Do you embrace failure?

[ParaB]

Yesterday I played a multiplayer game of SH4 and chatted with a couple of guys about the general gameplay. What surprised me a bit was that obviously everybody except me regularly completes 100k tonnage patrols, sinking battleships and carriers left and right. When I told them that I often suffered from dud torpedoes or a bad manual aiming I got the reply "well, always save before firing your tops, then you can reload if you miss".

Errrr... this got me wondering a bit.

For me my failures are an essential part of the SH4 atmosphere. If I save/load for every attack until I get the perfect result, what's the motivation to play the game at all? Every patrol will yield the same success.

OTOH only when you miss a battleship or suffer from duds will you appreciate the feeling of triumph next time you actually hit a big target. And only if you complete a patrol with a meagre success you will come to appreciate a really good patrol.

[Sank_Quick]

The only time i save/reload is before entering an enemy port or attacking a convoy, and thats only just incase of a CTD. I enjoy the missing of ships, because it gives me something to gauge my future patrols by, so i can actually notice if i do progressively better.:ping::ping:

[Torcher]

I usually use the reload of a saved game when a bugged aspect of the game gets me or at the patrol level only i.e. to replay a screwed up patrol. I don't micromanage all the little f ups during a patrol.

I'll definately be replaying last nights patrol. Returning from a successful outing only to be gang raped by enema planes 2 days out of Midway during an RTB.:damn:

[DaMaGe007]

I have played Sh3 and Sh4 since it came out, I have NEVER saved mid patrol, not even once.
I dont play dead is dead, but if a patrol is no good its no good.

[Sailor Steve]

I always save before an attack in SH3, but that's because I have no real sound card and the game occassionaly crashes when a ship sinks. I'll probably keep the habit in SH4 (when I can finally play it) but somehow it feels like cheating to me to fix results just because I don't like them.

[clayton]

I save in case of a CTD and to be honest, due to the numerous aircraft presence. Though diving during the day works out ok, though I wonder how realistic that was?

[ryuzu]

Yesterday I played a multiplayer game of SH4 and chatted with a couple of guys about the general gameplay. What surprised me a bit was that obviously everybody except me regularly completes 100k tonnage patrols, sinking battleships and carriers left and right. When I told them that I often suffered from dud torpedoes or a bad manual aiming I got the reply "well, always save before firing your tops, then you can reload if you miss".

Errrr... this got me wondering a bit.

For me my failures are an essential part of the SH4 atmosphere. If I save/load for every attack until I get the perfect result, what's the motivation to play the game at all? Every patrol will yield the same success.

OTOH only when you miss a battleship or suffer from duds will you appreciate the feeling of triumph next time you actually hit a big target. And only if you complete a patrol with a meagre success you will come to appreciate a really good patrol.

That is gameplaying... personally I prefer simulation - simulation doesn't need saves to get a high score.

However, with the game in it's current state, it is a bit too easy to get high tonnage patrols by basically sailing into a harbour, shooting up the place and sailing out. You can do it undetected and, as far as I can tell, even when things start exploding the AI doesn't seem to bother with seriously looking for you, and certainly the fighting vessels in the harbour don't suddenly wake up. You only need a battleship or two, or a couple of carriers to get into the 50K range straight off. :down:

r.

[sea enemy]

I had a patrol where I took Grampus out to the Marshall islands in late '41. Never got one contact, never saw a single enemy maru. On the way back to Midway for fuel, I got the fox that wake had fallen, so I decided on a detour, to see if there was any of the invasion force to attack...Well, it looked like the mobile fleet was nearby, and I accidently got severely damaged by what I believe was a B5N. Limped home worse for wear...

Patrol was a total eye-rolling failure...But, I had more fun on it than any other patrol yet!

I do however save at certain points out of fear of a CTD-I swear I've almost accidently hit the 'a' key about ten times...But never a save in contact..

[bobo]

Personally I don't really make a mental note of the tonnage I sink/sank on a patrol. I may look at the end result and decide I need to turn up the difficulty but I certainly couldn't tell ya if I've ever got over or near to 100k, I just don't keep track. Like many here I play the simulation with an occasional external camera for taking in the eye candy only and not for a tactical gain.

Saving in case a torp misses? Never even crossed my mind. I do save regularly though due to the unstable nature of SH4. CTD is the only reason I've ever re-loaded a saved game while playing a patrol.

[Doolan]

Tempting as saving might be, it's like playing poker without money: it just doesn't work.

It's not that you're "free to screw up" so to speak. The impact is much deeper, as being ready to load / save indiscriminately changes your tactics *a lot*. There are many things you wouldn't dare to do if you didn't have the save / load option. Playing without it forces you to actually think, plan ahead and try to minimize mistakes. In other words, it makes you play in a completely different (and in my opinion more engaging) way.

I abused save / load at first when I was learning the sim, but I always feel guilty when I do it more than once without a justified cause, so I try to stay away from it as much as possible.

The current (relatively buggy) state of the game makes it difficult to avoid it completely, but I simply can't wait for patch 1.2: I want to sink stuff right here and right now :arrgh!:

[Psyon]

i save after topping off at midway and save right when i get on station..
just incase any game problems happens.

never reload after a bad attack run :ping:

[nfitzsimmons]

I always save regularly with almost every game I play to guard against the various crashes that we all see, but I don't reload a saved game just because I got beat up.

Of course I only got SH4 last Friday, and keep getting my butt sunk while I learn the controls. Experience is a powerful teacher, after all.

[WFGood]

I also save before attacking a task force or convoy just in case there is a CTD or something else untoward occurs. I do not normally pay attention to the tonnage that I sink, but it is unrealistic at the moment.
On my first patrol I sank 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, etc. On the next I managed another carrier, and on my latest patrol I sank the Yamato among other major combatants. In a realistic scenario I would have been awarded the CMH and out on a war bond drive for the rest of the war. I love the game, but it does seem that the AI is woefully uninterested in us. I have been shot at by numerous planes, but I have steamed full speed, surfaced through enemy task forces without so much as a passing shot. I have been fired at once, and after I turned, they no longer paid any attention freeing me to attack again.

[gnirtS]

Im still totally useless at identifying ships. Result is i wasted 4 torpedos sinking a medium gun boat for about 900 tons. This continued throughout the patrol. Eventually came back with 0 torpedos remaining and 11000 tons only sunk. Mostly small stuff and 1destroyer.

I save before and after major contacts though but thats purely as i dont trust the game in its present guise not to crash out on me.

[Iron Budokan]

If I miss my attack on a ship I don't save and replay to give myself another chance. And I always play DiD, too.

[ParaB]

Ok, looks like I'm not the only one who accepts failure as an important part of the game.

:yep:

[Anachronous]

Sounds like cheating to me. You might as well just have unlimited torps and enemies that dont move if you are simply going to keep reloading until you get it right.

[partyboy]

I'll reload while I'm still learning the mechanics of something, but once I'm pretty comfortable with it I play dead is dead. If my torpedoes don't sink a target before I'm spotted by the escorts and I have to bail, so be it. Where's the fun in a perfect patrol if you have to keep reloading just to secure it?

[NefariousKoel]

I play Dead is Dead.
Even when I shoot down an aircraft and it crashes right into my boat and I go down with all hands.

The only times I've been saving is after making an attack and making clear just to be sure there's no CTD even though I've only had one thus far, found the problem, and worked around it.

I should probably save before making an attack run in case of CTDs but I've not needed it.

[Werewolf13]

Yesterday I played a multiplayer game of SH4 and chatted with a couple of guys about the general gameplay. What surprised me a bit was that obviously everybody except me regularly completes 100k tonnage patrols, sinking battleships and carriers left and right. When I told them that I often suffered from dud torpedoes or a bad manual aiming I got the reply "well, always save before firing your tops, then you can reload if you miss".Guys that play like that are better off puttin' quarters in a machine. I can hear 'em now when their torps miss. "Do over - do over".

That would take all the challenge and the fun out of it for me. Without consequences what's the point... :down:

[Werewolf13]

Though diving during the day works out ok, though I wonder how realistic that was?Very realistic. Read Admiral Richard O'kane's (I think that's his name) book Clear the Bridge (again - I think that's it - been about 15 years or so since I read it and about 20 since the first time I read it). He commanded the USS Tang in WWII and was XO for one of the more famous skippers before that (I think the Wahoo and Mush Morton). Diving during the day in enemy held waters was the rule - not the exception.

[Linavitch]

I had a 'training' patrol where I was saving every five minutes while I got the hang of the manual targeting.

It's not really a game you can complete so I don't see the point of saving and reloading. As long as you learn from your mistakes for your next patrol.

And hey! Where would the 2nd patrol and your dead club go if you never died?

[CCIP]

DiD! DiD! DiD! :rock:

The only gameplay-related reason I'd reload a game is if I die in a completely stupid way that doesn't reflect reality - for example if I forget to put the game on pause when the phone rings and something kills me meanwhile, or if I accidentally run up high TC while heading into land (on a clear day). Otherwise, there's just no satisfaction from what you do get in the game.

I'm a naturally cautious, defensive player to start with - and a bit of a roleplayer at that. I'm really less interested in the tonnage than I am in having a tough run for it, and fighting to bring my sub back home after it.

[Jungman]

I play like Captain Bly sometimes. I do things no one would ever do in real life. I enjoy testing the gameplay mechanics to the extreme. Never completed a Career yet.

I ran out of torps and ammunition, the last ship was almost sunk...so I ordered Ramming Speed and ran over the small merchant!:rotfl: Whilst under heavy enemy fire.

Had 7 crew die and bleed to death after trying to make it back to port. (I notice if you put a crewman in the aft torpedo room he will recover health, else any men wounded at all will slowly die away. Even crew at 100 health with broken morale die which is kind of odd unless the captian took him down to make an example).

Back in port the M.P. grabbed me and threw me in jail!:arrgh!:

[JSF]

I save and ofton...:smug:........So, whats your points?

[zzodr]

I save and reload every time I miss with torp, deck gun, AA gun.. ;)

[Rilder]

I save and reload every time I miss with torp, deck gun, AA gun.. ;)

:rotfl:

Let me guess you've never gotten through a patrol then....:rotfl:(yea I know your joking probably)

After all Bernard's Law states that:

"A perfectly aimed deck gun, when fired at a target you need to sink, will always find a way to miss, even if this means defying the laws of physics."

I play DiD unless there was somehow a way I could of gotten home, like if I still had an engine, or was close enough to a home port to be able to get a tow. Never reloaded unless there was a CTD. Do save in-patrol but thats only till CTDs are sorted out and such.

[nova bomb]

Iron man!

I save before an attack in case I CTD.... That's it!

[zzodr]

Let me guess you've never gotten through a patrol then....:rotfl:(yea I know your joking probably)

Yeah true I was joking. I only save at waypoints, etc...I imagine it would be quite a challenge to hit a ship with a sub deck gun in real life, with the sub sitting low in the water and a rolling deck!

[Beery]

When I told them that I often suffered from dud torpedoes or a bad manual aiming I got the reply "well, always save before firing your tops, then you can reload if you miss"...

I'm with you. What's the point of these folks playing if they're going to cheat? It's like playing chess and taking back moves if your piece is taken. Playing that way it's impossible to learn anything from the game.

I just don't get it. I mean SH4 is not supposed to be about getting the perfect score. It's about experiencing the life of a submarine commander.

[Cakewalk]

Having never used manual TDC in SH3, I save fairly often in SH4, since I decided to start my career right off the bat on all realism settings (save for the tasty external camera). I need to gain more experience before I go without saving.

That being said, saving before firing each torpedo is kind of cheesy.

[Charos]

I embrace failure with open arms :D 100% Full difficulty all the way :up:


Patrol #1 Tambor (SS-199) USS Tautog

I Left Perl and deployed my spy as ordered all with only getting sound on one merchant.

Set up a search pattern 2 days later - made contact with 2 merchants.

Spotted 2*2ton fishing boats - surfaced and destroyed them with the deck gun.

Nothing else spotted up the coast for 24 hours.

Then I committed sub commander error #2 I returned to the area of the crime scene in the night.

Out of the inky back came an enemy AC making a B-Line right for me, his bombs were on the money.

Rear torpedo room bulkhead failed, rear decoy out of action, rear torpedo room flooded and Anti aircraft gun destroyed.

I had to stay surfaced at flank speed to keep my rear end from sinking and the damage took over 4 Hrs to repair, lucky for me it was only just getting light by the time repairs were completed.
Although the Anti air gun could not be repaired so I attempted a periscope depth dive.

I hesitantly attempted periscope depth at 4Knots - the planesmen couldnt hold her and I order BLOW BALLAST!.

On the surface i ran for my life making a B-line for Perl.

AIRCRAFT SPOTTED! Oh dear -- RIGHT FULL RUDDER!

We managed to steer clear of harms way.

I limped all the way back.


I made it back to Perl with a full load of torpedo's and most importantly no casualties. :smug:

The base commander beamed me a big grin when I was told that not only
was I the second most successfull submarine commander but Tautog was the
current leader for sunken vessels numbering two - albeit 2*2ton vessels. :lol:

[Volum]

I save usually before big attacks, and after a sucsessfull convoy raid. Also save if theres been a while since the last time.

The first time you experience a CTD after sinking a carrier and you forgot to save.......You make DAMN SURE there will never be a time number 2!

[SharpShin]

I also play on 100% and don't cheat to be successful. But the bottom line is having fun and some people can't legitimately sink ships and have to cheat to have fun. More power to them. But they shouldn't come here bragging about how they got 100k tons and it was easy lol.

[gonzlor]

I save before and after fights with large covoys and anywhere I've had a CTD before.

[Beery]

I also play on 100% and don't cheat to be successful. But the bottom line is having fun and some people can't legitimately sink ships and have to cheat to have fun. More power to them. But they shouldn't come here bragging about how they got 100k tons and it was easy lol.

Yeah really!

I agree with you though, people should play how they want. I was looking back on my earlier post and it seemed a bit elitist, so I have to concede that saving before every torpedo is a valid playstyle - just not one I understand.

[codmander]

noobish for sure only save after they sink :up:



Yesterday I played a multiplayer game of SH4 and chatted with a couple of guys about the general gameplay. What surprised me a bit was that obviously everybody except me regularly completes 100k tonnage patrols, sinking battleships and carriers left and right. When I told them that I often suffered from dud torpedoes or a bad manual aiming I got the reply "well, always save before firing your tops, then you can reload if you miss".

Errrr... this got me wondering a bit.

For me my failures are an essential part of the SH4 atmosphere. If I save/load for every attack until I get the perfect result, what's the motivation to play the game at all? Every patrol will yield the same success.

OTOH only when you miss a battleship or suffer from duds will you appreciate the feeling of triumph next time you actually hit a big target. And only if you complete a patrol with a meagre success you will come to appreciate a really good patrol.

[Dizoak]

Not me either, just the other day I set out on my 2nd patrol towards Honshu, intercepted an unescorted pair of passenger liners (more than 20,000 tons total im sure) and proceded to fire ALL my torpedoes, with nothing to show for it, then turned around and went home. Come to think of it, why did they give me command of a submarine?