View Full Version : Is SH4 merely a rehash of SH3?
...or is it just me?
I was playing the game this afternoon and I suddenly got a strong sense that I was just playing a graphical update to SH3. Everything seems so similar, only this time it doesn't play as smoothly and there are bugs galore - plus for some reason the SH4 graphics actually look worse than SH3 on my graphics card. I realise this won't matter to players who have been waiting for a US sub sim in particular, but personally I don't care if my sub is American or German.
So now I'm trying to figure out whether to put time and effort into this game, or whether to just roll out SH3 again, load up all the good mods and take to the seas for Germany. After all, with RUb (or one of the other major mods) and SH3 Commander SH3 has more features and (in my opinion) is still better than SH4.
What do others think? Is anyone getting the same feeling?
Jimbuna
03-25-07, 01:30 PM
I agree with you matey.....I suppose it's the usual wait for a patch for the second 'half baked potato' :hmm: :arrgh!:
Well, both games cover submarine operations in WW2, it's not as if SH4 is something completely different fromn SH3. I, so far, tremendously enjoy the change from the Atlantic to the Pacific theatre of war.
SH4 on my system looks great (despite the lack of FSAA), the campaign is much improved with more diverse missions and greatly improved briefings, we get animated crews on the ships an survivors, improved underwater scenery, and interesting new features like the radio (although not fully implemented yet).
For me the main reason to buy SH4 were not distinctive improvements compared to SH3 but mainly the switch to a theater I've not visited since Silent Service 2.
sandbag69
03-25-07, 01:52 PM
...or is it just me?
I was playing the game this afternoon and I suddenly got a strong sense that I was just playing a graphical update to SH3. Everything seems so similar, only this time it doesn't play as smoothly and there are bugs galore - plus for some reason the SH4 graphics actually look worse than SH3 on my graphics card. I realise this won't matter to players who have been waiting for a US sub sim in particular, but personally I don't care if my sub is American or German.
So now I'm trying to figure out whether to put time and effort into this game, or whether to just roll out SH3 again, load up all the good mods and take to the seas for Germany. After all, with RUb (or one of the other major mods) and SH3 Commander SH3 has more features and (in my opinion) is still better than SH4.
What do others think? Is anyone getting the same feeling?
of course its an upgraded SH3 set in the Pacific. What did u expect Sh4 to be Nuke powered subs firing Trident missiles.
John Channing
03-25-07, 02:07 PM
I think it is fantastic, some teething troubles, but a worthy successor to Silent Hunter 3.
JCC
It's the same engine, thus that feeling.
For me, a whole slew of new features make it entirely worthwhile. While SHIII with mods is still a far more polished experience, SHIV already stands out thanks to a whole set of crucial improvements, and it has a far better potential than SHIII in the long run.
All in all, it's a much better game and a much better platform to improve on than stock SHIII.
AirborneTD
03-25-07, 02:29 PM
All in all, it's a much better game and a much better platform to improve on than stock SHIII.
Agree completely. I'm having a blast with this sim. Great to be back in the Pacific.
I have the same feeling Beery.
After playing a lot of SH IV last night and having had enough of it, I started another patrol in my trusted U-100. I just love the GWX epansion SH III. What a great game that is!
But:
SH IV is a very nice sim actually, albeit in half finished state, but SH III was just like that (maybe even worse!) There is indeed a lot of work to be done for this baby to equal its predecessor. It does have potential however; I'm sure that in a couple of months this baby will be so heavily modded/patched that it will rock...then you have the luxury of having the freedom of choosing your own theatre....Pacific or Atlantic tonight? What a luxury problem..
Although I will be playing a lot of SH IV the coming weeks/months, I doubt the game will capture me the way SH III did; few if any game ever will.
1mPHUNit0
03-25-07, 03:12 PM
I have the same feeling Beery.
3 missions consecutive....3 time the same patrol zone.
Then i think no dynamic campain
Implosion of the boat at 40m then no simulation at all
Sonar done ......all we know
Periscope and dials.....all we know
Crew managemant.....all we know
Map and officials....all we know
Were it's better than sh3?
Were it's more playabile?
Immacolata
03-25-07, 04:16 PM
I find it similiar and perhaps that is mostly due to the sound recycling. New diesel and electro sounds would REALLY have cut the mustard. You listen to that all day long.
Apart from that I find the change of scenery and scope of the conflict very entertaining. The whole theatre is just more interesting. To me, it became rather dull to sink cargo tin cans in the atlantic. IT was a brave struggle, but in the end you knew what happened :)
The variety in SH4 is bigger and I enjoy the mix of missions and "tonnage war". Im also VERY impressed by the ship models this time. And I love the waves. They are beautiful.
In the end, you move submarines around to sink world war 2 ships. There _IS_ a limit to the variation you can do. Perhaps too much SH3 make you feel that SH4 is already too much :)
SH4 on my system looks great (despite the lack of FSAA), the campaign is much improved with more diverse missions and greatly improved briefings, we get animated crews on the ships an survivors, improved underwater scenery, and interesting new features like the radio (although not fully implemented yet)...
But the major mods to SH3 brought us more diverse missions, even more improved briefings, more realistic underwater scenery and a better radio mod, not to mention ultra-realistic flotillas, complete freedom to start on any date from 1939 to 1945 (which SH4 doesn't have), monthly news reports (which SH4 doesn't have), and all the other extra features that SH3 Commander brought to the game - few of which SH4 has.
Without all the mods that were part of SH3 I'm just getting the feeling that I'm playing the same sim, but somehow less satisfying.
ReM is right though - after the devs finish patching it and after the community has modded it I'm sure it will be a worthy successor to SH3. I just hope something turns up to really make it shine like Jaesen Jones' SH3 Commander did for SH3.
I don't think you've dug quite deep enough yet. SH4 DOES have a lot of features that SHIII could only dream of - it's to the credit of the modders that creative workarounds were made for SHIII to make up for the lack of some of the features. SHIV, by comparison, is 'the real deal' - there is a lot more flexibility here, just that not all of it is being used optimally.
I say just play it as its own game. Up to you, really. I think you'll agree that I'm not the least knowledgeable SH3 player around - and it's my humble view that SHIV is a step forward - not a full step, but a step nonetheless.
What is a bit of a shame is that not all of the improvements in SHIV have really been used to the devs to their full potential and that dulls the good feel of it somewhat, along with noted bugs.
Rykaird
03-25-07, 07:33 PM
So I've been fairly critical of SHIV and in particular the almost total removal of interaction with the equipment and crew, forcing complete reliance on the interface.
I have a high end system so I can run everything maxed, and in SHIV's defence I must say that this thing is beautiful. The ocean is just fantastic looking, and the various light effects are stunning. For example, the way the fire from a sinking ship plays off the waves at night is magic.
Despite its beauty, I've parked the game and gone back to the Atlantic. I just have too many crashes and weird bugs, and the frustration isn't worth it. Once its stable I'll come back.
This game may turn out to be great - I think its too early to call right now. In the meantime, Fat Boy Winston and I have some unfinished business.
You can't take my remarks here terribly serious since I haven't played SH4 yet (and won't be til I get a better system) but it looks to me as if SH4 hasn't added anything to the game engine, graphics aside, that couldn't have been done by a dedicated modding team with an SH3 SDK.
Most of the things that sound really refreshing were mod ideas from the early days of SH3 before we figured out that we couldn't change the hard code. Automated crew management, more intersting dynamic campaign, etc. So far the non-Pacific related changes seem as though they are lost patches for SH3. Then theres the fact that theres alot of stock SH3 features actually missing.
Its all a bit weird and confusing.:doh:
So I've been fairly critical of SHIV and in particular the almost total removal of interaction with the equipment and crew, forcing complete reliance on the interface...
When playing during the last 24 hours I missed being able to interact purely via the mouse in 3D. I was hoping that I just hadn't found the way to do it yet. If we have to interact purely via interface buttons I'm going to be really disappointed.
Iron Budokan
03-25-07, 08:43 PM
Sad to say, Beery, you're gonna be disappointed. (I was, too.) You can't interact via the 3d like you could in the control room in SH3. You gotta use the icons in SH4.... :cry:
Madox58
03-25-07, 08:52 PM
Gentlemen! Give us time!!!
I to hate alot of things, but keep digging to
correct what needs corrected.
We will fix this beast!!!
And if the GWX team comes at it? :huh:
God help us all!
We'll all be divorced, shunned,
and locked away in some sleazy motel Hell!
Playing our game a muttering
"I just need a few more fathoms Scotty!!!"
:rotfl: :rotfl:
of course its an upgraded SH3 set in the Pacific. What did u expect Sh4 to be Nuke powered subs firing Trident missiles.
Hehe, that would have REALLY been disappointing. No, what I expected was an upgrade to SH3 that went a bit beyond graphics and which added many more of the sorts of things the mod community did for SH3. But SH4 is not that. Basically, as far as I can see so far, SH4 is SH3 with improved graphics, with an expanded gramophone giving a sort of radiomod/newsmod functionality that the mod community gave to SH3 and without the 3D compartment interface that came as standard in SH3.
I just feel the game should have been more. But it's first impressions right now, and SH3 was also a bit of a pig that needed some heavy-duty lipstick applied to it. So we'll see what the future brings.
Right now, SH4 in career mode is endlessly frustrating due to bugs and inconsistencies and inaccuracies.
Notice I said "right now" and I have limited my critique to "career mode" only.
I know much of this will be fixed by patches and by the modders around here. I have to say that I cringe each time I read of someone saying they are going back to SH3, because we need our best minds at work to get SH4 running with accuracy. It's not any of our jobs, but it must be our passion as we keep coming back for more sub sims.
Ironically, the devs right now need more interaction and input from the expert core hard simmers, not less. You can see them responding to issues in the threads. I hate to see the best minds running away. (I am not claiming this is happening a lot, but a mind is a terrible thing to lose...)
JackChen
03-26-07, 04:43 AM
Well, perhaps SH4 would have been better as an expansion to SH3 so that you can jolly well link the Atlantic to the Pacific.
Maybe you will see that in SH5 - World War II (the entire world) plus you may even see fish this time and whales that you have to avoid ramming into.
of course its an upgraded SH3 set in the Pacific. What did u expect Sh4 to be Nuke powered subs firing Trident missiles.
Hehe, that would have REALLY been disappointing. No, what I expected was an upgrade to SH3 that went a bit beyond graphics and which added many more of the sorts of things the mod community did for SH3. But SH4 is not that. Basically, as far as I can see so far, SH4 is SH3 with improved graphics, with an expanded gramophone giving a sort of radiomod/newsmod functionality that the mod community gave to SH3 and without the 3D compartment interface that came as standard in SH3.
I just feel the game should have been more. But it's first impressions right now, and SH3 was also a bit of a pig that needed some heavy-duty lipstick applied to it. So we'll see what the future brings.
Yours is an unpopular viewpoint with many people here, and I'm surprised so far no one has called you a whiner/moaner/hater or whatever.
SH4 is a modified SH3 - but then again, it was basically sold as that. The problem is for anyone who wanted a simulation, SH4 is a regression - if you're primarily interested in graphics then I guess for a week or two you'll be happy (and then be bored and off to the next thing).
I think the devs missed a trick to build on SH3 (and the mods of course) and in the end took the "easy" graphical update while ignoring the more subtle and complex realism features.
However, as I look around SH4 I do see some things that imply that the underlying code has the relevant hooks to make lots of things work, but they are not working at the moment.
For example, in the 3D view, you can click on the some of the crew - the Chief Engineer and Navigator will look at you if you click on them. You can jump into the shoes of the Helmsman, the Sonar and the Radar guys. The question is, can we make use of these bits, will they need to be enabled in a patch, can they be modded.... Lots of unknown elements.
There's also files implying more detailed malfunction & damage modelling (e.g. Periscope misalignment) and also injuries to the crew (broken arms, "It's just a scratch").
So there was/is some intent in SH4 to bring more meaningful features to the game - will we see them operable one day or not?
The encrypted .exe will make any code hacking difficult so we're reliant on the devs helping out...
r.
1mPHUNit0
03-26-07, 07:16 AM
Totally incomplete and no sdk ....
Yours is an unpopular viewpoint with many people here, and I'm surprised so far no one has called you a whiner/moaner/hater or whatever.
Considering the work I've done modding SH3 it's going to be hard for anyone to make me seem like just a spoiler. What I'm really trying to do is figure out for myself whether I want to go through that hassle again for SH4.
Immacolata
03-26-07, 01:39 PM
It is a surefire thing that without extensive modding SHIV will be played and forgotten by many of us in a month. I can't blame people really, SHIV has a budget feel over it in its current state of reused things. Its still fun however, at least for someone who didnt spend 1000s of hours poring over the files SH3 to make it better.
I guess that patching will decide this more than anything.
Spin Doctor
03-26-07, 02:54 PM
of course its an upgraded SH3 set in the Pacific. What did u expect Sh4 to be Nuke powered subs firing Trident missiles.
Hehe, that would have REALLY been disappointing. No, what I expected was an upgrade to SH3 that went a bit beyond graphics and which added many more of the sorts of things the mod community did for SH3. But SH4 is not that. Basically, as far as I can see so far, SH4 is SH3 with improved graphics, with an expanded gramophone giving a sort of radiomod/newsmod functionality that the mod community gave to SH3 and without the 3D compartment interface that came as standard in SH3.
I just feel the game should have been more. But it's first impressions right now, and SH3 was also a bit of a pig that needed some heavy-duty lipstick applied to it. So we'll see what the future brings.
Yours is an unpopular viewpoint with many people here, and I'm surprised so far no one has called you a whiner/moaner/hater or whatever.... <snip>
r.
Since Beery is one of the original of the great SH3 modders, I think he's more than entitled and qualified to make whatever comment he wants on the state of SH4.
Also since most people seem to be waiting with baited breath for the modders to fix this new sim, it's not a foregone conclusion that those who are able have either the time or desire to do the same with SH4. We're talking literally years of research and work going into building the GWX mod.
I think that if you're expecting the same for SH4, it's best not to bite the hand that feeds you.
Ducimus
03-26-07, 03:14 PM
The biggest detractor is that it used SH3's as a base. Theres ALOT of leftover misc stuff from SH3 in it. This however, is a good thing in terms of modding.
Offhand i suspect the bulk of the new stuff lays in the subs themselves, damage/crew controls,TDC, and campaign.
AVGWarhawk
03-26-07, 03:41 PM
Yours is an unpopular viewpoint with many people here, and I'm surprised so far no one has called you a whiner/moaner/hater or whatever.
Considering the work I've done modding SH3 it's going to be hard for anyone to make me seem like just a spoiler. What I'm really trying to do is figure out for myself whether I want to go through that hassle again for SH4.
You can look at it this way, you know how the engine works and the thought behind each file. You got this from working the SH3 mods. So you have half the issue beat already. I do not believe the project will be as big as you are thinking. But, hey, I'm whining:cry: please please please consider it;)
Yours is an unpopular viewpoint with many people here, and I'm surprised so far no one has called you a whiner/moaner/hater or whatever.
Considering the work I've done modding SH3 it's going to be hard for anyone to make me seem like just a spoiler. What I'm really trying to do is figure out for myself whether I want to go through that hassle again for SH4.
Exactly - if not for your illustrious modding efforts of several sims, I suspect you would have come in for a bit of a bashing :)
I can understand your position entirely - there isn't a great deal to really get a person excited from the simulation perspective. I hope the seemingly unimplemented parts of the game can be activated through a patch (and ideally even made to work well without modding) but SH2, 3 and now 4 have had so many issues, you just begin to assume the worst.
r.
StandingCow
03-26-07, 04:23 PM
Updated engine. And ya know what, I am very happy with an updated SH3, it was and still is a great game. Now that they have better graphics its that much better imo.
If sales keep up the way they are, they may make enough money to make SH5 with an all new engine. Who knows. :D
I'm sure there will be an SH5. I just wish that when they released a game like this they'd put as much effort into completing the software as they put into making the manual. I was very impressed with the manual which seems a lot bigger than SH3's, but the software was like deja-vu - the same annoying bugs that were in SH3.
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