View Full Version : SHIV: Please throw me a line as I'm not feeling the love
Guys, I like hi-fidelity combat sims and I have a lot of patience for studying and button-pushing. But weak documentation and dubious functionality is kicking my butt in SHIV (with patch). I do not want to toss this game so I'd appreciate an assist.
Having come from SUB COMMANDER and 688i, I'm only interested in manual TDC so my settings are realistic in that area. Please bear with me:
i. Sonar: After hours of frustration getting it to work at all, I have just read here that it requires greater than periscope depth to work at all and Home and End to rotate the cone. Is this correct? If so, at what depth can both sonar and attack periscope be deployed?
Once a sonar target is i/d-ed will the AI sonarman constantly give me updates in bearing and range or must I revisit the sonar station and ping it again manually?
There are no sonar or radar training missions in spite of what it says in the manual, right?
ii. TDC: I believe there is no automated target speed info available in spite of what it says in the manual. Speed has to be eyeballed or calculated in the nav map with bearing/time data I assume.
If the i/d manual ship views are all from abeam, how is it possible to i/d targets from astern?
What is the best way to acquire AOB? Does eyeballing it via the periscope and aligning the ship icon in the AOB guage to approximate relative heading/bearing to ownship suffice?
What does the little red "lock" switch with the tiny padlock do? Is it a game function that just leaves the periscope in the previous position after the player has visited another station or is there an actual sim function here? How is a target "locked" or "marked"?
Does the Position Keeper update itself after the red button is pressed or do all changes in relative bearings, AOB, speed need to be re-entered manually? And when should this button be used, exactly, in the TDC process?
iii. Radar: As with the sonar, I simply cannot get it to work in the training missions. Does the submarine have to be surfaced or will the radar operate at periscope depth? Again, as with the sonar, I cannot read the switchology legend in the manual because the type is too small so I do not know which switches are clickable or what they do. Shoddy.
iv. Ownship speed: Ordering flank from stationary in the Porpoise-class sub gets me 10 kts after about three minutes and little more after that. Were these boats really that slow or am I missing something simple here?
v. What realism settings would you recommend to ensure no computerised TDC assists but which might otherwise give a novice a break? And am I correct in assuming that the Weapons Officer Assistance and Noise Meter options in the manual's explanation of the realism menu have not been implemented?
I'd really appreciate some help here, guys. I wanted this sim to triumph on my hard drive but it's trying my patience ATM. I want to love it. I'm trying.
From my meager experience:
1. Sonar: It only works below 40 feet and not at periscope depth. I read somewhere that this is realistic (what happened in real life) but Most of the people think it is just a bug. It depends on where the sonar is located. The hydrophone seem to be located on a raised rod on the bow. I see something rotating there.
The hydrophone give continuous updates on position with a bit of an error margin. Sonar distance has to be pinged/requested.
2. Little red lock switch allows the hud to be hidden.
3. AOB is estimated/eyeballed. It takes practice is all.
4. Identifying the target takes practice as well. There is a icon in the top right that alows you to change the picture to a 45 degree and a head-on view. ( I think it is a head-on view.
5. The position keeper is toggled on/off. It uses the last variables you observed to do the continuous update. You may need to do a new update. I turn it off, then do new calculations, send to TDC and turn PK on.
6. Radar is bugged. People without radar equiped get radar sightings and the keys are not active.
7. Going from dead stop to full speed takes awhile. Do you expect to move 1000 tons of steel from 0 to to flank in less than a min? As well, you should have noticed surfacing takes a few min to get to maximum height. It's all inertia and in the case of running on surface, ballast setup. NOTE: I suspect as your crew gets more experience these will get faster.
i. Sonar: After hours of frustration getting it to work at all, I have just read here that it requires greater than periscope depth to work at all and Home and End to rotate the cone. Is this correct? If so, at what depth can both sonar and attack periscope be deployed?
Once a sonar target is i/d-ed will the AI sonarman constantly give me updates in bearing and range or must I revisit the sonar station and ping it again manually?
There are no sonar or radar training missions in spite of what it says in the manual, right?
GILDOR response: 1. Sonar: It only works below 40 feet and not at periscope depth. I read somewhere that this is realistic (what happened in real life) but Most of the people think it is just a bug. It depends on where the sonar is located. The hydrophone seem to be located on a raised rod on the bow. I see something rotating there.
The hydrophone give continuous updates on position with a bit of an error margin. Sonar distance has to be pinged/requested.
I'll try to add a few things to what Gildor has already written in response.
A further guide on sonar can be found here, second post (http://tinyurl.com/3dpbnp) on this page, post by vois2, 03-25-2007, 09:35 PM.
This may not be much of a help to you, OP, because you seem to be past that stage. However, I'm posting it here to maybe help others who find your thread.
As far as range finding by sonar, I am careful to use this as in a realistic situation use of active sonar is an invite for trouble from enemy warships. I am sure that as the modders tweak SH4 over time, use of active sonar to find range will become a much more deadly venture than it is at this time.
One thing to remember is that you don't need a lot of range updates for manual targeting. Just two findings spaced as much as three or five minutes apart can give you accurate positioning for an AOB 90 attack. The disappointing thing for me in SH4 is that I find the sonar man will give you deadly accurate ranges by hydrophone. I am suspicious that this is too arcade-like.
ii. TDC: I believe there is no automated target speed info available in spite of what it says in the manual. Speed has to be eyeballed or calculated in the nav map with bearing/time data I assume.
If the i/d manual ship views are all from abeam, how is it possible to i/d targets from astern?
What is the best way to acquire AOB? Does eyeballing it via the periscope and aligning the ship icon in the AOB guage to approximate relative heading/bearing to ownship suffice?
What does the little red "lock" switch with the tiny padlock do? Is it a game function that just leaves the periscope in the previous position after the player has visited another station or is there an actual sim function here? How is a target "locked" or "marked"?
Does the Position Keeper update itself after the red button is pressed or do all changes in relative bearings, AOB, speed need to be re-entered manually? And when should this button be used, exactly, in the TDC process?
GILDOR response: 2. Little red lock switch allows the hud to be hidden. The position keeper is toggled on/off. It uses the last variables you observed to do the continuous update. You may need to do a new update. I turn it off, then do new calculations, send to TDC and turn PK on.
Regarding the finding of target speed, here is a post (http://tinyurl.com/2dsrjb) which might be very helpful, post by vois2, 03-26-2007, 04:23 PM . You can use that chart for highly accurate speed estimates by following the directions on that chart.
Another useful conversion (as an aside for the reckoning of target position and speed) is that 5,000 yards is equal to 2.47 nautical miles (using Imperial system, of course). This can be rounded off at 5,000 yards = 2.5 nautical miles, since the SH4 map tool only provides accuracy to the nearest tenths place. (By using the 1 knot = 1 nautical mile per hours conversion, a target that travels 5,000 yards in 10 minutes of time, is moving at a rate of 15 knots.)
As Gildor asserts, AOB reckoning comes after a lot of practice and experience. Ironically, it's not so important for a deadly attack run. That is to say, your knowledge of the precise AOB at any given time isn't even that helpful since it is so inaccurate. What is much more important is to work out as best as you can do so, the track of the target and thus his heading. Then simply position your ownship's heading to be 90 degrees from this. As a single numerical example, if you determine that his heading is 222, then you should get your sub traveling in a heading of 312 on your attack run. This results in highly successful attack runs when within 700 yards or so (0.4 nautical miles or less).
Regarding the little red button, I haven't quite messed with it since I use manual targeting alone, but it's worth to test Gildor's HUD response.
iii. Radar: As with the sonar, I simply cannot get it to work in the training missions. Does the submarine have to be surfaced or will the radar operate at periscope depth? Again, as with the sonar, I cannot read the switchology legend in the manual because the type is too small so I do not know which switches are clickable or what they do. Shoddy.
GILDOR response: 6. Radar is bugged. People without radar equiped get radar sightings and the keys are not active.
Radar is completely useless in its current form. Major patch-ola magic needed here on this one. I plan to sail without radar in early war careers period, until the many problems are fixed. However, I did have SD radar installed, and my radar op called out to me, during my first couple of career attempts as I was diagnosing pairing sonar readings with radar readings and to determine whether scaling on the nav map was implemented correctly by the devs. (Scaling is OK on the nav map, by the way.)
v. What realism settings would you recommend to ensure no computerised TDC assists but which might otherwise give a novice a break? And am I correct in assuming that the Weapons Officer Assistance and Noise Meter options in the manual's explanation of the realism menu have not been implemented?
I'd really appreciate some help here, guys.
Based on where you are at the moment as discerned from your writing, you are very advanced. I think you should (when starting the game itself) choose the "Realistic" setting. But go ahead and give yourself external cam and map updates (deselect those). This will allow you to test out your mettle of mind and good positioning estimates. Please note, before sailing on your first patrol, while in "the office" with the bookshelf, you will again need to choose "Realistic" and deselect those two again, or it won't provide that for you on that patrol. (Another bug.)
You've done a lot of reading from the manual, which is great from the learner perspective, but unfortunate because the manual is so poorly documented. It's a nightmare for beginning sub simmers!
Two excellent responses, many thanks, guys. And this caliber of information will help other relative beginners who aspire to realism.
One comment, you may wish to [edit] the title of your original post. The current title doesn't have a name "sounding" like it would ask for or receive help for newbies and medium players. (Instead, it sounds sort of like a complaint, so many may skip over it.) Just my 2 cents. Thanks.
One comment, you may wish to [edit] the title of your original post. The current title doesn't have a name "sounding" like it would ask for or receive help for newbies and medium players. (Instead, it sounds sort of like a complaint, so many may skip over it.) Just my 2 cents. Thanks.
Sorry but I cannot edit the title; I tried. Let's hope people will explore the thread in spite of the flippant-sounding header. Certainly the gouge so far has been great.
Kapitan_Phillips
03-27-07, 02:22 AM
I thought the spinning pylon on the bow was the radar, and the two balls under the keel was the sonar :hmm:
NefariousKoel
03-27-07, 02:31 AM
I thought the spinning pylon on the bow was the radar, and the two balls under the keel was the sonar :hmm:
Surface (nav) radar and sonar respectively. Yep.
I won't mention the "two balls under the keel" thing. Oh, wait, I just did.:p
I thought the spinning pylon on the bow was the radar, and the two balls under the keel was the sonar :hmm:
Surface (nav) radar and sonar respectively. Yep.
I won't mention the "two balls under the keel" thing. Oh, wait, I just did.:p
Ah well, that explains why there seem to be a blind spot for surface radar if that pylon on the bow is in fact the radar mast. The subs sail is blocking a significant protion of the radar view. Why didnt they put it on a mast on the sail? Not as high as the perescope mind you so you dont get a surface breach when submerged.
Snowman999
03-27-07, 06:08 PM
[quote=Kapitan_Phillips]I thought the spinning pylon on the bow was the radar, and the two balls under the keel was the sonar :hmm:
Surface (nav) radar and sonar respectively. Yep.
No. The hydrophone, in later mods, is topside on the bow. The sound heads (passive) always are on the underside, either side of the keel. There is never any radar on the bow. That would be pretty dumb.
See http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/sonar/chap1.htm#1A for picture snad explainations.
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