboy1]

The United States of America is a Democratic Republic, not a Democracy. It's a shame that an online dictionary uses the terms interchangable. That's liberalism at work in the USA.

Sources:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3388

http://www.albatrus.org/english/goverment/govenrment/democracy%20versus%20repubblic.htm

Already stated, ignored :)

We've been down this road before I tried looking for one of my earlier posts regarding this but to no avail. So to sum it up the United States of America is a Constitutional Republic.

Thanks for the correction.

[tycho102]

In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government.
As long as "the people" retain the ability and the courage to overthrow the current government, by force. Yes. The people have absolute control.

As with so many other things in life, it is pain of death that serves as balance.

Americans have neither the courage, nor ability, to enforce absolute control. I am not entirely sure where it was lost, but I suspect in the early 30's at the height of the depression. Perhaps that is just where it started.

[Sailor Steve]

I never know where to start with threads like this. I tend to be more conservative than liberal, and to a point I even agree with ASWNut and Waste-Gate. The problem I have is when anybody on either side claims to know, absolutely, what's right and what's wrong, whether morally or with the country. Even the founders didn't claim that kind of knowledge.

Yes, the wording in the Declaration proclaims our natural right of self-government, even to the point of armed revolution; but if you know anything about the events leading up to the War of Independence, you'll know that the original patriots did everything they could to circumvent Parliament while still maintaining loyalty to the King. In effect, they wanted independent government while still remaining British, which would have made America the first Commonwealth nation. They didn't declare independence until the King himself proclaimed them to be in a state of rebellion and sent in the regular army.

In an thread a few weeks ago I said that this wasn't the first time people on one side or another have said the country is "going to hell in a handbasket". That time I was told "No, this time it really is"! Well, people thought so back then too.

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

[ASWnut101]

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china:up:, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+:huh:) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.


Could you please explian to me how Capitalism (a form of economy) relates to what I said? Even though I was drunk, I belive I got my point along well enough for others to understand.

[ASWnut101]

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.


As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
I am not trying to blame the Dems or the Reps. I was trying to get along the fact that from what this country started on, alot has changed, and not much for the better.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

I did not claim myself to be right, nor did I blame (intentionally) anyone else. If the links posted relate to democrats (Seriously, I can't remember), then I assume it was unintentional.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

And what do half of these have to do with what I'm talking about?


You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

So I cannot voice my opinion?

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

No, I don't.

[Aimbot]

We've been a republic from day one. Thanks for playing.

[P_Funk]

Because the US Congress spends money like drunken sailors and blames it on the president. And the dumbed down, circus and bread people believe the lie.
Right. So the President sends the armed forces accross to Iraq, says to Congress "Fund our troops or you are unpatriotic", refuses to bring them back, and backs Congress into a corner despite the turning tide of political opinion. Yea, the budget is all Congress' fault. In the mean time while the US is burning money in other countries AND deploying an army that costs billions, the Congress has to also manage the needs of the domestic population by giving them health care, education, roads, police, hopitals, and anything else that's demanded in the so called first world but it all has to be on a war time budget.

You know if the US is to be constantly at war with whatever phantom is spooking the western world this year then how can you not spend money in Congress? The US spends money in peace time as if it were at war. You can't break even that way.

[ASWnut101]

Because the US Congress spends money like drunken sailors and blames it on the president. And the dumbed down, circus and bread people believe the lie.
Right. So the President sends the armed forces accross to Iraq, says to Congress "Fund our troops or you are unpatriotic", refuses to bring them back, and backs Congress into a corner despite the turning tide of political opinion. Yea, the budget is all Congress' fault.

Yes, it is. Congress' job is to help fund the troops, not attempt military-level decisions (In this matter, troop pull-outs). As you say below, they also help fund our health care, education, ect.

In the mean time while the US is burning money in other countries AND deploying an army that costs billions, the Congress has to also manage the needs of the domestic population by giving them health care, education, roads, police, hopitals, and anything else that's demanded in the so called first world but it all has to be on a war time budget.

Let's just say there's alot of money to go around...

You know if the US is to be constantly at war with whatever phantom is spooking the western world this year then how can you not spend money in Congress? The US spends money in peace time as if it were at war. You can't break even that way.

But, who does that money go to? We are in national debt, which many-a-country is, so who do we pay it to? Also, we are not "constantly at war" with people, even if they are at war with us.

[Tchocky]

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.
I've noticed this here as well, from both sides. I'm saying "both sides", because even though there's a Rubik's Cube of positions among posters here, arguments descend into posters assuming the worst, and reacting to the most ridiculous statements, instead of proper argument and discussion.(example, the general reaction to gnirtS's comments about intelligence in the military)
I'm quite guilty of this myself.
*sigh*

Sailor Steve, big thumbs up :up:

[P_Funk]

You know if the US is to be constantly at war with whatever phantom is spooking the western world this year then how can you not spend money in Congress? The US spends money in peace time as if it were at war. You can't break even that way.
But, who does that money go to? We are in national debt, which many-a-country is, so who do we pay it to? Also, we are not "constantly at war" with people, even if they are at war with us. Yes the US is. The US is deployed around the world and not just in Iraq or Afghanistan. Plus the cost of running an occupation with a volunteer army during peace time (because war was never declared though it is always called war) is huge. The cost of arms that it takes to create and support an army that can invade and occupy a nation at any time with little notice is a recurring cost in and of itself that never goes away even if the troops pull out.

The Congess can take whichever actions it feels necessary to achieve the ends it feels are in the best interest of the nation. And if the congress is responsible for the budget then it is also responsible for considering what it is spent on. You cannot decide how to spend money without consciously considering its purpose. The Congress is not a rubber stamp for the president. It is a check and a balance.

And the money goes to whoever it is owed to. But it is possible to have a budget, a military, a social welfare system, AND a surplus. Clinton did it, the Liberals in Canada did it. Today Canada is participating in Afghanistan and we aren't in massive debt and we have a better social welfare system than the US despite having a smaller GDP.

[August]

But it is possible to have a budget, a military, a social welfare system, AND a surplus. Clinton did it,

Uhm no he didn't.

The US budget surpluses of the 1990s were based on highly optimistic (to be kind) revenue projections.

That's like saying "I expect to win the lottery next year so I can budget spending 100,000 dollars a month now".

[Sailor Steve]

As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
'nuff said; I understand.:up:
You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinio. Try and honest debate soemtime. You might learn something.
So I cannot voice my opinion?
Oh, you can and should. I love debate, and I love searching all sides of an argument. As I said, I only get contentions when people state their arguments or opinions as if they were absolute fact, and anyone who disagrees is de facto wrong.

But, you gave the reason above and I apologize if I overreacted.

[1mPHUNit0]

He understand :up::up:
:lol::lol::lol:

[Sailor Steve]

But it is possible to have a budget, a military, a social welfare system, AND a surplus. Clinton did it,

Uhm no he didn't.

The US budget surpluses of the 1990s were based on highly optimistic (to be kind) revenue projections.

That's like saying "I expect to win the lottery next year so I can budget spending 100,000 dollars a month now".
I always answer the "Clinton balanced the budget" argument with this: Clinton claims to have balanced that year's budget by raising taxes. If that's true, the wouldn't raising taxes to 100% be the next logical step? It would pay off the National Debt in record time, and the government could just give us whatever they thought we deserved.

UnAmerican? Who cares?

Of course then ASW and Waste-Gate would be proved right, and you'd better be prepared for the new revolution, because it WILL be coming soon!

[Tchocky]

I always answer the "Clinton balanced the budget" argument with this: Clinton claims to have balanced that year's budget by raising taxes. If that's true, the wouldn't raising taxes to 100% be the next logical step? It would pay off the National Debt in record time, and the government could just give us whatever they thought we deserved.

Governments generally don't balance budgets because a) they can't, and b) it's not always a good idea.

Only balance a budget if things are good and definitely not going to change, ever. Borrow when times are bad, you're putting more money into the economy than you're taking out, creating growth, investment and jobs. When you're on the upswing, run a surplus and pay what you owe.
The problem here is that governments, and people, have a problem with taxes. Hence we get ridiculous National Debt percentages.

[bradclark1]

I always answer the "Clinton balanced the budget" argument with this: Clinton claims to have balanced that year's budget by raising taxes. If that's true, the wouldn't raising taxes to 100% be the next logical step? It would pay off the National Debt in record time, and the government could just give us whatever they thought we deserved.

UnAmerican? Who cares?

Of course then ASW and Waste-Gate would be proved right, and you'd better be prepared for the new revolution, because it WILL be coming soon!
Okay that's that year. What about the the 122.7 billion the year before?